Verin; An Objective Analysis.

[mnwhiterose]

Verin has always fascinated me.  If I didn't know any better, I would say that she is one of the Forsaken who is trying to turn her life around.  Either that, or ensure that Rand reaches TG so that the DO can kill him.  Again, no proof, and I know better. 

 

But, perhaps she knows better than anyone that prophecies can do more harm than help, especially when talking about a savior of the people.  Once a savior is chosen, everything in that person's life is made to fit the prophecy and that person is guided through the prophecy. I think that Verin is trying to prevent that from happening.  If Rand is truly the Dragon Reborn (in her mind), then everything that is supposed to come true will come true, without the help of her meddling Sisters.  Perhaps she feels that with the meddling of her Sisters, TG is coming closer than it should.

 

I think she also believes that the Three Oaths are more of a hinderance than helpful. Maybe it is good for younger Aes Sedai, who really don't know what they are doing.  Or Aes Sedai with agendas that are too dangerous to the Tower as a whole, and they need to be bound.  But, for those who have seen the world and seen the patterns, such as herself and Cadsuane (not saying that Cadsuane is free from any Oaths, or that Verin is) should not be restricted by as many Oaths.  And perhaps she sees the TR girls (Nynaeve & Egwene, and I'll include Elayne in this as well since they all have the same mentality) as having the same views as herself, albeit untried.  She may decide to take them under her wing at some point and "continue their education" so to speak in terms of seeing the bigger picture.

 

*whew* that's the most I've written in a long time outside of work. 

[Jethro]

Perhaps she feels that with the meddling of her Sisters, TG is coming closer than it should.

 

Or, maybe she is like Siuan, thinking that the Ta'veren should be allowed to "run free" so events can be twisted onto the right paths. I think she feels that the Aes Sedai will stop Rand making the necessary preparements if they get their claws into him too deep. Maybe she wants to observe Ta'veren at work without her Sisters influencing it, so she can see Ta'veren in its "natural" form, for want of a better word.

[mnwhiterose]

"We are now observing the male ta'veren in his natural habitat.  Let's see how he reacts to the presence of a known Darkfriend..."

 

Sorry - Brown moment. I have those.

[benr]

I disagree on this one.  I think Verin has some very specific goals in mind, and she is trying to influence everyone that has any possible interaction with her plans to further her aims.  The maddening thing is that I haven't been able to figure out what those plans are, despite some good logic from many posters.  Grrrr.

[Casco]

Thats the most exiting thing about Verin, we dont know anything about the reason for her planning in the first place. She started 70 years ago and should not have a clue about the birth of the dragon reborn, at least not anything about his birth and deeds. Still she work with the plan...the plan to do what?? Thats the mystery.

[naxxan]

Dark Justice beat me to it with Verin needing Rand alive until his time to die, but I'd like to go from there.  Verin clearly has a distinct goal in mind, and I'm of a mind that is has to do with the Dragon Reborn, but not necessarily Rand.  Follow me here for a minute, everyone now knows Rand is the Dragon Reborn but before he proclaimed himself no one knew the Dragon Reborn would be Rand.  Quite a few of the false Dragons came from or had direct business with Far Madding.  If Verin has dedicated herself to ensuring that the Dragon Reborn be around at a specific time for the express purpose of dying then I think this would explain a few of the conflicting thoughts and actions she has concerning Rand. (i.e. screwing with Aes Sedai authority over him but helping them find it in their hearts to protect him until TG, and planning ahead just how many sisters would be needed to shield and gentle him, after TG, if he lives, I would guess)  Also, this line of thought could explain Verin's warrant in Far Madding and last serious mistake by giving Far Madding too much importance.

[rhadamanthus]

I think she also believes that the Three Oaths are more of a hinderance than helpful. Maybe it is good for younger Aes Sedai, who really don't know what they are doing.  Or Aes Sedai with agendas that are too dangerous to the Tower as a whole, and they need to be bound.  But, for those who have seen the world and seen the patterns, such as herself and Cadsuane (not saying that Cadsuane is free from any Oaths, or that Verin is) should not be restricted by as many Oaths.  And perhaps she sees the TR girls (Nynaeve & Egwene, and I'll include Elayne in this as well since they all have the same mentality) as having the same views as herself, albeit untried.  She may decide to take them under her wing at some point and "continue their education" so to speak in terms of seeing the bigger picture.

 

Verin gives a very forceful speech on the value and necessity of the three oaths in tDR.  Not sure if that means much, but it's there.

[Dark Justice]

Dark Justice beat me to it with Verin needing Rand alive until his time to die, but I'd like to go from there.  Verin clearly has a distinct goal in mind, and I'm of a mind that is has to do with the Dragon Reborn, but not necessarily Rand.  Follow me here for a minute, everyone now knows Rand is the Dragon Reborn but before he proclaimed himself no one knew the Dragon Reborn would be Rand.  Quite a few of the false Dragons came from or had direct business with Far Madding.  If Verin has dedicated herself to ensuring that the Dragon Reborn be around at a specific time for the express purpose of dying then I think this would explain a few of the conflicting thoughts and actions she has concerning Rand. (i.e. screwing with Aes Sedai authority over him but helping them find it in their hearts to protect him until TG, and planning ahead just how many sisters would be needed to shield and gentle him, after TG, if he lives, I would guess)  Also, this line of thought could explain Verin's warrant in Far Madding and last serious mistake by giving Far Madding too much importance.

 

Im sorry, but I dont really understand what you are trying to say.. Your conclution is? Id like to understand, but I cant really get it. Sorry.

[naxxan]

Dark Justice...  Sorry, I don't separate my thoughts very well. 

 

I'm really going after two thoughts that tie in together for me at least.  First is that Verin's goal, from what has been stated in her pov, was that she had to see the Dragon Reborn stay alive long enough to die at a specific time.  By this point in the story, Rand Al'Thor and the Dragon Reborn are one in the same, but a decade ago or seven or whenever Verin started down this path she is on, it was all speculation as to who it would be.  Verin must ensure the death of the Dragon Reborn, the Dragon Reborn is Rand, Verin must ensure that Rand dies.  Kind of a=b, c=b , but a doesn't equal c.  I think she started tagging along so that she could be sure for herself that he really was the DR, and sort out where the other two fit into the story she knows so well.  More trying to avoid a serious mistake again than anything else.

 

My second thought was playing a far backup to the first.  Raolin Darksbane and Yurian Stonebow were from the equivalent of Far Madding, Guaire Amalasan conqured Far Madding, and Gorin Rogad, before Rand made it official, was in Illian no too far from Far Madding.  Verin has her warrant there too, so I theorized whatever crime she committed could have been done to further this goal of hers regarding the DR.  Since it wasn't for Rand and therefore not the real DR this act would neatly tie up the last serious mistake thing too.

 

All of the examples I gave for Verin's meddling and musings were to illustrate her thoughts towards handling the DR vs. handling Rand.  Aes Sedai cannot have too much control over the DR or they might not let him properly fulfill prophecy, but as far as how many sisters would be needed to shield and gentle Rand, well we all know Verin is a planner.

 

I hope this clears up what I was trying to say, I'm still pretty new to trying to express these fanciful ideas I gets as I does my readin.

[Dark Justice]

hehe.. no worries. Its sometimes a good idea to read through your post before posting. Somtimes I just write my thoughts, and trust me, nobody understands those but me....

[naxxan]

Yeah, that's just the thing.  I did read through, and of course it made sense to me.

[Dark Justice]

well.. then it could just be me...  ;)

[Azul]

while re reading the books again the puzzle of this really started to bug me and i had a few thoughts.

 

What if Verin is/was being used?

 

the apparent lie started the idea and events in 'The Dragon Reborn" began to fuel it.  My theory is that perhaps Lanfear was/is using Verin without her even being aware of it.  She could likely have used a form of compulsion and perhaps some other lost weaves that effect Verin's memories.  so here is a short breakdown of the whens and whys

 

- the lie  (moraine sent me) Lanfear could have disgusied herself as Moraine and/or just made Verin believe Moraine had told her to come.  why?  to keep a closer tie to Perrin and to sow distrust of AS with Perrin and/or Rand if they caught up.  Info on the portal stones could have also been given to her as well by lanfear

 

- Egwene sees someone in a white dress she thinks is a novice or accepted when going to see Verin.  This could very well have been Lanfear going there as well.  Verin gives the ring but not the notes to Egwene (a implanted suggestion by lanfear?) Its very likely that Lanfear knew of her test to be raised to accepted that night and that the two ter'angreal would react to each other and hoped it would kill or burn out Egwene.  Since Egwene survives Lanfear instead places clues of Tear and leads the girls to them by appearing as Else.  She obviously expected Egwene when she talked to her disguised as the old lady in the Heart of the Stone when Egwene first used the ring.

 

- Verin absentmindedness could be chalked up to being a normal brown or her switch from being very focused and insightful to being completely scatter brained  could be the resulted of confusion caused by her mind/memories being tamptered with.

 

 

As i'm only on re reading the dragon reborn at the moment you'll have to forgive me after this point as i have forgotten more than i remember of the rest of the books :).  anyway  Verin likely continues to act mostly on her true nature after Lanfear is killed and then later put in the mindtrap so her own plotting is likely shuffled aside.  As for her other odd behavior of using compulsion and considering poisoning another sister its very possible some lingering 'suggestion' left by lanfear to  help or protect Rand continue to influence her.

 

 

anyway just a idea that has been burning in me that i needed to share :)  If its all gibberish excuse me.  I blame it on lack of sleep from being caught up in reading the books again.

 

 

 

 

[Shard]

As much as it would fit Lanfear's character to manipulate people with disguises I think it comes down to Verin just twisting the truth enough in some bizzare way to make the statement of "Moraine sent me".

 

This thread though I think is more on Verin's motives on why she is doing what she is doing. I don't think she is BA but she uses some shady methods (her version of compulsion seems pretty Dark Side of her to do).

[naxxan]

I don't think Verin was compulsed.  Just about anything could be possible with how little we know, but compulsion never sat with me.  Like I said earlier in this thread, I feel Verin has some ulterior motive regarding the Dragon Reborn.  We know she has to see him alive to die at a specific time but it's never said if that is TG or not.  I mention the DR specifically  and not Rand directly because if Verin has been at this for a while and backed just some man who could channel or one who convinced her he could, that could explain her last serious mistake and intense interest in Rand early on in the story.

[Raistlin]

Couple questions.

 

1. How old is Verin???

2. How long have the AS been using the oath rod?

3. Was Verin ever really noticed much in the tower cause she is a brown?

[Shard]

1) At least a 100 I believe, probably close to 120

2) 3000 years

3) And yes.

[naxxan]

1) At least a 100 I believe, probably close to 120

 

I thought she was around twice that, supposedly.

[Shard]

It was just a guess from what I can remember. She had a mission that started 70 years ago, I figure that means after shes' at least hit puberty and such. I'm sure she's over a hundred at least.

[naxxan]

When it was talked about Suian being raised young IIRC they commented that a woman needed the shawl 100 years before being eligible for a sitter position and 150 for amyrlin.  To have ages like that thrown about willy nilly and then take comments on how Verin really shows her age...

 

Also, I thought it was Verin's last mistake that was 70 years ago.  I don't remember any time line for her mission.

[Luckers]

1. How old is Verin???

 

Merana's speculations give us a bracket answer to this. She was Aes Sedai 10 years when Alana was born, prior to that she spent 11 years as novice and accepted, and depending on when she went to the Tower she would have been 14 to 18 years of Age. Alanna was Accepted in New Spring, twenty years prior. We do not know how old she was then--it would have ranged between 19 and 28.

 

So, Merana at the time of her thinking that (twenty years after New Spring) would have been between 74 and 87. She thinks at that same time that Verin is as much older than she as she is older than Alanna.

 

Now, at that time in the books we do not know Alanna's exact age--depending on when she approached the Tower, and how long it took her to gain the shawl she is at the time of the story between 44 and 58.

 

Which means that based on Merana's comments we know that Verin is at the youngest 90, and and at the oldest, 130.

 

We can refine that further, however. Verin states that she has been planning something for seventy years. Merana adds that Verin spent 11 years as a novice/accepted. As such we can raise the lower a bit--you have to be at least 12 to be trained at the Tower, and that requires you be a sparker. Verin was not, furthermore she had a fiance.

 

 

So, endgame we can assume that Verin was between 16 and 18 when she approached the Tower, and thus she is currently somewhere between 97 and 130.

 

My guess is definately closer to 130.

[DukeBob]

As I was catching up on this thread, a couple possible theories came to mind.

 

1. Verin is definitely a Brown Ajah. She is old enough that she may have even had access to the 13th Depository at one time. This would give her a pretty good idea how much Aes Sedai can screw things up when they try to get too involved. (Case in point, Arther Hawkwing) How does the saying go, you either learn from history or end up repeating it.

 

2. In the earlier books I got the idea that Verin wanted to be around the ta'veren to study them. (True to a Brown disposition.) The best way to study something is to eliminate all outside influences and variation and watch what happens.

 

 

[mb]

How does the saying go, you either learn from history or end up repeating it.

I recall two related sayings:

-"Learn from history less you repeat it"

-"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

 

[Paradox]

We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future.

;)

[Shard]

We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future.

;)

 

But if we don't learn from our past mistakes how will we learn?

 

Verin seems to have learned from her "Last mistake" 70 years ago.