Did Verin Lie?

[Gracel]

I think that covers all options. If anyone has any other theories, let's hear them. For an 11 page discussion of the definition of "sent," see the post titled "Questions about Moiraine."

[moroten]

This topic has been discussed way too many times. The common consensus is that she didnt lie but that she had convinced herself that by Moiraines actions she was forced to follow Ingtar. What Verin believs is the truth is the truth she tells even if it isnt true at all.

 

-Moroten

[Alghar Khan]

The common consensus is wrong. There are no witches to burn. The earth revolves around the sun. There is no master race. Humans and monkeys have common ancestors.

 

Moiraine never sent Verin anywhere. Verin is a smart woman, she comprehends what has been said (and what wasn't). Verin knows that Moiraine never sent her anywhere. Verin went anyway. Verin lied.

 

VERIN LIED!

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Just keep saying it as loud as you can, Alghar.  Maybe stick your fingers in your ears too.  Tack a "lalalalala" on the end.

;D

 

 

[metria31183]

Moiraine did say that she wished someone could watch over the boys since she couldn't be there herself.  I believe is was in Chapter 7 of The Great Hunt.  I can't find the exact quote.  I think is plausible to believe that Verin used that statement by Moiraine to convince herself that Moiraine was sending her to follow Ingtar.

[Nightstrike]

Moiraine did say that she wished someone could watch over the boys since she couldn't be there herself.  I believe is was in Chapter 7 of The Great Hunt.  I can't find the exact quote.  I think is plausible to believe that Verin used that statement by Moiraine to convince herself that Moiraine was sending her to follow Ingtar.

I skimmed that chapter, and did not find her saying that. I did find this:

Moiraine gave the Brown sister a wry look. Another danger confronts us, and she sounds as if it is a puzzle in a book. Light, the Browns truly are not aware of the world at all. "Then we must find the dagger, Sister. Agelmar is sending men to hunt those who took the Horn and slew his oathmen, the same who took the dagger. If one is found, the other will be.

That is not to send Verin after Rand. Rand and company departed (soon after that quote took place) in one direction. All the sisters, including Verin, Moiraine, Siuan and Liandrin went in another direction, some time after that - towards Tar Valon. After a while, Moiraine went after Rand, shortly after that Liandrin went too ("in her heels"). And some time (not shortly, since it's not mentioned as "in the heels", like with Liandrin) after that, Verin went too. The timing of these events means that Moiraine couldn't have sent Verin.

 

 

 

[Nightstrike]

The exact quote is:

Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar. She thought you might need me.

 

[metria31183]

Moiraine did say that she wished someone could watch over the boys since she couldn't be there herself.  I believe is was in Chapter 7 of The Great Hunt.  I can't find the exact quote.  I think is plausible to believe that Verin used that statement by Moiraine to convince herself that Moiraine was sending her to follow Ingtar.

I skimmed that chapter, and did not find her saying that. I did find this:

Moiraine gave the Brown sister a wry look. Another danger confronts us, and she sounds as if it is a puzzle in a book. Light, the Browns truly are not aware of the world at all. "Then we must find the dagger, Sister. Agelmar is sending men to hunt those who took the Horn and slew his oathmen, the same who took the dagger. If one is found, the other will be.

That is not to send Verin after Rand. Rand and company departed (soon after that quote took place) in one direction. All the sisters, including Verin, Moiraine, Siuan and Liandrin went in another direction, some time after that - towards Tar Valon. After a while, Moiraine went after Rand, shortly after that Liandrin went too ("in her heels"). And some time (not shortly, since it's not mentioned as "in the heels", like with Liandrin) after that, Verin went too. The timing of these events means that Moiraine couldn't have sent Verin.

 

 

 

 

I was probably wrong about the chapter, but I remember reading that Moiraine did make a comment about wanting someone to watch over the boys in front of Verin.  I just can't remember where.  Also, I'm not sure if it says they all went in the same direction.  I think it might have implied that Liandrin was following Moiraine, but I don't think Verin's direction was specifically stated.  I don't have the book in front of me to look up the exact quote, but I know it's in Chapter 12 of The Great Hunt when Egwene asks about Moiraine and Anaiya answers her.

[Nightstrike]

Also, I'm not sure if it says they all went in the same direction.  I think it might have implied that Liandrin was following Moiraine, but I don't think Verin's direction was specifically stated. 

They all went in the direction of Tar Valon. If that's what you're referring to. Otherwise, the direction they took after departing might have been less than certain for the rest of the AS.

[metria31183]

Also, I'm not sure if it says they all went in the same direction.  I think it might have implied that Liandrin was following Moiraine, but I don't think Verin's direction was specifically stated. 

They all went in the direction of Tar Valon. If that's what you're referring to. Otherwise, the direction they took after departing might have been less than certain for the rest of the AS.

 

I would like to see the exact quote where is says they all went toward Tar Valon.  Sorry to nitpick, but I feel this point is very important.  I wish I had the book in front of me to look it up for myself.

[Nightstrike]

It was that way they were going. Egwene and Nynaeve were going to become novices.

[metria31183]

It was that way they were going. Egwene and Nynaeve were going to become novices.

 

I'm talking about after the left the group that was going to Tar Valon.  After the Amyrlin's party left Fal Dara, they were on the road a few days when Moiraine, Liandrin and Verin all left.  I'm trying to find where it says which direction they went when the left the Amyrlin's party.

 

Does that clarify what I'm talking about?

[Nightstrike]

I'm trying to find where it says which direction they went when the left the Amyrlin's party.

No, you're right. I don't think the AS in the Amyrlin's party knew which direction they went. I just says that they went without telling anyone. So that means they would probably not know in which direction.

[Mr Ares]

It is good to see that the results show common sense is in the lead. Everyone who actually bothered reading the books can be pretty damn sure that Verin didn't lie. Therefore, this is just AS truth twisting.

[Luckers]

I dunno--Verin, whilst bound to the oaths, clearly lied.

 

Tis' a conundrum.

[metria31183]

I dunno--Verin, whilst bound to the oaths, clearly lied.

 

Tis' a conundrum.

 

It's a matter of perspective.  If Verin was able to convince herself that Moiraine sent her, then from Verin's perspective, she wasn't lying.  Moiraine, however, never said "Verin go follow the boys and see that they don't trip over there own feet" so from Moiraines perspective Verin was lying.  An Aes Sedai tells the truth as she believes it, not the actual truth.

[Gracel]

The exact quote is:

Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar. She thought you might need me.

 

 

Sincere apologies. My copy of TGH has chosen this time to go wandering somewhere, so I simply copied the quote from a post in another thread. I will correct the error shortly.

[mb]

I voted the 3rd option (Verin believing that she was sent due to something Moiraine said).

 

It seems that this situation is the only example picked on, or at least this is the most prevalent picked on example; which to me is slightly odd since this situation is not much different from other supposed lies.

 

[Kaznen]

I have a whole "hidden ajah" theory about why Verin was so hot to help Rand.  That would explain why she convinced herself that Moraine sent her.

[benr]

How you work so hard to convince yourselves that Verin "convinced herself" that Moiraine sent her, so she could lie.  That's the same as lying, anyways.  Verin doesn't need to convince herself of anything; she has her own agenda and everything that she does is to that end.  She is not bound by the first oath.

[Vambram]

http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.7_verin.html

 

VERINISM: In TGH, Verin tells the boys that Moiraine sent her to look after them: [TGH: 14, Wolfbrother, 195] "Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile. "She thought you might need me." Moiraine later says that she did NOT send Verin: [TGH: 49, What was Meant To Be, 572] "I did not send Verin." Moiraine frowned. "She did that on her own." It is pretty obvious that Moiraine is not BA, so that implies that Verin lied, and hence must be BA.

EXPLANATION: Verin could have been tricked by somebody masquerading as Moiraine. Or, perhaps she managed to find an interpretation of her words that could be taken as the truth. (Moiraine wanted somebody to watch over you guys, but she couldn't be here...) Now, MAYBE Verin is using some sneaky thought process to get around the Oath: '"Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile (recalling how satisfying the beer and pizza Moiraine had sent her for had been, and also how satisfying it had been to come up with a literally true statement which would preclude any questions from Rand, et. al.)' [Edward Measure]

 

In [TPOD: Prologue, Deceptive Appearances, 39-41], we learn that Verin has worked out a subtle form of Compulsion which conveniently leaves the victim forgetful of their "session" with Verin. Perhaps Verin compelled Moiraine to send her. "Moiraine Sedai sent me (because I made her), Lord Ingtar." [Tony Evans]

 

At a signing in Atlanta, RJ said that this discrepancy is not a mis-step.

 

Is Verin bound by the Oath Rod?

The evidence in ACOS and TPOD tells us that the Ageless Look is caused by being bound by the Oath Rod (see section 2.3.3). Without a doubt, Verin has the Ageless Look [TGH: 7, Blood Calls Blood, 87]. The conclusion is, then, that Verin is bound by the Oath Rod.

Furthermore, in [aol.com Chat, 27-6-96], RJ just about said straight out that Verin has held the Oath Rod. Somebody asked if it was true if he'd said that Verin had NOT held it, and if so then did Cadsuane also avoid it. His answer: "No, I did not say that Verin had never held the Oath Rod. Cadsuane has also held the Oath Rod." Cadsuane has ALSO held it, implying that Verin has, as well.

 

Note that this only means that Verin has taken at least one Oath on the Rod; it's possible she's not bound by all three. Maybe she discovered that the Oath Rod could be used to release oaths taken on one [ACOS: 40, Spears, 631], although TPOD seems to indicate that she is still bound by the First Oath, at least.

 

[D24g0n]

It has been said before, but Verin does not make very many, if any, slips of the tongue.  For me, her character is way to intelligent/cautious to make such an amateur mistake that could be very easily detected.  The fact that this "lie" seems so obvious sets off alarms for me.

 

"Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar,"

 

That statement is way too ambiguous.  She never explicitly states where Moiraine sent her, so we cannot say it is a lie.  Moiraine could have told her to go to Tar Valon, but she decided to take a detour.  What she said to Ingtar is still true, just not the whole truth.  AS are known to do this kind of thing.

 

Besides, Tam says it best...

 

"You see, lad, Aes Sedai are tricksome. They don’t lie, not right out, but the truth an Aes Sedai tells you is not always the truth you think it is."

 

-The Eye of the World, Tellings of the Wheel

[Dmitri]

It has been said before, but Verin does not make very many, if any, slips of the tongue.  For me, her character is way to intelligent/cautious to make such an amateur mistake that could be very easily detected.  The fact that this "lie" seems so obvious sets off alarms for me.

 

"Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar,"

...

Besides, Tam says it best...

"You see, lad, Aes Sedai are tricksome. They don’t lie, not right out, but the truth an Aes Sedai tells you is not always the truth you think it is."

 

I had the same thought when reading the discussion on this situation - for Verin not to break the Oath is only needed to believe herself that something Moiraine said made Verin go.

And this phrase - "Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar, ..." - should be true only to her, not to Moiraine, Ingtar, Rand or whoever else.

That's the point, IMHO, where lies the misunderstanding between Alghar Khan and the others. He believes Verin's words have to be true for them, which is wrong.

 

 

 

[Alghar Khan]

I had the same thought when reading the discussion on this situation - for Verin not to break the Oath is only needed to believe herself that something Moiraine said made Verin go.

And this phrase - "Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar, ..." - should be true only to her, not to Moiraine, Ingtar, Rand or whoever else.

That's the point, IMHO, where lies the misunderstanding between Alghar Khan and the others. He believes Verin's words have to be true for them, which is wrong.

I don't believe they have to be true for anyone else than Verin. But they do have to be true in Verin's view. You missed half the thing that Verin said. She said "Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar. She thought you might need me.". Moiraine never said that.

Moiraine never sent Verin anywhere. Verin is a smart woman, she comprehends what has been said (and what wasn't). Verin knows that Moiraine never sent her anywhere. Verin went anyway. Verin lied.

 

[Dmitri]

I don't believe they have to be true for anyone else than Verin. But they do have to be true in Verin's view. You missed half the thing that Verin said. She said "Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar. She thought you might need me.". Moiraine never said that.

Moiraine never sent Verin anywhere. Verin is a smart woman, she comprehends what has been said (and what wasn't). Verin knows that Moiraine never sent her anywhere. Verin went anyway. Verin lied.

 

Neither I think Moiraine said that, you know  ;)

 

I believe she said something that Verin did interpret for herself as a reason to go after Rand & Co. Something that let her evade breaking the First Oath.

 

Which has nothing to do with what Moiraine meant by her words.