Foreshadowing or what ??? *KOD Spoiler Alert*

[Osan`gar]

early in Chapter 5 of TSR about 4 or 5 pages into the chpater Nynaeve is having a conversation with Avienda where she makes the following statement:

 

"Stilling is not a thing anyone would choose to study, you understand," Nynaeve continued."It is generally accepted to be irreversable. What makes a woman able to channel cannot be replaced once it is removed, any more than a hand that has been cut off can be Healed back into existence."

 

now we know that stilling can be healed, Nynaeve discovered it herself. Since Rand has lost a hand in KOD, is it possible that RJ used this sentence as a bit or foreshadowing? is it possible that RJ intended us to look back at this sentence and think that Rand might have his hand healed or replaced somehow?

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I never noticed that before but I think you may be onto something here. Good catch.

[MikeRiley]

I'm not sure, a lost hand was the example given a few times, wasn't it? The other example being death - something Rand learned first hand couldn't be healed. It could be foreshadowing but Nynaeve has little time to learn to heal Rand's severed hand and Rand probably wouldn't give her the chance to study him anyway.

[pxnsolid]

theres no reason with healing a hand or limb in general couldnt be replace. im not saying regrown though, but with the concept of transplants and healing together?

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I'm not sure, a lost hand was the example given a few times, wasn't it? The other example being death - something Rand learned first hand couldn't be healed. It could be foreshadowing but Nynaeve has little time to learn to heal Rand's severed hand and Rand probably wouldn't give her the chance to study him anyway.

 

Actually, I think Nyn is one to the few, if not the only person that Rand would allow to study him.  Whatever else you can say about Nyn she is about the only character who has been consistantly loyal to Rand.  Rand chose her to help him with the cleansing of Saiden so I would seem that he does trust her more than most.  Granted she is one of the few AS powerfull enough to help with the cleansing but still I think it implies a level of turst.

[Casco]

I wont be suprised if NY do discover how to heal death :) we have gotten alot of hints to this (Light, NY wont give up before she learn to heal 3 day dead man) so heal, and rebuild a savaraged hand would be a piece of a cake to that.

Ye, NY is the only one (beside Min, Elayne and Avi) he would trust 100%. maby Moiraine to, when she comes back.

[MikeRiley]

I'm not sure, a lost hand was the example given a few times, wasn't it? The other example being death - something Rand learned first hand couldn't be healed. It could be foreshadowing but Nynaeve has little time to learn to heal Rand's severed hand and Rand probably wouldn't give her the chance to study him anyway.

 

Actually, I think Nyn is one to the few, if not the only person that Rand would allow to study him.  Whatever else you can say about Nyn she is about the only character who has been consistantly loyal to Rand.  Rand chose her to help him with the cleansing of Saiden so I would seem that he does trust her more than most.  Granted she is one of the few AS powerfull enough to help with the cleansing but still I think it implies a level of turst.

 

I didn't mean it as a trust thing. Rand is way too busy to sit still for something as trivial as a lost hand. There just isn't time for Nynaeve to study him. I should add, he already shrugged off his vision problems when Nynaeve suggested she could help.

[Jethro]

early in Chapter 5 of TSR about 4 or 5 pages into the chpater Nynaeve is having a conversation with Avienda where she makes the following statement:

 

"Stilling is not a thing anyone would choose to study, you understand," Nynaeve continued."It is generally accepted to be irreversable. What makes a woman able to channel cannot be replaced once it is removed, any more than a hand that has been cut off can be Healed back into existence."

 

now we know that stilling can be healed, Nynaeve discovered it herself. Since Rand has lost a hand in KOD, is it possible that RJ used this sentence as a bit or foreshadowing? is it possible that RJ intended us to look back at this sentence and think that Rand might have his hand healed or replaced somehow?

 

I thought this a log time ago and I also thought that Nynaeve was so determined to find a way to Heal stilling, I also seem to remember her saying or thinking she wouldnt be happy until she Healed someone three days dead. Am I remembering this correctly? Because if I am I think this is foreshadowing for Nynaeve being involved in Rands return after dying. Maybe something like this; Alivia helps him sacrifice himself so he can be outside the Pattern, enabling him to strike the Great Lord directly, and then Nynaeve resurrects Rand using Callandor and linked to Damer Flynn and Jahar Narishma.

[Casco]

I thought this a log time ago and I also thought that Nynaeve was so determined to find a way to Heal stilling, I also seem to remember her saying or thinking she wouldnt be happy until she Healed someone three days dead.

I think it was Elayne who was thinking that abouy NY when they was in Salidar, before NY did heal Logain and all the AS thought that NY was just stubborn. But there are more who have thought that about NY...and i do think that she will do it. I dont know who she will revive (ofc) but i would bet on Rand.

[MikeRiley]

Part of me is hoping he does die and doesn't revive. I think the ending would be just as good if the Light's victory left them short a few of the key players, showing how rough it was. We already know Mat and Tuon aren't going to die, but that leaves quite a few people. I can see Perrin dying, same with Lan, Thom and Egwene. It just seems like I'd enjoy re-reading it better if I knew some of them were going to die soon.

[mb]

I am not sure if Rand would get his hand back, even if a way is discovered.  It would be likely that Min would have had a Viewing (and/or Egwene a Dream) if it was going to happen.

 

The other example being death - something Rand learned first hand couldn't be healed.

Yet Rand did come real close to healing death.

Also, Nicola had a Foretelling of the Dragon Reborn doing 9 impossible things.  Healing death might be one of them.

 

[MikeRiley]

How did he come close? It was specifically stated in the books during one of his 3-4 flashbacks of the scene that death can't be healed, that Rand found out the power could manipulate a body to make it move but that was it, there was no life. For him to have been close to Healing that girl he would have needed a weave going out to secure the soul and we know he did nothing of the kind.

[Osan`gar]

How did he come close? It was specifically stated in the books during one of his 3-4 flashbacks of the scene that death can't be healed, that Rand found out the power could manipulate a body to make it move but that was it, there was no life. For him to have been close to Healing that girl he would have needed a weave going out to secure the soul and we know he did nothing of the kind.

 

I am not so sure. The DO has brought several people back, albeit in the bodies of others, ie... Cyndane, Osan'Ggar, Aran'Gar. I feel confidant in my opinion that any one with sufficient power and the proper knowledge could also perform the same feat. if you had enough ashaman, and aes'sedai linked using calandor, and the Chodan'kal plus whatever other angreal and sa'angreal that are available i think you may only lack for knowledge. theoreticaly it is possbile. Right now only the DO knows how. but who can say what will be learned in AMOL.

[Jethro]

I feel confidant in my opinion that any one with sufficient power and the proper knowledge could also perform the same feat

 

I agree 100%. Maybe Alivia will help him die in a way that secures his soul somehow. Or maybe she will help him invade Moridins body, and Rands original body dies?

 

I cant wait to see how it turns out!!

[MikeRiley]

Sure, it could be possible in the sense that anything is possible. They have no reason to believe the forsaken Rand destroyed were brought back in new bodies and even if they did and managed to figure out how it was done, what are they going to do about a body? It took the Dark One a little time to find and secure the souls he had access to and for all we know the old body will be ruined by then.

 

But again, the Light guys have no reason to believe death can be Healed and there's little time to figure out how, especially considering they would need dead bodies to test the weaves on.

[Orange Fescue]

I feel confidant in my opinion that any one with sufficient power and the proper knowledge could also perform the same feat

 

I agree 100%. Maybe Alivia will help him die in a way that secures his soul somehow. Or maybe she will help him invade Moridins body, and Rands original body dies?

 

I cant wait to see how it turns out!!

Could one of those mind trap thingies Moridin used on Moghedien and Cyndane be used to secure the soul until it could be transferred into a new body? Or, since Rand is a hero and his soul spends its off time in TAR, could Nynaeve pull the soul out of there like Moghedien did with Birgitte? That would solve the hand issue, too, since the body that would materialize wouldn't show pre-death wear and tear.

[Jethro]

I feel confidant in my opinion that any one with sufficient power and the proper knowledge could also perform the same feat

 

I agree 100%. Maybe Alivia will help him die in a way that secures his soul somehow. Or maybe she will help him invade Moridins body, and Rands original body dies?

 

I cant wait to see how it turns out!!

Could one of those mind trap thingies Moridin used on Moghedien and Cyndane be used to secure the soul until it could be transferred into a new body? Or, since Rand is a hero and his soul spends its off time in TAR, could Nynaeve pull the soul out of there like Moghedien did with Birgitte? That would solve the hand issue, too, since the body that would materialize wouldn't show pre-death wear and tear.

 

Its a possibility that the mint trap could secure the soul although nothing has been mentioned of it in the books IIRC. I personally think it will be something to do with the link between Rand and Moridin. The bit where Rand thinks "if either (he or Moridin) moves a hairswidth, they will touch." I think that if Rand "moved a hairswidth" (not physically, but something of the mind or soul, or channeling a specific weave?) it would cause his soul to come into contact with Moridins and will result in a sort of battle of wills, described abit similar to when Rand and Aginor? Balthamel? fought over the Eye, or when Rand and Asmo fought over the Choeden Kal. If Rand wins (and he will, perhaps not realising what was going on until afterwards) he will invade Moridins body. Maybe Moridin will be crafty enough to slip into Rands half-crippled body, and then Alivia kills Moridin-in-Rands-body in a way that fits with the prophecies, so it turns out that Rands body is sacrificed to do all the cleansing and whatnot. Alivia helps Rand survive Tarmon Gaidon by sacrficing his body, meaning she helped a part of him die. Just not all of him.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Rand failing in his attempt to heal death proves nothing.  Rand has never shown any particular tallent for healing.  Nyneave and Flinn are completely different stories.  It will probalby take the combined efforts of the two of them, but I won't be suprised if we see death healed at some point in AMOL.

[Osan`gar]

the closest thing to healing death which has so far occured in the series is moving souls to still living bodies. this was done by the DO if he can not "heal death" then i doubt it can be done. but i do think that people will learn how to shuffle souls between bodies. all it will take is a way to capture the soul and a suitable vessel to place it in. now i dont know if it will be possible to place the soul in a living body still occupied by a soul or if only very freshly dead bodies will work. that will be a question of morals, ethics, and constraints of the power.

[Orange Fescue]

the closest thing to healing death which has so far occured in the series is moving souls to still living bodies. this was done by the DO if he can not "heal death" then i doubt it can be done. but i do think that people will learn how to shuffle souls between bodies. all it will take is a way to capture the soul and a suitable vessel to place it in. now i dont know if it will be possible to place the soul in a living body still occupied by a soul or if only very freshly dead bodies will work. that will be a question of morals, ethics, and constraints of the power.

No, there's also what Moghedien did to Birgitte. She was clearly dead and hanging out in TAR. When Moghedien ripped her out into the regular, waking world, she got a new body and was alive again, albeit tenuously until Elayne bonded her. I would argue that's as much "healing death" as transferring a soul into a new body.

[moroten]

There also the spirit trap that happens to faile on book 3. Aint her soul trapped in TAR and her body useless? If her body would have died would he soul have been trapped?

 

-Moroten

[Luckers]

Soul manipulation is not rare. Mordeth's soul survive his death, and manages to assert himself into Fain--indeed, where it not for the Dark One's manipulation of Fain Mordeth should have been able to remove his soul and replace it completely. Dreamwalkers souls leave their bodies all the time, and they are able to pull others souls out of their bodies. Wolves exist with their souls partially outside themselves, its how they talk, and how Perrin and the like do the same. And as Moroton pointed out, the hedgehod ter'angreal was able to pull souls out, showing that any channeler could achieve as much. It even seems likely that Machin Shin and Mashadar are made of the souls of those they've consumed.

 

Healing death would rely on catching the soul before it departs--we know this through the Dark One--even connected, when balefire is involved the soul departs before the Dark One can secure it.

 

It would be possible, i suppose, to heal death. Provided the channeler had some way of securing the soul at the moment of death--which seems unlikely given none of the modern channelers have even the slightest understanding of this. Perhaps the bond could be remodeled to do this--but the likelyhood is small.

 

 

[Osan`gar]

i think it more likely that rands "body" will die and his soul will still be connected to morind in some manner since they are linked. unsupported opinion time but rand will then be in position for a battle of wills for the only body available to him. if he wins he has died but lives again. neeat wrap up