The size of Shadar Logoth and bad eye sight

[Roxinos]

Hyperbole = exaggeration. I can't say that the description is exaggerated. It is told "matter of factly" simply stating how large everything is.

 

Just because there is no exclamation point doesn't mean it isn't exaggeration. It is clearly in the point of view of a few farmboys who are awed by the sheer size of the city. They had not seen anything before, and they are trying to compare it to things they know. People often misrepresent the size of things and they often take something they know to be big and use it as a non-standard unit of measure to exclaim how large something is.

 

"This place is huge. I could fit my entire house in here."

 

Does that mean you could actually, literally fit an entire house inside there? No. It's simply a way of describing awe.

 

The Aiel "army" did foage and so must many other Randland armies have done.

 

The Aiel don't have "armies." And the Aiel forage because they know how. But they also don't run in packs of 30,000+ men and women. I don't know of any other group of militarized men and women in Randland that has foraged extensively. The bad winter and summer certainly did put a strain on resources, and there may have been some hunting done to make up for it, but that's not the same thing.

 

RJ does state (in the story) that they have problems supplying the armies with food

 

It's a common problem with any army. Supply trains get too long or they get cut off and you have a problem supplying your troops. Morale goes down. If you go through a particularly bad winter or summer (which both happen in tWoT), you may have problems supplying your troops.

 

These are facts of military. This isn't a misrepresentation of the size of the armies.

 

Try being chased in the Italian countryside and steer towards Rome. Let me know if any hill would prevent you from seeing the city from far off.

 

Using my own analogy against me does not work.

 

The city is very large. That is decided. What I argue for is that it could not have been aproached unknowingly. If you stand within a mile or two from any city of any size you will see it (city, not town or village).

 

That is simply not the case. And you're arguing a point that is not supported by anything but your own imagination. I'm supported by the facts of the book. They didn't see the city until they were upon it.

[cosmicpanda]

What were the lighting conditions like? Was it twilight or so when they approached? Also, is Shaidar Logoth in a valley?

[magnutz]

Just because there is no exclamation point doesn't mean it isn't exaggeration. It is clearly in the point of view of a few farmboys who are awed by the sheer size of the city. They had not seen anything before, and they are trying to compare it to things they know. People often misrepresent the size of things and they often take something they know to be big and use it as a non-standard unit of measure to exclaim how large something is.

 

Some of the descriptions aren't like that, not hyperbole at all. "Rows on rows on rows of stone bences" it is fun to read how you try to make Shadar Logoth small by insisting that the three farm boys are unfamiliar with large structures. The bleedin' city is very large. I'd guess it rivals any of the larget seen in the story judging by the whole it left when it sank into earth.

 

The Aiel don't have "armies." And the Aiel forage because they know how. But they also don't run in packs of 30,000+ men and women. I don't know of any other group of militarized men and women in Randland that has foraged extensively. The bad winter and summer certainly did put a strain on resources, and there may have been some hunting done to make up for it, but that's not the same thing.

 

That is why I put the " " around the word 'army'. Still it feels off for some reason. Like, as I said before, the proportions are off a bit. It gets silly, feels silly. Like an itch you can't scratch. Something is off.

 

Using my own analogy against me does not work.

 

Sure it works. You used it to prove a point and I used it to prove that point wrong.

 

That is simply not the case. And you're arguing a point that is not supported by anything but your own imagination. I'm supported by the facts of the book. They didn't see the city until they were upon it.

 

I don't see the story/books as sources of facts, like an instruction manual or part of an encyklopedia. I see it as a story. Somethings are written clearly and other things are to be found between the lines. Ok, so they don't see the city until they are right infront of it. That is the textual fact. I argue that fact and think it is very unlikely. Improbable, impossible to approach a large city and not see it until you are at the gates of said city.

 

They should have seen it from far away., No forest or moderately large hill would hide Shadar Logoth.

[magnutz]

What were the lighting conditions like? Was it twilight or so when they approached? Also, is Shaidar Logoth in a valley?

 

They don't enter Shadar Logoth in darkness and it isn't dark when the three farm boys go out on their adventure into the city, where they see all the super huge overwhelming structures of Aridhol. ;)

 

Sure there might be valleys and hills but not that many or that big/deep/high. ;)

[cosmicpanda]

The way I'm imagining it now, Shaidar Logoth must be in a bit of a depression, and the 'last hill' must have been quite high, with a long grassy slope down to SL.

 

I refuse to start thinking that RJ was wrong, because then that just opens up cans of worms elsewhere.

[magnutz]

The way I'm imagining it now, Shaidar Logoth must be in a bit of a depression, and the 'last hill' must have been quite high, with a long grassy slope down to SL.

 

I refuse to start thinking that RJ was wrong, because then that just opens up cans of worms elsewhere.

 

I wouldn't say he was wrong. I mean, he created the story and knew what he was doing. I just find it improbable that you could (here I go again) approach a very large 'anything' and not see it until you are on it.

 

When I read about the cleansing of Saidar I got the feeling that Shadar Logoth is/was in a depression, a moderate one. Not a sink hole. That could explain why they don't see it, but I still don't think so. ;) I guess writing about the city before they had reached it could have lessened the suspense but... it would have been seen. :) And they are close to other civilized areas. If Aridhol/Shadar Logoth is/was such a horror inspiring place whould anyone have built/founded any kind of permanent place of living near it?! The whole Shadar Logoth deal feels off to me. Like it was meant to be forgotten quickly but then when RJ decided to make this a long series of novels that didn't happen.

 

I guess thinking like this is one of the drawbacks of re-reading something too many times.. I loooove the story and these thoughts don't take any of the pleasure away. It adds to it.

[ROB_88]

don't forget that the city is broken, in ruins actually. that takes down the greatness of it quite a bit.

it might not be enough to hide it completetly, but when a building is broken it is no longer as straight and clear as it once was. it is haredr to say if that silhouette is a building or just a big tree.

therefore it can easily be camoflauged by the forest, especially in a moment of stress like being chased by monsters

[magnutz]

don't forget that the city is broken, in ruins actually. that takes down the greatness of it quite a bit.

it might not be enough to hide it completetly, but when a building is broken it is no longer as straight and clear as it once was. it is haredr to say if that silhouette is a building or just a big tree.

therefore it can easily be camoflauged by the forest, especially in a moment of stress like being chased by monsters

 

yes, I thought about that too. The walls being broken inplaces and all the interior spaces empty save from dust. The statues are broken and nothing is as it once was, but the towers and domes seem to be there. The decay seems to have been halted somewhat?! But I see your point. Still. Nothing that big/large can hide! ;) I'm going to look for the info of the size of the hole that the city left after the cleansing.. ;)

[Nightstrike]

They are traveling through untouched forest, remember. No big machines cutting down trees before the reach any decent size. The buildings must be covered with mosses, ferns and vines. Maybe even bushes and trees. They were chased by very scary creatures - hords of them. Probably constantly looking back. They weren't expecting to see a big city all of a sudden. We don't know the size of the hill and some of the buildings were probably more or less in ruins (top of them having fallen down). I don't find it unreasonable that they didn't realize what they've stumbled upon until having reached the top of that hill.

[magnutz]

They are traveling through untouched forest, remember. No big machines cutting down trees before the reach any decent size. The buildings must be covered with mosses, ferns and vines. Maybe even bushes and trees. They were chased by very scary creatures - hords of them. Probably constantly looking back. They weren't expecting to see a big city all of a sudden. We don't know the size of the hill and some of the buildings were probably more or less in ruins (top of them having fallen down). I don't find it unreasonable that they didn't realize what they've stumbled upon until having reached the top of that hill.

 

No, I see your points. ;) if all those conditions were met I agree. But Aridhol being Aridhol and also being Shadar Logoth I suspect that (my feeling of the place) nothing green grew on its tainted walls. Somewhere in the text is says that only some weeds grew in the city (not outside it granted but anyway). I might read the passage again. And see it more clearly. All the arguments listed by everyone here has made me rethink a little and I agree that you could stumble upon the city. Will re-read and get back. I must have missed something. ;)

[metria31183]

don't forget that the city is broken, in ruins actually. that takes down the greatness of it quite a bit.

it might not be enough to hide it completetly, but when a building is broken it is no longer as straight and clear as it once was. it is haredr to say if that silhouette is a building or just a big tree.

therefore it can easily be camoflauged by the forest, especially in a moment of stress like being chased by monsters

 

yes, I thought about that too. The walls being broken inplaces and all the interior spaces empty save from dust. The statues are broken and nothing is as it once was, but the towers and domes seem to be there. The decay seems to have been halted somewhat?! But I see your point. Still. Nothing that big/large can hide! ;) I'm going to look for the info of the size of the hole that the city left after the cleansing.. ;)

 

In Crossroads of Twilight when the sisters that were sent by the rebel AS come back from investigating the site of the cleansing they state that the crater left were Shador Logoth used to be was 3 miles across and estimated to be a mile deep.

[Roxinos]

"Rows on rows on rows of stone bences" it is fun to read how you try to make Shadar Logoth small by insisting that the three farm boys are unfamiliar with large structures.

 

Again, I've never said it was small. I have admitted it was a large city. I'm merely commenting on your misconception of its visibility relative to its size.

 

Have you ever gone to a church? That's "rows on rows on rows of pews." Same concept. It's left intentionally vague to allow our imagination to be supplanted by the farmboys' awe of the place. Considering they'd never seen a city so large.

 

That is why I put the " " around the word 'army'. Still it feels off for some reason. Like, as I said before, the proportions are off a bit. It gets silly, feels silly. Like an itch you can't scratch. Something is off.

 

Your gut feeling is not evidence.

 

Sure it works. You used it to prove a point and I used it to prove that point wrong.

 

No, it doesn't. If you wish to use my analogy against me, you must provide support for why it works better to support your point than it does to support mine.

 

They should have seen it from far away., No forest or moderately large hill would hide Shadar Logoth.

 

And as I've said, that's your problem. Trying to imagine the size of the city, proportions, the effect being stressed from being chased by monsters, a forest, and many hills have in obscuring one's vision of a city, no matter how large, is obviously posing a problem for you.

 

Needless to say, there is nothing special going on here. And my main point is that there is no discussion necessary here. Unless you just wish to marvel at how inexact the art of writing is, and how Jordan may have chosen to use poetic license in this circumstance. If that's the case, then go ahead. By all means.

 

Edit:

 

All the arguments listed by everyone here has made me rethink a little and I agree that you could stumble upon the city

 

*shakes head* As long as you admit that, I'm fine. I'm disinterested now.

[magnutz]

Yes, no, maybe. The thread was started for one reason: I had to went the feeling of wrongness. Now I do consider it thoroughly vented!

 

End of thread, for me.

[Thor]

yes it was a big village, but it was really really really dark, so let's leave it at that.

 

and yes armies do need to forage, the boderland army with tenobia was practically going to starve if they didn't start moving.

[magnutz]

yes it was a big village, but it was really really really dark, so let's leave it at that.

 

It was a big city (approx. 3 miles wide and 1 mile deep?)and it was not dark. It was daylight. Twilight and then Night itself came while they were inside the Shadar Logoth walls.

 

I still feel a bit mussed over this but will read the passage again. ;)

[Kaznen]

I surprised no one has brought up that it was surrounded by hills and left abandoned to the forest for 2500 years.  The reason it wasn't swallowed by the forest a long time ago was because of the "darkness."

 

And when you look at the POV of three young men who grew up in a village of about 200-400 people, and I think the numbers are generous, and they enter a city about the size Rome was during the height of the Roman Empire, it will be a little overwhelming to somebody who hasn't seen building higher then three stories. 

[magnutz]

I surprised no one has brought up that it was surrounded by hills and left abandoned to the forest for 2500 years.  The reason it wasn't swallowed by the forest a long time ago was because of the "darkness."

 

And when you look at the POV of three young men who grew up in a village of about 200-400 people, and I think the numbers are generous, and they enter a city about the size Rome was during the height of the Roman Empire, it will be a little overwhelming to somebody who hasn't seen building higher then three stories. 

 

You are totally right and I never thought anything of this the first time I read the book. Only now after some 15 years of being in Randland on and off I get these thoughts and also the need to ventilate them somewhere.

 

The fact that the boys are very level headed makes me not taking their descriptions as hyperbole. And judging by the number of men and women brought out of the Two Rivers area during the course of the story I'd say there are way more than 200-300 people there.

 

I quoted some scenes from the book and I can't see them as being inacurate or hyperbole. The description of what is seen is very straight forward and devoid of feelings - not hyperbole or litotes - simply statements. "row on row on row" and I bet they have (the farm boys) seen large barns and mills and such to have an idea of how large something must be to be considered huge. I do not buy some of your ideas that the boys are starstruck banjo playing farmer inbreeds. The way they exclaimed over Baerlon just chapters earlier is more like it. That isn't the case in Shadar Logoth, I think. Rand is somber, Perrin likewise, only Mat is on his toes wanting to go exploring. There are more scenes from Shadar Logoth later in the story and those scenes are seen through hard eyes, not prone to mooning over biig houses or what not.

 

Anyway, I guess if the walls of Shadar Logoth were all covered with wines and creepers and all the towers toppled and the whole city situated in a depression, and the last hill a bit higher than those previously passed in their flight, and ... they could very likely have blundered right into the walls of said city.

 

Lovely discussions! ;)

[naxxan]

To put in my two cents, rereading the chapter where the group finds Shadar Logoth it's pretty plain that the city was well hidden by the forest surrounding it: "He led the way north again, not at the crashing pace they had been making, but rather in the quick walk with which they had traveled the Caemlyn Road.  The land continued to flatten, though the forest remained as thick." (The Caemlyn Road)  The party also zig-zagged through the forest as they went, finding ways that would leave no trail or easy passage: "Their path was no longer straight, as it had been before, for Lan chose a route that meandered over hard ground and rock outcrops, and he no longer let them force their way through tangles of brush, instead taking the time to make thier way around." (The Caemlyn Road)  My final point is this: "A great, irregular mass stretched out to either side out of sight, in most places as high as the trees that grew right up to it, with even taller spires here and there." (The Caemlyn Road)

 

As the chapter finishes the boys realize what they thought was a cliff is a city wall.  it is toppled in many places and very irregular.  I don't find it hard to believe that through the gaps of a forest, as you twist and turn, worrying what storybook nightmare is on your tail, you wouldn't notice the vast, irregular, completely vine overtaken, remains of a city wall until you're right on it.

 

Keep in mind, the sudden sighting of Shadar Logoth was seen from Rand, who was so busy watching his backtrail he admits he wasn't the first to see the wall.

[magnutz]

To put in my two cents, rereading the chapter where the group finds Shadar Logoth it's pretty plain that the city was well hidden by the forest surrounding it: "He led the way north again, not at the crashing pace they had been making, but rather in the quick walk with which they had traveled the Caemlyn Road.  The land continued to flatten, though the forest remained as thick." (The Caemlyn Road)  The party also zig-zagged through the forest as they went, finding ways that would leave no trail or easy passage: "Their path was no longer straight, as it had been before, for Lan chose a route that meandered over hard ground and rock outcrops, and he no longer let them force their way through tangles of brush, instead taking the time to make thier way around." (The Caemlyn Road)  My final point is this: "A great, irregular mass stretched out to either side out of sight, in most places as high as the trees that grew right up to it, with even taller spires here and there." (The Caemlyn Road)

 

As the chapter finishes the boys realize what they thought was a cliff is a city wall.  it is toppled in many places and very irregular.  I don't find it hard to believe that through the gaps of a forest, as you twist and turn, worrying what storybook nightmare is on your tail, you wouldn't notice the vast, irregular, completely vine overtaken, remains of a city wall until you're right on it.

 

Keep in mind, the sudden sighting of Shadar Logoth was seen from Rand, who was so busy watching his backtrail he admits he wasn't the first to see the wall.

 

;) There you go. Good post there! Must have been on snooze mode during those few lines. A little slow on the take. ;)

 

I guess we all take in stuff differently and I found it strange that you could blunder into anything that big. And the forest being dense and filled with evergreens? There are things that won't ring true in my ears yet but I will go back and read it again. RJ didn't make a mistake here, only I keep reading it in a way that puts an itch in mine eye.

[Charlz Fel]

Another point here that has been brought up, but not, I think, sufficiently emphasized.  Shadar Logoth was abandoned for over two thousand years.  Jordan tends to throw millennia around so that you don't remember how long that is.  In our world, two thousand years ago was the time of the Romans.  Admittedly, many Greek and Roman ruins are to some extent intact, but on the other hand, many of these have been tended as a matter of cultural pride.  Being left alone to the mercies of wind and rain, I don't find it at all implausible that the city structures (including the wall) have become so irregular that they are barely recognizable as such.  If anything, I am surprised that there would be any city left to recognize, except to the trained eye.  Most of the ancient ruins I know of were either tended or buried and later excavated.

 

edit: replaced "Greed" by "Greek"

[magnutz]

Another point here that has been brought up, but not, I think, sufficiently emphasized.  Shadar Logoth was abandoned for over two thousand years.  Jordan tends to throw millennia around so that you don't remember how long that is.  In our world, two thousand years ago was the time of the Romans.  Admittedly, many Greed and Roman ruins are to some extent intact, but on the other hand, many of these have been tended as a matter of cultural pride.  Being left alone to the mercies of wind and rain, I don't find it at all implausible that the city structures (including the wall) have become so irregular that they are barely recognizable as such.  If anything, I am surprised that there would be any city left to recognize, except to the trained eye.  Most of the ancient ruins I know of were either tended or buried and later excavated.

 

I agree with your thinking here. The only problem I have with it is that the feel (my feeling) of the city itself is that of a pretty well preserved one. Sure, the statues have all toppled and the fountains are cracked. All rooms in palaces are dusty and all the tapestries are gone or nearly so. But the general feel of the place is that the structures and streets are well. Not all cracked and the towers are still tall. I get the feeling of an abandoned city that stands as it always has. Perhaps Mordeth cleans it regularly. :) Or that Mashadar (sp) keeps decay away. Perhaps it keeps the city intact for it to be interesting to come into. You know, like a trap. Mashadar keeps a tidy house...

 

Oh well. I guess I've read this too much over too long a time.

[Thor]

isn't aridhol ogier built?  Maybe there were some aes sedai who further strengthened the structures using the power, so it lasts longer than Roman buildings.

[magnutz]

isn't aridhol ogier built?  Maybe there were some aes sedai who further strengthened the structures using the power, so it lasts longer than Roman buildings.

 

Interesting idea! Weren't a lot of cities back in the Randland days Ogierbuilt?

[MikeRiley]

At least some of it was Ogier built. There's a waygate inside the city there that marked the location of a grove.

[ROB_88]

i thought we were done with this. let it die