tower of ghenjei

[Majsju]

It just doesn't make sense to me that Mat's luck comes from the dagger.  There is nothing that suggests Mordeth has more luck than any other man, he was just evil and a good talker...like Wormtongue  :)  Mat's luck has to come from within himself, something unique to him, like you suggested.  But his luck wouldn't have anything to do with the dagger.  Each of the three ta'veren have an extra addition to themselves besides being ta'veren.  Rand can channel, Perrin is a Wolfbrother, and Mat is lucky...extremely lucky.  Maybe being ta'veren enhances each of their traits, but each of them belongs to themselves.  As the story and each book progresses, Rand, Perrin, and Mat's additional traits also progress.  You could argue that each trait has nothing to do with the other, but as the story goes forward, each trait progresses and grows stronger as Rand, Perrin, and Mat each grow stronger.

 

Also, Rand didn't channel until after being in SL, and Perrin didn't start to change into a Wolfbrother until after SL, so the argument could be made that SL affected them too.  They all 3 messed with the treasure.  Mat was obviously affected the most because he took something.  But (i'm about to make an absurd argument for the proof that the dagger didn't give mat his luck), by touching the treasure Mat and Perrin were influenced by SL and they got the powers of luck and wolfbrother.  Rand's channeling came from him being the DR, not from SL, so he doesn't count.  Since you argue that Mat's luck came from SL, then Perrin's wolfiness should have come from there too.  You might argue that Mat taking the dagger out of SL gave him the power, but that wouldn't work because all it did was almost kill him.  Perrin and Mat both messed with treasure.  It doesn't make sense to say Mat's luck was from the dagger.

 

Also, I would assume that you aren't a Ta'veren from the cradle, as you mature you come into being a Ta'veren.  The story begins when Perrin, Rand, and Mat were around the ages of 18-20, the age where manhood and maturation begin.  They could have exhibited ta'veren stuff at that point because that's when it started it's exhibition in them.  Also, Moraine knew they were ta'veren before anything ever happened in them to point it out.  Sure little things happened all through their life up until TEOTW such as them surviving diseases or other things in their childhood, but the major stuff didn't start happening until they hit their manhood.  It makes sense to say that as they mature, so does the ta'veren within them.  So you can't make the argument that Rand, Mat, and Perrin weren't always Ta'veren. 

 

Also, what evidence do you have that says that they won't be ta'veren the rest of their lives?  I've never heard of that, but I could be wrong.

 

sorry it's such a long post...I had a lot to say

 

Mat's luck is his own and grows as he grows.  The dagger had nothing to do with it.

 

You are missing a few crucial points.

1. Comparing Mat and Mordeth. Mats extreme luck does not come to him until after he has recieved the Healing that severed his link to the dagger. Needless to say, Mordeth did not recieve such a healing.

2. Comparing Mats exposure to the SL taint with Perrins. Unlike Perrin, Mat brought something with him, the dagger. Unlike Perrin, Mat was exposed to the taint for quite some time.

That said, Perrin being a wolfbrother is the result of him having the genes that allows him to be one, at a time when the Wheel allows for wolfbrothers to exist. It has nothing to do with ta'veren. It has nothing to do with Perrins visit to SL.

 

Regarding ta'veren, as Jessica said, the lads did not become ta'veren until shortly before moiraines appearance in Emonds Field. You become ta'veren because the Wheel decides to make you one, according to the needs of the Wheel. It is not some latent ability that just waits for the "bearer" to grow up.

Aside from the Q&A in Glimmers, RJ also covers this in his blog.

[Krakalakachkn]

If your argument is that the healing gave Mat the luck, then it wouldn't be the dagger that gave him luck, it would be whatever the Aes Sedai did to him during the healing.

 

Also, my comparing Mat's taint to Perrin's taint wasn't an actual argument, I realize it made no sense.  Also, I can understand about Perrin being a Wolfbrother.

 

But it still doesn't make sense that the luck come from the dagger.  If his luck started after the healing, then it would be because of the healing.  The dagger IS Mordeth.  They are one and the same.  The same taint consumes them both.  That's why Fain/Mordeth feels complete when he gets the dagger back.  If anything Fain/Mordeth should have an unbelievable amount of luck because he is consumed by the same taint that gave Mat his luck.  Fain has more Mordeth than Mat, therefore he would have much more luck...if the dagger was actually what gave him the luck.

[Chel Vanin]

From TDR Matt thinks it is from the combination of the dagger and the healing. 

 

I don't remember this specific line, could someone point me to the right page or post the exact quote?

 

I still think its from Mat being Ta'veren. What about Hawkwing winning at dice all the time?

 

As far as I can gather, the lucky dagger idea is that he gained most of his luck after being healed. My question would be, why? Why would healing Mat from a tainted evil dagger produce extreme luck? That seems so random. Then you have evidence that other Ta'veren have been lucky with dice. It would follow reason that Mat is lucky because he is Ta'veren.

[Agnarr]

Secondly, I think that Rand and Perrin actually are both very lucky.

While all three do twist chance, and all three do have a lot of luck, Mat is different to the others in how his manifests. Rand mentions that the good luck is balanced with bad. Someone survives a fall with no injury, someone else dies in a freak accident. Mat is presented as the most lucky man in the world - not just at dice, but at anything random. Even at worst, he still wins more than he loses, but at his best he wins and wins and wins. It is one sided, in a way it isn't for the others. There is more to it than that, though. We also have the dice, a unique Mat phenomenon. Why do the other ta'veren not have this? Because it is not ta'veren. It is something unique to Mat, so we should look for something associated wit Mat, not the others (one could point out that Fain doesn't display such luck, despite his time with the dagger, but he does display a lot of powers, that are not his originally. He also has been changed, so if anything this supports it being the dagger), and the thing that springs to mind is the dagger.

 

We're told that Fain's powers come from a combination of the DO's powers and from Mordeth's (SL's) powers.  The books state that Fain was once a darkfriend but was summoned to Shayol Ghul and there the DO changed him from the inside out, creating a hound that could hunt Rand, Perrin, and Mat.  But the DO also imparted some sort of himself other than the ability to feel the ta'veren to Fain, whether he meant to or not.  Then when Fain went to SL, he was caught by the fog and although he should have died, he didn't.  SL fought the DO in Fain (because if you remember, even though Mordeth is evil, he still hates the DO and therefore his power is separate from the DO's power), and even though Mordeth couldn't defeat the DO he lessened the DO's influence on Fain and melded with Fain.  Fain can summon the fog of SL and is much stronger in many ways than a normal man.  The full extent of his power hasn't been revealed, but we know he can ignore the DO's commands at will.  He is a free agent with incredible power. 

 

All that to say, the change in Fain wasn't the dagger, he got hold of the dagger after he was attacked by the fog in SL.  The only reason Fain went for the dagger is because Mordeth is a part of him and the dagger was part of Mordeth's collection.  Fain didn't need the dagger, he just wanted it because it was a part of him, in the book it says he felt complete once he got the dagger.  The dagger itself has no effect on Fain, Mordeth is already a part of him.  So, your argument that any changes in Fain are because of the dagger is wrong.  Fain also shows no sign of having a special amount of luck, unlike Mat.  Technically they both were touched by Mordeth, so if Mat's luck comes from Mordeth, then Fain should have the same luck (especially because Mordeth has more of an effect on Fain than on Mat). 

 

It just doesn't make sense to me that Mat's luck comes from the dagger.  There is nothing that suggests Mordeth has more luck than any other man, he was just evil and a good talker...like Wormtongue  :)  Mat's luck has to come from within himself, something unique to him, like you suggested.  But his luck wouldn't have anything to do with the dagger.  Each of the three ta'veren have an extra addition to themselves besides being ta'veren.  Rand can channel, Perrin is a Wolfbrother, and Mat is lucky...extremely lucky.  Maybe being ta'veren enhances each of their traits, but each of them belongs to themselves.  As the story and each book progresses, Rand, Perrin, and Mat's additional traits also progress.  You could argue that each trait has nothing to do with the other, but as the story goes forward, each trait progresses and grows stronger as Rand, Perrin, and Mat each grow stronger.

 

Also, Rand didn't channel until after being in SL, and Perrin didn't start to change into a Wolfbrother until after SL, so the argument could be made that SL affected them too.  They all 3 messed with the treasure.  Mat was obviously affected the most because he took something.  But (i'm about to make an absurd argument for the proof that the dagger didn't give mat his luck), by touching the treasure Mat and Perrin were influenced by SL and they got the powers of luck and wolfbrother.  Rand's channeling came from him being the DR, not from SL, so he doesn't count.  Since you argue that Mat's luck came from SL, then Perrin's wolfiness should have come from there too.  You might argue that Mat taking the dagger out of SL gave him the power, but that wouldn't work because all it did was almost kill him.  Perrin and Mat both messed with treasure.  It doesn't make sense to say Mat's luck was from the dagger.

 

Also, I would assume that you aren't a Ta'veren from the cradle, as you mature you come into being a Ta'veren.  The story begins when Perrin, Rand, and Mat were around the ages of 18-20, the age where manhood and maturation begin.  They could have exhibited ta'veren stuff at that point because that's when it started it's exhibition in them.  Also, Moraine knew they were ta'veren before anything ever happened in them to point it out.  Sure little things happened all through their life up until TEOTW such as them surviving diseases or other things in their childhood, but the major stuff didn't start happening until they hit their manhood.  It makes sense to say that as they mature, so does the ta'veren within them.  So you can't make the argument that Rand, Mat, and Perrin weren't always Ta'veren. 

 

Also, what evidence do you have that says that they won't be ta'veren the rest of their lives?  I've never heard of that, but I could be wrong.

 

sorry it's such a long post...I had a lot to say

 

Mat's luck is his own and grows as he grows.  The dagger had nothing to do with it.

 

Hmm, Rand channeled before he went to Shadar Logoth . . . When he healed Bela, so she could keep up . . .Within the first 150 pages of The Eye of the World

[Jessica]

The first quote is in chapter 30 of TDR on page 280 (hard cover).

 

 

He only meant to gamble an hour or so before finding a ship, just long enough to add a few coins to his purse, but he won.  He had always won more than he lost, as far as he could remember, and there had been times with Hurin, and in Shienar, when six or eight tosses in a row won for him.  Tonight, every toss won.  Every toss.

 

From this quote Mat thought he had some luck in the past, but he was not super lucky.  The quote seems to hint that he might have had more luck with Hurin and in Shienar (which is after Shadar Logoth).  However, in the next quote it is spelled out more clearly.

 

Chapter 30 TDR on page 283:

 

He knew he was lucky.  He could remember always being lucky.  But somehow, his memories from Emond’s Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving.  Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been up to, and Nynaeve able to see through the defenses he put up.  But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky.  The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth.

 

And then a little lower on the page, he Mat thinks on why he is so lucky that night.

 

Maybe it was something the Aes Sedia did.  Something they did Healing me.  By accident, maybe.  That could be it.  Better that the other.  Those bloody Aes Sedia must have done it to me.

 

From this chapter Mat thinks his luck comes from a combination of the dagger and the Healing.  Yes, Mat could be wrong, but it is a strong statement.

 

[Bela]

What if the dagger corrupted the way Mat's pulling effects the pattern. Ta'veren's effect chance, and that chance is balanced as Rand's POVs prove. But if the dagger somehow distorted his Ta'vereness so that the chances weren't balanced, but mostly good. Instead of 50/50, maybe like 80/20.

[Mr Ares]

When he is called Gambler, they use it as a title, not as a profession.

He was only called Gambler after the dagger. So he might only have gained the title after. Given the weight of evidence all points towards it being the dagger, I don't really see the need to complicate something that is really very simple.

Also remember, Perrin's unique ability to talk with wolves didn't manifest itself until Elyas guided him - after Mat got the dagger.

Perrin's ability is not unique. Mat's is, as is his situation. And we can specifically date Perrin to after Elyas. We can date the first increase in Mat's luck to after gaining the dagger, the second increase to being Healed of its malign influence.

 

So all their ta'veren powers started manifesting and the same time.

There are no ta'veren powers. Rand's channeling and Perrin's wolfbrotherhood are not related to their ta'verenness. Nor is Mat's luck. It is, however, per his own POVs, related to the dagger.

 

He also explains about his luck being in waves in that chapter.

He is more lucky after gaining the dagger, more still after losing it. Before, runs of 6 to 8 tosses in a row in his favour were not the norm, during they were, after he did even better.

 

We're told that Fain's powers come from a combination of the DO's powers and from Mordeth's (SL's) powers.

His ability to find Rand clearly comes from being made the Shadow's hound, the ability to corrupt poeple clearly from Mordeth, but other abilities, like the ability to torture Fades, or his illusions, do not seem clearly related to either. They are, however, unique to him, as is Mat's luck. We see two people corrupted by long term exposure to SL, and both manifest abilities that are out of the ordinary.

Fain can summon the fog of SL

No he can't.

 

All that to say, the change in Fain wasn't the dagger

Nor did I say it was. I said Fain has changed, gained powers, after SL, as did Mat. It is not the dagger, per se, it is SL, and the dagger is as corrupted as any other part of that city. Fain was corrupted by a different part of the city, but corrupted he was, and gained powers he did. The two people we see corrupted by long term exposure both manifest powers. One is clearly down to Mordeth and SL, but Mat is apparently caused by something completely different.

So, your argument that any changes in Fain are because of the dagger is wrong.

Good job that is not my argument, then. This misunderstanding, is it deliberate or accidental?

Fain also shows no sign of having a special amount of luck, unlike Mat.

Nor is anyone claimng that he did, so why bring it up? The point is simple: Fain gained powers post SL, this is due partly to his own corrupted nature, partly due to Mordeth and his corrupted nature, partly due to the city, and its corrupted nature. Mat clearly links his own new abilities to the dagger and his subsequent Healing from it. Anyone who disagrees is thus choosing to disregard the evidence in favour of their own fantasies.

Technically they both were touched by Mordeth, so if Mat's luck comes from Mordeth, then Fain should have the same luck (especially because Mordeth has more of an effect on Fain than on Mat).

NO! NO! NO! Only one was touched by Mordeth directly. Both were corrupted by the city, and both gained powers. But they were corrupted in different ways, and gained different powers, and one was Healed. Given that Mat's luck was at its highest after being Healed, Fain sould not display the same heights. Furthermore, they were affected in different ways, so why should we expect both to manifest the same abilities? Your argument is absurd. Mine is supported by the evidence. It was the dagger. Such is clearly shown in Mat's POV.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me that Mat's luck comes from the dagger.

Next you'll be saying it doesn't make sense to you that Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

There is nothing that suggests Mordeth has more luck than any other man

No-one is suggesting otherwise, so drop this strawman.

But his luck wouldn't have anything to do with the dagger.

Except for the fact that after gaining the dagger it improved, and after losing the dagger it improves, and Mat specifically references bnoth with regards to the dagger, and that the dagger is responsible. There is nothing to support any theory to the contrary.

Rand can channel, Perrin is a Wolfbrother, and Mat is lucky...extremely lucky.

He was quite lucky, then he took the dagger and became very lucky, then he was Healed and became extremely lucky. And he dates these improvements to gaining and losing the dagger

 

Also, Rand didn't channel until after being in SL, and Perrin didn't start to change into a Wolfbrother until after SL, so the argument could be made that SL affected them too.

No, it couldn't, unless you want to look like an idiot.

Since you argue that Mat's luck came from SL, then Perrin's wolfiness should have come from there too.

No. Mat was connected to the dagger for a long time, and displayed personality changes on account of it. He dates his improvements in luck to gaining the dagger, and being Healed from it. This is not true of Perrin. Perrin first manifested his abilities after encountering Elyas, so we can date it to Elyas. Rand began channeling before that. Mat's ability is unique, as is his situation with regards to Shadar Logoth. Anyone else would have died long before Mat did - he was Healed repeatedly, before the dagger was removed. He was not connected to Mordeth, Fain was. He was not adapted by Shai'tan beforehand, Fain was. Mat's abilitites are unique, as is his situation, but the only comparable situation is someone who also displays unique abilities. So your examples are absurd, this theory isn't.

It doesn't make sense to say Mat's luck was from the dagger.

Yes, it does.

 

If your argument is that the healing gave Mat the luck, then it wouldn't be the dagger that gave him luck, it would be whatever the Aes Sedai did to him during the healing.

We see improvement in Mat's luck after taking the dagger, then another improvement after Healing.

 

Also, my comparing Mat's taint to Perrin's taint wasn't an actual argument, I realize it made no sense.

Then why did you say it?

 

But it still doesn't make sense that the luck come from the dagger.

Yes, it does.

If his luck started after the healing, then it would be because of the healing.

It came in two stages - the first, after getting the dagger, the second after the Healing.

The dagger IS Mordeth.

No. Mordeth is a man, who became a disembodied soul, who became part of Fain. The dagger is a shiny thing Mat picked up, that later got nicked by Fain.

They are one and the same.

Apart from the fact they are completely different, I agree.

If anything Fain/Mordeth should have an unbelievable amount of luck because he is consumed by the same taint that gave Mat his luck.

Why? Their situations are different? The corruption they were exposed to, Mat's Healing's over time and his final separation is clearly different to Fain being altered, then melded with Mordeth, then not being Healed. The two situations are different, but in each case we have someone with a long term connection to SL displaying more than mortal powers.

Fain has more Mordeth than Mat, therefore he would have much more luck...if the dagger was actually what gave him the luck.

You're just not getting it, are you?

 

I still think its from Mat being Ta'veren. What about Hawkwing winning at dice all the time?

Care to provide a quote?

 

My question would be, why? Why would healing Mat from a tainted evil dagger produce extreme luck? That seems so random.

It is, rather.

Then you have evidence that other Ta'veren have been lucky with dice. It would follow reason that Mat is lucky because he is Ta'veren.

Only if one ignores Mat's thoughts, and the dice, which are unique to Mat - as is this situation. Unique ability, unique situation. Makes sense. Unique ability, situation shared with others? Not so much.

[Krakalakachkn]

Strawman?  what does that even mean?

 

Also, i like your quote "Nemo me impune lacessit".  The cask of amontillado is a great story, very well written.  Or maybe you're Scottish.  Either way, a great quote.  It also seems to be your mission statement...you've given your arguments against me a little spice and ire.  Not that I blame you, from your POV I'm arguing a stupid argument that has no basis.  My question was that we see no evidence of luck in Fain but we see luck in Mat.  Your argument that Fain and Mat express different abilities on account of their influence under SL makes sense, but I rather think that since Fain is consumed by Mordeth, he gets Mordeth's powers.  If Mat's luck comes from the dagger, which has Mordeth's taint, then it is a part of Mordeth.  So wouldn't it seem to make sense that Fain would have some luck thats more than the average human?  I could very well be wrong in saying that, and I wouldn't want to deprive anyone of tearing what I've said apart.

 

Are there any theories as to why the dagger gives him luck?  I seem to remember there being a gemstone in the hilt?  I'm curious if there are any ideas about what the dagger is that can be backed up by the books or Jordan.

[Nightstrike]

Your argument that Fain and Mat express different abilities on account of their influence under SL makes sense, but I rather think that since Fain is consumed by Mordeth, he gets Mordeth's powers.  If Mat's luck comes from the dagger, which has Mordeth's taint, then it is a part of Mordeth.  So wouldn't it seem to make sense that Fain would have some luck thats more than the average human?  I could very well be wrong in saying that, and I wouldn't want to deprive anyone of tearing what I've said apart.

 

Are there any theories as to why the dagger gives him luck?  I seem to remember there being a gemstone in the hilt?  I'm curious if there are any ideas about what the dagger is that can be backed up by the books or Jordan.

Don't feel bad about the disagreements. Everybody's got a right to their opinions.

 

I think RJ said that Fain is some weird fusion between Mordeth and the original Fain. With a little switching between one and the other occasionally, perhaps (my own thought). My theory (just my own theory, not RJ's own thing) is that the ta'veren chance twisting and the evil sort of influencing the pattern has come together in Mat.

 

I don't know what you wanna know about the Dagger. You can search "Thus Spake the Creator", wotmania or RJ's blog. Maybe even look it up on Encyclopaedia WoT. I know that RJ said (on Dragoncon '05) that the Dagger is what Fain uses to influence people with - it's not his own doing. He also said that the Dagger is corrupting and evil.

 

RJ's blog:

For Anonymous — a busy poster — the ruby in Padan Fain’s dagger is just a ruby.  Of course, the entire dagger is corrupted and corrupting.

 

 

Good luck with reading the stuff from RJ's interviews. Lots of interesting stuff to read there.

 

 

[Chel Vanin]

Chapter 30 TDR on page 283:

 

He knew he was lucky.  He could remember always being lucky.  But somehow, his memories from Emond’s Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving.  Certainly he had gotten away with a great deal, but he could remember also being caught in pranks he had been up to, and Nynaeve able to see through the defenses he put up.  But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky.  The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth.

 

And then a little lower on the page, he Mat thinks on why he is so lucky that night.

 

Maybe it was something the Aes Sedia did.  Something they did Healing me.  By accident, maybe.  That could be it.  Better that the other.  Those bloody Aes Sedia must have done it to me.

 

From this chapter Mat thinks his luck comes from a combination of the dagger and the Healing.  Yes, Mat could be wrong, but it is a strong statement.

 

 

It is a strong statement, but here again I'm going to put my spin on this. I think at this point in the night Mat is a little unnerved by all his luck and he is asking himself "how/why is this happening?" I think that Mat is just grasping at reasons other than him being Ta'veren, (which, at this stage in the series he didn't like to think about or even want to be associated with the term at all) and a convenient scapegoat is those "bloody Aes Sedai." Far more convenient to blame them for his unnatrual behavior than to admit to himself that he is ta'veren and is causing the twisting of chance. In short, I think Mat is trying to explain away the effects to himself that his ta'veren-ness causes. Kind of like being in denial, which I think fits in with Mat's character perfectly.

 

I could be wrong, but in support of my previous arguments...

 

 

He also explains about his luck being in waves in that chapter.

He is more lucky after gaining the dagger, more still after losing it. Before, runs of 6 to 8 tosses in a row in his favour were not the norm, during they were, after he did even better.

 

For a time he did better, yes, but I think this is explained by the "wave" of his luck being at the peak, not because of the healing. Maybe I'm wrong. Also, I mentioned earlier that he lost eleven tosses in a row in the chapter where Mat thinks of his luck being in waves, so even if the healing did make him lucky, it didn't just permanently increase his luck.  Unless you're suggesting the dagger gave Mat luck that came in waves?

 

I still think its from Mat being Ta'veren. What about Hawkwing winning at dice all the time?

 

Care to provide a quote?

 

TDR page 79 direct quote goes...

"It is said," Lan put in, "that there were times when people in the same room as Hawkwing spoke truth when they meant to lie, made decisions they had not even known they were contemplating. Times when every toss of the dice, every turn of the cards, went his way. But only times."

 

This could just be a legend twisted in the last thousand years such as the 100 duels in a day that Hawkwing supposedly fought, but I think this is true about Hawkwing. Take, for instance, that Lan is the one who says it. Lan doesn't speak a whole lot, and when he does he usually has something important to say. Also he talks about people in the same room speaking truth, and making spur of the moment decisions which we have seen occur around Perrin and Rand, so that part of the statement seems reasonable. With Mat having his luck, the rest of the statement makes sense too, because Mat doesn't ALWAYS win. There are TIMES when he always wins but there were apparently times when Hawkwing always won too.

 

Thats just a long explanation of why I think that passage is valid.

 

Then you have evidence that other Ta'veren have been lucky with dice. It would follow reason that Mat is lucky because he is Ta'veren.

 

Only if one ignores Mat's thoughts, and the dice, which are unique to Mat - as is this situation. Unique ability, unique situation. Makes sense. Unique ability, situation shared with others? Not so much.

 

The dice in Mat's head ARE unique to Mat but his luck with dice was seen previously with Hawkwing. Just to clarify. And who says Hawkwing didn't hear the dice either? Just speculation.

 

 

EDIT: When was the first time we hear evidence of Mat hearing dice in his head? Seems like he made passing references to "those dice in his head" before we actually get the rolling dice and him wondering what they mean.

[Kaznen]

I disagree about there not being "ta'veren powers."  They needed something other then charisma to set them apart from the rest of the world.  Hawkwing was already a prince after all.

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Strawman?  what does that even mean?

Look it up.

 

Or maybe you're Scottish. Either way, a great quote.

English, but the saying is part of the Royal coat of arms for Scotland, and the motto of the Order of the Thistle.

I rather think that since Fain is consumed by Mordeth, he gets Mordeth's powers.

He does - Mordeth was able to corrupt people, we see Fain can do that (as Ordeith, for example). Luck is not one of his powers.

If Mat's luck comes from the dagger, which has Mordeth's taint, then it is a part of Mordeth.

No. Mordeth is more like a catalyst for the corrpution of Aridhol/SL. But it is not part of him. The reverse, if anything. The taint has SL power, not Mordeth's.

 

I'm going to put my spin on this.

Read ignore the evidence. He dates it to taking the dagger, not to becoming ta'veren. He dates further improvement to the severance from the dagger.

 

He also explains about his luck being in waves in that chapter.

He is more lucky after gaining the dagger, more still after losing it. Before, runs of 6 to 8 tosses in a row in his favour were not the norm, during they were, after he did even better.

For a time he did better, yes, but I think this is explained by the "wave" of his luck being at the peak, not because of the healing.

The wave never peaked so high before. His luck was above average to begin with. Then it becomes even better. Then it becomes better still. He never had a night so good bfore the Healing, he never had the luck he had while with the dagger before he got it. If you want to keep with waves, fine, but it doesn't change the fact that the waves were never so high before as the could be during during, and never so high during as they could be after.

 

EDIT: When was the first time we hear evidence of Mat hearing dice in his head?

TDR 52.

 

I disagree about there not being "ta'veren powers."

Then you disagree with the evidence. The only "ta'veren power" is ta'veren itself. They may have other powers, but these are completely unrelated to their being ta'veren.

[Kaznen]

I disagree about there not being "ta'veren powers."

Then you disagree with the evidence. The only "ta'veren power" is ta'veren itself. They may have other powers, but these are completely unrelated to their being ta'veren.

Are they really, or do they have those powers so to help them do what they need to do as ta'veren?

[Mr Ares]

I disagree about there not being "ta'veren powers."

Then you disagree with the evidence. The only "ta'veren power" is ta'veren itself. They may have other powers, but these are completely unrelated to their being ta'veren.

Are they really,

Yes.

or do they have those powers so to help them do what they need to do as ta'veren?

No.

 

[Kaznen]

If Rand couldn't channel and Perrin couldn't communicate with wolves they would never have found the Horn of Valor.

 

If Mat wasn't lucky he would never have been able to leave TV and ultimatly rescue Eggy, Nyn, and Elyane.

 

If Perrin couldn't dream walk he wouldn't have been able to defend teh Two Rivers against the Trollocs.

 

Without Mat's luck he wouldn't have killed Couldin, gotten the Band, or knocked the Seanchan on their butts (stratigic expertise only goes so far when the enemy is doing want you wanted as if you were giving the orders.

 

If Rand couldn't channel he wouldn't have been able to defeat 4 forsaken.

 

Because they were ta'veren they had tasks they needed to do, which they couldn't have done without "ta'veren" powers.

[Chel Vanin]

I don't think that their being ta'veren gave them those powers though. Being ta'veren directed their threads in the pattern into situations where Mat would gain memories, or Perrin would save the two rivers etc. But Perrin didn't become a wolfbrother because he's ta'veren. Neither did Mat gain memories because he's ta'veren. They each gained those "powers", if you will, from a different cause. As for Perrin being a wolfbrother, I'm  not sure, but it seems likely to have been in his blood, whether or not he was ta'veren he was going to be a wolfbrother, but I'm not sure what causes a person to be a wolfbrother. Mat gained his memories from going into the ter'angreal, yes his being ta'veren led him to rhuidean, but  his being ta'veren didn't grant him those memories, that was the finns. As for rand channeling, I'm pretty sure all channelers have a gene or something that allows them to touch the true source, so he had that from birth and he wasn't a ta'veren until shortly before Moiraine showed up so he definitely didn't get channeling from being ta'veren.

 

Basically Ta'veren may have played a part in putting Mat Perrin and Rand in place to gain their "powers" but being ta'veren doesn't grant them any powers beyond the twisting of chance, one-in-a-thousand decicions etc.

 

Hastily written post, if there's grammar errors I'm sorry, its quite late here.

[Kaznen]

Well Mat's memories were directed by the pattern.  When he went through the doorway in Tear they told him he had to go to Rheduin(?) or die.  If he didn't go there he will have "side stepped the winds of fate."

 

But I'm not saying his memories were ta'veren powers, just his luck.  And maybe Perrin could have rallied the TR without his wolf brotherness and Verin and Alanna would still have been there but he would not have been able to learn the waygate was still open, fight slayer, and learn where the trollocs were unless he walked the wolf dream and his hightened senses helped him rescue MAt's mom and sisters and the Luhans(?).

 

Without the wolf brother powers the Trollocs would have overrun the TR.  The people were heavilly outnumbered after all.

[Mr Ares]

If Rand couldn't channel and Perrin couldn't communicate with wolves they would never have found the Horn of Valor.

So what?

 

If Mat wasn't lucky he would never have been able to leave TV and ultimatly rescue Eggy, Nyn, and Elyane.

Eventually, he probably would have left. Just differently.

 

If Perrin couldn't dream walk he wouldn't have been able to defend teh Two Rivers against the Trollocs.

Yes, he could.

 

Without Mat's luck he wouldn't have killed Couldin,

Why not?

 

If Rand couldn't channel he wouldn't have been able to defeat 4 forsaken.

So what? If he couldn't channel, he wouldn't be the Dragon, so that wouldn't really be his job. He'd just be some farmer.

 

Because they were ta'veren they had tasks they needed to do, which they couldn't have done without "ta'veren" powers.

No. Rand's ability to channel comes from his genetics and his soul, and is completely unrelated to his being ta'veren, which is down to the Wheel's current, short term need. There is no such thing as "ta'veren powers". People are ta'veren or they are not. If they are, in confers no extra powers, beside ta'veren itself. It is that simple.

 

But I'm not saying his memories were ta'veren powers, just his luck.

Which ignores the evidence.

And maybe Perrin could have rallied the TR without his wolf brotherness

He did. It was his ta'verenness that rallied them.

and Verin and Alanna would still have been there

Nothing to do with wolfbrotherness, but Verin did express interest in ta'veren.

but he would not have been able to learn the waygate was still open,

He might have worked that out by himself.

fight slayer,

He could, just not in the wolf dream.

his hightened senses helped him rescue MAt's mom and sisters and the Luhans(?).

So what? Not important to the Pattern.

 

Without the wolf brother powers the Trollocs would have overrun the TR.  The people were heavilly outnumbered after all.

So what? Him being a ta'veren is still not the cause of him being a wolfbrother. The two powers are wholly unrelated. It might be that the Pattern made him a ta'veren because of his latent wolfbrotherness, but that is still not a ta'veren power. It is a wolfbrother being made a ta'veren.

[Yllek]

I don't think that being tavereen caused any of the boys to obtain their 'powers' or the other way around.

 

We know that Rand's birth was caused by events that occurred thousands of years ago... or rather that events over the past several thousand years led to his birth.  I believe that is also the case with both Matt and Perrin, we just aren't privy to information regarding their ancestors.  They are Tavereen because the pattern needs them to be, they are connected because they have to be (I've speculated that perhaps Matt and Perrin ARE portions of Rand's thread, which is why they are tied together, but I digress).  They have their 'powers' because the pattern demanded it. 

 

In short, their 'powers' and their tavereen-ness is a result of the pattern's need.  Nothing more, nothing less.

[Juggler]

It's amazing how off topic this threads gone lol

 

I was thinking regarding the Tower that who better to rescue moiraine than Thom especially seeing the conditions for visiting the Aelfinn and eelfin, regarding No Iron, no implements of music, and the snakes and foxes game. "music to blind and Iron to bind" I think that's explaining how they will get in and out taking moiraine, I also think Moiraine and Thom will get a bit frisky lol

 

Off topic, I'm pretty sure Berelain gets with Galad too there is one line early in the book about Min seeing her with a man dressed in white who better than than new grand poohbah of the COTL

[Osan`gar]

If Rand couldn't channel and Perrin couldn't communicate with wolves they would never have found the Horn of Valor.

If Mat wasn't lucky he would never have been able to leave TV and ultimatly rescue Eggy, Nyn, and Elyane.

If Perrin couldn't dream walk he wouldn't have been able to defend teh Two Rivers against the Trollocs.

Without Mat's luck he wouldn't have killed Couldin, gotten the Band, or knocked the Seanchan on their butts (stratigic expertise only goes so far when the enemy is doing want you wanted as if you were giving the orders.

If Rand couldn't channel he wouldn't have been able to defeat 4 forsaken.

Because they were ta'veren they had tasks they needed to do, which they couldn't have done without "ta'veren" powers.

 

i disagree... artur hawkwing was the only other tavern mentioned in the series and nowhere that i have seen has he ever been documented with powers other than the luck twisitng and people manipulation abilities which are part of being taveren. besides do you use a hammer to drive a screw? or do you use a screw driver? i believe the pattern seized upon the best tools available to it... other than rand who was foredained.

[mb]

"music to blind and Iron to bind"

 

The whole is actually "courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind".