moiraines warder

[Mr Ares]

The loosing of the bond might have been from a disconnection between the two worlds due to the doorway melting.

There is nothing to support such a thing being possible.

Nothing? After Elayne bonded Rand, she noticed that she could not track him in Telaranrhiod; I think also Birgitte.

When a warder and the one it is bonded to are in two different worlds, the connection between those two worlds I think would need to exist in order for the bond to remain.

Nothing. If you disagree, provide a quote. Who says the connection between the two worlds no longer exists - the TOG and the Tear doorway are still around. When we have seen people go from one world to another, we have not seen anything happen to the bond. We have seen it cut only by death and severing, and we know the former does not apply.

 

I still don't understand why everyone thinks Cyndane/Lanfear was Healed. I can't make that make sense to me.

 

Nynaeve Healed Siuan and Leane, and so the Aes Sedai in Salidar can work the Healing.  But apart from Delana there doesn't seem to be any Black Ajah that we know of (plus Delana is Gray and so far as we know not a skilled Healer) in Salidar.

Key phrase - that we know of. There could be any number of others. As for why they think Cyndane was Healed, we think that because of this thing called evidence, this being the only conclusion with any to support it. The only thing we have seen give a drop in strength of the type seen here - a reduction of base strength, not amount available like a shield - is the stilling and subsequent Healing of Siuan and Leane. As that is the only thing to give a drop in strength of the sort we see, it is therefore the most likely conclusion.

[mb]

The loosing of the bond might have been from a disconnection between the two worlds due to the doorway melting.

There is nothing to support such a thing being possible.

Nothing? After Elayne bonded Rand, she noticed that she could not track him in Telaranrhiod; I think also Birgitte.

When a warder and the one it is bonded to are in two different worlds, the connection between those two worlds I think would need to exist in order for the bond to remain.

Nothing. If you disagree, provide a quote. Who says the connection between the two worlds no longer exists - the TOG and the Tear doorway are still around. When we have seen people go from one world to another, we have not seen anything happen to the bond. We have seen it cut only by death and severing, and we know the former does not apply.

 

The following seems to support my view with at least the Aelfinn/Eelfinn world::

Moiraine and Lanfear might have cut the connection between worlds with their channelling. At a booksigning, Jordan said that the door way burned in part because both were channelling and the world on the other side of the doorway has a radically different set of natural laws (Original WOTFAQ).

 

The connection between the land of the Eelfinn and the main world was probably snapped when the doorway ter'angreal was destroyed, snapping the Warder bond as well. Or more specifically, causing Lan's bond to transfer to Myrelle (because the bond could not work between worlds, which meant Moiraine was dead as far it was concerned, and this triggered the transfer). Lan could not feel Moiraine anymore, but he could feel Myrelle, and assumed Moiraine was dead. The ter'angreal doorway in Tear connects to a different realm (of the Aelfinn), and the Tower of Ghenjei is closed unless the right mark is made in the right way, so these connections may not have been able to keep Moiraine’s bond to Lan operational when the connection to the Eelfinn’s realm broke.

From this page::

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=25

 

[Mr Ares]

The following seems to support my view with at least the Aelfinn/Eelfinn world::

Moiraine and Lanfear might have cut the connection between worlds with their channelling. At a booksigning, Jordan said that the door way burned in part because both were channelling and the world on the other side of the doorway has a radically different set of natural laws (Original WOTFAQ).

 

The connection between the land of the Eelfinn and the main world was probably snapped when the doorway ter'angreal was destroyed, snapping the Warder bond as well. Or more specifically, causing Lan's bond to transfer to Myrelle (because the bond could not work between worlds, which meant Moiraine was dead as far it was concerned, and this triggered the transfer). Lan could not feel Moiraine anymore, but he could feel Myrelle, and assumed Moiraine was dead. The ter'angreal doorway in Tear connects to a different realm (of the Aelfinn), and the Tower of Ghenjei is closed unless the right mark is made in the right way, so these connections may not have been able to keep Moiraine’s bond to Lan operational when the connection to the Eelfinn’s realm broke.

Almost entirely speculation, everything except the bolded sentence. Using speculation to back up your speculation? Doesn't help your case any. Even the bolded part only says why it burned, not why the bond snapped. All this talk about different worlds (and given that Lanfear was held by both the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn there must be some way between worlds) is unsupported. We know of two and only two things that can break a warder bond. We know she didn't die. therefore the only option is that she was severed. Burnt out. Cut off from the Source.

[mb]

All our theories are just speculation.  Moiraine's & Lanfear's case is the only example where a different world is involved.  Only way we can be entirely certain is to wait until Moiraine returns.

 

Lanfear's/Cyndane's treatment might have been from the Dark One; not necessarily from going through the door.

 

None of the books tell that death and severing are the only ways to break a warder bond.

 

Like I told earlier in this post, we can only be certain only when Moiraine returns.

 

[algspkr]

I always liked the idea of her becoming Rand's warder, she certainly has behaved like she was.

[Mr Ares]

All our theories are just speculation.

Don't be obtuse. I was specifically referring to your claim that it backed you up. Your speculation was backed up by someone elses speculation, not by any actual evidence.

Only way we can be entirely certain is to wait until Moiraine returns.

In the meantime, we have evidence available to us. Should we just ignore it? Or should we, perhaps, use it to back up our theories? If yes, we can follow the evidence to just one conclusion, the one I have already outlined.

 

Lanfear's/Cyndane's treatment might have been from the Dark One; not necessarily from going through the door.

Only if Shai'tan is incredibly stupid, given that it would involve reducing the abilities of His tool, a tool whose value He has already shown that he is aware of, to no gain to himself. In short, He shot Himself in the foot.

 

None of the books tell that death and severing are the only ways to break a warder bond.

What do they tell us? They tell us that death can break a bond. They tell us severing can. They do not tell us of anything else that can. Given the evidence we have available to us at this point in time, what conclusions can we reach? That Moirane and Lanfear were severed. That Cyndane was Healed by a woman. These are the only things supported by evidence. No other conclusion is.

 

Like I told earlier in this post, we can only be certain only when Moiraine returns.

The same with any theory, so why take part in speculation at all? We have been given certain facts so far. RJ often foreshadows things. We could make use of the evidence we have provided for us, we could ignore it. I, for one, choose to make use of it. To look at the evidence, and attempt to deduce from that something of the shape of things to come. We cannot know that this will prove the answer, not until we are given the answer. We can examine the evidence, and work things out from that, and say, with a reasonable degree of certainty, that this is the conclusion the available evidence supports.

[mb]

Like I pointed earlier, Elayne could not track Rand when she went into Telaranrhiod after she bonded him.

That could be one piece of evidence that might support the no-connection theory.

 

[Mr Ares]

Like I pointed earlier

Like I pointed out earlier, provide a quote.

[xander]

The door in Tear was not destroyed, however i agree that it is likely she was stilled/burnt out, or else why would Cyndane be less powerful than Lanfear.

 

Somewhere on the forum there are a few posts that suggest that Lanfear gained here super one power strength from the Finns.  If this is true I tihnk it would follow that she also gained her striking hawtness from the Finns as well. 

 

She wanted to be the best and the most admired and she got it.  She wanted LT and what better way to grab him than being the hottest and most powerful babe around?  She was so hot, powerful, and desirable that the DO chooses her and lets her choose her new super evil club name.  I think this is solid if the theory about the Finns granting her strength is true.

 

The reason I bring this up is that if this is true then when she dies in the doorway the DO grabs her and reincarnates her as she originally was.  The gifts the Finns granted her fade at death and Mierin Eronaile is what he gets instead of his Uber Hawt mistress of the dark.  He revokes her old name and sticks her with Cyndane because now she's just the same as everyone else.

 

[mb]

Like I pointed earlier

Like I pointed out earlier, provide a quote.

 

here is the post, bold the relevant part:

The loosing of the bond might have been from a disconnection between the two worlds due to the doorway melting.

There is nothing to support such a thing being possible.

Nothing? After Elayne bonded Rand, she noticed that she could not track him in Telaranrhiod; I think also Birgitte.

When a warder and the one it is bonded to are in two different worlds, the connection between those two worlds I think would need to exist in order for the bond to remain.

 

[Nightstrike]

I searched Encyclopaedia WoT and found this:

WH,Ch27 - Elayne and Egwene meet in Tel'aran'rhiod in Emond's Field. In Tel'aran'rhiod Elayne can still feel a distant bond to Rand and Birgitte but no sense of direction.

 

It seems that the bond is still there, it just feels distant. The warder bond is not snapped when they wake up, so it makes sense that they can still feel it in T'a'r.

 

I find it very, very likely that Lanfear got severed when she and Moiraine fell through into finnland. I also find it likely that she got transmigrated and then Healed by a woman. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is out of the question that her strength loss comes from something we don't know about so far. RJ wrote the story and he might have wanted to surprize us.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Somewhere on the forum there are a few posts that suggest that Lanfear gained here super one power strength from the Finns. If this is true...

It isn't. She visited the Finns in TFoH, we have no reason to suspect a prior visit, and every reason not to.

 

Like I pointed earlier

Like I pointed out earlier, provide a quote.

 

here is the post, bold the relevant part:

The loosing of the bond might have been from a disconnection between the two worlds due to the doorway melting.

There is nothing to support such a thing being possible.

Nothing? After Elayne bonded Rand, she noticed that she could not track him in Telaranrhiod; I think also Birgitte.

When a warder and the one it is bonded to are in two different worlds, the connection between those two worlds I think would need to exist in order for the bond to remain.

Seriously? Is that it? My response to that was "provide a quote." You didn't. Now you repeat what you said earlier, and I tell you to provide a quote, which was so lacking previously, and you repost the post that made me ask for a quote in the first place!? The stupidity on display is staggering. Are you actually going to provide a quote to back up your position, or are you going to stick to providing quotes of what your position is when I already know it?

 

I searched Encyclopaedia WoT and found this:

WH,Ch27 - Elayne and Egwene meet in Tel'aran'rhiod in Emond's Field. In Tel'aran'rhiod Elayne can still feel a distant bond to Rand and Birgitte but no sense of direction.

See, mb, this is what a quote looks like. It's even from Encyclopaedia WoT, a site you are so fond of linking others to. And what does this say? Even in different worlds, the bond holds. Hell, Verin's bond to Tomas wasn't broken when she travelled by Portal Stone in TGH, and was missing from the world for a few months. So we have absolutely no reason to believe that destroying the Doorway would sever the bond, especially given that the other Doorway and the ToG were both still around.

 

But I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is out of the question that her strength loss comes from something we don't know about so far. RJ wrote the story and he might have wanted to surprize us.

We probably do have some surpises in store for us. But the evidence we have indicates severing, so that is the best theory we have. Not entirely out of the question, but unlikely.

[Thor]

I reserve my opinion about this until it becomes clear exactly how much power loss occurs when healed from severing by the same sex.

 

because clearly lanfear/cyndanne did not lose anywhere near as much proportionally as siuan and leanne.

[mb]

Seriously? Is that it? My response to that was "provide a quote." You didn't. Now you repeat what you said earlier, and I tell you to provide a quote, which was so lacking previously, and you repost the post that made me ask for a quote in the first place!? The stupidity on display is staggering. Are you actually going to provide a quote to back up your position, or are you going to stick to providing quotes of what your position is when I already know it?

I interpreted your statement as tell where I pointed the statement.  If you worded the statement differently, I might have understood.

I did quote an external source in between the two posts, if that is what you meant; if I find another place that supports my position, I would quote it.

 

 

I searched Encyclopaedia WoT and found this:

WH,Ch27 - Elayne and Egwene meet in Tel'aran'rhiod in Emond's Field. In Tel'aran'rhiod Elayne can still feel a distant bond to Rand and Birgitte but no sense of direction.

I have looked on various pages of that site, but I have not seen that; can you give a link to the page?

By the way, I had to use "Index" page instead of the "Search" page because the "Search" page does not work on my computer.

 

[Nightstrike]

I searched Encyclopaedia WoT and found this:

WH,Ch27 - Elayne and Egwene meet in Tel'aran'rhiod in Emond's Field. In Tel'aran'rhiod Elayne can still feel a distant bond to Rand and Birgitte but no sense of direction.

I have looked on various pages of that site, but I have not seen that; can you give a link to the page?

By the way, I had to use "Index" page instead of the "Search" page because the "Search" page does not work on my computer.

I found it under "Tel'aran'rhiod" (below "WoT setting").

[mb]

I searched Encyclopaedia WoT and found this:

WH,Ch27 - Elayne and Egwene meet in Tel'aran'rhiod in Emond's Field. In Tel'aran'rhiod Elayne can still feel a distant bond to Rand and Birgitte but no sense of direction.

I have looked on various pages of that site, but I have not seen that; can you give a link to the page?

By the way, I had to use "Index" page instead of the "Search" page because the "Search" page does not work on my computer.

I found it under "Tel'aran'rhiod" (below "WoT setting").

Ok.

[Mr Ares]

I interpreted your statement as tell where I pointed the statement.

Why on Earth did you do something silly like that?

If you worded the statement differently, I might have understood.

Or if you had read it properly.

I did quote an external source in between the two posts.

Yes, you were able to prove that someone else was just as capable of the same unsupported speculation. What I wanted was for you to provide some support for your position.

[mb]

Unsupported?  I think the non-tracking evidence does support the theory.  The reason the bond remained with Elayne/Verin is because the connection to the two realms remained.  Moiraine's case is the only example where another world was involved in breaking the warder bond.

Until the books explicitly deny the theory, I would still think it was plausible.  To my knowledge, Robert Jordan had not commented about this event and I think his response would have been a Read-And-Find-Out if he had.

 

You seem to assume that Lanfear & Moiraine had the same treatment.  That would not necessarily have been so.

And you seem to insist that Lanfear was severed then Healed by a saidar channeler.  Cyndane did not give any account of what happened to her after she fell through the doorway nor any account of her captivity.

We know that afterward that Lanfear/Cyndane was mindtrapped by Moridin; the Encyclopaedia site tells that it was before Moghedien was mindtrapped.  The Encyclopaedia site seems to imply that it can only be done to a channeling person (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/mindtrap.html); and the site seems to tell that it was done immediately after her return (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/c/cyndane.html).

Another possibility for Lanfear's/Cyndane's treatment could have been that it was done by the Eelfinn (and/or maybe by the Aelfinn).  What we know from Mat about them might be only a portion of what they are able to do.

 

[Dmitri]

Unsupported?  I think the non-tracking evidence does support the theory.  The reason the bond remained with Elayne/Verin is because the connection to the two realms remained.

 

Maybe you read what other people say better? And the books, too.

You mean, now there's no connection between A/Eelfinn world and Randland?

Are you that sure? 'Cause then Mat & Thom aren't going to save Moiraine  ;D

 

Moiraine's case is the only example where another world was involved in breaking the warder bond.

 

Moiraine's bond broken has nothing to do with another world. She was burnt out while occasionally destroying the doorframe ter'angrial...

 

Try again...  :-\

 

[NickHayball]

Could it be the case that the power of a channeller is related somehow to a physical atribute - one which Cyndane's body has in lesser proportion to Lanfear's original? Like muscle size / tone gives the potential for great physical strength, a channeller has greater or lesser links to the Power inside their brain (I'm trying to avoid Anakin's really high Midichlorian count but it makes a very convenient analogy <ahem>  :)).

The DO's forces are aware they have to resurrect the souls of some recently offed Chosen so they get told "Go grab people who can channel, beat them up knock them out and get them back here". Wouldn't have to be someone who actually channels, just who has the potential to do so.

 

It would seem that the side of the OP the body has the potential to channel is gender-unrelated (see Osan'gar / Aran'gar) - whether a soul channels saidin or saidar is decided by their birth gender - but the conduits which allow Power to flow are part of a physical body. When Aran'gar first becomes aware of reincarnation and freaks out, I believe he/she is told "Don't complain about this body, it's the best we could grab at short notice" (forgive lack of a quote, posting fast before work. Might ninja-edit). Now the forces of the DO, with shadow-walking Fades, channellers of both genders, scary Gholem at their disposal could pretty much grab any random person off the street they wanted if all that was needed was a healthy physical body to inhabit. Instead they're forced to quickly subdue a pair of potential channellers, and the only ones they find are a single man and a single woman to put the two Chosen souls into.

 

Of course given the DO's well-documented vindictive nature he could have put them into the bodies of two non-OP channelling people and only given them access to the TP... forcing them to use the TP at his whim or be basically Joe Average. Seems he needs his tools to be out in the world fighting his cause though. Ah well.

[Mr Ares]

Unsupported?

Yes.

I think the non-tracking evidence does support the theory.

You would be wrong.

The reason the bond remained with Elayne/Verin is because the connection to the two realms remained.

The connection remained in this instance. Therefore it cannot be that.

Moiraine's case is the only example where another world was involved in breaking the warder bond.

And as we have several similar instances without severing the bond, why should we think this involves another world?

Until the books explicitly deny the theory, I would still think it was plausible.

Well, whatever makes you happy. I'll just look at the evidence, and reason from that that any other conclusion is unsupported and unnecessary.

 

You seem to assume...

Do I?

And you seem to insist that Lanfear was severed then Healed by a saidar channeler.

No, I know for a fact that the only similar instance in the books was that of Siuan and Leane, therefore that would be the only conclusion supported by evidence. No "seem to", I am quite clear. Evidence supports one conclusion only, therefore I think that conclusion is the most likely.

We know that afterward that Lanfear/Cyndane was mindtrapped by Moridin;

Yes we do. Very clever.

the Encyclopaedia site tells that it was before Moghedien was mindtrapped.

Good boy!

The Encyclopaedia site seems to imply that it can only be done to a channeling person

Would you like a cookie?

and the site seems to tell that it was done immediately after her return

No. It simply relays the facts. She came back with a new body and was mindtrapped. It gives no indication of timescale or anything else involved, because these things are unknown.

Another possibility for Lanfear's/Cyndane's treatment could have been that it was done by the Eelfinn (and/or maybe by the Aelfinn). What we know from Mat about them might be only a portion of what they are able to do.

It could have been done by them. Or by Gaspode the Wonder Dog, Odin, Krishna, a bunch of tulips. But we have no evidence to support these positions. We have evidence to support only one position. We know of only one thing that can cause that loss of strength. Therefore, the evidence supports it being due to her being Healed by a woman. The evidence supports the bond being broken by death or severing, and we know Moiraine isn't dead. Therefore the evidence says she is severed. It is really that simple.

 

Could it be the case that the power of a channeller is related somehow to a physical atribute - one which Cyndane's body has in lesser proportion to Lanfear's original?

No. We know that Aran'gar, Osan'gar and Moridin all remain at the exact same strength they were before, therefore we know strength is constant over the transmigration process.

 

Of course given the DO's well-documented vindictive nature he could have put them into the bodies of two non-OP channelling people and only given them access to the TP.

No, He couldn't. You have to be an OP channler to access the TP.

[mb]

We are not told all evidence, so we can only guess.

 

In the chronology of Cyndane on the Encyclopaedia site, the mindtrapping and returning are in the same line.  If there was anything between them, I think the two events would be on two different lines.

Besides that, there is the question of who Healed her if she was stilled.  The one who discovered the type of healing was Nynaeve; the Yellow Ajah of the rebels were the main ones she taught.  Moghedien would not have been the one because she could only have met Cyndane only after both of them were mindtrapped.  There is no indication of Cyndane approaching any of the rebels in the time it would have happened.

 

The Eelfinn causing the power loss seems more plausible than Lanfear/Cyndane being stilled then Healed.  Another possibility would be that a True Power kind of Healing was used on her; that also seems more plausible than being Healed by a saidar channeler.

 

Only ways we can be entirely certain would be these:

-Moiraine's return.

-Cyndane giving an account of what happened.

 

[Mr Ares]

We are not told all evidence, so we can only guess.

Look at the evidence we have been given.

 

In the chronology of Cyndane on the Encyclopaedia site, the mindtrapping and returning are in the same line. If there was anything between them, I think the two events would be on two different lines.

That's probably where you're going wrong. We have no reason to believe it.

Besides that, there is the question of who Healed her if she was stilled.

Someone who knows how. Who knows how? The Salidar Sisters. How could they get there? Travelling. How could they be contacted, to let them know to come? Same way Delana was, through her dreams. All stuff we know is possible.

 

The Eelfinn causing the power loss seems more plausible than Lanfear/Cyndane being stilled then Healed.

No, it doesn't.

Another possibility would be that a True Power kind of Healing was used on her; that also seems more plausible than being Healed by a saidar channeler.

Again, no it doesn't.

[Nightstrike]

It's beyond reasonable doubt that both of them were severed upon entering finnland. How can lanny have gotten weaker? We know it's possible to be reduced in strength after Healing by same gender. I think the strength difference between both gender Healings is a fixed amount of strength. Same amount whether you're strong or weak.

 

[mb]

Stilling is a possibility, but we do not have enough evidence to say that it is the only possibility.

I have looked at the given evidence, and there is small degree of doubt for the stilling theory.

 

There is no indication of Cyndane meeting with any of the rebels; and no indication of any of the rebels waiting for her.

Doubtfully the rebels Healed her because of Arangar's cover.  There may have been a chance that Light-sided rebels witness the meeting if it took place.  Arangar's cover is based on the supposed information of Cabriana; and Cyndane's body looks very much like Cabriana's if it is not Cabriana's.  Even Illusion might risk breaking Arangar's cover, Illusion works best with something that is close to its original.

 

Also; if Lanfear/Cyndane was stilled, why did she get a new body?

Doubtfully she would have gotten a new body if she was only stilled.

Something else besides only stilling or burning out had to happen in one of these times:

-at the time of entering

-during her captivity

-in her rescue

Otherwise she would not have gotten a new body.