Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
zzyzx_scarecrow

? about Eye of the World Prologue

Recommended Posts

Ishmael is who Lew Therin faces here, right?  If so, why is Ishy free?  This has never made sense to me, in that my understanding is that Lews Therin trapped the forsaken when he sealed the Dark One's prison.

 

Can anyone clarify?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, it is Ishamael.

 

As is Ba'alzamon.

 

Ishamael has never been completely sealed. Unlike the rest of the Chosen, he had periods during which he could manifest and directly influence events. He is the one who instigated the Trolloc Wars and managed them as well as started the Black Ajah. He also advised Artur Hawkwing into hating the Aes Sedai and declaring war on them as well as sending his armies across the Aryth Ocean with his sons. He's also the one who turned Padan Fain into a hound to hunt down Rand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I take that Ishamael was only partially sealed.

From the encyclopaedia site, I recall a reference that tells that Ishamael had temporary visits to Randland at like 40 year interval; I am unable to access the site right now.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ishamael was not completely trapped in the bore like the other forsaken because of some mechanism that is not completely understood.  What we know is that he seemed to be trapped in some sort of cycle where he was freed from the bore every thousand years or so.  He could communicate with the shadowspawn and darkfriends during these periods of freedom, and eventually manifest himself physically.

 

He had four periods of freedom that we know of prior to his escaping entirely.  The first was just after the sealing when he healed Lews Therin.  His second was when he started the Trolloc Wars and destroyed the Ten Nations.  The third was during Hawkwing's reign.  His final free period was just before he escaped while he was manipulating Rand, Mat, and Perrin.  His periods of freedom were approximately 40 years long.

 

We know that was able to affect the physical world when he healed Lews Therin just before his death, and it is possible that he was able to physically affect the world in subsequent free periods. 

 

We also know that Ishamael probably assumed the name Ba'alzamon during his first brush with freedom.  He certainly used his power over the shadowspawn to trigger the Trolloc Wars and destroy the Covenant.

 

It is also reasonably certain that he was the advisor to Artur Hawkwing (his assumed name was in the Big White Book as I recall)who caused the High King to send his armies accross the Aryth Ocean and order the deaths of all Aes Sedai.  (Whether Bohnwin's attempts to manipulate Hawkwing was part of Ishamael's plot or merely a provocation that Ishamael made use of is uncertain.)

 

Ishamael's activities prior to the EotW are not know for certain, though we know that he played a role in the "distilling" of Padan Fain, though whether the DO directed him in this or he did it on his own in uncertain.  But in summary, Ishamael was only partially trapped and came free every thousand years or so for about 40 years at a time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why the hell do people feel the need to repeat exactly what other posters have said?

 

The same way why people continue asking questions which have been answered a number of times.

 

And, of course, looking through BWB or Encyclopaedia is oh so difficult.  ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who said he didn't? He's much more awesome than Aginor and Balthamel. I mean, until he was killed and reborn as Moridin, you never really see his face. You just see what you know must be a facade in the burning cavernous eyes and mouth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest The Thin Inn Keeper

If Ishamael was only partially sealed why didn't he age the way Aginor and Balthamel did?

Who said he didn't? He's much more awesome than Aginor and Balthamel. I mean, until he was killed and reborn as Moridin, you never really see his face. You just see what you know must be a facade in the burning cavernous eyes and mouth.

Or... maybe it's more like being totally free for only a short period of time before being sucked back in to the seal and being safe from the effects of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He may have also been free during the Breaking as well. Remember in the Glass columns in Rhuidean, when some of the Aiel came across a female Aes Sedai who was "mad", saying that Ishamael was free, she took some items from the Aiel's caravan to go fight him or something...

 

Wonder who that was. I forget, don't have the book to confirm though. Anyone have it or remember that part?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who said he didn't? He's much more awesome than Aginor and Balthamel. I mean, until he was killed and reborn as Moridin, you never really see his face. You just see what you know must be a facade in the burning cavernous eyes and mouth.

 

I always thought the flames in his eyes and mouth were the extreme latter effects of the Saa and the madness that comes form using the True Power too much.  Am I wrong in thinking that?  Would be less spectacular if it was some silly mask of mirrors trick. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I always thought the flames in his eyes and mouth were the extreme latter effects of the Saa and the madness that comes form using the True Power too much. Am I wrong in thinking that?
No. See his eyeless corpse in TDR.

 

He may have also been free during the Breaking as well. Remember in the Glass columns in Rhuidean, when some of the Aiel came across a female Aes Sedai who was "mad", saying that Ishamael was free, she took some items from the Aiel's caravan to go fight him or something...

 

Wonder who that was. I forget, don't have the book to confirm though. Anyone have it or remember that part?

TSR 26, first Jonai POV. It is mentioned that the last AS he encountered said Ishamel was still free.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Or... maybe it's more like being totally free for only a short period of time before being sucked back in to the seal and being safe from the effects of time.

 

Yep, that's a possibility as well, Thin.

 

I always thought the flames in his eyes and mouth were the extreme latter effects of the Saa and the madness that comes form using the True Power too much.  Am I wrong in thinking that?  Would be less spectacular if it was some silly mask of mirrors trick.

 

Magic tricks are usually less spectacular when you know how they're done. That doesn't mean the more complicated answer is more likely to be true. How you feel about it has little effect on the truth.

 

He may have also been free during the Breaking as well.

 

He was certainly in one of his free periods directly after Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions sealed the Bore. After all, it was him who healed Lews Therin's madness. That was near the start of the Breaking. So he could very easily have been able to influence events directly following the Sealing of the Bore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I remember right one of the other forsaken recalls Ishamael using the True Power often and it was why his eyes and mouth were fire. He shudders at seeing the Saa in Moridin's eyes in the same point of view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I remember right one of the other forsaken recalls Ishamael using the True Power often and it was why his eyes and mouth were fire. He shudders at seeing the Saa in Moridin's eyes in the same point of view.

 

yeah i thought that aswell

shall have to find the quote

hmmm.....goes to look

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About him not ageing as Aginor and Balthemel did--we see Aginor de-age whilst trying to take control of the Eye--we also know that people who start channeling late in their life de-age as per RJ's comments about Sharina.

 

Possibly that Ishamael was free enough to channel was what provided for his over-all youthful appearence.

 

Adding to the list of his free times, he was free roughly 16 years prior to the beginning of the series when he killed Jarna Milari, who was head of the Black Ajah, for killing Tamra Ospenya and instigating the hunt and destroy mission. He also at that time raised Alviarin to the head of the Black Ajah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If I remember right one of the other forsaken recalls Ishamael using the True Power often and it was why his eyes and mouth were fire. He shudders at seeing the Saa in Moridin's eyes in the same point of view.

 

You're making a connection that was never made in the book.

 

One of the Chosen does remark on the saa that flies across Ishamael's eyes, a sign that he has been excessively using the True Power, but that does not mean it has anything to do with the fire in his mouth and eyes while posing as Ba'alzamon. The fire in his mouth and eyes was merely an illusion.

 

The saa are merely black flecks that fly across a person's vision, but does not impede their sight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do wonder if anyone else is familiar with the Naruto series.

 

Ishamael reminds me a bit of Orochimaru, master of all forbidden techniques in that series. Well, the other way around really, but you get what I mean perhaps.

 

Orochimaru maintains his immortality by using human vessels, shells to inhabit and possess, so much so that he can change their appearance to his own.

 

I think Ishamael saw what was going to happen at the Sealing of the Bore, and like the Dark One, used a counter stroke in order to remain partially free. He was bound like the rest of the Forsaken, but he must have done something to himself, almost like a mixture of transmigration of souls and a Coursouvra projection.

 

He could have cast part of himself into one of the humans at the site of the battle, used them as a temporary vessel and simply hopped bodies when he could gather the strength.

 

That's the personal theory I have. I mean, how different is it from what the Dark One does with dead Forsaken? How much different is it from what's going on with Morridin?

 

Of all the Forsaken, Ishamael is probably the most diabolical, the most likely to think in such an abstract way as to be able to come up with a ploy like that, to stay active in the outside world, even while bound in the sealing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're making a connection that was never made in the book.

 

One of the Chosen does remark on the saa that flies across Ishamael's eyes, a sign that he has been excessively using the True Power, but that does not mean it has anything to do with the fire in his mouth and eyes while posing as Ba'alzamon. The fire in his mouth and eyes was merely an illusion.

 

The saa are merely black flecks that fly across a person's vision, but does not impede their sight.

 

Quite an illusion that manages to leave the eyes and mouth pits from which black smoke rises...

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When he dies?

 

There are many odd things going on around Ishamael while posing as Ba'alzamon that you can't really treat him like a regular person. Perhaps it wasn't a simple illusion. Perhaps it wasn't an illusion at all. But there is nothing to suggest that Ishamael's condition as Ba'alzamon is tied to his use of the True Power. I'm not entirely certain he uses the True Power before he becomes Moridin, though, he probably does.

 

I'm fairly certain that within the first three books, Jordan had not fully fleshed out his magic system so the line between "metaphorical and metaphysical," to use Leigh Butler's phrase (http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=13425), isn't entirely clear. Certainly, a lot of what happens surrounding Ba'alzamon is not so easily explained. I mean, the way he draws shadows around him sounds a lot like the way a Fade behaves. He even seems to manipulate shadows into a ball and use it as a weapon, something I'm not certain we see elsewhere.

 

The way Rand and Ba'alzamon shift into Tel'aran'rhiod and back out of when when Rand kills him is also quite iffy, and much different from the way it happens in later books.

 

It's not so clear-cut, and there is no way to say that the saa are responsible or even that Ba'alzamon's use of the True Power is responsible for things like the smoking pits where his eyes and mouth should have been (which sounds quite reminiscent of a Fade).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did not RJ comment somewhere that the fiery mouth and eyes was a more progressed version of the saa?

 

Anyway i believe as the others do, that it is the saa. We already know they have a manifestation in the eyes that gets worse the more one uses the True Power, and that they don't actually impede vision (i.e. that whatever they are, they arn't quite what they appear to be, as to with the fiery eyes).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never heard RJ say that. I could be wrong, but if you find the quote, I'll drop the subject now. As it stands, it's a bit of a leap to believe that the saa, black flecks, destroys the eyes and mouth and turns into fiery pits.

 

(It's kind of crazy that fire turns into fiery.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, again I don't see how thats a leap. We know the saa are gettig progressively worse the more Moridin uses the True Power--getting worse into what? Ishamael used by far more True Power over a longer period of time, but had no saa. But he did have an eye related effect that wasn't actually what it appeared. Fire that did not burn him, that he could still see in spite of, yet was really there (which we know due to the sensation of heat felt by those facing him, and that it did burn him after his death. Had either simply been an illusion or colourful effect that result would not occur).

 

A progressive effect of True Power, and two people at two different stages of True Power addiction. That seems logically connectable. Occam's razor and all that.

 

Fiery--a manifestation of a fire-like nature in a personal attribute. The use of the word was not crazy, it was hyperbolic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did not RJ comment somewhere that the fiery mouth and eyes was a more progressed version of the saa?

 

 

 

I am very sure I have seen such a comment, I can just not remember where.

And since I am supposed to finish writing a paper instead of hanging around here, I can not really be bothered to go looking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here we go, from the Wotmania 2004 interview.

 

17. Q. Ishamael’s corpse in The Dragon Reborn had only pits where his eyes and mouth once were. Was this a result of the True Power? If this is true, is the True Power the reason that Fades have no eyes, but some supernatural abilities?

 

A. The True Power is reason that Ishamael’s corpse had no eyes, just as it was the reason that his eyes had been caverns of flame, but it not precisely the reason that Fades have no eyes. The True Power as well as the One Power was used in creation of Trollocs, which proved to be uncontrollable and useless as soldiers until the first Myrddraal were born, throwbacks to the human stock used in creating Trollocs, but twisted by the inclusion of the True Power in making Trollocs.

 

As a related aside, whilst i was searching i found this.

 

{72}For Dracos, the Forsaken could not talk to one another, not even Balthamel and Aginor, who were trapped near the surface and at least intermittently conscious and aware what was happening in the world. You might say that being trapped where they were, in a Bore that existed everywhere at once, allowed them to see the whole world. But for the others, it was a deep and dreamless sleep. Even for Ishamael, except when he was spun out periodically. When thinking about the Forsaken, you might factor in the effects of dream deprivation.

 

So there we have it--Ishamael stayed young because when he wasn't active he was caught in the dreamless sleep and not exposed to the ravages of time, as were Aginor and Balthemel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...