White Tower/General Aes Sedai stupidity

[Mockingbird]

It is not just Aes Sedai. It seems to me that RJ's females are (with exceptions) not as rational or intelligent as his males are. The Aes Sedai are arrogent idiots for the most part, which is somewhat realistic seeing how they are were, for the most part, the unquestioned power in the world. However, when they get in trouble, they seem to go to pieces. This sees like a odd choice on RJ's part. One would think that they would be more impressive. They also are not very far thinking wich is odd. Are not they supposed to be the world's authority on the future. Overall, after their impressive depiction in the first book, they gradually became more rediculous.

[Luckers]

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you, Luckers. I think you're right when you say that it can't be the only explanation for the decline. Maybe that was what RJ meant also. He specifically mentioned the culling of men. But, hey, it's only fiction, so maybe he didn't want to dig to deep into the whole scientific part of it.  :P

 

From Robert Jordan's blog:

For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also.  In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength.  For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool.  They have been very efficient at this.  As a result, the present day sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.

 

 

Mmm, your right, there's not much to twist in there. Thanks for finding it though.

 

One of the reasons Aes Sedai think they know better then everyone else is they live longer then everybody else.  So they tend to have a different outlook then most people.

 

Mmm, sort of a 'when your older than everyone else, you tend to look at them as children' thing.

 

Aes Sedai don't (or didn't) 'recruit' actively for a long time.  They waited for the girls to show up at their door steps wanting/hoping to learn.  Do you think this was a design of the Black Ajha?  Specifically, if only girls wanting power were showing up for training, that motivation could be manipulated to increase BA numbers and thus reduce non-BA numbers. 

 

More likely they simply took advantage of it. Ishamael didn't make the Black Ajah until after the Trolloc Wars, and its been said several times that the method of gathering girls (waiting for them to come to the Tower) has been in effect since the breaking--a fact supported by the fact that the Tower has never gotten much about about 6,000 sisters despite 1% (closer to 3% then) of the population being able to channel. There should have been hundreds of thousands, if not millions (the westlands were much more populated then).

 

It is not just Aes Sedai. It seems to me that RJ's females are (with exceptions) not as rational or intelligent as his males are. The Aes Sedai are arrogent idiots for the most part, which is somewhat realistic seeing how they are were, for the most part, the unquestioned power in the world. However, when they get in trouble, they seem to go to pieces. This sees like a odd choice on RJ's part. One would think that they would be more impressive. They also are not very far thinking wich is odd. Are not they supposed to be the world's authority on the future. Overall, after their impressive depiction in the first book, they gradually became more rediculous.

 

I actually think its a very clever, very subtle choice by RJ. Consider that for over three thousand years the highest role in the land could only be filled by women. Historically we've seen the effect this has on influencing gender roles, resulting in a skewed arrogance from one gender to another even in areas of the society were none of that high social status existed (in this case Aes Sedai). In the real world this involved men being in power over women, but i find it fascinating that RJ followed through with twisting that around--and we know he is aware of it, because in areas were the male/female power systems remained balanced the same gender inbalance has not occured, and the characters are much more emotionally mature. Amongst the Aiel, for instance. Or the Seanchan.

[Casco]

There are more examples of the Aes Sedai strange thinking of things.

When a Aes Sedai bounds a man to be a warder..its right and natural for her, even if she does it against the mans will in most of the cases (and rest of the world exept the soldiers themselfs)

When a as´haman bounds a Aes Sedai its a horrible action, and its wrong.

 

When a Aes Sedai and a as´haman make a circle the Aes Sedai think it MUST be the Aes Sedai who lead the circle of the power.

 

Ofc this is pretty easy to explain. The Aes Sedai have been the power for 3000 years, nobody have ever done anything to stop them from doing what they want. All men who can channel was stilled and/or killed. Now the power seems to slip out of their hands... and they have a little panic.

[magnutz]

I would have thought that the White Tower knew that if you root out all the males able to channel it might actually lead to a decrease in girls born with the ability as well.

 

Mayhap the Aes Sedai believe in their supremacy too much and that is the reason to why they come across as "stupid" at times. They won't even consider that what they believe might be wrong and thus what they believe is right is and what they don't believe isn't.

[Shard]

Casco I think your forgetting for that past 3,000 years the male channelers have been tainted by the DO's touch. So to many women they still feel that even being bonded to a Male Channeler means somehow the DO's touch could be touching them or that the man's maddness might take them.

 

[Mr Ares]

When a Aes Sedai bounds a man to be a warder..its right and natural for her, even if she does it against the mans will in most of the cases (and rest of the world exept the soldiers themselfs)

In most cases in the series present, Warders are bonded voluntarily, Rand being perhaps the sole exception. The women held by Logain didn't get a choice.

 

Mmm, sort of a 'when your older than everyone else, you tend to look at them as children' thing.

In my defence, I look on some of you as very smart children.

[magnutz]

When a Aes Sedai bounds a man to be a warder..its right and natural for her, even if she does it against the mans will in most of the cases (and rest of the world exept the soldiers themselfs)

In most cases in the series present, Warders are bonded voluntarily, Rand being perhaps the sole exception. The women held by Logain didn't get a choice.

 

Mmm, sort of a 'when your older than everyone else, you tend to look at them as children' thing.

In my defence, I look on some of you as very smart children.

 

No, Logain bonded them! - by kissing?!

 

I do see the need for the Aes Sedai community to "be above" everyone else. They cannot function if nations/groups/individuals/... question their actions. Well crafted by RJ.

 

I guess threads like this one comes to life whenever someone (like me at the moment) has read too much of the story over a too short time span. It gets easier to see the ties and also the "errors" or what they should be called.

[ElVato]

What bothers me about them is not that they think their way is always the best but how they treat other people as being lesser humans than themselves. They should be given over to the wise ones for a little re-education in how to treat people with respect.

[Mr Ares]

No, Logain bonded them! - by kissing?!

Yes, Logain's men bonded them. Mostly by weaving saidin, but the kiss was part of the weave.

 

What bothers me about them is not that they think their way is always the best but how they treat other people as being lesser humans than themselves. They should be given over to the wise ones for a little re-education in how to treat people with respect.

I think this has come about as a result of them separating themselves from the world - they see themselves as apart, better. The best way to change it is to make them part of the world again.

[AcuWill]

Other than my above post regarding Aes Sedai leadership qualifications (only strength in wsilding hte power) I find their general stance in the world foolish. 

 

They think so highly of themselves, as if they are great servents in teh world and bring so much good, "guide" those ignorant fools for the benefit of humanity, fight the Shadow, yadda yadda.

 

But what I see is a group of people trying (and failing) at nothing more than perpetuation of a time and power long past.  They themselves know it's a farce, many oustide the tower know it as well, yet they do nothing but perpetuate.  They reasons to not try anything new or to create new, they cite their history of perpetuation as validation of their perpetuation.  It's asinine.  All those who do more (like Siuan and Moraine) find themselves outside the Tower and all those who have done more recently are oustide the Tower (Like Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, etc.)  Yet, even those like Siuanwho fight the Tower cannot cannot make the leap to understanding that the fault IS the Tower.

 

It's like Egwene's stance after beoming the Amyrlin.  She forsakes Rand and others on whom the fate of the entire world rides because the "Tower" is all that matters.  Very foolish indeed.

[magnutz]

Other than my above post regarding Aes Sedai leadership qualifications (only strength in wsilding hte power) I find their general stance in the world foolish. 

 

They think so highly of themselves, as if they are great servents in teh world and bring so much good, "guide" those ignorant fools for the benefit of humanity, fight the Shadow, yadda yadda.

 

But what I see is a group of people trying (and failing) at nothing more than perpetuation of a time and power long past.  They themselves know it's a farce, many oustide the tower know it as well, yet they do nothing but perpetuate.  They reasons to not try anything new or to create new, they cite their history of perpetuation as validation of their perpetuation.  It's asinine.  All those who do more (like Siuan and Moraine) find themselves outside the Tower and all those who have done more recently are oustide the Tower (Like Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, etc.)  Yet, even those like Siuanwho fight the Tower cannot cannot make the leap to understanding that the fault IS the Tower.

 

It's like Egwene's stance after beoming the Amyrlin.  She forsakes Rand and others on whom the fate of the entire world rides because the "Tower" is all that matters.  Very foolish indeed.

 

Yes, the fear of change is irritating but not uncommon in bodies of power, anywhere. And the Aes Sedai know what they want because they want what they know - The White Tower - Safety Blanket Muy Grande. Even if the safety of the White Tower is highly questionable.

 

Oh well. I am reading my way through Crossroads of Twilight now and am reading totally new pages (I failed finishing that book a couple of years back and stopped reading the series after that). I might have more to rant about after having finished CoT and the KoD.

 

It is nice though that the White Tower is "stupid" with arrow straight accuracy throughout the story. I would have been disappointed if RJ had allowed the Tower to be great in one part of the story and stupid the next. ;)

[benr]

There are differences between ignorance, stupidity, and idiocy.  Of course, there are some stupid AS; having the ability to channel doesn't necessarily correlate to a high level of intelligence.  Channeling idiots are extremely dangerous, as we have seen.

 

It is the willful ignorance of the AS that has held them back the most.  This is not unusual in bureaucracies or power blocs.  Those groups tend to only attempt to perpetuate their power.  Most advances come from those free to think freely; with as highly structured a society as the AS live in, it is totally realistic that their relationship to the rest of society has deteriorated - even if their position of power hasn't, until the introduction of the Dragon Reborn into the equation drastically changed the situation.

 

There have always been those that have realized that said structure wasn't the best way; examples have been provided (Moiraine, Cadsuane).  Siuan was wise enough to send the Wonder Girls off to allow them to develop.

 

I also disagree that Egwene's re-joining the Tower to rise to the AS from within is part of this ignorance; I think that she knows that with TG coming, the AS must be led by an "enlightened" AS, who knows what their role in TG will be.  She believes that a unified Tower at TG is a must.

 

And yes, poor communication is a recurring theme of this tale.  That is totally realistic; even with our "advanced" technologies today, actual communication is lacking.  We all act on imperfect knowledge; we don't have access to true POVs from our friends and enemies.  While we have that access in the WOT, the characters don't.  In a time when communication can be very slow, it is very believable that a lack of information greatly influences outcomes.

[Crayak]

For about three thousand years Aes Sedai have been at the top of the totem pole, but that's ok, because as far as they're concerned they'll just bend the world to their will and keep on marching... Oh wait, couple problems there.

 

The Black Ajah aside, I think one of the White Tower's biggest hangups is the term "wilder." Anyone not initiated with the Tower is clearly less than someone who is. It's been mentioned serveral times in this thread already--they're victims of their own propoganda. The Sea Folk and Wise Ones aren't so impressed, though.

 

Now the Oath Rod. In my last re-read, not sure which book, one of the dialogues between the Forsaken included, "Do they bind themselves like criminals?" and on a related note is Semirhage's choice to join the Shadow instead of accepting either "binding" or severing. As far as I can tell the Oath Rod was used to control criminals in the AoL. The fact that Aes Sedai "need" to swear the oaths merly creates the perseption that they are dangerous and need to be regulated. Wise Ones and Windfinders don't have this problem.

 

Their false sence of importance doesn't help them, either. You'd think they'd all be willing to serve the Dragon Reborn until the last battle has come and gone, but no, THEY have to win/lead/fight the last battle. With one hand behind their backs, no less. Oh, a little more honey in the tea, Rand.

 

I know I'm forgetting something, but oh well.

[Fryn]

For a long time the AS thought they were the only channelers active. They had a very blind eye to the world at large and allowed their assumptions to rules what they thought was true. Through the series we have learned how other channeler groups have worked throughout the same time period. In most cases these other methods worked a lot better. To the point that it would be a crying shame if AS had a free reign like they would like to have.

 

The AS jump to the assumption that all these wild channelers should be arranged in some part with the white tower (Morraine thinks Avi should be taught at the White tower for example). You even see this with Egwene, when she thinks about the Aiel and Kin. Even she would like every female channeler to be part of a larger whole connected to the tower in some way (with the tower at the center of course ><). The Aiel wise ones see the AS as children that can't even take care of their own people, while meddling with others affairs. You get a glance of this when they are talking about Aiel teaching every single woman with a spark and the ability to learn, while the AS let women die without helping them through it.

 

As for the other methods, I would say the other channeler bases actually do help and serve their perspective groups a lot more than the AS do with their attempts to manipulate the world. I would compare the AS up until now much like the organized church during the middle ages. By that I mean they expect their will to be carried out throughout all nations, and feel their way of things is more important than the leaders of the nations people are located in. In fact having Tar Valon on an island inside another nation is much like the vatican.

 

You have have the Kin, who are actually women that ran away from the tower, that actually help the community. They walk around and heal the injured without expecting anything in return. For the most part they are in hiding, but even so they help the community more than the AS organization does.

 

The windfinders are used as navigators, which is a very important role for a seafaring culture. Their station is linked to their captain and rise and falls over the years as they are deployed to different captians.

 

The wise ones are seen as elders and out of all of the channelers help their community the most (imo). They are an important part of the Aiel culture in everyday life. They interact with other Aiel and are actually seen.

 

Obviously I am excluding the seachan and the shara because in the former I slavery is not the best option, and in teh later we don't know enough about how the culture is actually run. The channeler "ruler" that is killed every 7? years is mearly a shadow puppet fort eh real channelers in charge if I what I gleam is correct.

 

On the flip side many AS spend most of their lives holed up in the white tower. They rarely interact with the common person, and in most cases see themselves above all others even rulers of nations. The fact that they were ignorant of the large number of channelers and the existance of the BA speaks to how ignorant they can be of events around them. How the general populace thinks of AS really shows how poorly the AS have been in helping Randland. Through their own actions they have segregated themselves from the average person, and are veiwed with miss-trust at best. The AS are too easy to turn a blind eye or take their assumptions about others as base facts. Luckers post points out much of why this has happened of course.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

I would compare the AS up until now much like the organized church during the middle ages. By that I mean they expect their will to be carried out throughout all nations, and feel their way of things is more important than the leaders of the nations people are located in. In fact having Tar Valon on an island inside another nation is much like the vatican.

 

I think you are being to hard on the AS. You describe them as the Catholic Church in the "High" Middle Ages but you forget the role of Tar Valon in the aftermath of the Breaking or the Churches role in the Dark Ages. The Catholic Church in the Dark Ages did many bad things (as does Tar Valon), but it also was the sole unifying force in Western Eurpope at the time and what ever little learning from the ancient world survived in Western Europe can be credited to the efforts of the Church. Now the Church and Tar Valon grew to disparage the knowledge of other cultures and the wisdom of non-As. Moreover, Tar Valon like the Church constantly meddled in the affairs of Nations believing that they new best. The big differnce between the Church and tar Valon is that in the case of our Universe Western Europe is not central point which the entire Universe revolves around (whatever we may think) but Randland is the key to the Last Battle all the other cultures are only peripheral players in the upcoming Last Battle. When we take that into account the role of Tar Valon (whatever else can be said of it) in getting Randland to survive till this point in time is crucial. Now as to the future, who knows but remember that in the Age of Legends while power was decentralized all channellers were connected and loosely organized into one overreaching organization.

[Charlz Fel]

"The Tower has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years.  It has guided rulers to wise decisions, stopped wars before they began, halted wars that did begin.  That humankind even remembers that the Dark One waits to escape, that the Last Battle will come, is because of the Tower.  The Tower, whole and united.  I could almost wish that every sister had sworn to Elaida, whatever happened to Siuan."--Moiraine, TFoH, Chapter 15 "What Can Be Learned in Dreams"

 

Ironically enough, Moiraine has here relied mostly on the role of the Gray and Brown Ajahs to justify the Tower's existence.  The Red and Yellow Ajahs are the ones that, in my opinion, have done the most obviously worthwhile tasks (however unlikable the Red may be).  Certainly, we may question the extent to which the Aes Sedai guidance of rulers was actually "wise," as Moiraine claims.  However, one important point here is that the Aes Sedai--even Black Ajah, given that they will have to answer to other Aes Sedai--will almost always be better than the worst of rulers, who are totally and overtly abusing their power for personal gain.  [People like Galldrian, or some of the High Lords of Tear.]  Additionally, Aes Sedai have been through an education process which, in theory, ought to have improved them and also weeded out any idiots.

 

Another important role the Aes Sedai have fulfilled is to keep other groups of channelers in check, for instance, preventing the sort of chaos that happened in pre-Hawkwing Seanchan with the Armies of the Night.  Their biggest mistake, as so many have pointed out on this thread, was to come to believe their own propaganda.

[GUTB]

Oh come on, let's be honest here -- the only "problem" with the White Tower is Jordan's fetish with humiliating AS. To set them up for it, he inflates AS egos to absurd proportions, and then invents prophesis to bring them down. For every arrogant AS, there is an incredibly well-adjusted Wise One ready to beat her up with moral correctness as well with her general Aiel social and military supremacy.

 

[Fryn]

I probably wasn't too clear. I was just pointing out some parallels, and outside of those I do not think they are the same. There are definitely some links, and if anything I would say I am not as hard on the AS as I should of been. As the saying goes with great power comes great responsibility, and the AS for the most part have squandered theirs.

 

The AS were born in a time of fear and uncertainty. They gathered together for both power and to manipulate events. They believe that if others can channel then they MUST be part of the AS; ie they want a pure monopoly on the ability to channel. The entire culture is layered with rituals and rules that are present simply because that is how it is always done. The group is layered in secrets and rumors that are hidden from both the public and other AS, in the guise of making AS appear all powerful to both new AS and the general population. Lastly for all of their power they have not done much to make the general population trust or like them.

 

There is a massive problem with the AS due of its formation, and the fact that AS do not like changing old customs. Since AS live a long time it means that all of the AS customs and basis is set on a period of time where the world was in shambles and scared (even AS). For example making sure the Amryial seat isn't a male makes a lot of sense in the time of the breaking, but makes less sense in a period where there has been no male channelers for over a thousand years. Likewise not going out into Randland to look for new pupils would of made sense in a period when being outside was extremely dangerous even for AS, however it makes no sense in the current Randland, where it is relatively peaceful. As its mentioned, they only train those that seek them out because that is how it has always been done; they are too blind to even consider if there was a reason why the original AS didn't go out looking for new charges (Small note the original AS in the AoL were more like the Aiel and got every single person that could channel - note that both the windfinders and Aiel get all of thier channelers). When an organization does not update with the times and the members live longer than normal lives where a single generation can create a massive history you can run into problems. This imo is part of the problem. The second generation of AS joined after there was already a hudred+ years of history, and from then on many of the AS customs were set in stone by a single group of women that were still scared from the breaking.

 

The AS is not an organization that allows for much free thought. You are one of five ajahs, and you aren't allowed to leave until the AS are done with you. In the past there were many more Ajahs, but the stronger ajahs basically removed them, and no new ajahs are allowed to be formed. So right off the bat as a new AS you would be pigeonholed into a specific group and if you don't agree with what your ajah does then tough. Inside the isolation of the White tower I'm sure the five ajahs seems like a great idea, because it allows those with more power in the source control a larger range of people into doing what they see is right. By basing their organization mostly by strength in the power they have cultivated an enviroment that is rather rigid and stagnant in development and growth. This is why Morraine basically leaves the tower as fast as possible, so that the blue ajah can not force her to become the Queen. The older and stronger AS manipulate and strong arm other AS into doing what they want, and by the time the newer AS reach their potential they are so used to manipulation being done to them, that they turn around and do it to others. Which of course is part of why the AS see nothing wrong with manipulating non channelers and expecting to get their way when they make suggestions.

 

This of course becomes a much larger issue when you remember that the AS believe that all channelers should be part of the tower. There is a huge emphasis on control and manipulation with the White Tower, and they do not like competition. This is why it is natural that many of the AS believe they should be in control of the dragon and manipulate him to their ends. It would be a horror if the Windfinders and Aiel never existed, and the fate of Randland likely would of been sealed. Not only because of the number of channelers the two groups have, but because of their different insists and how they interact with the population. In those two groups you have sections of population that both trust their channelers, and aren't restricted to rules formed by women during the breaking or with the intention to control and manipulate events.

 

Lastly they have completely miss-managed their image. They have infact completely segregated themselves from the rest of the world and for the most part, and have a very narrow view of the world. Not only has their actions made the general public mistrust them, but they have a misguided idea of their own history. They hide all of the possible blunders and mistakes of the AS and WT to make themselves seem infallable to others, but the net result is a bunch of AS that feel they can never do wrong because that is what the altered history tells them. When people think they can never do wrong because that is what they were lead to believe and those same people are manipulating other governments there are going to be massive mistakes. As a few of the PoVs have shown their have been people, towns, and entire kingdoms destroyed because of schemes a AS had planted that didn't even pan out.

 

I realise that the AS have spent the last few thousand years trying to prepare Randland for the last battle, but because of their structure and arrogance, they are going to mean little to the overall success. In the end they will be there to help fight, but all of their manipulations and attempts at control will in the end result in only allowing Rand to be born, by sending his mother into the waste. The fact that Elida staged a coup detat so close to the last battle shows just how bad the AS as a whole messed up with their attempt to save Randland from the last battle. AS I'm sure still think they are going to be the spearhead that stops the DO, but the truth is the major elements that will stop the DO will be the other portions of the population that were ignored by the AS, because they were too busy trying to manipulate events and gain power.

 

The big differnce between the Church and tar Valon is that in the case of our Universe Western Europe is not central point which the entire Universe revolves around (whatever we may think) but Randland is the key to the Last Battle all the other cultures are only peripheral players in the upcoming Last Battle.

 

If anything this makes the AS even worse. For thousands of years the AS have been preparing for the last battle, and as soon as it is close the organization goes into a complete disarray. As the AS stands not only have they not helped during the events directly before the last battle, but they are in are close to being a hinderance during the last battle. They have completely missmanaged and dropped the perverbial ball. Thankfully the series has shown a lot of other groups and individuals that will be stepping forward to fill in the massive gaps that the AS have made for themselves. Keep in mind that the actions of Elayne and Nyv should not be seen as actions of AS; as they are not indoctrined into the AS philosophy. As the story goes on Egwene's actions can be seen as those of an AS, and imo she is picking up many of the bad traits of the AS from Suian that would of been better left alone.

 

 

Now there are a few AS that do not follow the mold and have done important and good things; such as Morraine, Cadsuanne, Verrin, Nyv, and Elyane (Small note Egwene has brought a breath of fresh air to the AS with the new ideas she is bringing, however she has also developed the manipulative nature too much for my tastes, and sees Rand as someone she needs to control, as well as having the idea that all the other channelers should be part of the White Tower, which of course she is in charge of). But the overall structure of the AS is flawed in its intended goal to safeguard Randland.

 

Oh come on, let's be honest here -- the only "problem" with the White Tower is Jordan's fetish with humiliating AS. To set them up for it, he inflates AS egos to absurd proportions, and then invents prophesis to bring them down. For every arrogant AS, there is an incredibly well-adjusted Wise One ready to beat her up with moral correctness as well with her general Aiel social and military supremacy.

 

Ironically there are more well adjusted wise ones because they actually serve their people, and interact with them daily. They have not secluded themselves from the world like the AS. RJ did make an awful lot of AS with inflated egos, but I think that was mainly due to the structure of the WT.

 

Another important role the Aes Sedai have fulfilled is to keep other groups of channelers in check, for instance, preventing the sort of chaos that happened in pre-Hawkwing Seanchan with the Armies of the Night.  Their biggest mistake, as so many have pointed out on this thread, was to come to believe their own propaganda.

 

I would say that is one of the failings of the AS. They want to be the single point of power in the land, with no rivals. They don't want the land of course, but they do not want other channelers with the ability to weild the same powers, or for others to be able to manipulate events like they do.

 

Luckily they did not do a good job and the Aiel are still present, and even with all their faults so are the seachan (I do not agree with how the seachann operate, however they do have a solid and stable military force in Randland at a time when it is needed, unlike the AS that are scattered and split). Or do you think it would be better if all Aiel channelers were AS?

 

I do agree that one of their major issues is believing their propaganda, but that is imo a fuction of how the AS system is set up and was inevitable.

[Luckers]

But what I see is a group of people trying (and failing) at nothing more than perpetuation of a time and power long past.  They themselves know it's a farce, many oustide the tower know it as well, yet they do nothing but perpetuate.  They reasons to not try anything new or to create new, they cite their history of perpetuation as validation of their perpetuation.  It's asinine.  All those who do more (like Siuan and Moraine) find themselves outside the Tower and all those who have done more recently are oustide the Tower (Like Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, etc.)  Yet, even those like Siuanwho fight the Tower cannot cannot make the leap to understanding that the fault IS the Tower.

 

That's very apt, but that being said recent events are forcing themselves out of this mindset--think of the influence that the Aes Sedai who were forced to be Wise One apprentices, or da'tsang will have. Think of the influence of all the older novices who are less likely to be indoctrinated.

 

It's like Egwene's stance after beoming the Amyrlin.  She forsakes Rand and others on whom the fate of the entire world rides because the "Tower" is all that matters.  Very foolish indeed.

 

On this i disagree. Yes, Egwene gives her loyalty to the Tower, but why shouldn't she? She is Aes Sedai, and the Amyrlin. But tht does not men that she forsook Rand or any other. Consider how she trains the Wise Ones. Gives them all the weaves known to the Aes Sedai--linking, travelling....

 

And Egwene wanted to go to Rand, but was forbidden by law. Yes, Egwene's loyalty lies with the Tower, but that is as it should be.

 

And yes, poor communication is a recurring theme of this tale.  That is totally realistic; even with our "advanced" technologies today, actual communication is lacking.  We all act on imperfect knowledge; we don't have access to true POVs from our friends and enemies.  While we have that access in the WOT, the characters don't.  In a time when communication can be very slow, it is very believable that a lack of information greatly influences outcomes.

 

I agree completely with this. Very well said.

 

The Black Ajah aside, I think one of the White Tower's biggest hangups is the term "wilder." Anyone not initiated with the Tower is clearly less than someone who is. It's been mentioned serveral times in this thread already--they're victims of their own propoganda. The Sea Folk and Wise Ones aren't so impressed, though.

 

I agree...but that being said it makes sense. Aes Sedai gain a great deal of their sense of importance from being able to channel, it makes sense that they would feel threatened by other channelers, and thus seek to dismiss them.

 

That won't continue. Too many Aes Sedai have been exposed to Wise Ones, and the Wise Ones, as you state, are no longer willing to put up with it. Stupidity does not last when someone is willing to make you look stupid.

 

As for the Windfinders... they are having an effect, but honestly i regard them as so much worse than the Aes Sedai.

 

 

[DhaiMon]

It seems to be all the same with the male channelers, and Rand more than anyone.

 

They're just taking what is their due. After all, some two and more millennia of male inferiority, and then suddenly they get to play with the omnipotence of the One Power again? They do not get hunted down? They can rally together and kick people's butts before going mad? And now, with the taint gone...?

 

I think they deserve to have some ego.  ;D :P

 

 

As for Rand...He's living in a world of pain. Constantly. I think it's rather understandable that he tends to "overlook" things in that state.

 

And Egwene wanted to go to Rand, but was forbidden by law. Yes, Egwene's loyalty lies with the Tower, but that is as it should be.

I hope that set of "laws" will get some decisive revision once the hard fact of the Black Ajah being real gets revealed...

 

Aes Sedai aren't stupid. It's just their corrupted "order of things" that is.

 

As for the Windfinders... they are having an effect, but honestly i regard them as so much worse than the Aes Sedai.

 

I see them on much the same level...or then again...naw, Aes Sedai are even more nosy.  :P

[Mr Ares]

As for the Windfinders... they are having an effect, but honestly i regard them as so much worse than the Aes Sedai.

 

I see them on much the same level...or then again...naw, Aes Sedai are even more nosy.  :P

But Aes Sedai are less arrogant and more likeable.

[DhaiMon]

As for the Windfinders... they are having an effect, but honestly i regard them as so much worse than the Aes Sedai.

 

I see them on much the same level...or then again...naw, Aes Sedai are even more nosy.  :P

But Aes Sedai are less arrogant and more likeable.

And Windfinders keep their noses in Atha'an Miere business. Mainly. While Aes Sedai are convinced they need to take charge everywhere they're going.

 

That's the difference I see there, when it comes to the two. Besides...I prefer their(>the Windfinders') description. Muhar.

[Gentled Ben]

Right, instead of hoarding their gift to themselves and using it to make money by raising winds to sail their trade ships from port to port, those selfish and shortsighted Aes Sedai have the nerve to try to better the quality of life for all humans by Healing disease, settling disputes, championing justice, gentling male channelers before they wreak havoc, gathering what scraps of knowledge can be saved from the past and rediscovering as much as they can to prevent a descent into barbarism, seeking Truth so that what is most important can be discerned, and fighting the Shadow wherever they find it, however imperfectly they go about their chosen tasks. How dare they care for how the world might fare?  ::)

[DhaiMon]

Right, instead of hoarding their gift to themselves and using it to make money by raising winds to sail their trade ships from port to port, those selfish and shortsighted Aes Sedai have the nerve to try to better the quality of life for all humans by Healing disease, settling disputes, championing justice, gentling male channelers before they wreak havoc, gathering what scraps of knowledge can be saved from the past and rediscovering as much as they can to prevent a descent into barbarism, seeking Truth so that what is most important can be discerned, and fighting the Shadow wherever they find it, however imperfectly they go about their chosen tasks. How dare they care for how the world might fare?  ::)

Some would argue that they do not care enough...Besides, how come that the Atha'an Miere and practically everyone else can handle male channelers so marvelously well? Answer me that.

 

Granted, their methods are rough, since they either kill them outright or else teach them to seek their death somewhere far away. Fact remains: Compared to all other Channeler-organisations, Aes Sedai look ineffective, or if not that very full of themselves and blind.

 

EDITED to further underline my points.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Yes, Windfinders sell their gift while Aes Sedai use it for the betterment of the societies they are involved with...

 

...unless they're making cuendillar to sell, for example...but those ARE rebel Aes Sedai.  Rebels!!!!