New here with a couple of questions

[Luckers]

i believe that the BA used compulsion on the Amyrlin and asks who she sent out to search for him, and she tell them all of it except Siuan and Moiraine bacause she didn't exactly send them out. i know it's just speculation but that's the only thing i can think of.

 

We know the Black does not know compulsion--as an Ajah. There may have been those who discovered it as wilders, like Liandrin, but it was not a trained weave, and thus likely to be as inefficient as Liandrin's method.

 

The fact is that the Black Ajah did not learn everything Tamra knew. They never learnt that the Dragon had only just been born, that was why they were killing grown men, and presumably why they incited the Red into their own 'search and destroy' mission. Siuan points this out in New Spring.

 

Apparently they never learned of Siuan or Moiraine either.

 

Because Cadsuane didn't just retire to the farm in the Black Hills like was claimed? She earned each of her ter'angreal over a long period of time there. Why if she retired? Who could have had authority enough to give her, an Aes Sedai, those ter'angreal only after she earned them?

 

What? Cadsuane retired to Ghealdin, not the Black Hills, and she got her ornaments long before retiring.

 

It was just after she gained the shawl that she encounted Norla, a wilder in the black hills who apparently tempered her pride and forced her to 'earn' the ter'angreal. That would be over 250 years ago.

 

It must have been another Aes Sedai in her old age passing on the task she was given. Of course, Cadsuane's thoughts suggest her taskmistress was punished when she came out of retirement after earning all those ter'angreal, which makes me think the previous Aes Sedai died sometime after Cadsuane was picked but before she was well trained for the job.

 

Aside from the obvious--nothing suggested Norla was punished. Her thoughts state that had she been born fifty years later Norla would have been dead. Presumably from old age, given she was toothless, and yet channelers remain physically strong into old age. Norla must have been very old, likely approaching six hundred if not more.

 

Next, we see her appear only when false dragons show up and again with Rand. She appears with a very specific objective which she believes is vital to the world if he's to win the Last Battle. No other Aes Sedai has an objective when it comes to him except to lead him to accepting the White Tower as his leader. I don't believe Verin is part of some secret group but I do believe Cadsuane was given a specific task that's been handed down from one Aes Sedai to another in secret, on that farm or others like it. If nothing comes of this in book 12 I will still believe it.

 

The text aleady proves it wrong. But as a side note Cadsuane has long involved herself with men who channel. Not just false dragons, she has dealt with more men who can channel than any Red. Than any ten Reds. It fits her pattern, her personality. She looks for challanges, and men who can channel must represent that.

 

Didn't she take it on herself to try and hunt down the BA?

 

Yes, she accounts it one of her two great failures, the other being failing to find out what Moiraine was up to in Chachin around the time of New Spring.

 

 

 

i believe that the BA used compulsion on the Amyrlin and asks who she sent out to search for him, and she tell them all of it except Siuan and Moiraine bacause she didn't exactly send them out. i know it's just speculation but that's the only thing i can think of.

 

Lets assume for a moment that the BA are not complete morons, but actually do some ability to put things together...

 

It was common knowledge that Moiraine and Siuan attended tamra and Gitara when Gitara died. If they successfully tortured Tamra to give the info away that Gitara had a Foretelling, they get the bonus info that Moiraine and Siuan were the first to learn about this.

 

It was common knowledge that Moiraine and Siuan had the task of registering and organising the names of the women who had birthed a child at the time.

 

And finally, as soon as Moiraine earns the shawl, she disobeys a direct order, to go roaming the land. Now, the average Aes Sedai, without a reason to start putting things together would probably assume that Moiraine ran off to avoid getting put on the throne of Cairhien. A BA however, should start seeing a line connecting the dots here.

 

Your forgetting that the Black Ajah did not learn everything from Tamra. They began killing any man who showed signs of channeling--including Lan--showing that they were aware the Dragon was alive, but not when he had been born. As such all that about them reasoning out Moiraine and Siuan were involved goes out the window--without knowing when the Dragon was born, there is nothing overly significant in anything that happened involving them. Which means, if Tamra held them back, or did not think to mention them, they probably went undetected. All the other wierd stuff--Moiraine being placed in charge of the bounty, Moiraine fleeing Tar Valon, all is explained by the death of Laman and the Halls plans. Eadythe even spells that out, grimacing when Moiraine says that Sierin released her from the bounty but commanded she remain because the 'Hall had plans for her'.

 

 

[Majsju]

Your forgetting that the Black Ajah did not learn everything from Tamra. They began killing any man who showed signs of channeling--including Lan--showing that they were aware the Dragon was alive, but not when he had been born. As such all that about them reasoning out Moiraine and Siuan were involved goes out the window--without knowing when the Dragon was born, there is nothing overly significant in anything that happened involving them. Which means, if Tamra held them back, or did not think to mention them, they probably went undetected. All the other wierd stuff--Moiraine being placed in charge of the bounty, Moiraine fleeing Tar Valon, all is explained by the death of Laman and the Halls plans. Eadythe even spells that out, grimacing when Moiraine says that Sierin released her from the bounty but commanded she remain because the 'Hall had plans for her'.

 

 

 

I am not forgetting anything. What we can assume that the BA learned from Tamra is that the knowledge of the Dragon being reborn coming from Gitara. The same Gitara who Moiraine and Siuan happened to be in the same room as when she quite unexpectedly died. There is no need to make Tamra mention their names in order to get some very well founded suspicions that they just might have overheard something.

 

Then comes the list Moiraine and Siuan were working with. If Moiraine had been sent out, would it not make sense that she, as a newly raised Aes Sedai would get the task of checking on the newborns, while the more seasoned sisters took on the older blokes?

 

And if that did not raise the BAs suspicion, having Moiraine show up in the borderlands, and killing one of the BAs involved in the hunt should really have raised a little warning flag.

 

 

And on a sidenote, in regards to whether or not Cadsuane was involved in the search, any BA trying to attack her would be quite unpleasantly surprised.

[Luckers]

Your forgetting that the Black Ajah did not learn everything from Tamra. They began killing any man who showed signs of channeling--including Lan--showing that they were aware the Dragon was alive, but not when he had been born. As such all that about them reasoning out Moiraine and Siuan were involved goes out the window--without knowing when the Dragon was born, there is nothing overly significant in anything that happened involving them. Which means, if Tamra held them back, or did not think to mention them, they probably went undetected. All the other wierd stuff--Moiraine being placed in charge of the bounty, Moiraine fleeing Tar Valon, all is explained by the death of Laman and the Halls plans. Eadythe even spells that out, grimacing when Moiraine says that Sierin released her from the bounty but commanded she remain because the 'Hall had plans for her'.

 

 

 

I am not forgetting anything. What we can assume that the BA learned from Tamra is that the knowledge of the Dragon being reborn coming from Gitara. The same Gitara who Moiraine and Siuan happened to be in the same room as when she quite unexpectedly died. There is no need to make Tamra mention their names in order to get some very well founded suspicions that they just might have overheard something.

 

Then comes the list Moiraine and Siuan were working with. If Moiraine had been sent out, would it not make sense that she, as a newly raised Aes Sedai would get the task of checking on the newborns, while the more seasoned sisters took on the older blokes?

 

And if that did not raise the BAs suspicion, having Moiraine show up in the borderlands, and killing one of the BAs involved in the hunt should really have raised a little warning flag.

 

 

And on a sidenote, in regards to whether or not Cadsuane was involved in the search, any BA trying to attack her would be quite unpleasantly surprised.

 

I'm sorry, but quite clearly Tamra did not reveal that the information came from Gitara--if she did then it would have been obvious that the bounty was enacted as a method of finding the Dragon's name. She could not have even have hinted that Gitara was her source. No Black Sister worth her mustard would have missed that the source of Tamra's information died the night before Tamra started an effort to find the names of any babies born near Dragonmount.

 

Because, and i repeat, the Black knew the Dragon had been reborn, but not when. They were looking for a man, not a newborn. Knowing of Gitara would have led to when, and so would knowing of Siuan and Moiraine.

[Tyrell]

The woman who gave Cadsuane the various hair ornaments was Norla, a "toothless wilder" not an Aes Sedai, not a member of a secret ajah. Cadsuane encountered her when she had just been raised to the shawl and was in need of a good humbling.

 

All coming from Cads thoughts, unless she lies to herself in her own thoughts just in case we're listening in?

 

Can someone please post a reference from the books where this is found?

Thank you.

 

Several people above have added to what I said and pointed you in the right direction. Exact quotations to follow :

 

And she had not put through the lessons that what must be endured, could be endured. In truth, Cadsuane sympathised with her. Somewhat. It was a lesson not everyone could learn in the Tower. She herself,full of pride in her new shawl and her own strength, had been taught by a near toothless wilder at a farm in the heart of the Black Hills.

 

But fifty years would have meant that Norla died in her little house in the Black Hills

[trakand_01]

I have always believed Moiraine was the woman in Min's viewing, the 'dead and gone' woman. I have also believed for a long time that this is because she was the one that really started off the 'list' that Rand keeps and repeats regularly to himself, followed by Liah. Rand regularly comments that 'one name was burned in fire' or something like that.

 

I think that Rand is going to have to face and potentially kill a woman directly OR send hundreds of maidens to their certain death and if Moiraine stays 'dead', he'll bottle it and not be able to do it, thus scuppering his chances. If Moiraine DOES reappear I think it will be what that signifies for Rand's list and the 'dont put women to harm' mentality that he has.

 

Didn't Rand vow to listen to her advice, and she vowed not to meddle? I think he'll stand to that if/when she reappears.

[Jethro]

That Min thinks this, that rand will almost certainly fail without a woman dead and gone, ie Moiraine, pretty much tells us that Min has had a viewing regarding Moiraines importance to the outcome of TG.

 

No, it doesnt. Rand failing without a woman dead and gone can only "fail" if he succeeds without that woman. Since he hasnt won or lost yet-something Min knows just as well as you or I-what reason has she to call it a failed viewing? The outcome hasnt come about yet, so it cannot be a failed viewing; it is a pending one.

[MikeRiley]

Aside from the obvious--nothing suggested Norla was punished. Her thoughts state that had she been born fifty years later Norla would have been dead. Presumably from old age, given she was toothless, and yet channelers remain physically strong into old age. Norla must have been very old, likely approaching six hundred if not more.

 

My theory's been shot full of holes, so there's that. But Cadsuane did have a thought at one point that suggested she punished Norla after she got the last ter'angreal. I'm thinking it was in Crossroads of Twilight but it could have been a bit earlier.

 

The Black Ajah did not know about Moraine and Suian. The one who met up with Moraine in New Spring up in the borderlands started to suspect it about the same time Moraine started to suspect she was Black. The reason for this is because nobody notices a servant and that's how the Aes Sedai saw accepted. They were girls until they attained the shawl. It either would have slipped Tamra's mind or she was ordered to tell them who she sent out and she never sent those two.

 

The Black Ajah wouldn't have been able to connect the dots. Moraine's father was killed and everybody knew there was a plot forming to put her on Cairhien's throne, which she didn't want. They chalked up her doing the clerks' work (again, pointless servant stuff) to grief. Suian's help with it was a friend helping a friend. So she ran off the first chance she could after attaining the shawl. Suian stayed in the Tower so she couldn't have been hunter. This further aided Moraine because a hunter wouldn't have been kept at home.

 

Anyway, the only real proof that's needed for why the Black Ajah didn't know Moraine and Suian were hunting the Dragon Reborn is that they are alive in Eye of the World. All the other hunters that were sent out were murdered by the Black's hunters.

 

Moraine's death would cause that viewing to fail. That "woman dead and gone" part wasn't in the viewing, that's Min explaining why the viewing failed.

[Jethro]

Moraine's death would cause that viewing to fail. That "woman dead and gone" part wasn't in the viewing, that's Min explaining why the viewing failed.

 

Yet the viewing is still pending without a shadow of a doubt, since Rand hasnt failed or succeeded, and Moiraine is still alive. If Rand succeeds without Moiraine, that is the only way that viewing can fail.

[MikeRiley]

Who besides the Creator, Dark One, author and the readers knows Moraine is still alive? Possibly Thom but I really doubt he told Min. If you ask Min, Rand, Lan, Suian or anybody else, Moraine is dead. The viewing did not actually fail but to Min who believes Moraine is dead, it did.

[Swigaro]

Moraine's death would cause that viewing to fail. That "woman dead and gone" part wasn't in the viewing, that's Min explaining why the viewing failed.

 

Yet the viewing is still pending without a shadow of a doubt, since Rand hasnt failed or succeeded, and Moiraine is still alive. If Rand succeeds without Moiraine, that is the only way that viewing can fail.

 

The vision is about Moiraine, though.  Min saw her doing something, she is dead (in Min's opinion) and can't do it, hence failed vision.  If Rand wins the last battle without Moiraine, Min's viewing about Moiraine would still have failed, as she would not have fulfiled the vision.  The Last Battle is irrelivant.  We have more information than Min does.  We all know that Moiraine is alive, if, perhaps not well.  Thus, we know it is not a failed vision in any case.  As far as Min, and just about everyone except Matt, Thom and company know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that she is dead.  The fact that they are wrong is irrelivant.  Min had a viewing that tied Moirane to Rand's success at the last battle.  As far as Min is concerned, Moiraine died before she could complete whatever task her viewing indicated was necessary for Rand to succeed, hence failed vision.  We know it is pending, but it is not fair to suggest that Min should.

[Jethro]

No, Min saw Rand failing without Moiraine, which some people here think is the one that failed. Yet I cant put it any clearer that, since the viewing states Rand would fail without Moiraine, the viewing has plenty of time to fail or succeed yet because Rand has neither succeeded nor failed yet. Things like who knows Moiraine is alive are irrelevant. The fact that Min believes Moiraine dead means nothing at all, because Rand still hasnt won or failed yet. If Rand failed without Moiraine, or succeeded with her, then the vision was true. If Rand succeeds without her, then AND ONLY THEN will the viewing be a failed one regardless of who knows Moiraine is alive.

[Swigaro]

No, Min saw Rand failing without Moiraine, which some people here think is the one that failed. Yet I cant put it any clearer that, since the viewing states Rand would fail without Moiraine, the viewing has plenty of time to fail or succeed yet because Rand has neither succeeded nor failed yet. Things like who knows Moiraine is alive are irrelevant. The fact that Min believes Moiraine dead means nothing at all, because Rand still hasnt won or failed yet. If Rand failed without Moiraine, or succeeded with her, then the vision was true. If Rand succeeds without her, then AND ONLY THEN will the viewing be a failed one regardless of who knows Moiraine is alive.

 

 

The vision is not about Rand failing.  Her belief that Rand will fail is her interpratation of the vision.  The vision is about Moiraine, not Rand.  Rand's success or failure is irrelivant to the vision in question. We do not know, specificly what Min saw.  She said "Rand was almost certain to fail without a woman dead and gone," then, several paragraphs later that the only vision she ever had that failed was about Moiraine.  Most assume that she is refering to the same vision in both cases.  The bottom line is that she saw Moiraine doing something integral to Rand's success at the last battle that she believes can no longer happen because she is dead.  What Min believes is key, as it is she herself who refers to it as a failed vision. 

[Jethro]

Im still not convinced but I'll leave it at that. Sorry if I seem harsh about it chaps.

[mb]

About the viewing of Rand failing, it is of a woman dead & gone; not necessarily Moiraine, though Moiraine may be a candidate.

 

Which is why Min immidiatly after jumps to thinking about how she was not expecting Moiraine to return from the dead, and how Moiraine was the only viewing of hers to have ever failed. Now, if she had a viewing about Rand failing without yet another dead woman, that would make it two failed viewings.

 

Like I pointed in another thread, Caroline Damodred prompted the thought of Moiraine.

 

[Luckers]

My theory's been shot full of holes, so there's that. But Cadsuane did have a thought at one point that suggested she punished Norla after she got the last ter'angreal. I'm thinking it was in Crossroads of Twilight but it could have been a bit earlier.

 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but no she didn't. She thinks of Norla only twice, and neither in the punitive.

 

The Black Ajah wouldn't have been able to connect the dots. Moraine's father was killed and everybody knew there was a plot forming to put her on Cairhien's throne, which she didn't want. They chalked up her doing the clerks' work (again, pointless servant stuff) to grief. Suian's help with it was a friend helping a friend. So she ran off the first chance she could after attaining the shawl. Suian stayed in the Tower so she couldn't have been hunter. This further aided Moraine because a hunter wouldn't have been kept at home.

 

That was her uncle, Laman, not her father who died during her first year in the Tower, nearly five years prior.

 

Quote from: Majsju on February 07, 2009, 06:03:10 PM

Quote

About the viewing of Rand failing, it is of a woman dead & gone; not necessarily Moiraine, though Moiraine may be a candidate.

 

Which is why Min immidiatly after jumps to thinking about how she was not expecting Moiraine to return from the dead, and how Moiraine was the only viewing of hers to have ever failed. Now, if she had a viewing about Rand failing without yet another dead woman, that would make it two failed viewings.

 

Like I pointed in another thread, Caroline Damodred prompted the thought of Moiraine.

 

Yes, we know--and when she realised it was Caroline and not Moiraine she berated herself for feeling hope that her vision had not failed--ergo the failed vision is about Moiraine. Caroline prompting the thought is how we know it.

[MikeRiley]

Uncle.. father, small mistake. And yes she did, I'll try to find it tomorrow when I can get to my books.

[Luckers]

*shrug* Suit yourself. I wasn't meaning to antagonize you.

[agaga]

Uncle.. father, small mistake. And yes she did, I'll try to find it tomorrow when I can get to my books.

 

I think you're talking about the distant cousins she looses in NS and she pretends to grieve even though she can't find it in herself to care. Which was how she kept herself doing clerk work with SS while they hashed out there plan to hunt down the DR after getting the shawl.

[mb]

Quote from: Majsju on February 07, 2009, 06:03:10 PM

Quote

About the viewing of Rand failing, it is of a woman dead & gone; not necessarily Moiraine, though Moiraine may be a candidate.

 

Which is why Min immidiatly after jumps to thinking about how she was not expecting Moiraine to return from the dead, and how Moiraine was the only viewing of hers to have ever failed. Now, if she had a viewing about Rand failing without yet another dead woman, that would make it two failed viewings.

 

Like I pointed in another thread, Caroline Damodred prompted the thought of Moiraine.

 

Yes, we know--and when she realised it was Caroline and not Moiraine she berated herself for feeling hope that her vision had not failed--ergo the failed vision is about Moiraine. Caroline prompting the thought is how we know it.

 

Rand's being tavern bringing Caroline Damodred to the location so that Min may know who may fulfill the other viewing?  Maybe, yet the books do not have proof.

 

 

This thread started with the question of what was the failed viewing of Moiraine.

It being marriage with Thom seems the most likely, and Min telling at least Moiraine seems likely.  Here is support::

-Moiraine's certainty of Thom being alive when she and Rand and the others were traveling through the Ways.

-Moiraine telling Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne that she being more certain of who she will marry than those 3.

-Moiraine's certainty that Thom would survive Tanchico.

-The implied romance in Egwene's dream of Thom rescuing Moiraine.

 

[CUBAREY]

It being marriage with Thom seems the most likely, and Min telling at least Moiraine seems likely.  Here is support::

-Moiraine's certainty of Thom being alive when she and Rand and the others were traveling through the Ways.

-Moiraine telling Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne that she being more certain of who she will marry than those 3.

-Moiraine's certainty that Thom would survive Tanchico.

-The implied romance in Egwene's dream of Thom rescuing Moiraine.

 

When exactly was Min supposed to have had such a vission (and what proof do you have that she told Moiraine).

[Luckers]

Quote from: Majsju on February 07, 2009, 06:03:10 PM

Quote

About the viewing of Rand failing, it is of a woman dead & gone; not necessarily Moiraine, though Moiraine may be a candidate.

 

Which is why Min immidiatly after jumps to thinking about how she was not expecting Moiraine to return from the dead, and how Moiraine was the only viewing of hers to have ever failed. Now, if she had a viewing about Rand failing without yet another dead woman, that would make it two failed viewings.

 

Like I pointed in another thread, Caroline Damodred prompted the thought of Moiraine.

 

Yes, we know--and when she realised it was Caroline and not Moiraine she berated herself for feeling hope that her vision had not failed--ergo the failed vision is about Moiraine. Caroline prompting the thought is how we know it.

 

Rand's being tavern bringing Caroline Damodred to the location so that Min may know who may fulfill the other viewing?  Maybe, yet the books do not have proof.

 

 

This thread started with the question of what was the failed viewing of Moiraine.

It being marriage with Thom seems the most likely, and Min telling at least Moiraine seems likely.  Here is support::

-Moiraine's certainty of Thom being alive when she and Rand and the others were traveling through the Ways.

-Moiraine telling Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne that she being more certain of who she will marry than those 3.

-Moiraine's certainty that Thom would survive Tanchico.

-The implied romance in Egwene's dream of Thom rescuing Moiraine.

 

 

What are you talking about. Min had a viewing about Rand needing Moiraine in some way in order to succeed. When Moiraine apparently dies Min concluded the vision false. When Min saw Caroline she felt hope because she looked liked Moiraine, then berated herself for that hope.

 

End of game.

[Jethro]

It being marriage with Thom seems the most likely

 

This is my belief, and I will explain why it appeals the most to me.

 

Moiraine knew Min before Min was introduced to us, for long enough or at least well enough for Min to trust her. I think that before we ever met Min, Moiraine asked her what images appeared around Moiraine herself, and Min saw the face of the man she would marry. Moiraine didn't need to know who it was in order to "know the face" of the person. Note the way she words it; she said she knew the face of the man, and going off the Oath, which goes off how you word something and what you believe, Moiraine worded it in a way that I personally can interpret in one way only. Moiraine may have thought Thom looks like the description Min gave her when Moiraine first saw him in the Two Rivers, or not, but I think Min gave Moiraine confirmation when Min first saw him, which is how Moiraine knew Thom would survive going to wherever it was.

 

Note, that some of Mins viewings have been relevant to both Rand and Perrins love lives at least, so viewings of marriages are not uncommon.

[Swigaro]

Min's comentary about the failed vision suggests that it is directly tied into The Last Battle.  While I will admit it is possible, I just can't see Moiraine's marital status having any impact on Rand's success at Tarmon Gaidon.  Moiraine has had access to several other sources of information on her future, the Finns, the accepted test and the test in Ruhidian.  I think it is much more logical to assumem that Min's "failed viewing" is about Moiraine standing at Rand's side during the last battle (or providing some other necessary service to Rand) than to assume it is about her wedding.  The marriage vision didn't have to come from Min, there are many other, more plausible options.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

From WOT Ecyclopedia...

 

[ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 543]

Min thinks to herself... "He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone..."

 

The most likely person for this to be referring to is Moiraine, who everybody thinks is dead. I agree

 

 

[ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 546]

Min thinks to herself... "it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."

 

Obviously Min had some viewing of Moiraine which had not been fulfilled by the time Moir took a header through the Red Door. WE know Min is never wrong, and thus, Moiraine will be back!

 

I think the evidence in the story is clear.  The "failed viewing" relates to Moiraine, without whom, Rand is likely to fail at TG!

 

What's left to debate?

[mb]

It being marriage with Thom seems the most likely, and Min telling at least Moiraine seems likely.  Here is support::

-Moiraine's certainty of Thom being alive when she and Rand and the others were traveling through the Ways.

-Moiraine telling Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne that she being more certain of who she will marry than those 3.

-Moiraine's certainty that Thom would survive Tanchico.

-The implied romance in Egwene's dream of Thom rescuing Moiraine.

 

When exactly was Min supposed to have had such a vission (and what proof do you have that she told Moiraine).

 

Min most likely had the viewing when Moiraine arrived at the Inn with Thom and the others; and telling Moiraine was likely some private time before the company left.  I do not have proof that Min told Moiraine, but the first 3 points I brought up are a good indicator that Moiraine was told.