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New here with a couple of questions


ElVato
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I am new to this forum. I was on another one before. I am reading this series again and there are a couple of things that I was wondering about. Actually one is a question and the other is sort of a theory. Mins says that her viewing of Moraine is the only that didn't come to pass. Does it tell in any of the books what her viewing of Moraine was? I don't remember reading it anywhere. While it I don't think Verin is black ajah she has done some things that go hand it hand with the 3 oaths. I was wondering if perhaps her and Cadsuane were part of a group from sometime in that past that have been looking for the Dragon reborn as well. While I don't remember ever reading how old she is, we know that she was around for a while.

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Common theory is that Min's viewing about Moiraine was related to Thom.

 

I don't get your question with Verin. I doubt she ever had any special affiliation with Cadsuane. It's doubtful that she ever intentionally sought out the Dragon Reborn. No Aes Sedai had any reason to suspect Rand's coming except Siuan and Moiraine because they were in the company of the woman who had the Foretelling about Rand's coming at the time of the Foretelling.

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Min's failed viewing of Moiraine, the books never tell what it is; but it has been speculated that the viewing is marriage with Thom.

 

There has been speculation that there was a secret Purple Ajah and that Verin was/is part of it.

 

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No Aes Sedai had any reason to suspect Rand's coming except Siuan and Moiraine because they were in the company of the woman who had the Foretelling about Rand's coming at the time of the Foretelling.

 

that is true, as we knoow. its possible we werent privy to some other foretelling that was less specific.

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Been awhile since I read New Spring.  The fortelling of Gitara Moroso was known by Moiraine, Siuan, and the then current Amyrlin Seat.  Like I said, been awhile since I read it, but I do remember there was a lot of crap that happened around that time with the Black Ajah and Amyrlins dying and whatnot...possible that the BA found out about the fortelling, and that Cads happened to catch some BA, put them to the question and then she found out about the Dragon being Reborn.

 

Just a thought, hope someone who has a photographic memory can come along and straighten it all out =)

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Mins viewing about Moiraine is about how Rand will fail without her. 

The connection with Thom is not Mins viewing, it is a dream Egwene has in TFOH, where she sees Thom pull Moiraines blue stone out of a fire.

 

Moiraine and Siuan were not the only ones who learned about the Dragon being reborn. Tamra, the Amyrlin at the time sent out several more seasoned Aes Sedai to search for Rand. It is possible that Cadsuane was a part of this search.

That Cadsuane and verin would have been in some secret group working together, that is extremely unlikely if you look at the exchange of words they have in WH, where Verin seems quite prepared to kill Cadsuane, until cadsuane tells her about her intentions for Rand.

 

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The connection with Thom is not Mins viewing, it is a dream Egwene has in TFOH, where she sees Thom pull Moiraines blue stone out of a fire.

 

I'm fairly certain that while never said explicitly on-screen, Min did have a vision about Moiraine and Thom. Neither of them may have known it was Thom at the time of the vision, but I'm fairly certain that Min saw Moiraine and Thom's connection.

 

Edit: Of course, it's a moot point as it makes more sense that Min's vision of Rand needing Moiraine is the culprit.

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Of course, it's a moot point as it makes more sense that Min's vision of Rand needing Moiraine is the culprit

 

Not only does it make more sense, Min also refers to the viewing of Rand "almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone" as being the only viewing of hers that had ever fail.

 

 

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I disagree with the idea that the failed viewing was regarding Rand failing without Moiraine.

 

If Rand might fail without Moiraine, then we will not know until the last minute whether or not the viewing was false. Do you see what I mean? Rand hasnt failed yet, but he still might. The condition of the viewing (Rand failing without Moiraine) is still pending. Rand could get Moiraine back yet. I think when Min thought "he will fail without a woman dead and gone" I believe her point was that she thinks Rand will fail because Moiraine is dead and gone. But, since we know she is still alive, Rand may still have a chance if he gets her back.

 

Thats what I think anyway. Moiraine said early on that she knew the face of the one she would marry better than any of the girls. How does she know that? I think Min told her, just after she first saw Thom. If I remember right, Min said that the full group was "part of it" meaning the struggle they were working towards, and that included Egwene and Thom. That means she will have looked at Egwene and Thoms auras, and told Moiraine. I think she saw Moiraine getting married to Thom straightaway.

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Mins viewing about Moiraine is about how Rand will fail without her. 

The connection with Thom is not Mins viewing, it is a dream Egwene has in TFOH, where she sees Thom pull Moiraines blue stone out of a fire.

 

About the viewing of Rand failing, it is of a woman dead & gone; not necessarily Moiraine, though Moiraine may be a candidate.

Egwene's dream, I take that to be Thom being one of Moiraine's rescuers; not necessarily marrying her.

 

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Moiraine and Siuan were not the only ones who learned about the Dragon being reborn. Tamra, the Amyrlin at the time sent out several more seasoned Aes Sedai to search for Rand. It is possible that Cadsuane was a part of this search.

 

but we find out later that they were all killed by Black Ajah, although there is a small chance that some may have escaped somehow

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I disagree with the idea that the failed viewing was regarding Rand failing without Moiraine.

 

If Rand might fail without Moiraine, then we will not know until the last minute whether or not the viewing was false. Do you see what I mean? Rand hasnt failed yet, but he still might. The condition of the viewing (Rand failing without Moiraine) is still pending. Rand could get Moiraine back yet. I think when Min thought "he will fail without a woman dead and gone" I believe her point was that she thinks Rand will fail because Moiraine is dead and gone. But, since we know she is still alive, Rand may still have a chance if he gets her back.

 

Thats what I think anyway. Moiraine said early on that she knew the face of the one she would marry better than any of the girls. How does she know that? I think Min told her, just after she first saw Thom. If I remember right, Min said that the full group was "part of it" meaning the struggle they were working towards, and that included Egwene and Thom. That means she will have looked at Egwene and Thoms auras, and told Moiraine. I think she saw Moiraine getting married to Thom straightaway.

 

That Min thinks this, that rand will almost certainly fail without a woman dead and gone, ie Moiraine, pretty much tells us that Min has had a viewing regarding Moiraines importance to the outcome of TG. And since Min believes Moiraine to be dead, that viewing has failed. The other option is that she was so impressed by Moiraines mad skills that she believes Rand does not have a chance without her. Sounds like a pretty darn stupid belief for Min to have, considering that Rand has managed quite well since Moiraines "death".

 

About the viewing of Rand failing, it is of a woman dead & gone not; necessarily Moiraine, though Moiraine may be a candidate.

 

Which is why Min immidiatly after jumps to thinking about how she was not expecting Moiraine to return from the dead, and how Moiraine was the only viewing of hers to have ever failed. Now, if she had a viewing about Rand failing without yet another dead woman, that would make it two failed viewings.

 

but we find out later that they were all killed by Black Ajah, although there is a small chance that some may have escaped somehow

 

Moiraine and Siuan "escaped somehow"...

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Moraine and Suian escaped because Tamra didn't know they were on the hunt. When the Black Ajah put her to the question she would have given up the names of every Aes Sedai who was sent out. We see in New Spring that they were tracking each of them down while hunting for the Dragon Reborn themselves. Moraine would have died anyway at the end but the only Black sister who knew she was on the hunt was killed by her.

 

I think Cadsuane is part of a secret group. Not a separate ajah but her task was handed down likely unknown to anybody but the one who handed it to her.

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I think Cadsuane is part of a secret group. Not a separate ajah but her task was handed down likely unknown to anybody but the one who handed it to her.

 

I've seen this before, and Verin gets her own secret group too from some people--and ive never seen why. Why can't these women simply be enacting there own ideas, as opposed to being involved in conspiracies--it certainly fits their personalities better.

 

 

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but we find out later that they were all killed by Black Ajah, although there is a small chance that some may have escaped somehow

 

Moiraine and Siuan "escaped somehow"...

 

i believe that the BA used compulsion on the Amyrlin and asks who she sent out to search for him, and she tell them all of it except Siuan and Moiraine bacause she didn't exactly send them out. i know it's just speculation but that's the only thing i can think of.

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I think Cadsuane is part of a secret group. Not a separate ajah but her task was handed down likely unknown to anybody but the one who handed it to her.

 

I've seen this before, and Verin gets her own secret group too from some people--and ive never seen why. Why can't these women simply be enacting there own ideas, as opposed to being involved in conspiracies--it certainly fits their personalities better.

 

 

 

Because Cadsuane didn't just retire to the farm in the Black Hills like was claimed? She earned each of her ter'angreal over a long period of time there. Why if she retired? Who could have had authority enough to give her, an Aes Sedai, those ter'angreal only after she earned them? It must have been another Aes Sedai in her old age passing on the task she was given. Of course, Cadsuane's thoughts suggest her taskmistress was punished when she came out of retirement after earning all those ter'angreal, which makes me think the previous Aes Sedai died sometime after Cadsuane was picked but before she was well trained for the job. Note how her ter'angreal all serve purposes that specifically aid her in this task. Next, we see her appear only when false dragons show up and again with Rand. She appears with a very specific objective which she believes is vital to the world if he's to win the Last Battle. No other Aes Sedai has an objective when it comes to him except to lead him to accepting the White Tower as his leader. I don't believe Verin is part of some secret group but I do believe Cadsuane was given a specific task that's been handed down from one Aes Sedai to another in secret, on that farm or others like it. If nothing comes of this in book 12 I will still believe it.

 

Edit: Also, I have on good account that Bush personally piloted one of the planes and bailed out just before it hit the first building ¬_¬

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The woman who gave Cadsuane the various hair ornaments was Norla, a "toothless wilder" not an Aes Sedai, not a member of a secret ajah. Cadsuane encountered her when she had just been raised to the shawl and was in need of a good humbling.

 

All coming from Cads thoughts, unless she lies to herself in her own thoughts just in case we're listening in?

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i believe that the BA used compulsion on the Amyrlin and asks who she sent out to search for him, and she tell them all of it except Siuan and Moiraine bacause she didn't exactly send them out. i know it's just speculation but that's the only thing i can think of.

 

Lets assume for a moment that the BA are not complete morons, but actually do some ability to put things together...

 

It was common knowledge that Moiraine and Siuan attended tamra and Gitara when Gitara died. If they successfully tortured Tamra to give the info away that Gitara had a Foretelling, they get the bonus info that Moiraine and Siuan were the first to learn about this.

 

It was common knowledge that Moiraine and Siuan had the task of registering and organising the names of the women who had birthed a child at the time.

 

And finally, as soon as Moiraine earns the shawl, she disobeys a direct order, to go roaming the land. Now, the average Aes Sedai, without a reason to start putting things together would probably assume that Moiraine ran off to avoid getting put on the throne of Cairhien. A BA however, should start seeing a line connecting the dots here.

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The woman who gave Cadsuane the various hair ornaments was Norla, a "toothless wilder" not an Aes Sedai, not a member of a secret ajah. Cadsuane encountered her when she had just been raised to the shawl and was in need of a good humbling.

 

All coming from Cads thoughts, unless she lies to herself in her own thoughts just in case we're listening in?

 

Can someone please post a reference from the books where this is found?

Thank you.

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When I mentioned Verin or Cadsuane belonging to a group I actually wasn't thinking of of a secret ajah. I had something similar to the knitting circle in mind but was perhaps a select group of AS's who had retired. As far as Verin being prepared to kill Cadsuane, I thought that had happend after she had sworn fealty to Rand and I had chalked it up to being that oath that she took. But now that it is brought up, my memory is not too good but I think Verin was one of the ones at DW that swore fealty to the dragon reborn.

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Can someone please post a reference from the books where this is found?

Thank you.

I find encyclopaedia WoT very helpful when I want to look up character's thoughts/experiences. Go to the first page and search among "Characters".

 

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

 

In this case we have:..."Shortly after attaining the shawl, Cadsuane is taught a humbling lesson by Norla, a toothless wilder in the Black Hills. (WH,Ch34, CoT,Ch23)". I hope that's the reference that Tyrell had in mind (haven't looked it up myself).

 

 

 

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