The Three of us

[Ziggdiezan]

Hey this is my first post. Umm was re reading all the books and came across Winters Heart page 437. When Lews Therin says " Now you have someones else to destroy, and not beforetime. How many will we three kill before the end, I wonder."

I have looked on the wotmania and havent found anything on the "third" any info someone posts would be great.

 

thanks alot

[mb]

This page talks about it::

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.7_thirdman.html

 

The first 2 theories the page mentions to me seem the most reasonable.

Edit: If the 3rd is an outside person, Moridin would be most reasonable because of the balefire incident between him and Rand.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Okay thanks. also i forget what book did the balefire thingy happen  ???

 

thanks alot

[mb]

what book did the balefire thingy happen?

 

It was Crown of Swords last chapter.

 

[Luckers]

The third is Moridin. We know this as a fact as of KoD in which Rand finally sees his face clearly and recognises him as the man from Shadar Logoth.

[Jethro]

There are also theories on a certain line in Rands PoV. It said something like "the Creator is like a gardener. If a plant dies, the gardener moves on and plants something else." Some believe it was a thought of Moridin that came across via the link, the reason being that Rand wondered where that thought came from, doubtful that it was his own, yet when the thought came, Rand noted that Lews Therin seemed to have been listening at the same time. I hope it really was Moridin, because for a while I have wanted communication to become part of the link, for Moridin to taunt Rand telepathically in a buildup to their confrontation. I hope Rand learns who Moridin is before Moridin dies.

[MikeRiley]

The "sheathe the sword" plot isn't finished yet. I bet Rand will realize he's linked with Moridin and understand that in order to win he has to kill himself (and Moridin). Of course the link would have to increase first, probably with an epic power fight. I consider this a plot because it's been brought up many times throughout the books and we have yet to see it done. Robert Jordan didn't really throw in useless things like that, he had a habit of making use of everything. I like to think it's foreshadowing the last battle from so far back as Rand and Lan training on a tower top in Fal Dara.

[Luckers]

I believe the link is moving towards an eventual bodyswap. There's threads about it out there if your curious--but i will raise one issue, the link does not need a fight with the power to grow in strength, it has been consistantly growing in strength since it formed. Rand's perceptions of Moridin have been growing sharper and sharper as time passes until finally in KoD he can actually see him.

[Jyxxer]

The "sheathe the sword" plot isn't finished yet. I bet Rand will realize he's linked with Moridin and understand that in order to win he has to kill himself (and Moridin). Of course the link would have to increase first, probably with an epic power fight. I consider this a plot because it's been brought up many times throughout the books and we have yet to see it done. Robert Jordan didn't really throw in useless things like that, he had a habit of making use of everything. I like to think it's foreshadowing the last battle from so far back as Rand and Lan training on a tower top in Fal Dara.

 

I laughed when I re-read Eye of the World, and he said, or thought to himself, "I'd rather cut off my hand than channel saidin again!".. haha. I agree the sheathing the sword will hopefully play out, but if he dies to sever the link with Moridin, it's going to crush his three women too. 

 

I believe the link is moving towards an eventual bodyswap. There's threads about it out there if your curious--but i will raise one issue, the link does not need a fight with the power to grow in strength, it has been consistantly growing in strength since it formed. Rand's perceptions of Moridin have been growing sharper and sharper as time passes until finally in KoD he can actually see him.

I think back to a vision Min had of Rand and some other man merging and becoming one man, or something like that?  Rand laughed because he thought he knew that meant he wasn't crazy about Lews Therin, but maybe it has more to do with him absorbing Moridin's... thread??

 

[Luckers]

Alot more. Here's the thread. http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,31778.0.html

[Jethro]

Very informative. Ive thought for a while the link could cause them to switch bodies, for two reasons. The first being that Rand feels like "if either moves a hairswidth, they will touch," and the second being that the link makes it hard for him to channel, and also the two unhealing wounds. Its not often that you find a post on a theory with that many quotations that all tie in together.

 

There are a couple of minor details I disagree on though. For example, if-or when, hopefully-Rand did sever Moridins connection to the Great Lord and then took his body, I think that will only be end of the Dragon Reborn versus Nae'blis thread, and will not be Rands winning stroke. I think doing so would simply mean that Rand now has a healthy body and can channel safely again; now, he can fight the Dark One to the best of his ability. Not too sure about Alivia and Rand killing Moridin-in-Rands-body either, but I dont have any better ideas for her involvement myself. And also I wonder about the wording of Mins viewing about them merging, and one dies and the other lives. It sounds like she meant one would die as a result of the merging. I like to think that Rand will invade Moridins body, and Moridin will die as a result.

[Mr Ares]

The "sheathe the sword" plot isn't finished yet. I consider this a plot because it's been brought up many times throughout the books and we have yet to see it done. Robert Jordan didn't really throw in useless things like that, he had a habit of making use of everything. I like to think it's foreshadowing the last battle from so far back as Rand and Lan training on a tower top in Fal Dara.

Well, he did Sheath the Sword when fighting Ishamael in the sky, as did Ingtar. When has it been brought up since then?

[MikeRiley]

We have a reminder of that from Lan in Far Madding I believe, another with Galad in Knife of Dream's prologue. Rand didn't sheath the sword with Ishmael. He used a suicidal sword stance, sure, but that's different. I think the idea of sheathing the sword is going to be a big part of Rand's thoughts during the last battle. Especially if he becomes linked with the Dark One's champion. It would also be just like Robert Jordan to hint on the end of the series that far back. The idea is certainly used all the time. Hero gets advice, goes on a long hard journey, is failing miserably, recalls the advice given so long ago, uses it, wins.

[Luckers]

There are a couple of minor details I disagree on though. For example, if-or when, hopefully-Rand did sever Moridins connection to the Great Lord and then took his body, I think that will only be end of the Dragon Reborn versus Nae'blis thread, and will not be Rands winning stroke. I think doing so would simply mean that Rand now has a healthy body and can channel safely again; now, he can fight the Dark One to the best of his ability. Not too sure about Alivia and Rand killing Moridin-in-Rands-body either, but I dont have any better ideas for her involvement myself. And also I wonder about the wording of Mins viewing about them merging, and one dies and the other lives. It sounds like she meant one would die as a result of the merging. I like to think that Rand will invade Moridins body, and Moridin will die as a result.

 

I didn't actually suggest that it would be the end blow for the Shadow. I think Rand will still have a fight after the swap, though my guess is Moridin (or rather Rand's body) gets burned out in the fight.

 

Thats guess work though. On the issue of Rand and Alivia killing Moridin-in-Rand's body--Min states that Alivia will help Rand die. Her viewings are always correct, yet too we know Rand lives on. The only viable explanation i can think of is that Alivia helps Rand kill Moridin in his body. The words fit--in the wheel the word 'death' is linked to the body, as we know from the transmigrated forsaken who refer to their deaths. Alivia must asist Rand in his dying--it must be his desire, that she aids him in. Yet he must also live beyond that.

 

The only viable explanation that fits all the prophecies is that Alivia helps Rand kill Moridin-in-Rand body.

 

We have a reminder of that from Lan in Far Madding I believe, another with Galad in Knife of Dream's prologue. Rand didn't sheath the sword with Ishmael. He used a suicidal sword stance, sure, but that's different. I think the idea of sheathing the sword is going to be a big part of Rand's thoughts during the last battle. Especially if he becomes linked with the Dark One's champion. It would also be just like Robert Jordan to hint on the end of the series that far back. The idea is certainly used all the time. Hero gets advice, goes on a long hard journey, is failing miserably, recalls the advice given so long ago, uses it, wins.

 

His intention was that he die. He used Heron Wading in the Rushes expecting to die, but ok with it because it saved Egwene and the others. The only reason he did not die was because Lanfear healed him.

 

I'd say, thematically, RJ used Sheathing the Sword already.

[Majsju]

 

 

The only viable explanation that fits all the prophecies is that Alivia helps Rand kill Moridin-in-Rand body.

 

 

 

Uhm, no. Just because you desperatly want this idea of yours to be true, does not make it any more viable.

I would say that my post about Rand being turned by the 13+13 trick, and then killed by Alivia (and brought back to life by Nynaeve, to actually make all the foreshadowing of her bringing someone back from the dead) is by far more viable than your bodyswapping, and I posted that as a joke.

[Luckers]

The word viable means--more or less--'can occur'.

 

I state the Bodyswap Theory as the only viable explanation for the prophecies for a reason--other answes exist that address individual prophecies, but none other than this that address all the requirements.

 

Take your joke, for example. Being turned by the 13+13 thing could explain why Alivia killing him would be helping him die--yet how does it supply for the prophecy that he is 'dead, yet lives'? That particular prophecy requires him to be both alive and dead at the same time--the wording is concurrent, it is not he 'dies and lives again' as with Mat. He is dead, yet he lives. Both, occuring at the same time.

 

Add to that that the issues of healing a dead person--re-animating their brain functions, reacreating the original electro-chemical state in their brains would require a skill far beyond Nynaeve's.

 

Balefire, eclipses, time travel, imposter Rand's... i've considered them all. None viably address all the requirements stated by prophecy. So yes, i do stand by the claim that this is the only explanation that fits... and i look for another, because despite your claim that I 'desperatly want this idea of [mine] to be true' i actually do not like the bodyswap theory. I have been quite clear all along about that, in threads i know you've read. I think it crass, and will be very glad to be proven wrong.

 

But the fact remains, it is to date the only theory stated that adequately addresses all the requirements set down by the prophecies surrounding Rand's death and life.

[Jethro]

I think Rand will still have a fight after the swap, though my guess is Moridin (or rather Rand's body) gets burned out in the fight

 

Moridin being burnt out! Wow that'd be immense. I still think Moridin will die as a result of them merging though, but this is one of those things where there are loads of pieces to put together. I mean, imagine a burnt-out Moridin in Rands body being the blindfolded beggar. That'd be good.

[Thor]

body swap would be lame for me at least, i can't really see how his harem could take it.  they never really spent enough time to get to the stage of 'love the soul not the body'.

 

just balefire morridin or something and be done with it.  last time they balefired, the weaves were of the same strength, this time rand just need to use an angreal or something and completely overpower morridin.  which he has been doing to most forsaken anyways.

[Luckers]

Moridin being burnt out! Wow that'd be immense. I still think Moridin will die as a result of them merging though, but this is one of those things where there are loads of pieces to put together. I mean, imagine a burnt-out Moridin in Rands body being the blindfolded beggar. That'd be good.

 

Mmm, that was one of the big thoughts for me too. In fact the single thing I actually like about the bodyswap. In my A Memory of Light The Plot thread i seperated things into prologue, part one, part two and epilogue and i definately think this an epilogue moment.

 

I mean think about it. It would be perfect... months after Tarmon Gai'don have Moridin thinking hopelessly about the reality of the world and the defeat of the shadow, of the successes of the Light's hero's and then appears Rand. Moridin tries to escape but he is nearly blind, a beggar... you can show the happiness of the world without the Harry Potter 19 years later crap.

 

body swap would be lame for me at least, i can't really see how his harem could take it.  they never really spent enough time to get to the stage of 'love the soul not the body'.

 

I agree. Only Min comes near that sort of connection. Aviendha and Rand are more based on fighting, and Elayne hardly knows him at all. Could be a greek tragedy is building.

[trakand_01]

There are also theories on a certain line in Rands PoV. It said something like "the Creator is like a gardener. If a plant dies, the gardener moves on and plants something else." Some believe it was a thought of Moridin that came across via the link, the reason being that Rand wondered where that thought came from, doubtful that it was his own, yet when the thought came, Rand noted that Lews Therin seemed to have been listening at the same time. I hope it really was Moridin, because for a while I have wanted communication to become part of the link, for Moridin to taunt Rand telepathically in a buildup to their confrontation. I hope Rand learns who Moridin is before Moridin dies.

 

I'm thinking... considering it's pretty likely that Moridin will be commander in chief (or very close to it) at Tarmon Gaidon, perhaps the fact that Rand can almost read his thoughts, could be a wonderful way of knowing what Moridin's going to do, before he does it? If Rand can keep his mind clear enough, and simply pass on Moridin's thoughts directly to Mat, for all the thinking to go on in Mat's head instead of Rand's...?

[Jethro]

Someone also voiced an interesting thought not too long since although I cant remember who. Someone mentioned they thought Fain would have a role in Tarmon Gaidon much like Gollum did in LotR, which I agree with. The interesting bit was that maybe Fain can sense Moridin as he can sense Rand as a result of the link between them. Imagine that. A three sided battle, Rand vs. Moridin vs. Fain. Could prove interesting, as long as we see Moridin beat a hell of a lot of crap out of Rand before Fain intervenes.

[Thor]

morridin must have some way of detecting fain too else he would have no method of control over fain. 

 

i see it as this: fain tries to sneak attack morridin, morridin lifts fain up with disgust with a weave of air, morridin uses the squeeing weave to start crushing fain, rand (who just got his other hand sliced off, nose flattened, ear deafened, eyes blinded, testes squished, lungs burned) then balefires morridin while morridin was distracted.

 

although i'm not sure if rand knows how to weave balefire without using at least one hand.  so let's let him keep one for practicality sake.

[Ziggdiezan]

If Rand can see Moridin's face can Moridin see rands? like you talk about Moridin taking over rand like lews therin tryed, couldnt rand do the same and take the source from Moridin? Just wondering

[Jethro]

morridin must have some way of detecting fain too else he would have no method of control over fain. 

 

i see it as this: fain tries to sneak attack morridin, morridin lifts fain up with disgust with a weave of air, morridin uses the squeeing weave to start crushing fain, rand (who just got his other hand sliced off, nose flattened, ear deafened, eyes blinded, testes squished, lungs burned) then balefires morridin while morridin was distracted.

 

although i'm not sure if rand knows how to weave balefire without using at least one hand.  so let's let him keep one for practicality sake.

 

I dont think Moridin could control Fain in any way. The reason I would love to see such a fight is because each are from three sides if you will, and each possess a different form of power. I would love to see the True Power used in battle, but I also want to see Fain use his powers against channeling, both True Source and True Power. Each could prove interesting.

[MikeRiley]

Supposing that body switch took place, would Fain find himself sensing Rand's body or his soul? I can see Moridin stuck in Rand's messed up body and getting murdered by Fain who runs off jumping for joy.