Visions

[trakand_01]

Now, i'm not knocking the body-swap theory at all because honestly, none of us know, however I was thinking and I wonder if we've missed a bit of the picture here.

 

When Rand seizes Saidin, he sees Moridin, and vice versa, hence the body swap theory, seeing as Rand is heading swiftly towards crippledom and they seem to have 'connected' themselves when their balefires touched in what was Shadar Logoth.

 

But Moridin isnt the only person Rand can 'see', he sees Mat and Perrin simply by thinking about them... Is it possible that all four are going to be linked somehow?

 

I can see the logic in our three boys 'seeing' each other - who needs walkietalkies at TG when you can physically see what your generals are doing, just by thinking about them? - but what happens if Moridin can also see Mat and Perrin...?

[Mercer]

Entirely possible, I guess, though I can't see why or how it would affect the plot at all (though that doesn't mean anything). Doesn't really seem like enough time left (in the series) to really do anything with it, if that were the case. I also believe the Moridin/Rand link is simply a face thing, while the Mat/Perrin/Rand link is an actual situational vision, as in whatever is around them at the time...so they don't seem to be linked to me, but hey, I'm wrong about a lot of things before I read them. Could be.

[trakand_01]

But surely from Mat's point of view (I'm making a huuuuge assumption that he's going to pretty much head the 'Light' armies), it will be invaluable to be able to see Rand and Perrin, see where they are, are they in position, are they attacking, are they waiting for me, are they being attacked...? I wonder if they could devise a way of communicating with each other... god i'm getting too absorbed in all of this now... I was meaning in terms of red armband means i'm attacking, white armband means i'm resting, green armband means i'm on the move...

[Alderthal]

I think it's more a side effect than an advantage. Yet another sign of TG. After all, the three t'averen are obviously being 'pushed' by the Pattern into their places. And as their threads get closer and closer to the important point, well, some side effects should be expected.

[Jethro]

Rand, Mat and Perrins visions of each other isnt as black as white as seeing them when they think of each other I think. Remember at the Cleansing, when we had PoVs of Mat or Perrin for some reason seeing Rand and Nynaeve sat down? A sign of Rands need of them, yet the vision was like swirling colors IIRC just as the others. It only seems like a hindrance because we havent seen any of them make use of it actively. Mat will use it in AMoL I think.

[FallingBullets]

off topic: I wonder what would happen if you baelfire'ed a tavern (or more)....

[Alderthal]

off topic: I wonder what would happen if you baelfire'ed a tavern (or more)....

 

T'averen would slip just before the BF touches him, falls down, barely escaping imminent doom, and the BF would hit the hidden invisible Forsaken who managed to sneak up behind him.

[Jethro]

Does anyone else think the Moridin-Rand connection might have been brought about by the unlikeliness that Ta'veren inspires? The one time Moridin has been face to face with Rand, Moridin just happens to use balefire which makes Rand do so, and they end up being permanently connected. The reason being the Dragon, the Champion of the Light, needs a new body and the link provides a way.

[mb]

The 3 taveren seeing each other I think might have been something that the Pattern caused.

 

Moridin and Rand "seeing" each other I agree was a side effect from their balefires touching.  Their seeing each other I think is just the face.

 

For Moridin to see (and/or be seen by) Mat or Perrin, I think a similar event of the one between Moridin & Rand would need to happen.

 

[Mr Ares]

off topic: I wonder what would happen if you baelfire'ed a tavern (or more)....

If you balefire someone, you kill them and remove their actions from then to some point in the past, depending on how much you use. If you balefire a ta'veren, the exact same thing happens. The ta'veren dies at some point in the past and all of his or her actions from that point on didn't happen.

[FallingBullets]

I knew that... but being that the tavern are important threads, maybe worse effects would be felt

[Jethro]

Regarding a balefired Ta'veren, I think this is a very interesting question. It wouldn't be like balefiring any normal person I think; a Ta'verens pull on the Pattern is significant to have an Old Tongue name which I cant remember; people in the AoL seemed to be almost as familiar with Ta'veren as with the Power itself. If Moridin used the male Choeden Kal to its fullest to balefire Rand, I find it hard to believe that anything he did since the start of the series would remain. Imagine what that would do to the Pattern; hes been a Ta'veren for over two years, and because he was Ta'veren, two other people became Ta'veren because he would need two more, and those three Ta'verens existence alone has almost prepared the world to fight for its survival. If all that was represented in a Pattern being woven as time goes on, and then those three Ta'veren suddenly had no longer ever existed as Ta'veren, the Pattern would collapse if you ask me. Game over.

[Mr Ares]

Regarding a balefired Ta'veren, I think this is a very interesting question. It wouldn't be like balefiring any normal person I think.

The essential difference would be the degree of disruption to the Pattern. If you undo the actions of someone who has had a massive effect on the Pattern, it will effect massive changes. Removing the actions of someone who has had only a little effect will produce far less dramatic changes. That said, if you remove the last ten minutes of someones life, no matter who they are the chances are that the Pattern can survive. Removing an entire lifetime, decades of a persons life, will have a far more significant impact.

a Ta'verens pull on the Pattern is significant to have an Old Tongue name which I cant remember

Ta'maral'ailen.

[FallingBullets]

Would it be comparable to removing cities of "normal" people?

 

and as someone said, the Pattern might compensate and save the tavern, being that the Ta'veren was made for the Patterns use, unless the use was at an end. (though I guess if the Pattern still wanted the Tavern, it wouldnt allow the BF to be made in the first place...)`

[ROB_88]

what he said. if person X tried to Balefire away a few years of the Ta'veren, it would probably jut end up with a bird crapping on X's head making him miss in surprise, hit a building and the rubble would fall in the sha pe of the old Aes Sedai symbol.

 

or something like that

[Mr Ares]

Would it be comparable to removing cities of "normal" people?

Hard to say, but at a guess, removing a few million people over the same period as one ta'veren would likely cause more disruption to the Pattern.

 

and as someone said, the Pattern might compensate and save the tavern, being that the Ta'veren was made for the Patterns use, unless the use was at an end. (though I guess if the Pattern still wanted the Tavern, it wouldnt allow the BF to be made in the first place...)`

I think you give the Pattern too much credit. It is not sentient. It doesn't run every facet of peoples lives. It tends to be a bit more vague than that. Also, as you originally asked what would happen if a ta'veren was balefired, saying that the balefire would miss doesn't answer the question, as then the ta'veren wouldn't be balefired. Ta'veren aren't immortal. They can be killed.

[Jethro]

what he said. if person X tried to Balefire away a few years of the Ta'veren, it would probably jut end up with a bird crapping on X's head making him miss in surprise, hit a building and the rubble would fall in the sha pe of the old Aes Sedai symbol.

 

or something like that

 

What you describe is dues ex machina all the way, and RJ said that Ta'veren is NOT deus ex machina. It alters chance on an incredible degree, the stronger with the Ta'veren, but there are situations where even a Ta'verens spin on events will do nothing-Rand wouldnt have been captured by Aes Sedai if Ta'veren was that black-and-white, nor would he have turned mad, despite the Taint and his duty. And as it says in some WoT book indexes, a Ta'verens affect can be mimicked with the Power. It says a Ta'verens affect can rarely be duplicated for long and can usually only affect a few square feet or some such, yet we all know those entries are based on what Third Agers believe, not what AoLers knew. So there are ways to counter Ta'veren as well.

 

There would be no point putting Rand in any hard situation if Ta'veren could create anything for him. Remember, the Ta'verens pull works for whats the Pattern wants, not what Rand thinks he needs.

[CUBAREY]

there are situations where even a Ta'verens spin on events will do nothing-Rand wouldnt have been captured by Aes Sedai if Ta'veren was that black-and-white, nor would he have turned mad, despite the Taint and his duty

 

I agree with your general proposition but the particular examples you cite do not necessarily support your general proposition. It could be that the changes that occured because of the situations cited were required by the pattern for Rand to meet his destiny (without being captured by AS no AS would of kneeled to Rand) then being Ta'verens made Rand's capture more probable not less. So cited situations do not answer whether a Ta'verens "luck" prevents him from being killed or otherwise making it impossible to forfill the destiny the Pattern has assigned for him. Again  I agree that being Ta'veren  does not prevent such death or incapacity otherwise the DO would never have a chance of succeeding and all agree there is some chance that he will although it is probably quite remte.