Did Elaida attach herself incorrectly to the line of Andor?

[ceknight78]

Elaida stated that she attached herself to the royal line of Andor because of her viewing that the line will be prominent in the victory over the Dark One. Do you think that she attached herself to the wrong ruler? We know that Rand is Tigraine's son, which would have made him or makes him of the royal line of Andor. Possible?

 

Chris

 

Sorry about all the posts. Again, not sure if these have been brought up previously.

[Kadere]

This actually I believe has been discussed before, though usually as part of other discussions. Ummmmm... I would say it's quite possible she miss read the foretelling and should have been paying attention to Rand and (or) Galad. Though, Gawyn and Elayne have been very important so far, and I would expect them to be important in the Last Battle as well. It was probably ment to mean the ENTIRE bloodline, including ALL of the characters. Her paying attention to (pretty much) only Elayne, is her mistake.

[Guest cwestervelt]

At the time of Elaida's foretelling she wasn't even an Aes Sedai yet and House Trakand was not the Royal Line of Andor. This information is provided in various Elaida PoVs. I can't remember right now if it was all in 1 or if it was in 2 seperate ones. How much time passed between the foretelling and her attaching herself to Morgase isn't really known, but in the interim, Elaida had to have been raised Aes Sedai. She then waited until it was clear that Morgase would take the throne before attaching herself. That, plus the fact that Rand is Tigraine's son implies a strong "Yes" to if Elaida attached herself to the wrong people.

[Nygma]

As 'Velt put so well, it seems Elaida missed the main thrust of that Foretelling.

 

RJ seems to have cast her almost as some perverse kind of Cassandra, constantly Foretelling the truth and doomed to always misinterpret it as a chance for glory for herself.

 

The Foretelling apparently said nothing about attaching herself to the Royal Line; that was her own initiative for the purpose of furthering her own career in hope for self glory. It also seems she never shared that rather important bit of information with anyone else.

 

The idea that she's completely wrong and wasted all that time serving Morgase for nothing makes that interpretation all the more sweet for me.

[Luckers]

This comes up every five minutes. *sigh* Pretty much every member of the royal line of Andor has done something significant throughout the series. The prophecy meant EXACTLY what it said--the royal line of andor was the key to winning the Last Battle. So yes, Elaida was wrong to focus exclusively on Elayne--she couldn't have known about Rand or Luc, but she shouldn't have dismissed Gawyn, Galad and Morgase simply because Elayne could channel.

[Featherless Hawkwing]

Aes Sedai arrogance again, I tell you... with all that's going on these days, maybe they'll go extinct. But actually, I think she was wrong to focus on Elayne at all. Sure, she's done several things of significance, but at the time of the Foretelling, she was not part of the Royal Line of Andor. The Royal Line was Tigraine of House Modrellein, and her descendants. The key to the Last Battle is the Dragon Reborn. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Rand is Tigraine's son, thus part of the Royal Line, even though his descendants and his mother were, are and will be throneless. I think it was idiocy on Elaida's part to attach herself to the person who would BECOME Queen, rather than Tigraine, who was daughter of the Queen at the time of the Foretelling. Although, maybe we should be glad she made that glaring mistake. If she had found Rand first...

 

Let Aes Sedai never come to their senses!

[Kepen heal]

Just wondering if anyone has posted anything about Aes Sedai die out. Dont want to repost.

[Luckers]

Nah, though i dont think it will happen. The time of Aes Sedai supremacy is over, i suspect, but they'll hang around.

[eldar89]

Aes Sedai arrogance again' date=' I tell you... with all that's going on these days, maybe they'll go extinct. But actually, I think she was wrong to focus on Elayne at all. Sure, she's done several things of significance, but at the time of the Foretelling, she was not part of the Royal Line of Andor. The Royal Line was Tigraine of House Modrellein, and her descendants. The key to the Last Battle is the Dragon Reborn. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. Rand is Tigraine's son, thus part of the Royal Line, even though his descendants and his mother were, are and will be throneless. I think it was idiocy on Elaida's part to attach herself to the person who would BECOME Queen, rather than Tigraine, who was daughter of the Queen at the time of the Foretelling. Although, maybe we should be glad she made that glaring mistake. If she had found Rand first...

 

Let Aes Sedai never come to their senses![/quote']

 

it's not as though Foretellings are absolute in nature, they are as tricky to interpret as other forms of prophecy considering that's exactly what they are. It is immaterial that the royal house of Andor was House Modrellein because that is just a political statement that is at best transient in nature. Therefore, it is not necessary for only House Modrellein to be important to the Foretelling, House Trakand can also be important because it is the current royal house and therefore bloodline in Andor, and the Foretelling never said the "current royal house of Andor" or anything specific like that. So flaming people for believing Elayne and Gawyn are important is not wise :) But flaming AS is definitely a good thing to do, let the majority of them burn in hell or SG or wherever sucks the most in Randland.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Except that Foretellings are absolute in nature. They are tricky to interpret (although Gitara Moroso was pretty accurate) but what is Foretold will happen. That is what makes them more reliable than Dreams, which only show a possibility.

 

It is that difficulty in intretation that triggers the "Aes Sedai arrogance" comments. (Actually Accepted arrogance in this case.) When Elaida had the Foretelling, she decided what it meant. She didn't allow for secondary oppinions or alternate possibilities. She saw it as an opportunity for personal glory as she would be the Aes Sedai that enabled House Trakand to save the world.

[Luckers]

No, Aes Sedai arrogance as a result of exclusionism and heritage in the Aes Sedai order, as well as the progresive indoctrination of such instincts post hawkwing is a massive weakness in the aes sedai order.

[Kaznen]

Tigraine's house was Mantear. Modrellein was the last Mantear queen, Rand and Galad's grandma. I think the foretelling meant exactly what it said. Eliada(?)'s foretelling said THE RULING LINEwhen she had it, not THE RULING HOUSE or A RULING HOUSE. Therefor, key is ruling house at the time of the of the foretelling.

 

Remember that the prophecies, when completed, are exactly what they said they were. And over thinking them has caused misinterpretation.

[Luckers]

Actually it said the royal line, which covers both Houses.

[Kaznen]

At the time the royal line, house, gene pool was Mantear. Trankand was just another one of the High Houses.

[Luckers]

A line is a connection between a series of points. It includes all those points, both behind and after. To say the Foretelling was only about Mantear at that specific moment in time would be simplistic to the extreme... and exclude Rand as completely as it does Trakand. Since we have seen that every living member of the royal line, or born of the royal line, have an important role to play, trying to limit it to one point in the line seems overly reductionistic.

[Red States Rule!]

Don't think here that it has anything to do with Elayne. Has everything to do with Rand.

[Luckers]

And your reasoning is... You don't like Elayne?

[Guest cwestervelt]

We're not talking about the family tree of the Royal Houses of Andor. We are talking about a line, or specific branch of that tree. There is a direct line from the first Queen of Andor to Rand al'Thor, and it passes through house Mantear. That pretty much excludes the other Houses for having much significance in the Foretelling.

 

How has Elayne shown herself to be of any real significance to the Last Battle? A united Andor isn't going to swing the difference troop wise when it comes to Trolloc hordes flowing out of the Blight. There were also several other powerful and well respected nobles that would have been readily excepted by all parties concerned if Elayne wouldn't have insisted that she had to be Queen. If she truly cared about uniting Andor without bloodshed, she would have abdicated. As much as Dyelin didn't want to be Queen, she isn't an idiot and would have recognized her obligation to Andor. Even Elayne's rediscovery of how to make Ter'angreal hasn't been of much use. She hasn't been able to teach anyone else with any success nor has she been able to make anything that is widely and readily usable. Now that she is pregnant, she can't even make effective use of the knowledge herself.

 

She may understand political maneuvering, but she doesn't exhibit a great understanding of common sense. She was always rash, and left to herself, she would be the ruin of everything. Now that she has Min's viewings of healthy babies being born, she has gone from merely being rash to inexcusably careless. How many people died, including Vandene and Sareitha, that didn't have to because Elayne was bound and determined that her plan was the only one for capturing the Aes Sedai? How many more are going to die because she refuses to listen to anyone that expresses a concern for her safety?

 

Her PoV's say it all. She know's she is safe, but she never thinks about what it costs to keep her safe.

After all, she was perfectly safe until after her babies were born, and so were her babies. Min had said so.

Knife of Daggers Chapter 33: "Nine out of Ten"

[Luckers]

Andor is the strongest nation in the world. Elayne has also been directly responsible for the fixing of the weather, the rediscovery of ter'angreal making and half a hundred other influential moments. As have Galad and Gawyn in their own way.

 

We arn't talking about the royal houses of Andor. We are talking about the royal line of andor, which includes Elayne, Rand, Gawyn, Galad, Luc and Morgase. If you insist on it only being that which was at the time of the foretelling then Rand isn't included either.

[Minnea]

We do not know exactly when Elaida made the Foretelling, we just know that it was when she was Accepted, and that it was before Morgase's line came to rule:

(TSR, ch 1)

 

The very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted - and had known enough even then to keep to herself - was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle. She had attached herself to Morgase as soon as it was clear Morgase would succeed to the throne...

 

 

According to NS "Elaida had became advisor to the Queen of Andor nearly three years ago". It does not say she became advisor to Morgase, but it can't have been anyone else, can it? I also think she left to be advisor quite fast after becoming AS, and she was Accepted för only 3 years. So Elaida's Foretelling must have happened 3-6 years before Rand was born. Anyone remember exaxtly when the Civil War in Andor started?

 

Of course, it all has to do with how you interpret "the Royal line of Andor". Is it the House that rules at the moment of Foretelling (maybe none as it may have been during the Civil War), the House that ruled last, the House that will rule during the Last Battle - or ALL members of every House that may rule?

[Luckers]

The Royal line is the direct lineage of those who hold or held the throne including their close nuclear family.

[Minnea]

Luckers - I'm not saying that you are wrong - but HOW can you be so sure about it? Have you any "proof"?

 

Foretellings are tricky at best, and you, like Elaida, should not jump into conclusions just because you think you are right. The Foretelling does not say which Royal line or when that line were/are/will be Royal.

[Osangar1282083176]

Elaida did make a fundmental mistake when she attached herself to the royal line of Andor. But it was not the attachment it self. It was due to the fact that the line of succession is female. She mistakenly assumed that she had only to watch the female half of the line. Also she mistakenly assumed that she only had to keep an eye on the current queen and heir and not the collatteral lines. Had she known that Tigraine produced another son she still would not have cared unless she specifically knew it was rand, due to her viewing of him standing astridde the world breaking it anew.

[Luckers]

Even more so she focussed on the one that could channel. But meh.

 

How can i be sure about the definition of a royal line? I claim entymological genuis, thats how!

 

(im joking... but nevertheless thats what it means)

 

Or did you mean my inclusive view? The simple fact that the foretelling says line (indicating more then one individual) suggests to me that the foretelling WASN'T being exact, exactly as you suggest. It was refering to the significance of the entire line--and they have been significant. Every one of them.