Woman Dead and Gone

[Roxinos]

It's just so much simpler when you say "WHOOSH!" and leave it at that.

 

And, no, it's not mean if it's true.

[Mr Ares]

Humor -------------------------------> WHOOSH

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                     mb's head

Fixed.

[Elgee]

Bad RAW

Bad Mr Ares

Bad Roxinos

 

I so love bad.

 

*gigglesnorts*

[kamros]

I lol'd soo much at page 5 of this....

[Mr Ares]

You shouldn't correct other people's posts, Egregio Signor Sopdu. That is a wrong practice.

But it feels so right.

[Elgee]

You shouldn't correct other people's posts, Egregio Signor Sopdu. That is a wrong practice.

 

But it feels so right.

 

And it hurts so good.

[luftstark]

Well... back to the topic

 

ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 543 : He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone..

ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 546 : it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed.

 

Just makin' a little logic out of the actual phrases:

 

"He would almost certainly fail without a woman who as dead and gone..."

 

Almost Certainly. An Almost Certainly view can not be wrong... coz.. it's not certain ... Min has stated that she, sometimes, sees alternatives. It's not a general rule, but she has seen it on Gawyn (or Egwene.. one of them). So she may think that it is not a failed viewing, but just a viewing with no alternative. Therefore the failed viewing can only be other then the "Dead and Gone". Since the Failed viewing is about Moiraine, but the Dead and Gone is other, we can assume it COULD be Moiraine, but it could be someone else.

 

On the someone else... Lanfear shine as the only alternative. Lanfear and LTT/Rand have alot of tension between them. It would make sence that she will have a decisive role at the end, as much as Moiraine.

 

So... RJ may had left us a obvious clue, makin' us all think that Moiraine MUST come back

 

or

 

He may had left a false clue, one that points to Moiraine but does not "seal the deal", intentionally to diverte us from what's going to happen with TWO TA'VEREN.

 

Most ppl assume that Mat/Thom/(Someone - Noal maybe) are going to save Moiraine. And that's it.

 

Well.. what if it does not work that way??? What if something happen? Moiraine may have somethings to tell them, but she may never get back... she may die in the attempt or any other possible events.

 

And again Rand may redeem himself of the "dead women crisis" by seeing Moiraine.. but.. if he realise that Cyndane is Lanfear, killing her my do the same, in a vengeful way. It's a possibility...

 

RJ has over and over stated that miracles are not going to happen... And i think BS questioned why ppl have certany that Moiraine IS comming back.

 

I mean.. i'm not sure about either.. that way.. i'm cool with both... i just hope that if it turns out not to be Moiraine, nobody slam their books against the wall ^^

 

And please.. if u have arguments agains it.. i'm pleased to read and discuss.. if u are a fanatic dude screaming "DUDE, YOU ARE CRAZY, IT'S MOIRAINE. JUST SHUT UP" ... well... i'm sorry for your books!! (it will really reduce their sell value =PP)

[luftstark]

Examining Min's precise grammar is a bad idea, because her thoughts are not well composed.

 

For example, she thinks that, "Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."

 

Taken literally, that means that Moiraine is a viewing, rather than a person.

 

Obviously that is not what Min actually meant.  What she meant, in all likelihood, was that Moiraine was the only person about whom she had visions that had failed.

 

So, Rand's failure, without Moiraine, is extraordinarily likely, but not a certainty.  But that is not the part that identifies Moiraine as the object (not the subject) of the viewing.  Moiraine is identified as the object by Min's assertion that the object of the viewing is a woman who is "dead and gone".  Min couldn't see a viewing about a woman who is "dead and gone", since she only sees the future, and so we know that the "dead and gone" is Min's own fallible interpretation, and not an interpretation that came as part of the viewing.  The only woman who Min thinks is "dead and gone", but who we in fact know is not "dead and gone" is Moiraine Damodred Aes Sedai.

 

She has had multiple viewing about Moiraine, all of which she thinks have failed (including, likely, a future love affair/marriage to Thom).  She doesn't think that a single viewing has failed.  She thinks that her viewings about a single person have failed.

 

Her admittedly shoddy internal grammar makes that a little unclear, but context fills in the holes quite nicely.

 

I Agree with you RAW... Min is not the most precise character, maybe coz she can predict the future =D

 

And you brougth up a good point with "Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed" meaning that all visions about Moiraine failed.

 

But i have to disagree when you say that "The only woman who Min thinks is "dead and gone", but who we in fact know is not "dead and gone" is Moiraine Damodred Aes Sedai.":

 

Min saw Lanfear, Min heard about her demise. Lanfear is as "Dead and Gone" as Moiraine. So Moiraine is not the only woman that Min is certain to be "dead and gone".

 

I'm still not sure about Moiraine... but i know it's a very high probability. It's like 90% change of being Moiraine, 9,9% chance of being Lanfear, and 0,1% of being some other woman.

[Roxinos]

Min saw Lanfear, Min heard about her demise. Lanfear is as "Dead and Gone" as Moiraine. So Moiraine is not the only woman that Min is certain to be "dead and gone".

 

True, but I doubt Min would think of Lanfear so lightly.

[Kadere]

Min didn't have any viewings of Lanfear, so she's obviously not talking about viewings she had of Lanfear. We know she didn't, we're in her PoV in TGH when she met Lanfear. There were no viewings.

[luftstark]

Min didn't have any viewings of Lanfear, so she's obviously not talking about viewings she had of Lanfear. We know she didn't, we're in her PoV in TGH when she met Lanfear. There were no viewings.

Kadere, i believe that this viewing about Rand Failing without a woman dead and gone was not seen in Moiraine or any other woman. It was seen in Rand's aura. (Min said that she wasn't tellin' Rand all of his visions). Therefore Min could have seen any woman in Rand's future (the same way she sees a man in white cloak in Berelain or a Hawk and a Falcon in Perrin).

 

Min saw Lanfear, Min heard about her demise. Lanfear is as "Dead and Gone" as Moiraine. So Moiraine is not the only woman that Min is certain to be "dead and gone".

 

True, but I doubt Min would think of Lanfear so lightly.

 

I don't think she said it lightly:

 

ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 543 : He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone..

 

It's not lightly at all.

The viewing in question is a viewing of RAND.  Not a viewing OF Moiraine, or Lanfear.  A viewing she saw around RAND, which contains the image/information about a woman without whom he will almost certainly fail.  So, Min's PoV in TGH doesn't disqualify Lanfear.

 

But Min's thoughts about Moiraine do, since if the woman seen in vision around Rand were Lanfear, there would be a second person about whom Min thinks that a viewing had "failed", since she thinks that Lanfear is dead.  Since there is only one person about whom Min thinks a viewing has failed, and that person is named as Moiraine, the woman "dead and gone" has to be Moiraine.

 

 

 

RAW, i already said that i agree with that logic. It's undeniable that the only person who had viewings that failed is Moiraine.

 

But, as i said before, it is possible that in Min's opinion the Rand-failing-without-woman-dead-and-gone is not a failed view as Rand can still fail. Even if it's not an Almost Certain  (since that sentence cleary is a interpretation of a viewing, not a instant recognition that would imply certany of it's content) and it's a Certain thing, it did not come to pass yet, therefore it has not failed. And even when it comes to pass, it would only fail if Rand were sucessiful without the "required" woman. Therefore the "moiraine is the only viewing that failed" does not "close the door" to the Woman Dead and Gone being Moiraine.

 

It can still be Moiraine.. but it's not a certany. It could be Lanfear!!!

 

[Roxinos]

It's not lightly at all.

 

The content of the viewing was not a light subject.

 

However, the manner in which she is referring to a person whose name she was probably scared as a child is light considering.

 

Everyone in Randland has a fear of the Chosen. Min included. It colors their thoughts.

 

This is, of course, speculation, but it's speculation on a person's character. *shrug* It was not a point that I meant to belabor or that deserves to be belabored. It was a simple point that you either understand and agree with, or don't and disagree with.

[luftstark]

This is, of course, speculation, but it's speculation on a person's character. *shrug* It was not a point that I meant to belabor or that deserves to be belabored. It was a simple point that you either understand and agree with, or don't and disagree with.

 

Agreed. I Disagree.

[Roxinos]

Well, if you saw an aura around Rand that said that he would need Lanfear or he would "certainly fail," wouldn't the fact that Lanfear is dead be only a secondary description of the person needed in question?

 

I mean, Lanfear is one of the most terrifying names to those people. I would certainly think that "Forsaken" would be a more obvious and poignant description available to Min. I'd think if she saw Lanfear her description of the viewing would have been something along the lines of, "Rand would almost certainly fail without a Forsaken..."

[luftstark]

Well.. you have a point... she does not sound terrified or even afraid of a Forsaken.

 

But this may be because she is dead. A Forsaken is something to be terrified. But a dead forsaken? Min has seen horrible things, battles, Forsakens in the flesh, neverhealing wounds, shadowspawn.... so a dead forsaken, for her, would not represent anything dreadfull.

 

But nevertheless, maybe it's another of those subtle clues that RJ send us... or his misguiding ^^

[Roxinos]

Even when they "knew" that the Forsaken were bound in Shayol Ghul, people would still shudder at mentioning a Chosen's name.

 

A Chosen is a Chosen. It took the Wonder Girls and every other character a while to get over their indoctrinations (being afraid of the Chosen without real reason), and that's mostly after having extensive dealings with them. Perrin doesn't have to worry much about the Chosen because he doesn't deal with them, so he doesn't think of 'em. Mat is still afraid of the Chosen.

 

At this point, it's just one of those things that it's, as RAW says, "Nuh-uh, it could be." Yes, it could be Lanfear, but the chances of that referring to Lanfear are slim on a character basis and slim on the basis of the other knowledge we know concerning Moiraine specifically.

[luftstark]

Thx roxinos.. that's what i aimed for.. i never tried to convice ppl that IT IS LANFEAR... i just wanted ppl to stop havin' absolutly certany it is Moiraine...

 

Coz... well.. it's way more fun not to know!!! hehe

 

but it's prob Moiraine nevertheless...

 

Now let's talk about who killed Asmodean...

 

Graendal? Aviendha? Semirhage? Cadsuane? Me?

[mb]

"dead and gone" I think is not Min's opinion, but what the viewing revealed to Min.

"dead and gone" does not identify.

 

For the rest of the Viewings, known identities are identified by name; not by description.  And in the rest of the Viewings, a description is not used in substitute for a known identity.

 

All Min seems to know about the woman is that she is (or will be or was) dead and gone.

 

It is not thought/belief that fulfills any prophecy, but what actually happens (or will actually happen).

 

[JenniferL]

One of the most interesting phenomena related to the impending release of a new book, and one that I think many people have forgotten, is the sudden appearance of looney theories and their die hard partisans. You know, the people who grab any slight shred of evidence and wave it aloft, shrieking "I am right! I am right! Prove me wrong, I dare you!" A few years ago it was some ridiculous idea about Lanfear actually being the Daughter of the Nine Moons, because she uses a moon as her sigil or some such nonsense. The partisans for this theory were absolutely hysterical on the subject, then melted away when Winters Heart was published and Tuon showed up and was all "Hi. I'm the Daughter of the Nine Moons."

 

I'm not saying that this particular argument will end the same way. Obviously, I don't know anymore than you guys do about this right now. However, if we're arguing exact phrasings from someone not bound by the Three Oaths, maybe we need to take a step back and see if there's other evidence.

 

Personally, I'm putting my money on Liah. I mean, she's dead right? She totally fits the criteria. Prove me wrong!

[Roxinos]

I'm going to cry the next time I see mb post. I just know it. *sigh* I was doing so well not entering any of mb's threads or reading any of his/her posts.

[luftstark]

Personally, I'm putting my money on Liah. I mean, she's dead right? She totally fits the criteria. Prove me wrong!

 

I just laught out loud reading it....

 

but anyway... RAW, you are wrong. And i'll have to Rinse and Repeat my argument again:

 

RAW, i already said that i agree with that logic. It's undeniable that the only person who had viewings that failed is Moiraine.

 

But, as i said before, it is possible that in Min's opinion the Rand-failing-without-woman-dead-and-gone is not a failed view as Rand can still fail. Even if it's not an Almost Certain  (since that sentence cleary is a interpretation of a viewing, not a instant recognition that would imply certany of it's content) and it's a Certain thing, it did not come to pass yet, therefore it has not failed. And even when it comes to pass, it would only fail if Rand were sucessiful without the "required" woman. Therefore the "moiraine is the only viewing that failed" does not "close the door" to the Woman Dead and Gone being Moiraine.

 

It can still be Moiraine.. but it's not a certany. It could be Lanfear!!!

 

 

[Majsju]

 

 

Personally, I'm putting my money on Liah. I mean, she's dead right? She totally fits the criteria. Prove me wrong!

 

Pft, Liah is not dead. That was just a trolloc dressed up as Liah to distract Rand. Prove Me wrong! ;D

[Luckers]

This thread made me snort coke. The beverage kind, but still pretty painful.

[The Doctor]

7 pages... wow, looks like I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue.  Rapunzel, Rapunzel!!!

[mb]

Two more types of candidates came to my mind some time back.

The updated list:

-A woman who already died and afterward returned through some means (even if the means is balefire)

-A currently dead woman that will be resurrected

-A currently alive woman that will die then afterward return through some means

-A woman who is the reborn of some dead woman

-A merge between a dead woman and a living woman

 

looks like I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue.

 

Rapunzel, Rapunzel!!!

Did you know that those comments came from Airplane ("Don't call me Shirley" Edition)?  Just wondering.