One Power strength

[Tyrell]

Well, it seems rather obvious that the relationship between strength and how much you can lift must be determined exponentially, if you've had a look at the text recently.

 

Strong channelers like Rand can hurl whatever the hell they like around with air, while Suian would have been able to lift up Bryne when she was at full strength (and one of the strongest Aes Sedai). Unless you're suggesting that Rand is many many many times Suian's strength to be able to, for instance, pull down half a mountain at the start of TDR?

 

I have absolutely positively no idea where your idea that you need to be three times as strong as someone to shield them comes from, but regardless of the fact that your numbers are guestimates regarding Rand's own current strength, the multiplier his Angreal would give him and the strengths of Lanfear and co. you completely ignore the fact that weaves when made of both Saidar and Saidin are dramatically more effective than when made purely from one half of the source. That fact alone implies that with the three of them linked Lanfear, Rahvin and Graendal would have enough raw power to handle him.

 

A few other things that you probably won't read in your blind zeal, but what the hell.

 

-You do not need much power to kill someone. A tiny razor thin strand of air with as little power as you want, as demonstrated by our friend Cyndane, will get the job done. And I imagine there are other such ways.

 

-One power fights aren't exactly simple, easy affairs. This is a fight not a fencing match. It isn't ah-ha I cut your weave, muhaha I cut yours too stuff. Some weaves don't take long to become active as it were, and others create indirect effects that one can't simply cut. Some are fought at long range, as was Rand's with Sammy and Rahvin. The forsaken don't fight fair. Why get into a weave-cutting contest when you can band together and turn yourselves from four people, the likes of which has already been shown Rand is capable of killing, into one, dramatically stronger one.

 

-It has been said that it is easier to control multiple weaves when linked.

 

-Clearly Cyndane managed to burn Alivia, that's a fact which is in the books, those things you place your faith in, remember?

-Clearly Alivia with her Angreal was stronger than Cyndane; Cyndane states as much in her thoughts.

-Clearly then, someone weaker beat someone stronger. This is something that you seem incapable of dealing with, but it's right there in the books.

 

Merry Christmas chums ;)

[Nightstrike]

Strong channelers like Rand can hurl whatever the hell they like around with air, while Suian would have been able to lift up Bryne when she was at full strength (and one of the strongest Aes Sedai). Unless you're suggesting that Rand is many many many times Suian's strength to be able to, for instance, pull down half a mountain at the start of TDR?

"Leane is not as strong as she was, and neither is Siuan. Most women in Salidar can channel more than either of them, now. Even some of the Accepted can. Not even counting Elayne or Nynaeve. If Siuan and Leane were Healed to half or two thirds of their original strength, most Aes Sedai in Salidar would be as strong, and a good many stronger. Delana is much stronger than Siuan now, whereas before the margin had gone the other way." (LoC, To Heal Again). Lets say Siuan weighs somewhere around 60 kg. Then she used to be able to lift 180 kg. The quote from LoC makes it possible that she could have lost around 60% of her weight - they said she was less than half, but not less than 1/3. The loss of 60% would fit very well with most of strength comparisons mentioned in the books, especially those that I have mentioned earlier in this thread. Anyway, she is less than 1/2 and more than 1/3, so lets go along with her being 40% now, just for sake of argument. Her weaker self could then lift (0.4*180=)72 kg. My guess would be that Gareth Bryne weighs more than 72 kg. So she wouldn't be able to lift him. Nothing exponential about it.

 

And about Rand/Lews Therin pulling down mountains, what explanation have we ever been given in the text that could explain that? We have nothing ever mentioned (in the texts you were wondering if I'd been reading recently) about exponential increases in Gateway areas/lifting things. But we have heard about angreal and sa'angreal. What explanation seems more reasonable? Exponential inrcreases would have been a huge irregularity. Gateways being connected with strength has been remarked upon, but never has that huge irregularity been mentioned. Simple conclusion, if we think that Lews Therin couldn't have performed that by himself, then the only explanation must be that he had an angreal or a sa'angreal. That seems reasonable, he was, after all, the Leader of Aes Sedai at that time - and they probably had no short supply of those kinds of objects.

 

Edit - It says in the text:..."he drew on the True Source deeply, like a man dying of thirst. Quickly he had drawn more of the One Power than he could channel unaided; his skin felt as if it were aflame." It also doesn't say that he "pulled down a mountain". We don't know exactly what weave (if any) that created dragonmount.

 

 

I have absolutely positively no idea where your idea that you need to be three times as strong as someone to shield them comes from, but regardless of the fact that your numbers are guestimates regarding Rand's own current strength, the multiplier his Angreal would give him and the strengths of Lanfear and co.

Are you talking to me? Because I haven't said anything like that. So I don't know what you're talking about.

 

you completely ignore the fact that weaves when made of both Saidar and Saidin are dramatically more effective than when made purely from one half of the source. That fact alone implies that with the three of them linked Lanfear, Rahvin and Graendal would have enough raw power to handle him.

Demandred handled such a circle just fine, and they were even mentioned to be as strong as himself:..."..., as hard as his own spinning would..." (WH, With the Choedan Kal). Damer Flinn is very strong, and he was linked with two average strength Aes Sedai. So if they had been experiencing some kind of "saidin/saidar-strength-multiplier-effect", then Demandred should have gotten shielded/killed. We don't have any other reason to expect any such great multiplier effect, either.

 

You do not need much power to kill someone. A tiny razor thin strand of air with as little power as you want, as demonstrated by our friend Cyndane, will get the job done. And I imagine there are other such ways.

Yeah, in some situations they might not need much power. What's your point?

 

One power fights aren't exactly simple, easy affairs. This is a fight not a fencing match. It isn't ah-ha I cut your weave, muhaha I cut yours too stuff. Some weaves don't take long to become active as it were, and others create indirect effects that one can't simply cut. Some are fought at long range, as was Rand's with Sammy and Rahvin. The forsaken don't fight fair. Why get into a weave-cutting contest when you can band together and turn yourselves from four people, the likes of which has already been shown Rand is capable of killing, into one, dramatically stronger one.

Yes, my point was that they thought it best to be one, dramatically stronger one.

 

It has been said that it is easier to control multiple weaves when linked.

That might be right... But if the Forsaken don't need to link, then they would avoid it. Would you trust a Forsaken? I wouldn't. This means that the REALLY, REALLY thought that they NEEDED to link for some reason. And we all know what that reason is, don't we.

 

Clearly Cyndane managed to burn Alivia, that's a fact which is in the books, those things you place your faith in, remember?

Yes, Cyndane burned Alivia. It is in the books. What am I supposed to remember(I have never said that Cyndane did not burn Alivia)?

 

Clearly Alivia with her Angreal was stronger than Cyndane; Cyndane states as much in her thoughts.

I've never said anything else - on the contrary actually!

 

Clearly then, someone weaker beat someone stronger. This is something that you seem incapable of dealing with, but it's right there in the books.

No, I'm not incapable of dealing with that - I have never said anything else. On the contrary! I have always considered that, so why do you say "you seem incapable"? The fact that Cyndane was capable of dealing with someone stronger than her does not contradict anything I've ever said. And I have never, ever said that Cyndane wasn't capable of dealing with someone stronger than her. If you insist that I must be incapable, then please specify why I would seem "incapable" to you. Because, I assure you, I'm the first to acknowledge that Cyndane was capable to deal with someone stronger than her.

 

 

 

[Dmitri]

I have absolutely positively no idea where your idea that you need to be three times as strong as someone to shield them comes from, but regardless of the fact that your numbers are guestimates regarding Rand's own current strength, the multiplier his Angreal would give him and the strengths of Lanfear and co.

Are you talking to me? Because I haven't said anything like that. So I don't know what you're talking about.

 

Are you kidding? The whole thing with those "3 times stronger" is wholly your idea! Or you don't remember it now?

Oh, and by the way, wouldn't they have to be at least twice his strength to be sure to shield him when he holds saidin? They would be less than that for sure. And yet they planned to link - which means you can't cut the weaves of someone 3 times your own strength. Which in turn means Alivia with *angreal was less than 3 times Cyndane's strength.

 

And, as Mr.Ares said,

You still fail to answer my questions. You admit that it is possible to cut the weaves of someone stronger than you. That's good. But you still insist that there must be a point beyond which the other person is so strong you cannot cut their weaves, which you provide no evidence to support, largely because you made it up, and not only that you place this imaginary line in a wholly arbitrary place, which just so happens, by some miracle, to support you! Hallelujah!

 

So far you haven't explained where you get this "point of uncuttable strength". Do it, better with quotes and not based on your flawed math operating numbers taken out of head. Do it. We are waiting.

[Nightstrike]

I have absolutely positively no idea where your idea that you need to be three times as strong as someone to shield them comes from, but regardless of the fact that your numbers are guestimates regarding Rand's own current strength, the multiplier his Angreal would give him and the strengths of Lanfear and co.

Are you talking to me? Because I haven't said anything like that. So I don't know what you're talking about.

 

Are you kidding? The whole thing with those "3 times stronger" is wholly your idea! Or you don't remember it now?

Have you even read what I've written? I have never, ever said that they need to be three times stronger in order to shield him. I said that, according to Mr Ares, they should be able to cut his weaves if some of them were at least 1/3 his strength with the angreal. I also said:..."Rahvin might not be exactly as strong as Rand, but your theory falls short anyway - because if all of them were (or rather "could have been") less than 1/3 of Rand's strength with the angreal, then their circle would be all too weak.". No matter how weak he is with the angreal or how strong they are linked (the three of them), they would be far below 2 times his strength. So, even if that limit would be, for example, 2.0 times, then they would probably be too weak to shield him when he is holding saidin. The quote that you included mentions "at least 2 times" to shield someone embracing saidin, and with a question mark behind it. But that has nothing to do with them managing to cut his weaves.

 

 

So far you haven't explained where you get this "point of uncuttable strength". Do it, better with quotes and not based on your flawed math operating numbers taken out of head. Do it. We are waiting.

I've already done it several times, but you don't seem to have read what I've written. You should have done that before you demand I show them to you.

 

Here's a little presentation (again) and with as few numbers as possible. Mr Ares says that we don't even know if there's a limit at where it becomes impossible to cut weaves. He also said we could well expect that limit, if it even exists, to be 3.0 the strength. Then we got 2 alternatives, and only 2:

[ a ]If all of them were (or rather "could have been") less than 1/3 of Rand's strength with the angreal, then their circle would be all too weak (weaker than Rand himself, in fact - with the angreal).

[ b ] Some of them are stronger than 1/3 Rand's strength with the angreal, which means they don't need to link.

 

Alternative [ a ] is wrong for several reasons, one of them is that we know that they planned to form a circle. Alternative [ b ] is also wrong, because then they wouldn't have needed to link in the first place.

[Nightstrike]

My theory is that there is nothing in the books to support you.

No, your theory was that Lanfear/Cyndane can cut the weaves of someone 3 times her own strength. I've already proven you wrong. You just haven't realised it yet - and you never will!

This is really not a good way to go about arguing. I tell you what my argument is, and what it is not, and you tell me that I'm wrong!? The arrogance is incredible. Yes, this board has no shortage of arrogant tossers, but this takes the cake. I specifically stated that my argument is not and never was that you can cut the weaves of someone three times your strength, nor did I make any claims as to anyone being three times anyone elses strength. I'm not sure where you get this rubbish, but if you want to claim my argument is something that what I tell you it is, then you better have some damn good evidence for that claim, or your just an arrogant little idiot, whose just decided to piss off the wrong guy. Now, for some strange reason you have taken to copy and pasting my statements, not to refute them, just to present them. I don't know why, but it's useful if anyone (such as yourself) had forgotten what they were. Maybe, if you had done that before this idiotic train wreck of a post that I'm responding to, you wouldn't seem quite so incapable of understanding, let alone addressing, my point. To give some examples of things I said, that you quoted:

 

Even more reminders for Mr Ares:

Mr Ares, reply #172

We do not know whther she was 2.5 times, or 3 times, or 2.8 times her strength, or anything else.

 

Mr Ares, reply #172

You imagine uncuttable weaves to exist, but there is nothing to support that. Their plan to link does nothing to support you. Come back with some evidence, if you wish to carry on. Or admit defeat, or just slink away. Simly carrying on in this way gets you nowhere. The rationale for linking holds true regardless of whether or not weaves can be cut. Unless you can counter that, you have nothing. Except an endless weave cutting stalemate, with each side cutting the others weave but not actually able to do anything.

 

 

 

And a little more to brighten the holidays:

Mr Ares, reply #172

For all your pitiful imaginings, this does not support you.

 

Mr Ares, reply #197

And what makes the whole thing funny is that not only did you set up a strawman, you completely failed to knock it down! You couldn't even knock down the strawman you set up! What's not to love! If nothing else, this could certainly make my Christmas. This has to top everything! Still, managing to both piss me off not just with the same post, but with the same argument has got to have something going for it.

 

Mr Ares, reply #197

Give up. You cannot win, all you can do is salvage some dignity from the wreckage by admitting you've lost.

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Nightstrike, making the occasional bit of text stand out for emphasis is alright, but doing everything like that? Just annoying. Not to mention a clear demonstration of style over substance. Simply saying nothing in really big letters won't make it something, just a big nothing.

No, your theory was that Lanfear/Cyndane can cut the weaves of someone 3 times her own strength. I've already proven you wrong. You just haven't realised it yet - and you never will!

This is really not a good way to go about arguing. I tell you what my argument is, and what it is not, and you tell me that I'm wrong!? The arrogance is incredible. Yes, this board has no shortage of arrogant tossers, but this takes the cake. I specifically stated that my argument is not and never was that you can cut the weaves of someone three times your strength, nor did I make any claims as to anyone being three times anyone elses strength. I'm not sure where you get this rubbish, but if you want to claim my argument is something that what I tell you it is, then you better have some damn good evidence for that claim, or your just an arrogant little idiot, whose just decided to piss off the wrong guy. Now, for some strange reason you have taken to copy and pasting my statements, not to refute them, just to present them. I don't know why, but it's useful if anyone (such as yourself) had forgotten what they were. Maybe, if you had done that before this idiotic train wreck of a post that I'm responding to, you wouldn't seem quite so incapable of understanding, let alone addressing, my point.

 

Please let me refresh your memory.

 

Mr Ares, reply #158

If someone 1/3 the strength can burn the other one's arm to the bone and walk away to tell the tale, then strength truly don't matter at all.

Yes, it does. And you still are unable to provide any evidence to support your position. All you can do now is misrepresent mine. We know Alivia was stronger. We do not know how much stronger.

So you say that simply being able to cut weaves makes strength utterly worthless, and I say it doesn't make strength utterly worthless, and this is supposed to support your drivel? It doesn't say anything to support you. It doesn't say my argument is that you can cut the weaves of someone three times your strength. All that quote says is that even if you can, strength is still not worthless.

 

Mr Ares, reply #148

You speak in favour of imaginary odds. So your point is that because Cyndane is able to cut weaves, there is less difference in strength? That only supports your point if you make further assumptions about the relationship between strength of weave and strength required to cut it.

What I said there is completely true. We know she cut the weaves of someone stronger. We do not know how much stronger. If there is a point beyond which someones weaves are too strong for a given channeler to cut, and if you're right about where the line is drawn, you are still making further assumptions, because these things are not laid out in the text. It doesn't support your claim as to what my argument is, because there I say we do not know  the strength difference.

 

Mr Ares, reply #127

I am more than half right. I am, in fact, entirely right. We have some guidelines, yes. But there is enough flexibility in them for Alivia to be weaker or stronger than Cyndane, or equal to her. She might even be as strong as Lanfear. We cannot say, with certainty. We can't even say most likely this way, or that way. There is not enough evidence to justify Cyndane as stronger, or Alivia as stronger.

So, I say we do not know how strong they are in relation to one another, either with or without the angreal, and this supports me saying that with the angreal she is three times stronger? When I say we don't know, and we don't have the evidence? Your lies are transparent, Nightstrike. We can all see through you. Or maybe you're not lying, maybe you believe what you're saying. Given that you are saying I'm saying directly contradicts what I say I'm saying, and every quote of mine you put forward agrees that what I say I'm saying is exactly whay I'm saying, and what you say I'm saying is not supported by anything I've said, then if you do believe what you say I'm saying, you're incredibly stupid. Stupid or liar? Which are you?

 

Mr Ares, reply #158

So at what point does it become impossible to cut weaves? We know Cyndane cut the weaves of someone stronger than her. You fail to address that.

So I ask at what point cutting weaves becomes impossible, and this supports what you say, about me claiming you can cut the weaves of someone three times your strength? 3 times is you, all you, not me. I say we do not know how strong they are, nor at what point, if any, it is impossible to cut a weave. That is all.

 

Mr Ares, reply #158

The reasons for linking are the same, whether or not weaves can be cut. If it makes no sense with, it makes no sense without. If you do not think much of the plan to link, why does the ability to cut weaves change it? If there is a limit beyond which you cannot cut someones weave, because they are just too strong for you, where does this limit lie What evidence do you have for its existence? What evidence do you have for the difference in strength between Alivia and Cyndane, beside Alivia being stronger in the encounter? If you cannot answer these questions, I'm not sure what point there is in you continuing. That said, I'm not sure what point there is in you continuing anyway. You have already lost, after all. This is just getting you to admit defeat.

Again, a quote of mine that supports my interpretaion of my words over your pathetic bulls**t. You cannot answer the questions I put to you, all you can do is try and claim my argument is something else. And then not even knock down the strawman you created. A truly pathetic display. Some of the weakest argument ever seen on this board. And that's saying something.

 

Mr Ares, reply #169

But you still insist that there must be a point beyond which the other person is so strong you cannot cut their weaves, which you provide no evidence to support, largely because you made it up, and not only that you place this imaginary line in a wholly arbitrary place, which just so happens, by some miracle, to support you! Hallelujah!

Arrogance, yes indeed!

Simple fact. You imagine a line to exist, then place the imaginary line somewhere that supports you. I say, why should we imagine such a line? Why there? I did not say "you can cut the weaves of someone three times your strength", I said "We do not know if there is a point beyond which you cannot cut someones strength". All you would need to disprove that is a single quote, showing that some weaves are too strong. But even then, it may not show where the line is.

 

Your opinion on the matter is worth little, your numbers even less.

It does not matter how strong the angreal is or what strength Rand is (we know Rahvin=Rand and Lanfear is stronger), your made up theory falls short anyway.

We know Rahvin is stronger? We know? Seems like you need to re-read that quote you provided. I did, and I used it to disprove this - Rand thinks Rahvin is perhaps as strong as him. Perhaps.

We know Sammael is as strong as Rand and that, according to you, Lanfear is the second strongest Forsaken.

We know Sammael is as strong as Rand do we? Quotes. And Lanfear being second strongest is according t things like the books, and the author, things like that, so an opinion hardly without grounding.

Lanfear alone should be able to cut all of his weaves, according to you.

In theory, yes she could. There is nothing against that.

We have solid evidence of Sammael's strength in the books, but I forget, you and Luckers don't put any faith whatsoever about what is written in the books. Well, I do.

We do put faith in the books, and quotes from the books have been provided to support much of what we have said. You cannot support your argument here. You cannot even use quotes from the thread to justify your interpretation of my argument. All you can do is not address my arguments, not answer my questions, and repost stuff I have said as if you were making a point. Quoting me says nothing, beyond the eloquence of my own words. Nothing I have said supports your argument about what you say I said, and a post full of quotes from me with no content of your own only weakens your case. Still, some of my posts are wonderful, and I can understand the urge you have to share the beauty of my words with the world. Now, where does the text support you? Oh, of course, it doesn't.

I would hope some others do too, otherwise why would they read them?

Seems like most people in this thread, yourself excluded, are capable of using the text to back up their argument.

Rahvin might not be exactly as strong as Rand, but your theory falls short anyway - because if all of them were (or rather "could have been") less than 1/3 of Rand's strength with the angreal, then their circle would be all too weak. You are disproven, no matter how much you deny it.

To disprove me, you do actually have to disprove me, not just say I have been while keeping the arguments to yourself. Show your working. Now, how am I disproven? Because they can't shield him if they don't link but they might be able to if they do? That supports me. You say nothing to counter that point.

 

Oh, and by the way, the opinions of a man who thought (probably still thinks) that average Aes Sedai is 50% of Lanfear’s strength, or that lifting things/Gateway sizes could be determined exponentially, is not worth much to me. So our opinions seem to be worth little to each other (it works both ways).

When did I say that? Oh, and I fully expect my opinion to be worth little to you. It is rational, after all. Now, despite all that talk, you did not do what you set out to do, namely to show my words as supporting what you claimed they supported, not as what I claimed they supported. Turns out, they say what I say they said, and I think to most people they spoke for themselves. Only you seem to struggle. Or maybe you do understand, and are just trolling. Either way, next time can you try and answer my questions and address my points, not just lie and talk rubbish, and endlessly quote my admittedly beautiful posts.

 

Strong channelers like Rand can hurl whatever the hell they like around with air, while Suian would have been able to lift up Bryne when she was at full strength (and one of the strongest Aes Sedai). Unless you're suggesting that Rand is many many many times Suian's strength to be able to, for instance, pull down half a mountain at the start of TDR?

And about Rand/Lews Therin pulling down mountains, what explanation have we ever been given in the text that could explain that? We have nothing ever mentioned (in the texts you were wondering if I'd been reading recently) about exponential increases in Gateway areas/lifting things. But we have heard about angreal and sa'angreal. What explanation seems more reasonable? Exponential inrcreases would have been a huge irregularity. Gateways being connected with strength has been remarked upon, but never has that huge irregularity been mentioned. Simple conclusion, if we think that Lews Therin couldn't have performed that by himself, then the only explanation must be that he had an angreal or a sa'angreal. That seems reasonable, he was, after all, the Leader of Aes Sedai at that time - and they probably had no short supply of those kinds of objects.

Reading helps, Nightstrike. He said Rand, and the start of TDR. We do not see Lews Therin in TDR, and Rand only gets a sa'angreal at the very end of that book, Callandor. Rand was never leader of the Aes Sedai. Dragonmount is not the example Tyrell used, so you didn't address his point.

 

Demandred handled such a circle just fine, and they were even mentioned to be as strong as himself

Handled? He left rather than face them.

So if they had been experiencing some kind of "saidin/saidar-strength-multiplier-effect", then Demandred should have gotten shielded/killed.

Aside from your rubbish at the end, there being no certainty about his death or stilling, no mention was made of a super strength multiplier effect, that is also your invention. However, how many times are we told that the greates deeds of the Age of Legends were accompanied by men and women working together?

 

Yes, my point was that they thought it best to be one, dramatically stronger one.

Yes, as was mine. But you claim it is nonsense to be dramtically stronger channeler, with the possibility of shielding someone, just because that person might cut your weaves, or you might not be able to cut his, as if cutting weaves was the be all and end all of an OP fight and nothing else mattered. Despite your claims, this has already been shown up as false, so drop it. Shielding alone makes it worthwhile to link, because they cannot do it without a link.

 

I have absolutely positively no idea where your idea that you need to be three times as strong as someone to shield them comes from, but regardless of the fact that your numbers are guestimates regarding Rand's own current strength, the multiplier his Angreal would give him and the strengths of Lanfear and co.

Are you talking to me? Because I haven't said anything like that. So I don't know what you're talking about.

Are you kidding? The whole thing with those "3 times stronger" is wholly your idea! Or you don't remember it now?

Have you even read what I've written?

More importantly, have you read anything anyone else has written? Our arguments won't go away. Either address them or give up.

I have never, ever said that they need to be three times stronger in order to shield him. I said that, according to Mr Ares,

According to me? No, according to you. This is your theory. All you do is imagine that at some point a weave is uncuttable. You then imagine where this point must be.

they should be able to cut his weaves if some of them were at least 1/3 his strength with the angreal.

As we do not know how strong any of them are, nor how strong the angreal is, why 1/3? Not to mention we have no reason to believe it impossible.

So, even if that limit would be, for example, 2.0 times, then they would probably be too weak to shield him when he is holding saidin.

But they have chance if they link (maybe he forgets the angreal...), none if they don't.

But that has nothing to do with them managing to cut his weaves.

Cutting weaves is an irrelevance.

 

So far you haven't explained where you get this "point of uncuttable strength". Do it, better with quotes and not based on your flawed math operating numbers taken out of head. Do it. We are waiting.

I've already done it several times, but you don't seem to have read what I've written. You should have done that before you demand I show them to you.

You have not shown it to anyone. There is no evidence for a point of uncuttable strength. Nor any for where this imaginary line exists.

 

Here's a little presentation (again) and with as few numbers as possible. Mr Ares says that we don't even know if there's a limit at where it becomes impossible to cut weaves.

This is correct. There is no evidence. We all get that.

He also said we could well expect that limit, if it even exists, to be 3.0 the strength.

Not quite. If we do not know if it even exists, then why should we expect it to exist at 3 times, as opposed to 1.5 times, or 10 times? If we have to reason to even believe it exists, we have even less to make guesses about where. The rest of what you say is worthless, tedious, meaningless, irrelevant, pointless, tripe. There are far too many unknown variables. Cutting weaves is a non-factor in the reasons to link. If they don't they, they cannot shield him. If they do, they might be able to, or even if they can't they can beat him another way. He has already shown to them he can beat them if they come one by one, so the idea is not to be individuals, but several Chosen united, something he has not faced. Even looking at the Cleansing, one of the reasons for their defeat was their failure to work together. Had they been willing to link they could have overcome any of the defences put in place and won the day.

 

My theory is that there is nothing in the books to support you.

No, your theory was that Lanfear/Cyndane can cut the weaves of someone 3 times her own strength. I've already proven you wrong. You just haven't realised it yet - and you never will!

This is really not a good way to go about arguing. I tell you what my argument is, and what it is not, and you tell me that I'm wrong!? The arrogance is incredible. Yes, this board has no shortage of arrogant tossers, but this takes the cake. I specifically stated that my argument is not and never was that you can cut the weaves of someone three times your strength, nor did I make any claims as to anyone being three times anyone elses strength. I'm not sure where you get this rubbish, but if you want to claim my argument is something that what I tell you it is, then you better have some damn good evidence for that claim, or your just an arrogant little idiot, whose just decided to piss off the wrong guy. Now, for some strange reason you have taken to copy and pasting my statements, not to refute them, just to present them. I don't know why, but it's useful if anyone (such as yourself) had forgotten what they were. Maybe, if you had done that before this idiotic train wreck of a post that I'm responding to, you wouldn't seem quite so incapable of understanding, let alone addressing, my point. To give some examples of things I said, that you quoted:

 

Even more reminders for Mr Ares:

Mr Ares, reply #172

We do not know whther she was 2.5 times, or 3 times, or 2.8 times her strength, or anything else.

 

Mr Ares, reply #172

You imagine uncuttable weaves to exist, but there is nothing to support that. Their plan to link does nothing to support you. Come back with some evidence, if you wish to carry on. Or admit defeat, or just slink away. Simly carrying on in this way gets you nowhere. The rationale for linking holds true regardless of whether or not weaves can be cut. Unless you can counter that, you have nothing. Except an endless weave cutting stalemate, with each side cutting the others weave but not actually able to do anything.

What are these supposed to be reminding me? They say nothing to support you, Nightstrike the idiotic liar. Take the first quote. You highlight the "3 times" bit as if it wre a point in your favour, when the essence of the quote was that we don't know the strength difference. We don't know is the important part. She could be 3 times the strength, but I wasn't arguing she was, and any attempt to claim I was is doomed to failure. You'll probably end up reposting this post, with 3 times made into the largest letters you can, because apparently you making "3 times" into really, really, really big letters makes that my argument. It won't, my argument will remain exactly what I said it was, that we do not know. As to the second of those quotes, it again says nothing to support whatever you imagine your point to be. It says that your point about 1/3 strength is meaningless. That they can cut his weaves without is not a reason against a link. Why do you repost these things? It doesn't get you anywhere, all it does is make you look even more stupid.

 

And a little more to brighten the holidays:

Mr Ares, reply #172

For all your pitiful imaginings, this does not support you.

Entirely correct, it doesn't. If you disagree, show how it supports you. Apparently, only you can see it. That means you need to do a better job of explaining, or drop it.

 

Mr Ares, reply #197

And what makes the whole thing funny is that not only did you set up a strawman, you completely failed to knock it down! You couldn't even knock down the strawman you set up! What's not to love! If nothing else, this could certainly make my Christmas. This has to top everything! Still, managing to both piss me off not just with the same post, but with the same argument has got to have something going for it.

Turns out it wasn't the only thing, my christmas was great and would have been even without Nightstrike putting forward the most pathetic attmept at a strawman in Dragonmount history, by virtue of him not being able to knock it down.

 

Mr Ares, reply #197

Give up. You cannot win, all you can do is salvage some dignity from the wreckage by admitting you've lost.

Decided against that bit of advice, eh? Never mind, you'll give up eventually. Now or thirty pages time, or anywhere in between. Your choice. You will still not budge me from my position unless you actually find some evidence.

 

Mr Ares

is

right

See' date=' you agree with me! And you'd agree even more if I used big letters!!! And lots of excalmation marks!!!!! Now, are you going to drop the lies, the strawmen, the endless requoting of my posts without adding anything, the resizing, except for a little bit of emphasis (it really does work best in moderation), the lies, the refusal to address my (or other peoples) questions and arguments, the lies, the fact that your agument has been shredded, your claims to have some proof which no-one else acknowledges as such, all the other rubbish you post, and the lies, and just get back to putting forward a decent, comprehensible, argument?

[Nightstrike]

Given that you are saying I'm saying directly contradicts what I say I'm saying, and every quote of mine you put forward agrees that what I say I'm saying is exactly whay I'm saying, and what you say I'm saying is not supported by anything I've said, then if you do believe what you say I'm saying, you're incredibly stupid. Stupid or liar? Which are you?

No lies. Your statements.

 

Seems like most people in this thread, yourself excluded, are capable of using the text to back up their argument.

I have. Have you? How about that thing about lifting things being determined exponentially by OP strength. Any quotes on that? Nah, didn't think so. Sorry, had to ask since you brought it up.

 

Oh, and by the way, the opinions of a man who thought (probably still thinks) that average Aes Sedai is 50% of Lanfear’s strength, or that lifting things/Gateway sizes could be determined exponentially, is not worth much to me. So our opinions seem to be worth little to each other (it works both ways).

When did I say that? Oh, and I fully expect my opinion to be worth little to you. It is rational, after all.

Mr Ares, the ”Setelle Anan” thread during reply #17

Does ability to lift with the Power increase in a linear fashion alongside increase in strength? We have nothing to say whether or not the amount lost is a fixed amount, fixed percentage or random, or something else. So Cyndane cannot be ruled out on those grounds.

That thing about 50% of Lanfear's strength, did you ever have a different opinion than Luckers? Because I never saw you protest about those statements of his (which he presented in many posts during which time you posted also), even though you've protested about almost every other statement in this thread - you're claiming "we can't know". Did you think he could know about those things? Well, he did not.

 

Now, despite all that talk, you did not do what you set out to do, namely to show my words as supporting what you claimed they supported, not as what I claimed they supported. Turns out, they say what I say they said, and I think to most people they spoke for themselves. Only you seem to struggle. Or maybe you do understand, and are just trolling. Either way, next time can you try and answer my questions and address my points, not just lie and talk rubbish, and endlessly quote my admittedly beautiful posts.

And YOU keep talking about talking rubbish.

 

 

Cutting weaves is an irrelevance.

More rubbish.

 

[Thor]

This is getting really far now from the original discussion so I'll just cut in.

 

It is obvious there is a point of uncuttable strength, if not, then the forsaken could have just cut the conduit when Rand was cleansing Saidin, the backlack would have instantly killed Rand and probably half the world as well.

[Majsju]

Manners, kids. If you can not post in a civilised way, try to resist the urge to post at all. Or, I can just lock the thread, and you can hurl insults at eachother in a pm, since you do not seem very interested in the actual topic.

 

 

[Dmitri]

It is obvious there is a point of uncuttable strength, if not, then the forsaken could have just cut the conduit when Rand was cleansing Saidin, the backlack would have instantly killed Rand and probably half the world as well.

 

I won't agree here. We don't know if the FS would try to cut Rand's weave or not - they simply had no chance to do it while trying to stay alive. If we saw them try and fail, we could say it was impossible.

We don't know for sure.  :-\

[Mr Ares]

No lies. Your statements.

Misinterpreted by you. They didn't say what you said they did.

 

How about that thing about lifting things being determined exponentially by OP strength. Any quotes on that? Nah, didn't think so. Sorry, had to ask since you brought it up.

 

Mr Ares, the ”Setelle Anan” thread during reply #17

Does ability to lift with the Power increase in a linear fashion alongside increase in strength? We have nothing to say whether or not the amount lost is a fixed amount, fixed percentage or random, or something else. So Cyndane cannot be ruled out on those grounds.

Where did I say lifting is determined exponentially? I asked if it was linear or not. Can you answer that question or not? Do you have quotes to back up your point?

That thing about 50% of Lanfear's strength, did you ever have a different opinion than Luckers? Because I never saw you protest about those statements of his (which he presented in many posts during which time you posted also), even though you've protested about almost every other statement in this thread - you're claiming "we can't know". Did you think he could know about those things? Well, he did not.

If you want Luckers to support his theories, ask him. Whether or not I agree with his arguments is besides the point. You can hardly say I supported it if never gave any support to it.

 

Cutting weaves is an irrelevance.

More rubbish.

Yet rubbish you have been unable to argue against.

 

Will you address my argument now? Will you answer my questions now?

 

It is obvious there is a point of uncuttable strength, if not, then the forsaken could have just cut the conduit when Rand was cleansing Saidin, the backlash would have instantly killed Rand and probably half the world as well.

Demandred planned something along those lines. He planned to undo what Rand was doing. As for why none of them did so, they weren't given much of a chance. And even if there is a point of uncuttable strength, we are no nearer to determining where it is. So we do not know how much stronger Alivia was in her encounter with Cyndane, nor do we know how much strength she gained from the angreal. Therefore, we are left with the same conclusion I have been giving for pages now - we do not know how strong an unaided Alivia is in relation to Cyndane, whether she is stronger, weaker, or equal.

 

I won't agree here. We don't know if the FS would try to cut Rand's weave or not - they simply had no chance to do it while trying to stay alive. If we saw them try and fail, we could say it was impossible.

We don't know for sure.  :-\

Of course, if they knew such a thing was impossible to start with, they wouldn't even try. But we know Demandred had something in mind to undo what Rand was doing, if not cutting then something similar in effect. He specifically mentions Rand's death or severing as a possible side effect of him undoing what Rand was doing, so we know his plan was not killing Rand directly. That said, if they didn't know about this point of uncuttable strength, then Nightstrike's argument about them not needing to link doesn't work. Because, as far as they know, it can still be done - therefore it should be doable by the unlinked Chosen against Rand, therefore this doesn't work as an argument against linking because even though they believed it possible they still were willing to link.

[Nightstrike]

It is obvious there is a point of uncuttable strength, if not, then the forsaken could have just cut the conduit when Rand was cleansing Saidin, the backlash would have instantly killed Rand and probably half the world as well.

Demandred planned something along those lines. He planned to undo what Rand was doing. As for why none of them did so, they weren't given much of a chance. And even if there is a point of uncuttable strength, we are no nearer to determining where it is. So we do not know how much stronger Alivia was in her encounter with Cyndane, nor do we know how much strength she gained from the angreal. Therefore, we are left with the same conclusion I have been giving for pages now - we do not know how strong an unaided Alivia is in relation to Cyndane, whether she is stronger, weaker, or equal.

 

I won't agree here. We don't know if the FS would try to cut Rand's weave or not - they simply had no chance to do it while trying to stay alive. If we saw them try and fail, we could say it was impossible.

We don't know for sure.  :-\

Of course, if they knew such a thing was impossible to start with, they wouldn't even try. But we know Demandred had something in mind to undo what Rand was doing, if not cutting then something similar in effect. He specifically mentions Rand's death or severing as a possible side effect of him undoing what Rand was doing, so we know his plan was not killing Rand directly. That said, if they didn't know about this point of uncuttable strength, then Nightstrike's argument about them not needing to link doesn't work. Because, as far as they know, it can still be done - therefore it should be doable by the unlinked Chosen against Rand, therefore this doesn't work as an argument against linking because even though they believed it possible they still were willing to link.

Obviously, if he could have cut the flow of Rand/Nynaeve, then he had the chance while he was in Shadar Logoth. But he did not. Undo=using Balefire. He obviously planned to use it on Nynaeve (she was "at the source"), since he reconned Rand would stand any chance of surviving. Using balefire at someone in a link would likely burn the other ones out (or kill them), since the things that person had done/contributed would be erased. We have no reason to expect that someone weaker can burn a stronger one out by cutting their flows (it has never happened or even been suggested), but we have every reason to expect that they can't - Alivia wasn't burned out when Cyndane cut her weaves. So, that section has nothing to do with cutting any weaves.

 

 

 

 

 

[Thor]

Demandred planned something along those lines. He planned to undo what Rand was doing. As for why none of them did so, they weren't given much of a chance. And even if there is a point of uncuttable strength, we are no nearer to determining where it is. So we do not know how much stronger Alivia was in her encounter with Cyndane, nor do we know how much strength she gained from the angreal. Therefore, we are left with the same conclusion I have been giving for pages now - we do not know how strong an unaided Alivia is in relation to Cyndane, whether she is stronger, weaker, or equal.

 

as usual you have no room in your mind to think how things can be and should be done.  Any one of them could have just raised their hand and shot a balefire right at the saidar conduit, if there is no limit to the strength of weave they could cut.

 

It is obviously that they couldn't do it.  Don't come here talking about distance please when we know that the thing was absolutely humongous.

 

Also don't come here saying that the forsaken were too far away for that.  Do you truly believe that all the parties could have been so lucky and found the forsakens just by randomly patrolling around if the area to cover was so big that the forsaken cannot reach the conduit with a balefire?  I don't think so.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, the good guys had their "encircling defenses", which clearly indicates that it was Rand/Nynaeve they were protecting - and not their flow. Demandred, and the other Forsaken also struggled to get to Rand/Nynaeve. Not closer to the flow. We know Osan'gar came close enough to begin weaving balefire. Then Elza & company vaporized him.

[Mr Ares]

Obviously, if he could have cut the flow of Rand/Nynaeve, then he had the chance while he was in Shadar Logoth.

You say that with such certainty, but the evidence does not support it. Whatever he planned to do, he was unable to do. What he planned to do was similar in effect to cutting weaves. Now, what variables would be at work? He was attacked by Callandor not long after arriving. If you saw that coming at you, how long would you stay around? What about how long it would take to weave, and then cut Rand's flow? While attacks were incoming, remember.

Undo=using Balefire.

Utterly unsupported.

Using balefire at someone in a link would likely burn the other ones out (or kill them), since the things that person had done/contributed would be erased.

Why? If balefire were used as you suggest, it would undo Nynaeve's contributions to the link as far back as that strength of balefire dictates. If she were burnt back before the link was made, she would not have made it. Rand would have used someone else. If she died at a later point, saidar would vanish, as would the link, leaving Rand holding saidin, but not doing anything with it. And Rand with that much strength would be dangerous to the Chosen, reason enough for them not to do as you suggest. But why would it burn him out?

We have no reason to expect that someone weaker can burn a stronger one out by cutting their flows (it has never happened or even been suggested)

And when has it happened or been suggested that by balefiring one part of a link, you can kill or burn out the others? Given that actions are undone, I'm not sure how that would work. Any weaving done during the period erased by the balefire wouldn't have happened. If that included making the link, then the link would never have been made.

Alivia wasn't burned out when Cyndane cut her weaves.

This is not quite the same. Demandred thought what he planned might kill or sever Rand, but wasn't sure. Given his experience of balefire during the War, he should have some idea of what would happen. But flows of this magnitude have never been cut before. Who knows what the effect might be? Cut flows snap back to the weaver. Alivia's cut flows were a lot smaller than the flows from the Choedan Kal. Therefore, in this case there was a lot less to snap back. Now, we do not know for sure what Demandred had planned, but whatever it was appears to have some similarities, given what little we know of his plan, to cutting weaves. We therefore cannot rule it out. We have no reason to. We have no reason to believe that any strength is beyond the ability to cut, but even if we suppose it is, we do not know where the limits lie. Therefore your theory still lacks any supporting evidence, and we still cannot place Alivia anywhere in regards to Cyndane.

 

as usual you have no room in your mind to think how things can be and should be done.

Can and should? You mean, how you think things can and should be done. Frankly, I do not much care, I care about the books, and what they suggest can and should be done.

Any one of them could have just raised their hand and shot a balefire right at the saidar conduit, if there is no limit to the strength of weave they could cut.

Assuming, of course, that it is possible to balefire a weave. The only instance in the books that I can recall of something similar is the incident in SL which resulted in Rand and Moridin being linked. We do not know what caused the link, whether the interaction of two streams of balefire, or of OP and TP, or both. We do not know what the result would be of what you suggest. It might not do anything. Therefore this cannot be considered an example of what "can" or "should" be done, only what you think. Provide evidence.

 

It is obviously that they couldn't do it. Don't come here talking about distance please when we know that the thing was absolutely humongous.

Oh, it is obvious, is it? "Obvious". To who? What is obvious to one person is not necessarily obvious to anyone else, nor is what is obvious necessarily a matter of fact. And we do not know all the variables involved in cutting weaves. Distance away could be a major factor, as could the size of the weave resulting in it taking longer to cut. In which case, this thing being "absolutely humongous" is actually a reason against trying to cut it - not necessarily indicating that it would be impossible, merely that it would take time, time that they didn't have, given that they were under attack. Furthermore, given that the Choedan Kal are far stronger than anything else, differences between the flows produced by them and the flows produced by anything else are not necessarily helpful in establishing Nightstrike's original point of where Cyndane sits in relation to an unaided Alivia. Even after all this time, there is still no more to suggest Cyndane is stronger than she is weaker or they are equal. This argument has done nothing, and you still have not a jot of evidence to support you.

 

Yeah, the good guys had their "encircling defenses", which clearly indicates that it was Rand/Nynaeve they were protecting - and not their flow.

So what? We know there are gaps in Aes Sedai knowledge, so I put to you again a question you have been unable to answer since the last time I put it to you - do the Aes Sedai know how to cut flows? Did they know that the flow was a potential weak point?

Demandred, and the other Forsaken also struggled to get to Rand/Nynaeve. Not closer to the flow. We know Osan'gar came close enough to begin weaving balefire. Then Elza & company vaporized him.

So what? We do not know what factors might be involved of slicing such a flow, such as distance from the flow or the weaver, how long it would take. The Chosen are better placed to answer these questions, of course, but they had a variety of approaches. Callandor was blowing up things all over, so they had to keep running. This whole section has nothing to rule out cutting flows of any strength being possible, therefore it does nothing to further your case. If there is no evidence to suggest an impossibilty of cutting even the largest flows of the Power the world has ever seen, then your theory cannot be considered anything other than rubbish.

[Nightstrike]

There's that word again - Mr Ares is throwing "rubbish" around again. Look, I like a stimulating argument, but this really isn't one. It's more like debating with someone who thinks the world is flat and the sun moves around it. I have heard people say those things, but I don't want to argue with them. And Mr Ares does not seem to want a constructive argument. He said, to someone else (in another thread), that he is "old enough to be our grandfather", but I somehow doubt that very much.

 

Can anyone else than Mr Ares be so kind as to throw in something a little more constructive, otherwise this thread is dead, dead, dead. To me, anyway. Maybe better if Majsju really locks it, at least until AMoL. I wouldn't mind that. And I started the thing, expecting something a little better than this.

 

[General Cauthon]

Can anyone else than Mr Ares be so kind as to throw in something a little more constructive, otherwise this thread is dead, dead, dead.

 

I can give you my little theory about cutting weaves. I don't think the strenght of the channeler matters at all, but rather that the amount of Power used to construct the weave determines whether or not you can cut it. And I believe that the point at which you cannot cut it is when the amount of Power used to form the weave is more then you can handle yourself.

 

This would explain how neither Nynaeve nor Moghedien could cut the others weave. Nynaeve put all her strenght behind the shield, and Moghedien could not cut it since she was equal to Nynaeve in strenght.

 

In all the examples from the books where we have seen a weave being cut, I cannot remember anyone where the strenght of the "weave" was greater then that of the person who cut it.

 

And a weave of both saidar and saidin is stronger then either one separatetly. The only proof I have of this is that that was how they did it in the AoL. They knew. Which is why Lanfear, Graendal, Rahvin and Sammael planned to use a mixed circle against him. If Lanfear just wanted any circle, she could have just brought in 10 Black Ajah.

 

 

Now, I expect that many disagree, but I would apreciate it if you can prove me wrong with a quote from the books.

[Thor]

10 BA would easily overwhelm Rand, with or without angreal.  From Semirhage's entourage, we can assume that she felt confident to overcome Rand with only 2 channelers helping her, without even being linked.

 

And about the conduit being enormous?  It is enormous, I don't need to quote anything about it.  For a whole sea of Saidin to go through it enough to cover the entire Shadar Logoth and more, there is no way that it is small.

[Thor]

10 BA would easily overwhelm Rand, with or without angreal.  From Semirhage's entourage, we can assume that she felt confident to overcome Rand with only 2 channelers helping her, without even being linked.

 

And about the conduit being enormous?  It is enormous, I don't need to quote anything about it.  For a whole sea of Saidin to go through it enough that just the surface (taint part) is enough to cover the entire Shadar Logoth and more, there is no way that it is small.

[Charlz Fel]

A quote from the scene of Cyndane vs. Alivia, Cyndanes PoV:

 

"Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock.  She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!  That was impossible; no woman could be stronger.  She must have an angreal, too."

 

Has anyone discussed the meaning of the word "too" here?  I have taken it too mean, contrary to the standard interpretation in this thread, that Cyndane believes Alivia is stronger than Lanfear was and also has an angreal.  The only other interpretation I can think of is that Cyndane also has an angreal, which seems unlikely since it is not otherwise mentioned in her PoV.

 

An additional point--is there any firm evidence that Alivia knows how to weave a shield?  If she does not, then it is more reasonable that Cyndane could survive in spite of a massive strength discrepency, especially if, for instance, the "uncuttable strength" applies only to certain weaves (which almost certainly include shields, based on the Nyneave/Moghedien duel) that Alivia does not know.  In the Rand/Lanfear conflict (just before Moiraine's death), Rand keeps slicing Lanfear's shields (as I recall), but this could mean that Lanfear withdraws the weave as soon as she feels it being sliced to avoid getting into a strength-only duel.  Since Lanfear has an angreal in this scene, she would either believe herself to be toying with Rand or would suspect (correctly) that he has an angreal also.

[Mr Ares]

Has anyone discussed the meaning of the word "too" here?

It means she has an angreal as well as the weave dissolving ter'angreal.

An additional point--is there any firm evidence that Alivia knows how to weave a shield?

No.

 

And about the conduit being enormous? It is enormous' date=' I don't need to quote anything about it. For a whole sea of Saidin to go through it enough to cover the entire Shadar Logoth and more, there is no way that it is small.[/quote']No-one is saying otherwise. But so what?

 

There's that word again - Mr Ares is throwing "rubbish" around again. Look' date=' I like a stimulating argument, but this really isn't one. It's more like debating with someone who thinks the world is flat and the sun moves around it. I have heard people say those things, but I don't want to argue with them.[/quote']Because you agree with them. You appear to be under a misapprehension about which side of the metaphorical "Earth is flat/no it isn't" argument you're on. You are the guy arguing for a position which is not supported by the evidence, the flat earther. So this is not a stimulating argument, it is you saying you're right but being utterly incapable of supporting your claims whenever you're asked to.

 

This thread is dead, dead, dead.

This thread has been dead a long time, boy. I pointed out that you'd lost the argument a while back, but you kept going. If you're ready to give up now (again), then go for it.

And I started the thing, expecting something a little better than this.

Like what? Everyone mindlessly agreeing with your unsubstantiated opinions being stated as facts with you unable to provide any supporting evidence?

[Nightstrike]

Mr Ares, are you working in showbusiness? Because I think you're hilarious.

[Thor]

Rand never did slice Lanfear's shields.  He blocked them.

[Gentled Ben]

Rand never did slice Lanfear's shields.  He blocked them.

You are incorrect. He first sliced the weave she was using against Egwene and Aviendha. She responded with a weave that made him feel as if his heart was about to explode, while white-hot nails were being driven into his brain. He sliced that weave too, then he began weaving clubs of air with which to strike and stun her. She sliced the first one that he wove, and he began weaving them rapidly, one right after another, during which time she danced backwards from him, blocking them until she bumped into the wagon, grasped the bracelet angreal and turned the tide against him. She blocked his weaves, he did not block hers.Then as she wove shield after shield at him using the bracelet angreal it says, and I quote,

With Spirit and Fire and Earth he cut at the knife blade; he knew where to find it; he knew where his link was,could feel that first nick. Her attempted shield vanished, reappeared, returned as fast as he could cut it, but always with that momentary ebbing of saidin, moments when it almost failed, leaving his counterstroke barely enough to foil her attack.

TFoH, Choices, page 891 in my paperback edition (I have no idea where you guys find these quotes, as I assume I am the only one who types them straight from the book).

So, you are right about some blocking going on, but it was her blocking his clubs of Air, not him blocking her shields.

 

May I say that having read through this abortion of a thread with the morbid fascination with which one views a bloody car accident, I have yet to see Nightstrike prove his point or disprove Luckers (who had sense enough to back away from the bad smell early on), Cauthon, Dmitri, and numerous others who have posted, much less Mr Ares, who has pwned him like a noob in a bad online video game from the very beginning? Dude, your power scale was shot down early by Luckers, and every non-argument that you've come up with since, barring perhaps the long argument about variance and skew in statistical equations, which I don't get at all, as I have no understanding whatsoever of statistics and thus, cannot say whether you are right or not, has been systematically taken apart by several people who have used the books as the basis for their arguments. Your chart didn't work, and neither did any of the other arguments that you presented in the following 16 pages or so after your chart was burned and the ashes scattered. Give over. Please.

[Thor]

You are incorrect. He first sliced the weave she was using against Egwene and Aviendha. She responded with a weave that made him feel as if his heart was about to explode, while white-hot nails were being driven into his brain. He sliced that weave too, then he began weaving clubs of air with which to strike and stun her. She sliced the first one that he wove, and he began weaving them rapidly, one right after another, during which time she danced backwards from him, blocking them until she bumped into the wagon, grasped the bracelet angreal and turned the tide against him. She blocked his weaves, he did not block hers.Then as she wove shield after shield at him using the bracelet angreal it says, and I quote,

 

No you are incorrect.  Rand never sliced Lanfear's shields.  Ever.  The only weave he sliced were Lanfear's weaves on Aviendha and Egwene.  Rand could barely even block her shields at all because they were so fast.