One Power strength

[Jethro]

I have a question which may or may not help.

 

Picture two random channeler women stood next to each other-for a good couple lets pick Lanfear and Moiraine. Lanfear has an angreal, Moiraine doesnt. neither women are hiding the ability to channel, neither are masking their strength, neither are actually channeling or even holding the Source.

 

So, both women can sense the ability to channel to their fullest; all is good. If Lanfear wasnt channeling or even holding the Source, would Moiraine sense Lanfears unaided strength, or would she sense the strength of the angreal as part of Lanfears strength, if she was touching the angreal but NOT channeling or holding the source at all?

[pxnsolid]

Just holding an angreal would not add to her strength that anyone could feel, at least not in how every description of using an angreal i have read. They have to be channeled through, otherwise they are just a trinket.

[Nightstrike]

Ahhhh... I so (very, very much) wish RJ:s lists will be published in some form, not too far into the future. I know there might be readers out there that might wanna keep it unresolved. But, well, I'm not one of them.

 

Exercise 1)

Nynaeve has strength 80 & Aviendha has strength 70 & Cyndane has strength 90 - Lucker's version.

A medium angreal multiplies strength with ((2*80)/70=)2.2857 times

An angreal that's among the stronger ones should then multiply strength with at least 2.4 times in my estimation.

If Alivia has strength 85 (Lucker's version/Alivia is weaker than Cyndane)

2.4*85=204

If Alivia has strength 100 (Lucker's version/Alivia is stronger than Cyndane)

2.4*100=240

Both Alivia's strength estimations in relation to Cyndane's strength

204/90=2.2667 & 240/90=2.6667     ( =>  17.65% in difference between stronger/weaker alternatives)

 

Exercise 2)

Nynaeve has strength 60 & Aviendha has strength 40 & Cyndane has strength 80 - my version.

A medium angreal multiplies strength with ((2*60)/40=) 3.0 times

An angreal that's among the stronger ones should then multiply strength with at least 3.3 times in my estimation.

If Alivia has strength 70 (my version/Alivia is weaker than Cyndane)

3.3*70=231

If Alivia has strength 90 (my version/Alivia is stronger than Cyndane)

3.3*90=297

Both Alivia's strength estimations in relation to Cyndane's strength

231/80=2.8875 & 297/80=3.7125     ( =>  28.57% in difference between stronger/weaker alternatives)

 

 

I got to say that Lucker's estimations gave more realistic figures. But, even so, if we would see a fight between someone that can hold 2.2667 times more saidar than the other one - shouldn't strength come before skill when there are so huge differencies?

[triadruid]

I agree that Lanfear is near the top of the female power curve. But I strongly disagree that she's "taken her ego out of it" when she compares herself to Alivia. There's no reason to take her word on what Third Agers' maximum power is like... even if she happened to be right in this instance. Until/unless we see her face one of the modern wunderkind without *angreal, it's biased speculation.

[Tyrell]

She was a researcher into the One Power at the height of the Age Of Legengs, when there would have been millions of channelers. I'm fairly sure she would be able to say what the maximum possible strength in the power is.

[Nightstrike]

I've changed the numbers from my list, in search for a closer strength match between Cyndane and Alivia with *angreal.

 

Nynaeve has strength 55 & Aviendha has strength 45 & Cyndane has strength 85 - new version.

A medium angreal multiplies strength with ((2*55)/45=) 2.444 times

An angreal that's among the stronger ones should then multiply strength with at least 2.6 times in my estimation.

If Alivia has strength 60 (new version)

2.6*60=156

Alivia's strength estimation in relation to Cyndane's strength

156/85=1.835

 

Despite that, Alivia would still be 83.5 % stronger than Cyndane. It seems like a huge advantage.

That Cyndane must be one skilled lady.

[Jethro]

Forgive me if Im wrong but Im pretty sure an angreal doesnt multliply your strength, it just adds to it. If an angreal multiplies a channelers strength then each angreal would respond to people differently and I find that hard to believe. I think its more realistic that each angreal/sa'angreal has its own power score rather than a multiplier.

[Thor]

It's been stated many places throughout the books that the strength of angreal increases if the channeler is stronger when unaided.  In other words it's a multiplier.

[Jethro]

Mulitplying means the effect the angreal has can vary depending on whos' using it and I cant see that being the case. For example, I dont think the female Choeden Kal would raise Alivias strength more than it would raise Nynaeves.

 

I find it more realistic to think an angreal adds a set ammount rather than multiplying. I dont know any better than anyone else though, just the way I see it. But multiplying isnt the only way to increase, Thor. Try addition.

 

I dont remember anywhere saying angreal are stronger if the channeler is stronger unaided anywhere, could we get a quote on it please?

[Tyrell]

I always thought of Angreal as multipliers too. Not sure on what basis, but thinking about it as a sort of magnifying lense made sense to me.

[Nightstrike]

Forgive me if Im wrong but Im pretty sure an angreal doesnt multliply your strength, it just adds to it. If an angreal multiplies a channelers strength then each angreal would respond to people differently and I find that hard to believe. I think its more realistic that each angreal/sa'angreal has its own power score rather than a multiplier.

I would say that it's probably not adding a fixed power score. It could be a multiplier, but beyond that we are probably left to speculation (sadly enough).

 

I dont remember anywhere saying angreal are stronger if the channeler is stronger unaided anywhere, could we get a quote on it please?

"Not a strong angreal, but far better than nothing. With it, she could handle twice as much of the Power as Nynaeve, and Nynaeve herself would do better still." (The Path of Daggers, Unweaving)

 

Plus, I dimly recall someone saying that it's better for the stronger person to have the strongest angreal. I don't remember where that quote could be, so I might be wrong on that...

 

[Jethro]

Apologies then guys. I just thought it added a certain ammount, and that stronger angreal required a stronger channeler

[Luckers]

Ahhhh... I so (very, very much) wish RJ:s lists will be published in some form, not too far into the future. I know there might be readers out there that might wanna keep it unresolved. But, well, I'm not one of them.

 

It won't happent--RJ said that the list was a rough aid for him to know where less significant Aes Sedai stood in relation to each other so that he could keep track of who was higher ranked. He also said that it was just for his own purposes in dealing with writing those scenes.

 

Not that i wouldn't mind seeing it myself.

 

Exercise 1)

Nynaeve has strength 80 & Aviendha has strength 70 & Cyndane has strength 90 - Lucker's version.

A medium angreal multiplies strength with ((2*80)/70=)2.2857 times

An angreal that's among the stronger ones should then multiply strength with at least 2.4 times in my estimation.

If Alivia has strength 85 (Lucker's version/Alivia is weaker than Cyndane)

2.4*85=204

If Alivia has strength 100 (Lucker's version/Alivia is stronger than Cyndane)

2.4*100=240

Both Alivia's strength estimations in relation to Cyndane's strength

204/90=2.2667 & 240/90=2.6667    ( =>  17.65% in difference between stronger/weaker alternatives)

 

Exercise 2)

Nynaeve has strength 60 & Aviendha has strength 40 & Cyndane has strength 80 - my version.

A medium angreal multiplies strength with ((2*60)/40=) 3.0 times

An angreal that's among the stronger ones should then multiply strength with at least 3.3 times in my estimation.

If Alivia has strength 70 (my version/Alivia is weaker than Cyndane)

3.3*70=231

If Alivia has strength 90 (my version/Alivia is stronger than Cyndane)

3.3*90=297

Both Alivia's strength estimations in relation to Cyndane's strength

231/80=2.8875 & 297/80=3.7125    ( =>  28.57% in difference between stronger/weaker alternatives)

 

 

I got to say that Lucker's estimations gave more realistic figures. But, even so, if we would see a fight between someone that can hold 2.2667 times more saidar than the other one - shouldn't strength come before skill when there are so huge differencies?

 

Thats the point--Alivia, irrespective of whether she was weaker or stronger, would have been above twice Cyndane's strength--yet RJ stated directly that Cyndane's superior knowledge allowed her to hold her own for a time--for a time only, mind you. She may have managed to injure Alivia, but in the end Alivia drove her off.

 

I agree that Lanfear is near the top of the female power curve. But I strongly disagree that she's "taken her ego out of it" when she compares herself to Alivia. There's no reason to take her word on what Third Agers' maximum power is like... even if she happened to be right in this instance. Until/unless we see her face one of the modern wunderkind without *angreal, it's biased speculation.

 

I don't understand, are you suggesting that the Third Age strength limit might have increased? Because we do have reason to take her word of the maximum power a female channeler can reach--specifically, even if this wasn't common knowledge in an Age were the Power was so specifically investifated, then we have the fact that Mierin was an expert in the power, and as such would have that information anyway.

 

Irrespective, i did not state that she had 'taken her ego out of it', i suggested that the way she was thinking--the analysis of a foe's strength relative to a strength she no longer held meant that her ego was less inclined to bias her position.

 

Furthermore, the angreal itself does not bias her opinion 'in that instance'. She correctly deduces that Alivia held an angreal because she stood above the strength Lanfear had been capable of. There is not bias suggested in that, only accurate observation--oh i agree it means that any guesses about Alivia's relative strength to Lanfear become guesswork--but that has not impact on the relation of that comment to the presence of the angreal relative to Lanfear's strength.

 

I've changed the numbers from my list, in search for a closer strength match between Cyndane and Alivia with *angreal.

 

Nynaeve has strength 55 & Aviendha has strength 45 & Cyndane has strength 85 - new version.

A medium angreal multiplies strength with ((2*55)/45=) 2.444 times

An angreal that's among the stronger ones should then multiply strength with at least 2.6 times in my estimation.

If Alivia has strength 60 (new version)

2.6*60=156

Alivia's strength estimation in relation to Cyndane's strength

156/85=1.835

 

Despite that, Alivia would still be 83.5 % stronger than Cyndane. It seems like a huge advantage.

That Cyndane must be one skilled lady.

 

She is. RJ stated it as such.

 

Beyond which, and i dont mean this to sound harsh, but your numbers are incredibly unlikely--if the cut off point is at 36.2 then you are suggesting that the Aes Sedai range of strengths covers maybe 8% (required for Aviendha and the rest to be so far above the top Aes Sedai strength).

 

Forgive me if Im wrong but Im pretty sure an angreal doesnt multliply your strength,

 

Elayne states that the angreal will do more for Nynaeve than it would for Aviendha--that means its a multiplier, taking the original channalers strength into account with how much it increases it--its also why they gave the angreal to Talaan--if it simply increased by a set amount, then the Aes Sedai could have kept and used it.

 

It's a multiplier.

[Nightstrike]

Beyond which, and i dont mean this to sound harsh, but your numbers are incredibly unlikely--if the cut off point is at 36.2 then you are suggesting that the Aes Sedai range of strengths covers maybe 8% (required for Aviendha and the rest to be so far above the top Aes Sedai strength).

 

I read that RJ wrote this on his blog:

regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bell-curve… The question doesn't really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bell-curve. Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%.

I would say that 37.5% of all women with (some) channeling potential have NOT enough strength potential to test for the shawl. Since there ain't equally many channelers at every level, those 37.5% could well be below, for example, 9 or 10 percent of Lanfear's full strength. RJ was speaking of "percentage of women who could test for the shawl", and NOT "what strength would it take to test for the shawl".

 

[Nightstrike]

There's also a problem with assuming weak AS are at 40 and strong ones at 60...

 

The Guide says:

Two women linked can handle more than either could separately, and with much greater control than with multiple flows - ...

And RJ said(on his blog):

two women linking have slightly less of saidar available to them than the two women would have individually. 

 

At one time we have Rand thinking: "Yes, I can handle three, if they aren't too strong... Of course, if one of them is Moghedien in a wig, or Semirhage, I may be in trouble." (LoC, Gifts)

Lets assume we have three medium-AS, all at 50 in strength. If they formed a circle, then they would be at the very least 135 in strength. Rand's potential is at 108, but he hasn't reached it yet... So, he might be at 100. Especially given that women are generelly more skilled, I would say he might be in trouble. And yet he seems confident he can handle three.

 

We also have Egwene saying "... you are stronger than Aviendha and me together." (TFoH, This Place, This day). If they both were at 65 and he were at 100, I wouldn't think she would say that...

[Nightstrike]

We also have some info about Egwene's strength that seems interesting.

 

At the time they were sent to hunt 13 BA sisters:

"But each of you is more than a match for Liandrin in sheer power, and she is the strongest of them." (TDR, The Bite of the torn).

(at the time they were only months into their AS training)

 

We also have another quote:

"You are Aes Sedai, and strong enough in the Power to overcome Amys and Melaine together." (TFoH, Among the Wise Ones)

Amys=strong AS & Melaine=probably above average AS. Lets say Amys=55 & Melaine=50.

Even if the loss is 15% (unlikely), that would leave them at (55+50)*0.85=89.25. If Egwene were to overcome them, she'd have to be at least 90 in strength. That's impossible! The only reasonable conclusion is that there is a big gap between "strong Aes Sedai" (such as Moiraine) and Egwene. For instance, 17% (70/60) just isn't enough!

 

 

[Tyrell]

I always thought of the late third age AS as much weaker than a 50. I'd have stuck them much lower down the powerscale, except maybe a 50 for Moiraine, Suian, Elaida.

[Jethro]

Also I'd have thought Rand was more than twice as strong as Moiraine but there you go. Its guna be hard to get it all bob on

[Nightstrike]

I have reconsidered my listings after discussions in this thread. Here follows my new list:

 

 

100: Rand

98: Ishamael

95: Lanfear

93: Demandred

 

90: Sammael Taim Logain

85: Rahvin Aginor

80: Balthamel Graendal

75: Be’lal

70: Semirhage Mesaana

65: Asmodean

60: Alivia Sharina

55: Nynaeve Talaan

50: Tamela Viendre Moghedien

45: Egwene Elayne Aviendha Metarra

40: Bodewhin Someryn

35: Cadsuane

30: Nicola

 

26: Therava Rainyn

25: Moiraine Siuan Elaida Romanda Lelaine Jancy Amys Garenia/Zarya

 

 

Choedan Kal

 

24: Sheriam Galina Theodrin Leane Merise Pevara Yukiri Saerin Kwamesa Kiruna Reanne Kirstian Naime Rysael

23: Myrelle Silviana Beonin Coiren Desandre Faolain Felaana Joline Lemai Maigan Morvrin Talene Teslyn Anaiya Bera Nesune Carlinya Melaine Tebreille Caire

22: Delana Doesine Rafela Masuri Katerine Faeldrin Gabrelle Alviarin Sumeko Toveine Liandrin Seaine Edarra Leyn Renaile Shalon

21: Alanna Duhara Eldrith Keraille Merana Narenwin Verin Seonid Falion Ispan Tarna Kurin Chanelle Dorile Julanya Senine

 

Traveling

 

20: …

 

[Mr Ares]

I have reconsidered my listings after discussions in this thread. Here follows my new list:

 

 

100: Rand

98: Ishamael

95: Lanfear

93: Demandred

 

90: Sammael Taim Logain

85: Rahvin Aginor

Ishamael and Rand should be equal, Aginor should be as high as Lanfear, give or take, but still above Demandred and the others. He is second strongest man amongst the Chosen.

[Nightstrike]

Ishamael and Rand should be equal, Aginor should be as high as Lanfear, give or take, but still above Demandred and the others. He is second strongest man amongst the Chosen.

 

 

Ishamael and Rand could be equal, it's just that I have an allergy against placing two people at the absolute peak. The Guide says "equaled by none, but Lews Therin Telamon". I don't know, couldn't that mean that  LTT was 1-2% higher? Aginor "came close to rivaling Lews Therin" and Demandred had "almost as much strength". Demandred joined later, Aginor fears Demandred (inconclusive, I admit) and then there's the comparison between Rand's and Dashiva's Gateways. The gateways may have Talent-caused differencies, and it relies on the men being able to accurately estimate "strain". If the Guide is more or less correct, I would say that there can't be much difference between the two of them strength-wise. I agree that Demandred is more aggressive, and probably more skilled. Both as general and as OP warrior. I think I might have underestimated Lanfear's strength before, even though I've always placed her very high up. 

 

[Mr Ares]

Ishamael and Rand could be equal, it's just that I have an allergy against placing two people at the absolute peak.

Why?

The Guide says "equaled by none, but Lews Therin Telamon". I don't know, couldn't that mean that  LTT was 1-2% higher?

It might, but do we have any reason to place LTT higher? Because I can't think of any.

Aginor "came close to rivaling Lews Therin" and Demandred had "almost as much strength". Demandred joined later, Aginor fears Demandred (inconclusive, I admit) and then there's the comparison between Rand's and Dashiva's Gateways. The gateways may have Talent-caused differencies, and it relies on the men being able to accurately estimate "strain".

Aginor came close to rivalling LTT, but is 10 points lower on your list? Why so far down? He is specifically stated to be second strongest man, why disregard that without some evidence? At least put him equal with Demandred, not so far behind.

[Nightstrike]

I was thinking about Aviendha saying "You are Aes Sedai, and strong enough in the Power to overcome Amys and Melaine together." (TFoH, Among the Wise Ones).  I just realized that Egwene had been forced at the time, and what if Aviendha meant ”strenght potential enough in the Power to overcome Amys and Melaine together”. What difference would that make?

 

After just a few months of AS training, Egwene was well above Liandrin in strength. And Liandrin is far from weak (not very far behind Moiraine). So, in Lucker’s scale, I would say if Aviendha had  met an unforced Egwene, she would have been about 62 in strength (Moiraine=60 & Egwene’s end-potential=70). Lets say that, after being forced, Egwene had already reached 69 in strength (unlikely, since her end-potential is 70). Aviendha is now trying to figure out Egwene’s end-potential. In other words, lets say her approximation=x .

 

x/69=70/62

x=77.9

 

If "Aviendha's view of Egwene’s potential" is greater than Melaine linked with Amys, their added strength (without loss from linking) must be well below (77.9/0.85=) 91.6. But Melaine added to Amys (without loss) is at least 105 in strength. For this to be correct, the loss for linking would have to be at least (1-(77.9/106)=) 0.265. That doesn’t fit the description RJ gave – he said 2 linked could wield “slightly less”. More than 1/4 loss is hardly “slightly less”. Not to mention the problem we would have to deal with, when Egwene describes Rand as “stronger than me and Aviendha together”. Even if Egwene is 69 and Aviendha 64 (she’s one year older than Egwene), they would be 97.8 in strength linked (after 26.5% penalty, which I want to point out is extremely unlikely). RJ said the strongest woman and the strongest man could accomplish the same, due to women being more skilled. We would therefore have to compensate for this. In effect, Rand would have to be at the very least (97.755*(108/100)=) 106 in strength  – I’d say he would have to be much stronger than that to have handled them like kittens! And end-potential is 108 (Lucker’s scale). That doesn’t seem reasonable.

 

And over to my own list. I would probably have to change my placement of  Moiraine and those below her in strength, if we assume Aviendha was talking about potential… Lets say, for arguments sake, that I assume Moiraine is 30 in strength (my scale). After just a few months of AS training, Egwene was well above Liandrin in strength. Changing my previous list accordingly would make Liandrin roughly 27 in strength. That would make Egwene at the very least 29 in strength before the BA hunt.  In my scale, I would estimate an unforced Egwene to have been at least 31 in strength at the time Aviendha was talking to her about strength. Lets say that, after being forced, Egwene had already reached 44 in strength (45 is her end-potential in my list). Aviendha is now trying to figure out Egwene’s end-potential. In other words, her approximation=x .

 

x/44=45/31

x=63.9

 

If "Aviendha's view of Egwene’s potential" is greater than Melaine linked with Amys, they must be well below (63.9/0.85=) 75.1. That's without loss from linking. In my "changed" list, they would be at 58 – far below the limit 75.1. It does indeed add up! But Moiraine’s (& company’s) OP strength can’t possibly be any higher than 30 (IMO), because to be sure to handle 3 AS, all three 30 in strength, Rand would have to be well above (30*3*0.9*100/95=) 85.3 in strength. If they, for example, all were 32 in strength and he only 88 at the time, I don’t think he would have been so confident about his chances.

 

 

On the other hand, I would say it seems more likely that Aviendha indeed was talking about Egwene's actual (reached) strength at the time.

 

 

 

 

Just adding some further evidence that Egwene & Aviendha both were stronger than Moiraine around "The Fires of Heaven":

Aviendha said “I may not know as much as Moiraine Sedai, but I’m as strong as Egwene,…” (TFoH, News Comes to Cairhien). That would in all likelihood mean that Egwene is stronger than Moiraine. And Aviendha can’t be very far behind.  At one time we had Egwene thinking  “… Aviendha worked at learning to channel with grim determination. She could not Dreamwalk, but she surely put as much effort into absorbing every art of a Wise One as she could ever have put into learning her weapons as a Maiden.” (TFoH, Among the Wise Ones).

When Aviendha and Rand were in Seanchan, Rand asked Aviendha if she could shield 4 damane. Aviendha replied “Of course. Egwene taught me to handle several flows at once. I can block them, tie those off, and wrap them up in flows of Air before they know what is happening. I am fast enough to handle them, and their horses, …” (TFoH, A Short Spear) – I doubt even Moiraine could do that!

 

And concerning Egwene’s strength, we have her thinking “Her teachers were always so cautious, whether Wise Ones or Aes Sedai in the Tower; it was hard to hold back when she knew that in so many ways she already outstripped them. I can do more than they realize.“ (TFoH, Among the Wise Ones). And Moiraine said “…but what if who is with Rahvin is Semirhage, or Graendal? Or Lanfear? These two might overwhelm one such, but could you face her and Rahvin together alone?” (TFoH, News Comes to Cairhien). That would probably mean that Egwene and Aviendha linked could take on Rahvin, at least in Moiraine’s opinion. We also have the quote, about Egwene/Moiraine, “Sitting, Egwene was nearly a head taller, and she was stronger in the Power besides, ...” (TFoH, What Can Be Learned in Dreams).

 

[Thor]

No idea about how much is loss in linking and there really is no solid material to even make any guess so let's rather not do that mmm?

 

But you need to remember that whenever someone says something about strength/weaknesses, it is always from their own perspective and is therefore not going to be accurate.  Aes Sedai (eg Moiraine) saying "strong" is not the same as let's say Graendal saying "strong".

[Nightstrike]

No idea about how much is loss in linking and there really is no solid material to even make any guess so let's rather not do that mmm?

 

The Guide says:

Two women linked can handle more than either could separately, and with much greater control than with multiple flows - ...

 

And RJ said(on his blog):

two women linking have slightly less of saidar available to them than the two women would have individually.

 

 

We have Elayne thinking (from using Bowl of the Winds) "At that moment, Caire drew deeply. Saidar flooded through Elayne, almost as much as she could hold;... " (TPoD, The Breaking Storm).

 

I'd say "slightly less" is somewhere between 15% and 1% loss! If we, for example, were talking about 1/4 or 1/3 loss, then it wouldn't be "slightly less" or "almost as much".

 

And what if one with strength 30 linked with one with strength 60 - and the one with strength 60 has a medium angreal (multiplying strength 2.2 times). If loss from linking was 18.6% or more, that circle would be WEAKER than the stronger one alone. We also have the situation that arises when someone is using a sa'angreal. Say she is 60 in strength and uses a sa'angreal that multiplies strength 4 times. If she would link with someone that is 40 in strength, and the loss from linking is 14.3% or more, then the circle would be WEAKER than the one channeler alone (with the sa'angreal). That's NOT correct, circles are meant to be stronger than one person alone. In fact, the quotes I've given above in this very post says that "Two women linked can handle more than either could separately, and with much greater control...".

 

 

 

But you need to remember that whenever someone says something about strength/weaknesses, it is always from their own perspective and is therefore not going to be accurate.  Aes Sedai (eg Moiraine) saying "strong" is not the same as let's say Graendal saying "strong".

As long as that's all they're saying (or thinking), then I agree 100% with you! But given the amount of quotes that I have given in my previous posts - all containing more info than "strong" - I would say it's possible to draw some conclusions. For example, Egwene had reached higher strength than Moiraine at TFoH, and Aviendha was not far behind Egwene in reached strength.