'Wheel of Time' and other fiction similarities

[mb]

I started a thread about 'Wheel of Time' and 'Lord of Rings' similarities;  that thread I intend to return to that topic, any Middle-Earth book would be relevant to that topic.

This thread is less restrictive.  This thread shall be about similarities with any fiction.  Only limit I set for this thread is that you have read on which you comment on.

The mentioned similarities may not have been what Robert Jordan intended, yet this thread is not to debate that.

 

I just have one for right now::

 

Padan Fain, his name Ordeith means wormwood; CS Lewis's Screwtape Letters has a character named Wormwood.

 

[Ndshacker]

Eragon-

 

Roran Strong Hammer is blacksmith apprentice of his village who repels attacks by the evil king, using a hammer.

The main character lives by the Spine of the World, a "cursed" Mountain range.

The main character sets out on his adventure when the RAZAC attack his farm. 

His mentor is Brom, skilled in fighting and "magic" 

 

WOT-

 

Perrin Aybara is blacksmith apprentice of his villlage who repels attacks by the trollocs, using a axe, he later takes up the hammer.

The Characters live by The Mountains of Mist, a "cursed" Mountain range.

The main character sets out on his adventure when the Trollocs attack his farm.

His mentor is Lan/Moiraine, skilled in fighting and "magic" 

[Mr Ares]

Padan Fain, his name Ordeith means wormwood; CS Lewis's Screwtape Letters has a character named Wormwood.

A name original to neither author. It is biblical in origin.

"And the third angel sounded' date=' and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." (Revelation 8:10, 11 - KJB).[/quote']

[bg.vince.earl@gmail.com]

Some of the similarities I've seen:

 

Aiel=Fremen from Dune

Aes Sedai= Bene Gesserit from Dune

Moraine=Gandalf=mentor guy in Eragon=Kelsier in Misborn=Dumbledore=fairly stock character who gets the hero started, keeps him/her alive for a while, usually dies, and is sometimes resurrected

Moraine=Sirius Black from Harry Potter (both fell through a weird doorway; this lead to my ultimately futile hope that Sirius would come back and my still hesitant hope that Moraine will return)

Padan Fain=Gollum

Ringwraiths=Dementors (Harry Potter)=Ra'Zac (Eragon)=the Forsaken

Orcs=Goblins=Urgals=Trollocs=Buggers (Ender's Game; note there's a great twist on the theme here)=nameless hordes of at least semi-intelligent, carniverous (often cannibalistic) bipeds that are usually some corrupted forms of man/elf

Ents=Ogier (both are comparatively long-lived, reclusive, and avoid being "hasty")

Callandor=The Ring (surface similarities that last only until we find out we'll be seeing the Choedal Kal)

Sauron=Shai'Tan

Mt. Doom=Shayol Ghul

 

These are, IMO, some pretty surface level similarities. So, on deep inspection, some of the comparisons break down. I think all of these books draw inspiration from each other and from the collective mythologies of the world.

 

It's amazing that, with so many of the same elements, authors can write such original tales.

 

Can anyone extend my comparisons to other books? For example, what are some other manifestations of the nameless horde?

[Ndshacker]

mentor guy in Eragon

 

His name is Brom

[Hybrid]

Buggers (Ender's Game; note there's a great twist on the theme here)

I agree.  :)

 

Considering similarities, fantasy stories tend to have similar character types and plot sequences because those are the tried and true methods.  For example, the untrained hero from backwater town and old, experienced mentor combination works because the reader needs to be introduced to the fantasy universe, and arguably the best way to do so is through the eyes of another character unfamiliar with much of the universe, thus justifying the explanations as well as making them more realistic.  At least, that would be the natural approach in a first-person or limited third-person (or whatever the proper name is) point of view.

 

As for Eragon, the whole plot is so ridiculously like Star Wars I can't bear to continue following it.  I despise that series.

[Ndshacker]

You mean like... "Eragon I AM YOUR brother."

[Hybrid]

You mean like... "Eragon I AM YOUR brother."

Right.  Or the whole opening sequence with the heroic princess with the precious cargo be chased by the bad guys and sending that cargo away when the bad guys arrive.  Or the back story with the traitor in the guardians of peace and justice who corrupts and eliminates them.  Or the attack on the farm of the aunt and uncle of the main character because he stumbled on the rebels' last hope, resulting in him running away with the wise old man who turns out to be one of the former guardians of peace and justice in disguise.  Or the long trek to the rebel base, during which the heroic princess is rescued from the bad guys and the wise old man dies.  Or the final battle occurring at the rebel base.  Or the main character encountering yet another wise old former guardian of peace and justice.  Etc.  Take your pick.  It's not the exact plot of Star Wars, sure.  But the similarities are there and pretty obvious at that.  Though, I haven't and won't read Brisingr, so I don't know if the trend continues.  And to be fair, the plot of Eldest starts a trend from complete rip-off to heavy similarity.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

A name original to neither author. It is biblical in origin.

Wormwood is also the name of a mildy hallucinogenic herb.

 

It's used in the creation of absinthe.

 

It's very bitter and can be used to take away pain.

 

So, potentially, many sources/reasons for naming him as he did.

[bg.vince.earl@gmail.com]

mentor guy in Eragon

 

His name is Brom

 

[sarcasm]Almost as memorable as the series he comes from.[/sarcasm]

[Jethro]

WHEEL OF TIME VERSUS SWORD OF TRUTH

 

Rand and Richard look exactly the same. Richard looks like Rand.

 

Seekers for Truth (Tinkers) vs. Seeker of Truth (Richards role)

 

Blademasters appear in both.

 

Wizards and Confessors used to accompany each other like Aes Sedai and Warder.

 

Aran'gar & Osan'gar - Short tailed gars and long tailed gars.

 

Aes Sedai & Black Ajah vs Sisters of the Light & Sisters of the Dark.

 

Richard and Rand both find out their father isnt really their father.

 

Some Chosen are reincarnated by the Dark One - Darken Rahl...just comes

back...more than once

 

Both mens significant swords have a flaw or drawback.

 

Darkfriends - Banelings.

 

Children of the Light - Blood of the Fold.

 

BALEFIRE AND CHAINFIRE. Both can unravel reality-but listen to this; Chainfire...makes people forget you ever existed but doesnt change anything, yet it can still unravel reality and whatnot.

 

The list can go on until Terry stops

[RAND AL THOR]

 

Callandor=The Ring

 

What?

[sleddog116]

The Perrin/Wolfkin thread of the story hearkens somewhat back to Jane Lindskold's 'Firekeeper' series.  (I think WoT actually came first, but Lindskold's books were really what got me into reading fantasy...)

[Telzen]

The Perrin/Wolfkin thread of the story hearkens somewhat back to Jane Lindskold's 'Firekeeper' series.  (I think WoT actually came first, but Lindskold's books were really what got me into reading fantasy...)

Ah I started to read this a few years ago, but after reading WoT it just didn't seem all that great. Might have been better if I had read more fantasy before I read WoT cause its just hard for series to live up to my expectations now. Guess I should check it out again since we have a while until AMOL.

[animegirl]

You may not agree but I find the following similar and don't think they have been mentioned yet:

 

Wolfbrother Perrin:Zelda: Twilight Princess storyline is similar. Link becomes a wolf in the Twilight realm

 

Moiraine: Reminds me of Polgara in David Eddings Belgariad. She likes to wear blue and is a powerful sorceress. She plays a sort of guiding and motherly role to the young hero.

 

LOTR: The sounding of the Horn of Valere, reminds me of Aragorn calling the ghosts to help at Gondor.

 

Dune: Worms = wyrms in the blight, Paul Atreides = Rand, Chani = Aviendha, Irulan = Elayne, Feeling high using the one power kind of like the Spice trances. Feyd = Mazrim Taim

 

Wizard's first rule: Dragkhar = gar

 

Final Fantasy 6: Setzer = Mat

 

Final Fantasy 8: Rinoa = Elayne

 

Final Fantasy 10: Al Bhed = Aiel

 

Final Fantasy 12: Ashe = Elayne

 

Prince Valiant: Rowanne = Birgitte

 

Dragonlance: Kitiara = Lanfear, Ariakis = Ishmael, Queen of Darkness = Dark One

 

Nightmare on Elm Street: Things that happen in the dream world can kill you

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

The Perrin/Wolfkin thread of the story hearkens somewhat back to Jane Lindskold's 'Firekeeper' series.  (I think WoT actually came first, but Lindskold's books were really what got me into reading fantasy...)

If WoT came first, surely it hearkens forward, not back?

 

my still hesitant hope that Moraine will return)

She will.

Callandor=The Ring (surface similarities that last only until we find out we'll be seeing the Choedal Kal)

Why? Because both are powerful? All callandor does is magnify the amount of Power one can use. On the other hand, Sauron put his own power in the ring, so it is powerful in its own right. Callandor is only powerful in the hands of a channeler.

Sauron=Shai'Tan

If Shai'tan were to be compared to anyone in the Tolkien canon, might Morgoth be a better example? Sauron was only his servant after all. Of course, Shai'tan is a god in His own right, not a mere angel with ideas above his station.

[Green Witch]

A lot of epic fantasy and space opera follow the pattern that Campbell pointed out in his book Hero with a Thousand Faces. I can't remember all the elements because it's been ten years, but I remember the bit about the call to adventure and the tempter. Maybe someone who's read the book more recently can go into it better. But I think the common characters we see are the archetypes examined by Campbell and they are characters we like to see in our stories. I guess my real point is that no one is copying exactly, though I think Paolini could have done a much better job making the story his own, I think people are telling the same tale in their own way. RJ did a great job of making the story his own. Others didn't have his skill. Tolkien did an awesome job too. Actually a fantastic job. Anyway, there's a saying, "There's nothing new under the sun."

 

One of the things that appealed to me in both Tolkien's and Jordan's story was the diminished world. Tolkien's tale had kind of a sad note that the great works were done. It seemed to me that the magic was leaving the world with the elves and Aragorn would be the last great king of Man. I loved when the characters came across the relics of past kingdoms. That is part of what drew me into WOT. Jordan gave us Manetheren right out. Then tragic Ardhol. It's also one of the things I like about Tad WIlliam's Memory Sorrow and Thorn. The Stone of Farewell is one great big relic of a past glory. I really enjoyed all those haunted Sithi cities.

 

Man, now I have to dig up that series to re-read also. These boards made me pull out EotW for the first time in almost 10 years, which led to the rest of the series. Then out came A Song of Ice and Fire. Now Memory Sorrow and Thorn. Yikes! WHat next?

[Mr Ares]

Man, now I have to dig up that series to re-read also. These boards made me pull out EotW for the first time in almost 10 years, which led to the rest of the series. Then out came A Song of Ice and Fire. Now Memory Sorrow and Thorn. Yikes! WHat next?

Prince of Nothing by R. Scott Bakker. If you've not read it already, do so now.

[Green Witch]

Mr. Ares, you are merciless! But I will look it up because I haven't read it yet. Thanks!

[kilika]

Final Fantasy 8: Rinoa = Elayne

Final Fantasy 10: Al Bhed = Aiel

 

Rinao = Elayne?

Rinao is the daughter of a rebel faction / had dark hair / gets given squalls ring - any of this anything like Elayne?

She falls in love with squall but another 2 women don't

If anything the whole ring thing is a bit like Lan/Nyneave

 

Al Bhed = Aiel?

They live in the desert thats about it

They have swirling irises in their eyes / are not particularly tall / nor great warriors / they use reclaimed machina and travel of hover crafts

 

 

Not being nasty just wondered what u were getting at  ;D

 

[sleddog116]

Wolfbrother Perrin:Zelda: Twilight Princess storyline is similar. Link becomes a wolf in the Twilight realm

 

It's funny you should mention ZTP - I was just thinking how much I thought of Moiraine when I saw Zelda in that game.

 

But for my big, long explanation:

 

I think that almost all fantasy stories have certain 'threads' (if you'll pardon the expression) running through them, which have been around since before the oral traditions of Beowulf (although great pioneers of high fantasy such as Tolkien and Lewis certainly gave them a little more structure).  Fantasy and science fiction are, after all (as Gene Roddenberry said often), metaphors for life as we know it - by taking the evils (and positive things) of the world we know and putting them in a somewhat-unbelievale setting, we can point out the problems we see without pointing our fingers at actual people. (I have experienced this both in reading and writing fantasy stories)  A lot of these characterizations fall into certain archetypes, which are manifested in the characters of the story. 

 

Bear with me on this - take a look at some that I have observed through all of the fantasy I've read.  Of course, feel free to disagree (be gentle ;)) or add to this:

 

1) The young/naive hero (often the "chosen one" and/or main character, slayer of dragons, etc.) who must 'come of age' and overcome personal demons coupled with inexperience in order to save the world or someone/something he/she cares deeply about.

Examples:

-Rand al'Thor

-Luke Skywalker (Star Wars)

-Frodo Baggins (The Lord of the Rings)

-Edmund (and Peter) Pevinsey (The Chronicles of Narnia (esp. nos. 2 & 4)

-Link (The Legend of Zelda)

 

2) The wise mentor (often the "sacrificial lamb") who teaches the main character about his responsibilities.  Also teaches him about his abilities and how to use them.  This character can be any age but is usually portrayed as being a little elderly, because this character must have a great deal of worldly experience.  Or this character may be some supernatural force or guide who is sort of a 'Messiah' figure; the essence of self-sacrifice.

Examples:

-Moiraine

-Gandalf the Grey (The Lord of the Rings)

-Obi-Wan Kenobi (Star Wars)

-Aslan (The Chronicles of Narnia)

-Mr. Spock (Star Trek - esp. The Wrath of Khan)

-Brom (The Inheritance Cycle)

 

3) The likeable, unrefined warrior on the outside (a scoundrel or pirate-like character, sometimes ends up as a sidekick) who doesn't really want to be involved but is more or less forced into his destiny.

Examples:

-Mat Cauthon

-Peregrin Took/Meriadoc Brandybuck (The Lord of the Rings)

-Han Solo (Star Wars)

-Skandranon Rashkae (The Mage Wars by Mercedes Lackey/Larry Dixon)

 

4) The valiant, passionate outside warrior who acheives greatness because of (or sometimes in spite of) the main hero.  He or she is fighting for his or her home/loved ones even if he/she doesn't always immediately understand the gravity of the situation.

Examples:

-Perrin Aybara

-Samwise Gamgee (The Lord of the Rings)

-Leia Organa (Star Wars)

-"Bones" McCoy (Star Trek)

-Reepicheep (The Chronicles of Narnia)

-Derian Carter (The Firekeeper series by Jane Lindskold)

---------

 

These are just the protagonist archetypes - I haven't a list of villains yet, but I'll try to come up with one.  Of course, each story may have more than one character in each archetype (for example, Egwene al'Vere fits into archetype #1 rather nicely), and certain characters may fit into more than one archetype (the enigma of Spock, for instance, who at different times could fit into a number of different places).

 

I don't know much about Final Fantasy - I've never played any of those games (based on opportunity more than interest); I've only presented what I'm familiar with.  If you think you can add to this, please do.

[bg.vince.earl@gmail.com]

my still hesitant hope that Moraine will return)

She will.

I'm not getting my hopes up. Just in case.

 

Callandor=The Ring (surface similarities that last only until we find out we'll be seeing the Choedal Kal)

Why? Because both are powerful? All callandor does is magnify the amount of Power one can use. On the other hand, Sauron put his own power in the ring, so it is powerful in its own right. Callandor is only powerful in the hands of a channeler.

 

Early in the series, Callandor is a magical item of extreme power. Also, Rand's possession of Callandor doesn't seem to guarantee final victory, but Jordan implies that it would be devastating if the forsaken were to get their hands on it. As I said, surface similarities.

 

Another comparison is with King Arthur's Excalibur (sword in the stone).

 

Sauron=Shai'Tan

If Shai'tan were to be compared to anyone in the Tolkien canon, might Morgoth be a better example? Sauron was only his servant after all. Of course, Shai'tan is a god in His own right, not a mere angel with ideas above his station.

 

I think we can make some pretty good comparisons both ways. During the plot of The Simarillion, Morgoth and Shai'tan I think fill the same roll. And at the end of The Simarillion, Morgoth is effectively taken out of the picture by the creator, which is very similar to the Dark One being bound by the Creator at the moment of creation. However, his direct influence is gone, and any ill that he inflicts is residual--the effects of his underlings (i.e., Sauron).

 

At that point, Sauron "steps up," and it's never mentioned that he intends to release his master; he just wants to take over himself. So at that point, he's filling the "ultimate bad guy" role and makes for a good comparison with Shai'tan.

 

Because we know Jordan didn't copy from anyone (borrow, sure, as everyone does, but not copy), we're not going to see a one to one relationship here.

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, you are merciless! But I will look it up because I haven't read it yet. Thanks!

I know I'm merciless. And if you like the series, the first volume of the sequel trilogy is out in January. It's called the Judging Eye. And Prince of Nothing is a very good, if dark, series.

 

I think that almost all fantasy stories have certain 'threads' (if you'll pardon the expression) running through them, which have been around since before the oral traditions of Beowulf (although great pioneers of high fantasy such as Tolkien and Lewis certainly gave them a little more structure).

Fantasy or high fantasy? Most of your examples suggest the latter, although those archetypes you list are not confined to fantasy/science fiction.

 

my still hesitant hope that Moraine will return)

She will.

I'm not getting my hopes up. Just in case.

If she doesn't, Rand fails.

 

Callandor=The Ring (surface similarities that last only until we find out we'll be seeing the Choedal Kal)

Why? Because both are powerful? All callandor does is magnify the amount of Power one can use. On the other hand, Sauron put his own power in the ring, so it is powerful in its own right. Callandor is only powerful in the hands of a channeler.

Early in the series, Callandor is a magical item of extreme power. Also, Rand's possession of Callandor doesn't seem to guarantee final victory, but Jordan implies that it would be devastating if the forsaken were to get their hands on it. As I said, surface similarities.

But callandor, unlike the Ring, has no power in and of itself, nor is it an inherently evil thing in the same way the Ring is. I'm not sure it even counts as a surface similarity.

 

Another comparison is with King Arthur's Excalibur (sword in the stone).

The Sword in the Stone is usually taken to be a separate weapon to Excalibur.

 

I think we can make some pretty good comparisons both ways.... So at that point, he's filling the "ultimate bad guy" role and makes for a good comparison with Shai'tan.

Good point.

[sleddog116]

I think that almost all fantasy stories have certain 'threads' (if you'll pardon the expression) running through them, which have been around since before the oral traditions of Beowulf (although great pioneers of high fantasy such as Tolkien and Lewis certainly gave them a little more structure).

Fantasy or high fantasy? Most of your examples suggest the latter, although those archetypes you list are not confined to fantasy/science fiction.

 

I was generally thinking of high fantasy ('Tolkienesque' fantasy, as I like to call it), but as you said, it could really apply to any fantasy (or fiction in general).  As for my promised list of villain archetypes, here it is:

 

1) The personification of evil (the "Beast" or "Dark Lord") who intends to conquer and rule/reshape the world in his/her own twisted image.  This archetype may be manifested as an evil ruler or sorcerer/sorceress (or sometimes a "mad scientist" in science fiction), or it may not even be one single character.  This character could be a dark entity without physical form, or it may be an actual character surrounded by evil.  I have a long list of examples for this archetype to show the wide variety of possible characteristics.

Examples:

-Shai'tan

-The Emperor (Star Wars)

-Sauron (The Lord of the Rings)

-King Einon (Dragonheart)

-Melina Shield (the Firekeeper series by Jane Lindskold)

-Ma'ar (The Mage Wars by Mercedes Lackey/Larry Dixon)

-Ganondorf Dragmire (The Legend of Zelda)

-He Who Must Not Be Named (Harry Potter)

-The White Witch (The Chronicles of Narnia)

-The Goa'uld System Lords (Stargate: SG-1)

-Andross (Star Fox)

 

2) The puppet of the evil lord (or, "False Prophet" in biblical terms) who is often a harbinger of the dark lord's evil.  This character is rarely just a drooling minion, but instead may hold great power of his/her own.  The character is often (though not always) destroyed by his/her own short-sightedness and lust for power.

Examples:

-Ba'alzamon/Ishamael

-Darth Vader (Star Wars)

-Saruman the White (The Lord of the Rings)

-Lucious Malfoy (Harry Potter)

-Newell Shield (the Firekeeper series by Jane Lindskold)

-Aganihm the Wizard (The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past)

-Viserys Targaryn (A Song of Ice and Fire)

 

3) The misused minion (either knowingly or unknowingly) who was originally deluded by promises of power or mercy.  This character is interesting and not always as clear.  He/she might become a slave to the dark lord with no control, may be driven completely mad and commit dreadful atrocities to both sides, or may even see through the lies of the dark lord and join the forces of light.  This is an archetype which I find fascinating, but is a little more obscure than the others.

Examples:

-Padan Fain/Ordeith

-Lando Calrissian (Star Wars)

-Gollum/Sméagol (The Lord of the Rings; again, this character didn't know that he was being used)

-Peter Pettigrew/Wormtail (Harry Potter)

-Mr. Tumnus (The Chronicles of Narnia; this is more true in the book than in the film)

-Tyrion Lannister (A Song of Ice and Fire; but those familiar with the series know this could still go either way)

-Blind the Thief (The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past)

-Teal'c (Stargate: SG-1 pilot episode)

 

4) The army of the dark who carries out the deadly designs of the dark (try that three times fast).  For this archetype to be personified in a single character is extremely rare (I can't think of any examples), but there may be various single characters who fall into this group.  The members of these armies are usually portrayed as dull-witted and/or weak-minded.  Often, they are inferior creatures with very little mental capacity, but they can be portrayed as human and sometimes highly trained and disciplined.

Examples:

-Trollocs

-Orcs (The Lord of the Rings)

-Stormtroopers (Star Wars)

-The Ja'fa (Stargate: SG-1)

-Moblins (The Legend of Zelda)

 

I'm sure I've probably missed a few here.  The villains aren't always as easy to identify (at least not for me), so add to this if you can.

[Jethro]

Final Fantasy 7

 

Hojo is Aginor.

 

Ridicule me for this one all you want, but on X Factor alot of the time Danni Minogue reminds me of Moiriane. She almost has the ageless look