Something to consider

[oroboros]

Hello to all

 

I'm new to these boards and have just finished reading the series so far.  I never considered looking for WOT forums until now but it's good to see that so many others enjoy the series and are dying to know whats going to happen.

 

I did thing of one issue that it would be very interesting to have an answer to and that is: what exactly has Moridin/Ishamael done to be raised Nae'blis? My understanding from the early books was the the forsaken all believe that whoever amongst them served the DO best whould be appointed to it so he must have done something.  Could it be something we are yet to learn of? and I wonder what implications it could cause?

 

If you have any thoughts I would be really interested to hear them

 

oroboros

 

 

[mb]

Why does Moridin has the title Nae'blis?

Several possibilities::

-Very strong in the True Power.

-Holder of Moghedien's and Cyndane's mindtraps.

-Survived encounter with Rand in Crown of Swords.

These are only guesses.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Morindin seems to be the only one the Chosen/Forsaken that has no ambitions of his on. I havent really seen him show any personal ambition of his. Atleast ambition that differs from ultimately freeing the Dark One.

[Fryn]

Note that when we first say him as the watcher he was not teh Naeblis, so it is based on actions off of screen we did not see between that point and the time he was given the mindtraps. The only thing we have to really go off of is he made sure Rand did not die in SG, and he said that small increases in chaos can be just as important as large increases. In the game he is playing; he mentions it is very hard to lose when you are playing both sides, and it appears the pieces represent main players in teh story. He also says he has spies with just about all of the groups. So it is likely subtle manipulations of both the DOs forces and making sure the light does things that will backfire int eh future but seem like teh right move at the moment. That is my take at least.

[Luckers]

Ishamael, and Moriding after him, both held positions of power because they looked at the big picture--unlike other Forsaken they worked because they thought the Dark One should and must succeed.

 

This objectivity is not complete--indeed it seems likely that Moridin ordered the new no-kill Rand order specifically because he worried about the effects of Rand's death on himself given the link....

 

Yet nevertheless he is more interested in the victory of the shadow than personal gain.

[MsDanya]

I dont think him holding the mindtraps has anything to do with him becoming the NAe'Blis in the firstplace. Didnt he get those AFTER he became Nae'Blis?

 

Also, I dont think we really know why he got taht position yet, maybe somehting happened when he was reborn, or got his soul stuck in his new body. A private chat with the DO is likely to have happened.

[Mik]

I did thing of one issue that it would be very interesting to have an answer to and that is: what exactly has Moridin/Ishamael done to be raised Nae'blis? My understanding from the early books was the the forsaken all believe that whoever amongst them served the DO best whould be appointed to it so he must have done something.  Could it be something we are yet to learn of? and I wonder what implications it could cause?

 

If you have any thoughts I would be really interested to hear them

Heya,

 

I think what makes Ishamael/ Moridin Nae'Blis was that he sacrificed himself so fully to Shai'tan, that he gave up part of his existence. He gave up part of his being to let Shai'tan inhabit that part.

 

 

[ventage]

if we look at fain and see what happened to him. he was corrupted and tortured and made into a search dog for the DO. this is someone made for a certain purpose. Same as shadar, same as say slayer. Now we know the DO has the power to change a being to suit his needs, maybe this moridin isn't 100% home made ishamael if you know what i mean. maybe he has been twisted into a DO's impression of what he wanted a Naeblis to be like since the rest of the 13 were such a disapointment?

[Mr Ares]

maybe he has been twisted into a DO's impression of what he wanted a Naeblis to be like since the rest of the 13 were such a disapointment?

How different is Moridin to Ishamael?

[ventage]

well i guess you don't have a lot to work on. but if we take what the forsaken say about how mad ishy was. sammael says he was half mad and less than half human. Lanfear said demandred wouldn't go like ishy because they saw where thinking he was the DO's heir got him. ill find the real quotes later if you want. anyway if you compare that to what we see in the later books moridin looks a bit more focused on the goal at hand. A little less crazy. Maybe the Do has taken him aside given him a little pep talk, or maybe the DO did something diffrent? im just specualting on what could of happened.

[D24g0n]

This objectivity is not complete--indeed it seems likely that Moridin ordered the new no-kill Rand order specifically because he worried about the effects of Rand's death on himself given the link....

 

If I remember correctly, Moridin was not linked to Rand until after he initially saved him.  That leaves me to believe that Moridin didn't want Rand dead for some other purpose.

[42Bonzo88]

    I have always been a cynic on any forsaken actually obtaining anything from the Dark One. I have problems with someone pure evil actually giving something promised. In my opinion, ventage is on the right track that the Dark One will just tweak any of the forsaken to be Naeblis (Moridin), or he will create his own (Shadar Haroth). If it ends up being a forsaken, they will be changed to suit the Dark One, most likely by giving up anything that made them an individual.

 

Just a guess.

[Thor]

Thing is, Ishamael/Moridin doesn't care about what happens.  To be honest I don't think he even cares which side he works for.  Outcome of the Last Battle is irrelevant to him since he knows it will just happen again, only the fight matters.

 

He only cares about the balance, the foward moving of time and since the Dragon was for the light, he chose to be for darkness.

[Jethro]

Thing is, Ishamael/Moridin doesn't care about what happens.  To be honest I don't think he even cares which side he works for.  Outcome of the Last Battle is irrelevant to him since he knows it will just happen again, only the fight matters.

 

He only cares about the balance, the foward moving of time and since the Dragon was for the light, he chose to be for darkness

 

Forgive me if I sound harsh but there is nothing at all in the books to suggest this. Moridin serves Shaitan for his own reasons which I am unaware of, but I find it very hard to believe he went over as Ishamael simply because the Dragon was a good guy.

 

As already mentioned, Ishamael served Shaitan out of loyalty rather than fear, like the others. Ishamael has been more succesful than the others and his moves have been on a bigger scale than the other Chosen-Ishamael was responsible for Hawkwings death and thus the fall of his empire, and Ishamael also integrated a network of Darkfriend channelers into the White Tower-the Black Ajah. Considering how long the Black Ajah has operated for, I would probably have given Ishy the position based on that deed alone. Not many could do that.

[Thor]

If Hawkwing's empire did not fall, there would be no emond's field, the Dragon would not have been reborn.

 

If the Ten Nations did not fall, there would be no emond's field, the Dragon would not have been reborn.

 

Ishamael's actions were always to ensure that time moves foward and that there will be changes.  Through changes, the wheel moves.  Him being on the shadow is just a flavour to him.

 

And he pretty much declared that he believes that is the way the wheel should work back at the Hall of the Servants.

[Jethro]

No. No no no no no.

 

Those actions forwarded the Darks plans specifically. Artur Hawkwing was Ta'veren, a corrective mechanism for the Pattern. Do you think Ishamael did what he did to Hawkwing so Rand could be born? No, he did it to take out a Ta'veren-not much can stand against a Ta'veren and if one can be disposed of, whoever he or she is, then it benefits the Dark specifically, because a Ta'veren can foil plans simply by existing. What you named above are consequences from Ishamaels PoV-to say that Rands birth was a direct action provoked specifically by Ishamael dealing with Hawkwing is like saying the Dark One put the Taint on Saidin so it could be removed later by Rand, or that Lews Therin intended to kill himself specifically to be reborn as Rand.

 

Elan Morin, Ishamael, Moridin, whatever name he is using, fights the same side because it is the side he chose. To say he serves balance as opposed to the Dark One implies that he should have switched sides many times over the millenia.

 

Moridin serves Shaitan, not balance. Thats all there is to it.

[Thor]

You are assuming that ta veren always has to be working for the light, there is no evidence for that.

Ta veren are spun out by the pattern, and Moiraine has already said that though the Creator is good, the Pattern is not necessarily so.

 

And where have you read that Ishamael has always fought the same side?  Elan morin tedronei (sp?)/Ishamael/Moridin are all one personality, ie he has not been reborn a single time throughout the story.  So ofcourse he has been fighting the same side.  But you don't know who he fought for in previous reincarnations.

[Mr Ares]

And he pretty much declared that he believes that is the way the wheel should work back at the Hall of the Servants.

Was this before or after he called for the complete destruction of everything? Ishamaels is a nihilist. He doesn't want balance, or a continuation of the Wheel, or power. He wants destruction. He wants an end. He follows Shai'tan because he believes Shai'tan's is the only side capable of final and lasting victory. The Light wins and survives. Shai'tan wins and destroys the Wheel, and remakes the universe. A final end.

 

The Dark One will just tweak any of the forsaken to be Naeblis (Moridin), they will be changed to suit the Dark One, most likely by giving up anything that made them an individual.

Doesn't appear to have worked in Moridin's case.

 

And where have you read that Ishamael has always fought the same side? You don't know who he fought for in previous reincarnations.

Indeed. Or even if he fought at all. As far as we know, Ishy's soul is nothing special. Reborn, the same as anyone else. No specific role to fulfill. It is only in this incarnation that he was who he was. His philosophies resulted in someone who sought escape from a meaningless existence, but knowing that with perpetual rebirth escape was impossible. Unless...

[Jethro]

The funny thing about this, Thor, is that I raised that about Ta'veren being good or evil point in another thread, and you replied to that post. Yet, a Ta'veren, good or evil, is there to set the Pattern right. That means if the Pattern needs something to happen, it is likely to happen whether or not the Ta'veren is evil. I'll give you an example. If there is a Darkfriend Ta'veren whos' minions need to die before they do something terrible, they might be drawn to the Darkfriend Ta'veren so they can die in a battle they otherwise wouldnt take part in. And that is the Pattern controlling it, not the Darkfriend Ta'veren. If something needs to happen, the Pattern makes it happen without good or evil in mind, only balance.

 

And where have you read that Ishamael has always fought the same side?  Elan morin tedronei (sp?)/Ishamael/Moridin are all one personality, ie he has not been reborn a single time throughout the story.  So ofcourse he has been fighting the same side.  But you don't know who he fought for in previous reincarnations

 

The thing is, previous incarnations dont really come into this because we were specifically talking about Elan Morin/Ishamael/Moridin this time round. Of course he has fought on different sides-the name Elan Morin was his name before people named him Ishamael for betraying them-but the point is Thor, you said Moridin serves balance, and he doesnt. How would his previous carnations make a difference to what side he takes? It doesnt because we arent talking about his past lives; the only reason Rands previous incarnation is important is because he is in the prophecies. Moridin does NOT serve balance, he serves the Dark One. His past lives dont come into it for several reasons-Moridin doesnt remember his past lives, which means they dont influence his current position on the Light vs Dark axis.

 

If what you say about him serving balance refers to Moridin playing both sides of the battle, then again that is incorrect-Moridin is the manipulator and one of his objectives is to steer Rand the way the Dark One wants him to go. Again, he serves the Dark One, not balance, otherwise he would have switched sides a while back.

[D24g0n]

Mr. Ares is correct, Moridin joined the Dark One because he agreed with the Dark One's main objective.  I can't remember where or in which book this is stated, but I remember that it was stated.

[Jethro]

Indeed. So thats more proof that Moridin serves the Dark One and not balance. "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" indeed.

[Thor]

Right let me put it differently.  I did not mean to say that he did it for the balance.  As I said, Ishamael wants (just my feeling) the forward continuation of time.  This is not going to happen is the Wheel keeps on spinning, so something needs to be done to upset the Wheel's motion.  And since LTT and the light were on the side of the circular wheel and obviously won't help him, he needed to be on the shadow's side.

 

Let the lord of chaos rule is just another statement for the forward continuation of time.  Entropy of the universe always increases (in our world).

 

RJ did say something about preferring a linear time rather than circular time.  I think the whole point of the series is that even though Fantasy world might seem marvelous and great, our world is still better.

[Jethro]

I must say Thor, that doesnt seem like what you meant before. I agree that Ishamael wants the forwarding of time to a point, but not that it was his main objective to going over to the Shadow. He doesnt want time to become linear, he wants a permanent end to the war.

 

My theory is that Ishamael went to the Dark because it seemed like a logical decision. From his PoV, I think he believed that while the Light could win over and over the Dark will always come back. And all it takes is for the Dark One to win once, and hes won forever. Seeing no other logical alternative Ishamael turns to the Dark, who cannot be beaten every single time, announcing his decision at an Aes Sedai council.

 

I dont think Ishy and the Dark One want an absence of existance; I think they want to sunder the world to an unrecognisable waste, severing all ties of power the Creator might have and thus meaning the world is theirs and theirs alone, and then rebuild it with a complete absence of the Light.

 

Thats my spin on it, anyway. Mostly speculation just like the rest.

[Thor]

No I agree, it doesn't seem to be what i said before.  If I meant what I said, I was wrong, If i didn't, I was still wrong.  Either way.

 

But the restated version is more correct.  Whether or not people agree with it is another matter.

[Mr Ares]

I dont think Ishy and the Dark One want an absence of existance; I think they want to sunder the world to an unrecognisable waste, severing all ties of power the Creator might have and thus meaning the world is theirs and theirs alone, and then rebuild it with a complete absence of the Light.

I disagree. I think Ishamael wants everything destroyed, and doesn't care about anything beyond that - whatever is beyond that won't include him. I think Shai'tan desires control. Whatever is left will exist only as an extension of Him and His will.

 

As I said, Ishamael wants (just my feeling) the forward continuation of time.

Any particualar reason why you think he wants that?