Aviendha's children

[camber71]

Could the 'odd' thing about Aviendha's children (according to Min's viewing in Winter's Heart) be that they are dragons ???? The Aiel are the 'People of the Dragon', and the sign of the Dragon is a serpent, so perhaps something occurs at the Last Battle which changes Rand in some Robin Hobb way. Then Avienha's children could be healthy, if odd, if quadruplets. This theory could also shed light on many of the prophecies concerning Rand, the Aiel, etc.

[sleddog116]

That whole thing really made me think of a spoiler from A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin.  Anyone who's familiar with that series knows what I mean.

 

Could it be that Aviendha will give birth to literal dragons?  That passage of WH really had me wondering what would happen next.  I'm also curious as to what will happen with Elayne's twins.

[camber71]

I, too, thought of Dany and her healthy triplets. To me, the serpent as the sign of the Dragon (not to mention aiel clan chiefs), has always been the elephant in the living room of Wheel of Time prophecy. None of people in Randland seem to know what a dragon is (not the way we do). It is in none of their legends as an animal. So if dragons ever were a reality in Randland, it was in an age long forgotten. Is this the age that gives it birth again?

[mb]

Other possibilities::

-the babies be marked with dragons like Rand & clan chiefs

-the babies be Shivan & Calian reborn.

 

[camber71]

I also believe that Elayne's children will be Shivan and Calian (of course, will the Last Battle occur before or after their birth-or during?). But Aviendha's children, 3/4 Aiel-1/4 Andoran, could be the rebith of dragons. It is often said that the Wheel of Time reflects War and Peace in significant ways; War and Peace ends with several hundred page postcript dealing with the main characters a full generation later. Perhaps this series will end similarly. At this point Elayne's children will be grown enough to blow the horn to end the age-perhaps heralding the remnant of a remnant of aiel blood who have become true dragons-perhaps not. Evil and good, light and dark, law and chaos-they are all mysteries. In our own age men have done great evil, but we remember the victims-sometimes as resilient, sometimes as heroes. Rand's cleansing of the source leads to a people committing self genocide. My point is that the serpent biting his tail is not only a symbol for the wheel of time, but for cyclical balance-the neutrality of the creator and the destoyer. This is what it means to be the Dragon-you are a paradox-life and death-the champion of the creator and the breaker of the world.

[lordofsoup]

That whole thing really made me think of a spoiler from A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin. 

 

is it good?

 

an other internet guy recommened it and I am not sure if I should read it

[camber71]

The Song of Ice and Fire is magnificent-apart from Martin writing slower than glaciers move.

[camber71]

No one finds it odd that nobody in Randland knows what a dragon is? It's not that I wantdragons in the series. After reading two Robin Hobb trilogies I truly do not. However, dragons must have been a mythological creature in some age, but now totally forgotten. If the wheel spins out reality after the memory of legend and myth fades to nothing, then it is possible for a true dragon to spin out-if not Rand, then maybe four of his children odd but healthy. Otherwise, the Aiel clan chiefs may as well be tatooed with gurgi's on their arms with Rand being the gurgi reborn (apologies to Taran).

[Majsju]

The First Age, ie the age before the AOL is supposedly our world, and since we have myths about dragons, they could easily have survived into the AOL. Especially if stories about astronauts and politicians survived.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

No one finds it odd that nobody in Randland knows what a dragon is?

Well, think of it this way.

 

We don't know what dragons were/are. They're a fantastical creation, with elements of historical animals thrown in. I mean, I know what an elf is, doesn't mean I think it existed.

 

Perhaps the dragon isn't a creature that has been imagined in this age.

However, dragons must have been a mythological creature in some age, but now totally forgotten.

Probably.

 

But with regards to this age, where do our thoughts about dragons come from?

 

Fossils, right? The only place we've seen big dino fossils is in the palace in Tanchico. Ok, the Ta'veran (sp) talk about the bones of huge fish in the hills back home, but that's not the same - legends about big fish'd be a little dull.  :P

 

My point is that very few people, across the world, have ever seen the bones of big ass animals.

 

Until that happens, I wouldn't expect imagination to create a "dragon" in this age.

 

Bearing in mind the amount of information that has been lost, dragons not being a common bit of knowledge doesn't really suprise me.

If the wheel spins out reality after the memory of legend and myth fades to nothing, then it is possible for a true dragon to spin out

Hmmm.

 

OK, I can agree, that as the wheel turns, etc., that there could well be a remergance of "mythological" creatures.

 

But, I don't think dragons ever existed. I think they are creations of our imagination. Therefore, I don't see dragons appearing.

 

Big lizards, maybe, but dragons? Nope. Not in my opinion.

 

What would be interesting to see would be interesting to see would be the events that would facilitate these animals becoming a feature again... But surely, that would have to involve the death of Man, mammals, etc...?

[sleddog116]

is it [A Song of Ice and Fire]good?

 

an other internet guy recommened it and I am not sure if I should read it

 

The story is interesting; from a technical standpoint, however, Martin is not a very good writer.  Many of his important characters are underdeveloped, and he often kills them needlessly.  His grammar could stand some significant improvement, as well.

 

I'll probably read his next volume (if he ever decides to finish it), but I think WoT is much better - when I read EotW, I began to wonder why I ever spent so much time on SoIaF.

[vasu619]

The First Age, ie the age before the AOL is supposedly our world, and since we have myths about dragons, they could easily have survived into the AOL. Especially if stories about astronauts and politicians survived.

 

I remember reading in some other discussion (about the Horn of Valere) that the horn was used in the First Age, so do we have a Horn of Valere tucked away somewhere? I don't get it.

[Tyrell]

is it [A Song of Ice and Fire]good?

 

an other internet guy recommend it and I am not sure if I should read it

 

The story is interesting; from a technical standpoint, however, Martin is not a very good writer.  Many of his important characters are underdeveloped, and he often kills them needlessly.  His grammar could stand some significant improvement, as well.

 

I'll probably read his next volume (if he ever decides to finish it), but I think WoT is much better - when I read EotW, I began to wonder why I ever spent so much time on SoIaF.

 

ASOIAF is better written in my opinion and well, people die in war. Being a PoV character or a good guy shouldn't give you an invulnerability shield.

 

I find Martin's story more streamlined than Jordan's with (certainly until A Feast For Crows) no pointless filler, for sure nothing along the lines of the paragraphs of clothing descriptions, characters being re-described, chapters in which nothing of significance happens etc. and no CoT. I've no idea about where criticism of GRRM's grammar came from, and while I can't say I was paying attention I didn't notice anything glaring either.

 

I agree though that George has developed a terrible terrible work ethic and while I respect his work and rate it as very high quality stuff I don't think I'd ever recommend ASOIAF to anyone any more. There's simply no indication that he's ever going to stop going to cons, editing anthologies, supporting Obama and watching American Football to get on and finish the series. He seems to have reached some sort of sticking point with Dance With Dragons where it's easier for him to procrastinate than get anything done.

 

I remember reading at the end of A Feast For Crows the apology for the nature of the book being basically half a book and the promise that - no worries - A Dance With Dragons would be along really soon and actually believing it.

 

And then various promises that the book is nearly done.

 

Finally the edict for people to stop posting about A Dance With Dragons on his blog because it gives him a sadface. Well frankly I don't care, I mean if he wanted to just blog his day to day activities and not have his fans there asking him difficult questions then he should just post under an assumed name, but then he wouldn't get a few hundred comments a day to distract him :/

 

If he ever manages to get the damn book finished he'll either have moved past whatever is holding him back and be on track to finish the series, or just give up all together and we'll have to call Brandon Sanderson in (now there's a guy who's really putting the work in).

 

In conclusion :

 

-Yes ASOIAF is really really good.

-No I wouldn't recomend it because if you end up liking it you'll have bought yourself years of frustration (it's been 8 years since A Storm Of Swords, probably one of my favourite books of all time, and we've only had half a book in A Feast For Crows since).

 

I don't think Avi will be giving birth to dragons, but that'd be rather interesting though prehaps cheesy.

[GrandpaG]

The heroes are ageless.

 

The horn is like a terangreal that does not require channeling...it is the present method of contacting the heroes.

 

There were probably other types of contact devices in other ages before the Horn of Valere was cast.

[Mr Ares]

Could the 'odd' thing about Aviendha's children (according to Min's viewing in Winter's Heart) be that they are dragons ???? The Aiel are the 'People of the Dragon', and the sign of the Dragon is a serpent, so perhaps something occurs at the Last Battle which changes Rand in some Robin Hobb way. Then Avienha's children could be healthy, if odd, if quadruplets. This theory could also shed light on many of the prophecies concerning Rand, the Aiel, etc.

I really doubt it. What could turn four healthy, human babies into dragons?

 

-the babies be Shivan & Calian reborn.

And the other two?

 

is it good? another internet guy recommened it and I am not sure if I should read it

Yes, ASoIaF is good, and yes you should read it. Anyone who tells you differently should be shot. Maybe not anywhere fatal, just a flesh wound, but still shot.

 

The story is interesting; from a technical standpoint, however, Martin is not a very good writer. Many of his important characters are underdeveloped, and he often kills them needlessly. His grammar could stand some significant improvement, as well.

While this thread isn't really the place, would you care to give examples of any of that? I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone citicise Martin's grammar. And which important characters are underdeveloped? Who is killed off needlessly?

 

I agree though that George has developed a terrible terrible work ethic and while I respect his work and rate it as very high quality stuff I don't think I'd ever recommend ASOIAF to anyone any more. There's simply no indication that he's ever going to stop going to cons, editing anthologies, supporting Obama and watching American Football to get on and finish the series. He seems to have reached some sort of sticking point with Dance With Dragons where it's easier for him to procrastinate than get anything done.

So is he supposed to put his life on hold to get the book finished? Nailing him to his desk won't necessarily get things done any faster. From what information he does let out, it appears work is progressing, and the fact that he broke a twenty-or-so year unbroken string of visits to Worldcon (I think. Werthead would probably know for sure) to carry on work on the book shows he does want this thing finished.

 

(it's been 8 years since A Storm Of Swords, probably one of my favourite books of all time, and we've only had half a book in A Feast For Crows since).

AFFC is not half a book.

 

Oh, I almost forgot: *shoots Tyrell and sleddog116*

[Tyrell]

AFFC is quite clearly half a book.

 

And George appears to have attended a goodly number of conventions, a signing tour, edited a few more wild cards book and a host of other things this year. But he still hasn't managed to finish the book.

[Mr Ares]

AFFC is quite clearly half a book.

Which half? AFFC is quite clearly a complete book in its own right. And what is CoT, or PoD? What fraction of book are they?

 

And George appears to have attended a goodly number of conventions, a signing tour, edited a few more wild cards book and a host of other things this year. But he still hasn't managed to finish the book.

Question is, why? He is still working on it, he is stil making progress. However, he has basically had to write the entire book from scratch, after having redone most of what he started with and getting rid of the five-year gap. While it's not the fastest output I've ever seen, just over 3 years (probably closer to four when released) is not exactly glacial writing, and he had a lot of problems left over from ASoS, structurally, and now he's having to sort them out. That takes time. And when you have to scrap almost all of what you've written and start from scratch, it only adds to the time. To state this is procrastination, or that he is no longer interested in the work, or similar, is hardly supported by the facts.

[vasu619]

The First Age, ie the age before the AOL is supposedly our world, and since we have myths about dragons, they could easily have survived into the AOL. Especially if stories about astronauts and politicians survived.

 

I remember reading in some other discussion (about the Horn of Valere) that the horn was used in the First Age, so do we have a Horn of Valere tucked away somewhere? I don't get it.

Explain to me pls.

[Tyrell]

AFFC is quite clearly half a book.

Which half?

 

The half without Tyrion, Danny, Jon, Bran, Theon and the rest of the other half of the cast. The half which takes place in the south (and braavos).

 

ADWD is the other half.

[mb]

-the babies be Shivan & Calian reborn.

And the other two?

 

Several possibilities:

-reborn of some other souls (that have not yet an actual body)

-their own souls

 

[Luckers]

I remember reading in some other discussion (about the Horn of Valere) that the horn was used in the First Age, so do we have a Horn of Valere tucked away somewhere? I don't get it.

 

RJ stated that it was used in the Age before the Age of Legends (our Age). So yes, either we have it tucked away somewhere, or else its going to be made during our Age, yet still in our future.

 

 

[vasu619]

I remember reading in some other discussion (about the Horn of Valere) that the horn was used in the First Age, so do we have a Horn of Valere tucked away somewhere? I don't get it.

 

RJ stated that it was used in the Age before the Age of Legends (our Age). So yes, either we have it tucked away somewhere, or else its going to be made during our Age, yet still in our future.

 

 

 

Woohoo! ;D

[Mr Ares]

AFFC is quite clearly half a book.

Which half?

The half without Tyrion, Danny, Jon, Bran, Theon and the rest of the other half of the cast. The half which takes place in the north (and the east).

 

ADWD is the other half.

It is the entire book for half the cast. Still all the book. And you didn't answer my question about PoD or CoT - what fraction of book are they? Or FoH for that matter? AFFC and ADWD are both complete books.

[mb]

This post may seem a bit late.

 

Another possibility of the oddness of the birth of Aviendha's babies::

-the simple fact that they shall be healthy

 

[Treblkickd]

RJ stated that it was used in the Age before the Age of Legends (our Age). So yes, either we have it tucked away somewhere, or else its going to be made during our Age, yet still in our future.

 

Did RJ ever say straight out that the Age before the Age of Legends is supposed to be our Age?  The only place I remember hearing that is from Thom at the start of the TEOTW, and I don't see any reason to take that as solid evidence.  All he (or anyone) really knows is that the stories of Mosk, Merk, etc are extraordinarily old, so they could date back to a previous turning of the wheel (I could imagine tenuous information surviving 2-3 Ages back in time at any given point on the WoT).  There are plenty enough strange artifacts floating around from pre-Age of Legends times (e.g. Portal Stones) and really nothing to go on concerning their relative ages and where our Age could fall in there.