How strong is Lanfear?

[Asmo]

Lanfear is stronger than all females, Asmodean, and very likely Be'lal and Balthamel. She is definately weaker than Ishamael, Demandred, Rahvin and Sammael. We cannot make a valid comparison between her and Aginor without a lot of guesswork.

 

While it is convenient to discard Forsaken statements as lies, they are still, generally, more reliable than random Third Age statements. Still, facts drawn straight from the books hold even more weight. An untrained Rand, while trying to defend his mind from Lews Therin and thus severely distracted, was able to hold off Lanfear's attacks while at a disadvantage, and still estimate he had enough strength to spare to kill her if he chose. Yes, they were using angreal, but Rand thought his was a weak one, in a quote unrelated to Callandor and much earlier than he learnt about the Choedan Kal, and anyway we see it can't pump him up to more than twice his strength, if that - Elayne thought of an angreal that bumped her to twice Nynaeve's strength, so much more than twice her level, as only middling strong. We don't have any implications about Lanfear's ivory bracelet, since neither Moiraine nor Lanfear commented on it, but if it was merely middling strong it should still be stronger than Rand's. Only a few chapters later Rand said that Rahvin was equal to him in strength and superior in knowledge, but he had the advantage due to his angreal - still later, when Rand came into contact with him and was able to sense his strength, said statement was not revoked - Rahvin said he and Sammael were drawing about the same amount of the Power but he was holding almost to his limit, and then Sammael proceeded to draw more, implying that Sammael is somewhat stronger. Demandred scared Aginor, but when the latter masqueraded as Dashiva post his rebirth, he was almost as strong as Rand when he was stated to draw as much as he could, and Rand had become stronger than during his fight against Rahvin. Aginor could probably tackle Balthamel with relative ease according to RJ's statement.

 

Ishamael > Demandred > Aginor >/=/< Sammael >= Rahvin > Lanfear.

 

EDIT: Hmm, just realized I haven't posted here in a while.

[pxnsolid]

Ok I did some digging, and what I remembered being a statement of the strength of the angreal was not, my mistake. The passage I was remembering is;

 

" The sight of Lanfear hit her like a blow. Not surprise, but the shock of seeing what had been in her dreams so often since Rhuidean. Lanfear standing on the wagonbed, blazing bright as the sun with saidar, framed by the twisted redstone ter'angreal as she stared down at Rand, a pitiless smile on her lips. She was turning a bracelet in her hands. An angreal; unless Rand had his own angreal, she should be able to crush him with that. Either he did, or Lanfear was toying with him. It did not matter.Moiraine did not like that circle of carved age-dark ivory. At first glance it seemed to be an acrobatbending backwards to grip his ankles. Only a closer look would show that his wrists and ankles were bound together. She did not like it, but she had brought it out of Rhuidean. Yesterday she had taken the braclet from a sack of odds-and-ends and left it lying there at the foot of the doorframe."

 

Now in my foggy remembering I had combined the blazing like the sun comment with her comment of Lanfear should be able to crush Rand and took that as a statement of the strength of the angreal. Rereading provides much clarity :)

 

:edited for some content

[Dr Pepper]

We need to remember that Lanfear was also holding off the Aiel, and torturing Aviendha and Egwene at the same time. She was also enjoying her battle with Rand. She wanted him to suffer before he died.

 

LANFEAR is extremely strong and should not be underestimated. She is the strongest a woman can be and so I feel that she could match ANYONE with the power as long as it is not Ishy and LTT.

 

JR said himself that men were stronger but that women were able to weave better so that the balance was readdressed. Therefore I belive that Mierins knowledges and power would enable her to be in the top 3 forsaken.

 

Nynaeve I believe is above Graendal but below Lanfear. She is strong but not yet to her full strength (which takes many years for women). The fact that mogie comments on her strength and how it would ammuse Rahvin sugests how strong Nynaeve could become. And we need to remember that Nynaeve faced Mogie no were near her full potential, and knowing nothing compared to Moghedian concerning the OP.

[Mr Ares]

Seems pretty lame that the strongest female potential is not high enough to match a mans highest potential (LTT and Ishy). I'm all for equality here  8)

Does it also seem pretty lame that men are, generally, physically stronger than women? And Lanfear is the strongest a woman can be, LTT and Ishy are stronger, Aginor is about the same, and the second strongest Chosen is one of those two (Aginor or Lanfear).

 

Demandred scared Aginor, but when the latter masqueraded as Dashiva post his rebirth, he was almost as strong as Rand when he was stated to draw as much as he could, and Rand had become stronger than during his fight against Rahvin. Aginor could probably tackle Balthamel with relative ease according to RJ's statement.

What was it about Demandred that scared Aginor? Was it because Demandred is stronger? Or just because he is scarier? Given that we have been told Aginor is the second strongest man, and possibly second strongest overall, with Lanfear being the other contender for tht title, I'd like to see a reason not to go along with those statements. Ishamael>Lanfear=Aginor (more or less)>Demandred.

[Nightstrike]

What was it about Demandred that scared Aginor? Was it because Demandred is stronger? Or just because he is scarier? Given that we have been told Aginor is the second strongest man, and possibly second strongest overall, with Lanfear being the other contender for tht title, I'd like to see a reason not to go along with those statements. Ishamael>Lanfear=Aginor (more or less)>Demandred.

I believe Aginor was the second strongest male Forsaken before Demandred, Sammael and Rahvin joined (or was exposed). Mesaana said that Demandred would undoubtedly have been the greatest man of his age if not for Lews Therin.

 

The big white book also mentions that before he switched side he was "second only to Lews Therin..." and "Born one day after Lews Therin, he had almost as much strength..." Despite that, I think Ishamael is stronger and Lanfear only slightly weaker. My guess is that Lanfear is the third strongest of all Forsaken, though it's probably almost undoable to compare male and female channelers with eachother.

[sillyman]

^^ i agree it seems to me the only possible way to directly compare male and female strength would be through a circle and even then you would have problems due to the strength decrease cause by circles, unless the decrease is uniform which seems totally unlikely.

[Mr Ares]

I believe Aginor was the second strongest male Forsaken before Demandred, Sammael and Rahvin joined (or were exposed).

Why do you believe that?

Mesaana said that Demandred would undoubtedly have been the greatest man of his age if not for Lews Therin.

Greatness and strength in the Power are not the same thing.

 

The big white book also mentions that before he switched side he was "second only to Lews Therin..."

...at what? Given that Ishy was as strong as LTT, this cannot be a reference to channeling strength.

and "Born one day after Lews Therin, he had almost as much strength..."

So did Aginor.

Despite that, I think Ishamael is stronger and Lanfear only slightly weaker. My guess is that Lanfear is the third strongest of all Forsaken, though it's probably almost undoable to compare male and female channelers with eachother.

I still think Lanfear is either second or third, behind Ishy, about the same as Aginor, with Demandred not far behind in fourth.

 

unless the decrease is uniform which seems totally unlikely.

Why?

[Nightstrike]

I believe Aginor was the second strongest male Forsaken before Demandred, Sammael and Rahvin joined (or were exposed).

Why do you believe that?.

Because Aginor joined the shadow before Demandred, Sammael and Rahvin. And because the BWB was written with the ignorance of "present day Aes Sedai" built in. So when it says "The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor, came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.", it doesn't have to be completely accurate. And, above all, there are examples from the series that more or less proves that he was outranked. Please let me copy and paste from Sidious excellent theory post from wotmania (I hope that's allowed):

ACoS (A Crown of Swords) - Saidin filled all four men, to overflowing it seemed. Dashiva held almost as much as Rand could have.

 

Rand’s assessment of Dashiva is accurate because he can sense strain when a man is holding his absolute maximum. We know that Dashiva is close to Rand in strength. Rand is still increasing in strength though because barely ten lines later Adley says that Sammael is as strong as Rand … and we know that Sammael was not as strong as Lews Therin. This small section provides evidence that Sammael is stronger than Aginor in the Power. Even though we believe that Demandred was stronger than Sammael, there is also some evidence that Demandred was stronger than Aginor …

 

WH (Wonderful News) … Osan’gar frowned at “idiots” and “blind fools,” as well he might, but he quickly smoothed that plain, creased face, so unlike the one he had been born with. By whatever name he was called, he had always known who he dared challenge and who not.

 

Demandred insulted Osan’gar to his face but his own reaction clearly states that Demandred was one of those he never dared challenge. This clearly refutes the fact that Aginor was stronger than Demandred in the Power … and a stronger man wouldn’t shy away from Demandred’s domineering personality.

 

 

 

 

Mesaana said that Demandred would undoubtedly have been the greatest man of his age if not for Lews Therin.

Greatness and strength in the Power are not the same thing.

No, you're right. That could probably mean anything.

 

The big white book also mentions that before he switched side he was "second only to Lews Therin..."

...at what? Given that Ishy was as strong as LTT, this cannot be a reference to channeling strength.

Well, Ishy was not among those on the same side as LTT, so he didn't count. But you're right, Demandred could be such a great general that OP strength didn't matter.

 

and "Born one day after Lews Therin, he had almost as much strength..."

So did Aginor.

(See the segment above, which I copied and pasted). Present day AS (and the BWB) could be slightly wrong - especially if RJ wrote such statements from a weaker channelers viewpoint. From that perspective there were probably several that were almost as strong.

 

[Mr Ares]

I believe Aginor was the second strongest male Forsaken before Demandred, Sammael and Rahvin joined (or were exposed).

Why do you believe that?.

Because Aginor joined the shadow before Demandred, Sammael and Rahvin. And because the BWB was written with the ignorance of "present day Aes Sedai" built in. So when it says "The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor, came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.", it doesn't have to be completely accurate. And, above all, there are examples from the series that more or less proves that he was outranked. Please let me copy and paste from Sidious excellent theory post from wotmania (I hope that's allowed):

ACoS (A Crown of Swords) - Saidin filled all four men, to overflowing it seemed. Dashiva held almost as much as Rand could have.

 

Rand’s assessment of Dashiva is accurate because he can sense strain when a man is holding his absolute maximum. We know that Dashiva is close to Rand in strength. Rand is still increasing in strength though because barely ten lines later Adley says that Sammael is as strong as Rand … and we know that Sammael was not as strong as Lews Therin. This small section provides evidence that Sammael is stronger than Aginor in the Power.

How accurate was Adley's assessment? Men can't accurately judge other mens strengths except through the amount of the Power they hold, but how much does distance affect their ability to detect the Power? Was Sammael close enough? Did Adley literally mean Sammael was exactly as strong as Rand, or did he just mean they were about as strong? Also, saying Aginor was "outranked" is slightly misleading - AoL hierarchy was not based on strength. There were some who outranked him politically, and some who were stronger than him, but they didn't outrank him because they were stronger.

Even though we believe that Demandred was stronger than Sammael, there is also some evidence that Demandred was stronger than Aginor …

 

WH (Wonderful News) … Osan’gar frowned at “idiots” and “blind fools,” as well he might, but he quickly smoothed that plain, creased face, so unlike the one he had been born with. By whatever name he was called, he had always known who he dared challenge and who not.

 

Demandred insulted Osan’gar to his face but his own reaction clearly states that Demandred was one of those he never dared challenge. This clearly refutes the fact that Aginor was stronger than Demandred in the Power … and a stronger man wouldn’t shy away from Demandred’s domineering personality.

This last is weak. Really weak. Aginor doesn't dare challenge Demandred in a face to face battle. Doesn't mean Demandred is stronger, it just means Aginor doesn't fancy his chances. Remember, Demandred is a guy who holds field commands and wants to kill LTT. Aginor is a guy who spends his time in a lab. Doesn't mean one is stronger than another. But who would you put your money on to be the better fighter?

 

The big white book also mentions that before he switched side he was "second only to Lews Therin..."

...at what? Given that Ishy was as strong as LTT, this cannot be a reference to channeling strength.

Well, Ishy was not among those on the same side as LTT, so he didn't count. But you're right, Demandred could be such a great general that OP strength didn't matter.

What reason do we have to believe that OP strength played a part in chosing Generals? And even when he switched sides, he would still be second to Ishy, at least. So he decided to switch from one side to the other even though he is still only the second strongest?

 

and "Born one day after Lews Therin, he had almost as much strength..."

So did Aginor.

(See the segment above, which I copied and pasted). Present day AS (and the BWB) could be slightly wrong - especially if RJ wrote such statements from a weaker channelers viewpoint. From that perspective there were probably several that were almost as strong.

Weaker channlers viewpoints? How much does strength determine how accurately one can determine someone elses strength? How does this afeect Adley's perception of Rand's and Sammael's strengths from earlier?

[Luckers]

Because Aginor joined the shadow before Demandred, Sammael and Rahvin. And because the BWB was written with the ignorance of "present day Aes Sedai" built in. So when it says "The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor, came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.", it doesn't have to be completely accurate. And, above all, there are examples from the series that more or less proves that he was outranked. Please let me copy and paste from Sidious excellent theory post from wotmania (I hope that's allowed):

 

The BWB, you forget, was ostensibly written by someone after the Breaking of the World--as such its statements of Aginors strength date from after Demandred, Sammael and Rahvin joined. As for your second point--he was outranked politically, not in the power.

 

And the wotmania post is in no way fact--forgive me if this seems arrogant, but i predate it, and have been arguing with those involved in making it, that it is listed in their FAQ does not make it doctrine--and is filled with logical fallacies. I've already point out some in the other thread, but ill address this one here.

 

ACoS (A Crown of Swords) - Saidin filled all four men, to overflowing it seemed. Dashiva held almost as much as Rand could have.

 

Rand’s assessment of Dashiva is accurate because he can sense strain when a man is holding his absolute maximum. We know that Dashiva is close to Rand in strength. Rand is still increasing in strength though because barely ten lines later Adley says that Sammael is as strong as Rand … and we know that Sammael was not as strong as Lews Therin. This small section provides evidence that Sammael is stronger than Aginor in the Power. Even though we believe that Demandred was stronger than Sammael, there is also some evidence that Demandred was stronger than Aginor …

 

The logical problem here is that male channeling is not easily sensed--from a distance Adley could not have a realistic perception of Sammael's strength. He was guessing, based on what Sammael was able to achieve. He even states as much--"A man channeling saidin, at least, and a lot stronger than Eben or me. As strong as you, my Lord Dragon, I'd say."

 

Thats especially true when added to the fact that RJ directly stated that channelers with more knowledge can achieve greater destruction. Adley sensed relatively strong channeling, witnessed massive destruction, and assumed based on his understanding of the power and the degree to which it can be used that Sammael was as strong as Rand--but that actually stands to nothing as evidence.

 

This second logical fallacy is that that stands to prove that Sammael was stronger than Aginor--the sequence of argument there makes no sense. Osen'gar is slightly weaker than Rand. Sammael was weaker than LTT. Sammael displays distruction that convinces a kid with a smattering of months experience with saidin that he is up near Rand, therefore Sammael is stronger than Osen'gar... umm, why?

 

I've been cited as being highly critical of the wotmania listing--this is why. And the sad thing is people tend to take it in without argument, or at least be more inclined to trust it, because it is listed in their official section.

 

WH (Wonderful News) … Osan’gar frowned at “idiots” and “blind fools,” as well he might, but he quickly smoothed that plain, creased face, so unlike the one he had been born with. By whatever name he was called, he had always known who he dared challenge and who not.

 

Demandred insulted Osan’gar to his face but his own reaction clearly states that Demandred was one of those he never dared challenge. This clearly refutes the fact that Aginor was stronger than Demandred in the Power … and a stronger man wouldn’t shy away from Demandred’s domineering personality.

 

Again a clear logical fallacy. That Osan'gar is cautious about annoying Demandred does not speak to their relative strengths. Osan'gar was a scientist, unused to direct confrontation. Demandred was clearly the more aggressive of the two--indeed, his reason for joining the shadow was because LTT was a stronger alpha male then he was, he himself was still a massive alpha male--and as such, given Aginor would have only been slightly stronger than Demandred then Aginor, the scientist, would have clear reason to be intimidated by Demandred, the alpha male, and not want to challange him.

 

That comment 'clearly' says nothing, the black and white suggetsion that strength blocks the chosen from challenging those who are stronger is directly disproven--Lanfear directly calls down Ishamael, yet Ishamael was stronger in the power.

 

Aginor was respectively weak-willed, Demandred was very strong willed. The degree in strength difference was not enough for Aginor to challange that.

 

Well, Ishy was not among those on the same side as LTT, so he didn't count. But you're right, Demandred could be such a great general that OP strength didn't matter.

 

Mmm, indeed given that millions could channel its almost impossible that there weren't others on the side of the Light as strong as LTT, much less Demandred.

 

It's skills and intelligence that won them their acclaim, not strength--though that no doubt helped.

 

 

[triadruid]

Lanfear's self-referential thought about her prior strength being "impossible" to overcome isn't conclusive; the Chosen are famous for their derogatory opinions of modern channelers, so all it needs to be is that she's incredulous that someone from such a debased time is able to outdo her.

 

At least two modern miracles have outstripped what was possible in the Age of Legends, so I don't find that statement nearly as conclusive as some others do here.