Sangreal Multidraw.

[Ndshacker]

If Rand had Two sangreal, say The Choden Kal and... An un-messed up Callandor. Could he draw through both, or would he be burned to cinder? And also could he condition himself to hold more, a little at a time.

I know its possible to draw through more than one *greal. But something that powerful?

 

[motblades]

I don't think "cinder" would be the appropriate description of what would happen to him if he tried that.  I would see that more as total disintegration.  As in his molecules scattered to the cosmos.  :)

 

Honestly though, Rand had a hard enough time just trying to use the Choden Kal.  Although, if I'm not mistaken, I believe he compared the flow of saidin from Callandor to the Choden Kal as a "drop of water from a vast sea" or something much like that. 

 

 

 

 

[Cockta]

So, Rand is back to the level he was at the start of the series, or what?

[mb]

I am not sure if Rand would ever attempt using the Choden Kal again since the female one becomes destroyed (melted) after the Cleansing.

And Callandor he given to Elza.

 

Though Rand theoretically might have enough strength to wield both at the same time.

 

[motblades]

So, Rand is back to the level he was at the start of the series, or what?

 

I'm at work right now and haven't reread the books in a while (although I'm about to graduate college in December and that will be the first thing I do  ;D) but I seem to recall that when Rand was cleansing saidin he could barely control the amount of saidin he was pulling through the Choden Kal.  I really don't think he would have the ability or state of mind to try to draw on another *greal. 

 

I can't remember everything at the moment because I've only read that chapter a couple of times.  I only reread the books right before a new book comes out, just to refresh the entire series in my mind.  In other words, I've read TEOTW 11 times, TGH 10 times, TDR 9 times. . .  Gah, I love RJ for writing these books. 

[helmethero]

He can definitely draw from an angreal and a sa'angreal at the same time.  That's how he beat Asmodean.  I don't think it's much of a stretch to see him drawing from two sa'angreal.

[motblades]

I'm not saying he can't draw on two sa'angreal, though.  I'm saying that I doubt he could draw on the Choden Kal and another sa'angreal.  I can definitely see him drawing on two Callandors or the like.  But I just can't see him drawing on a sa'angreal as powerful as the Choden Kal and any other *greal. 

[Tyrell]

I'm fairly certain he could use the Choedan Kal without the difficulties that were present at the Cleansing. At the Cleansing, not only did he have to channel every single drop of Saidin that it was possible to do with the powerful Sa'Angreal, but he had to deal with the taint too and force the whole heaving mass that was the surface of Saidin down his Saidar funnel and into Shadar Logoth.

 

This took hours.

 

I'm reasonably strong, I can lift quite a bit of weight. That doesn't mean that I'd care to hold something heavy above my head for hours on end, or that I'd even be able to do so. What Rand did at the cleansing was the equivelent of an iroman marathon event, compared to that any normal weaving, even with that amount of power, is nothing much. 

[Hybrid]

Not to mention he was weaving the flows of saidar as well through his link with Nynaeve.

[Luckers]

We don't really have enough information to say i think--but even if he alone cannot, all he needs is a circle with another man using Callandor--if a circle can draw on both Choedan Kal at the same time, then it can draw on the male Choedan Kal and Callandor.

 

And Callandor he given to Elza.

 

Cadsuane took Callandor at the end of the Cleansing, and as far as we know still has it. Elza never held it, she just controlled the circle that used it.

[vasu619]

But my understanding is:

Strength of 3 people in circle is less than, Strength of 1st person + strength of 2nd person + strength of 3rd person (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

So, using Callandor and Choedan Kal in a circle is not quite the same as Rand using both of them solo.

 

 

[Cockta]

But no one really answered my quetion here.

[mb]

But my understanding is:

Strength of 3 people in circle is less than, Strength of 1st person + strength of 2nd person + strength of 3rd person (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

My understanding is the the strength of linked people depends on who is directing the flows.  Sometimes it is greater than the sum and sometimes less.

 

[a pale tanned lover]

So, Rand is back to the level he was at the start of the series, or what?

 

Even without any angreal or sa'angreal he could never be back where he was at the beginning of the series since he has alot more knowledge, and knowledge is power.

[Luckers]

Strength of 3 people in circle is less than, Strength of 1st person + strength of 2nd person + strength of 3rd person (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

So, using Callandor and Choedan Kal in a circle is not quite the same as Rand using both of them solo.

 

Yes but by description using two *angreal at the same time creates two seperate flows of the power into you--the flow coming to you through *angreal one, and flow coming through *angreal two.

 

As such using them in a circle would grant more power than using them individual--which in the end would be just like having two seperate people use them--they arn't being added on.

 

My understanding is the the strength of linked people depends on who is directing the flows.  Sometimes it is greater than the sum and sometimes less.

 

No, linked people only ever contribute part of their strength, and the final product is always less than the sum of the strengths of its members. My guess based on description is its somewhere between an 85% and 95% contribution.

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Given the fact that Rand practically lost his sight while wielding the Choeden Kal, I see no possible way for him to wield both, though it is theoretically possible.

 

Also, there is no reason. The Choeden Kal is strong enough for any man. Any more...........

[motblades]

I agree with RAND.  It's what I was trying to say earlier.  Theorectically, yes.  Reasonably, no.

[Tyrell]

I refer to my earlier point. Rand wasn't just using the Cheoden Kal a little bit, he was using every single drop of power he could suck up with it for hours that doesn't really compare to any other situation in which channeling might occur.

[Charlz Guybon]

I wonder if any of the girls is going to use the tower sa'angreal wand.

[Ndshacker]

Its not very powerful. In comparison at least, Rand is strong and drwaing through Calandor he had a hundred times a normal man could draw. But while the Mat is bieng healed, Nynaeve says in wonder " I dom't think I could draw half of that." or something of the like. For arguments sake lets say that she could draw 25% of it, 12 women linked + greatest sangreal found for women = Nynaeve*4 ?

If Rand = Nynaeve

Well you get the point Its like a drop in the bucket to callandor and Callandor is a drop in the bucket to CHOEDEN KAL>

[Luckers]

Given the fact that Rand practically lost his sight while wielding the Choeden Kal, I see no possible way for him to wield both, though it is theoretically possible.

 

Also, there is no reason. The Choeden Kal is strong enough for any man. Any more...........

 

You are forgetting that the Choedan Kal are two seperate sa'angreal. Callandor would in no way provide him with the type of power that the female Choedan Kal gave him, thus functionally adding its power to the male Choedan Kal would not have as severe an effect as was experienced during the Cleansing.

 

Rand is strong and drwaing through Calandor he had a hundred times a normal man could draw.

 

What is your basis for that? A strong angreal does not even triple a channelers strength. I would guess that a strong sa'angreal like Callandor would perhaps increase a channelers strength tenfold.

 

But while the Mat is bieng healed, Nynaeve says in wonder " I dom't think I could draw half of that." or something of the like. For arguments sake lets say that she could draw 25% of it, 12 women linked + greatest sangreal found for women = Nynaeve*4 ?

 

Nynaeve was quite an ignorent woman at that stage. We know as a fact that she was flat out wrong--she was roughly the same strength as Siuan at that point (as stated by Moiraine). Siuan was a part of that circle, which means that even without the sa'angreal she could have barely been able to channel more than one twelth the amount that the circle held.

 

So, Nynaeve was so far in the realms of wrong that we cannot in any way trust her as an accurate judge of what that sa'angreal is capable of.

 

Furthermore Siuan may not have been  drawing fully--she states that she has to be careful about how much power she uses.

 

Of course that scene does not make sense for a number of reasons. For instance, why was a yellow not melding the flows--or for that matter involved at all. What precisely were they doing? It wasn't healing, not by any description of healing we have.

[Tyrell]

I would assume it was some spirit based weave akin to Severing or a sort of Anti-Bonding to remove the link between Mat and the dagger.

 

As far as Nynaeve's statement, it was true - she really couldn't draw half that much power. If I saw someone lift a bus and I exclaim that I couldn't lift half of that weight it doesn't mean that I think I could in fact lift anywhere near half of that weight. It's just y'know an expression.

[Arath Faringal]

I really don't think there would be a problem with drawing from multiple sa'angreal. I think that sa'angreal are really no different from angreal. They're simply the heavyweight version.  Probably took a lot longer to manufacture, but otherwise no different.

 

I do wonder if there's a limit to how many sa/angreal you can draw from at once.  13 maybe?

 

And as far as the linking goes ...

 

I know this can't be taken as cannon since we made it up for convenience, but this is how linking strength is calculated on the RP boards.  I think it works reasonably well.  This is based on a strength score system ranging from 1(Morgase)-50(Rand).  Decimals are rounded to the nearest whole number.

 

(Average Strength of the members of the circle) x (modifier)

 

The modifiers are set on a base 1.5 with 0.1 added for each channeler that is added to the circle. A circle of 2 channelers would have a modifier of 1.5, a circle of 3 channelers would have a modifier of 1.6, and so on.

 

For example, if Egwene (Strength 29), Logain (Strength 34) and Elayne (Strength 29) link, here is how to work out the overall strength of the circle:

 

Average Strength (92 / 3 = 31)

 

Multiply the result by the modifier for 3 channelers (31 x 1.6 = 50).

 

A circle of 13 Aes Sedai with a hypothetical average Strength of 28 (average strength for RP Aes Sedai). Using the appropriate modifier of 2.6 you would have the following result:

 

Average Strength (28) x modifier (2.6) = 73

 

It's not perfect, but it works pretty well.

[Ndshacker]

 

 

my basis for this is the fact that rand said while he drew through it, I dont have an exact quote, so forgive me, but it went like, A hundred men could not draw this much. Even if it is an exageration i doubt it is 10x.

 

 

[Tyrell]

This is based on a strength score system ranging from 1(Morgase)-50(Rand)

 

Logain (Strength 34)

 

Shouldn't Logain be somewhere in the region of 48-49?