Equal yet not

[Hybrid]

If you like others to do your dirty work, I'd make you a bigger man if you just didn't make fun of it then. There's plenty of reasons for Dreadlords 'gut-feeling', and none for you or Mr Ares to be assholes about it.

*facepalm*  That is entirely my point.  There are no reasons for a gut feeling unless you post them.  I could post with a gut feeling that LTT took over Rand's body and killed Asmodean.  And I'd be correctly ridiculed for it, since I had posted zero evidence and the theory runs contrary to many established facts in the book.  I could claim I have plenty of reasons to believe so, but since I haven't posted them, how can I be taken seriously?

[Mik]

My fault. It was still written before Mordin was added to the series.

No problem. And we don't know when Ishamaels mind was transmigrated exactly. My best educated guess is here;

The only good news I [the Amyrlin Seat] have heard is that the Blight has retreated for some reason. Two miles or more of green beyond the borderstones, without a hint of corruption or pestilence, all the way from Saldea to Shienar. The first time in memory it has done that. [TSR, Chapter 17 – Deceptions)

Coindidently, this is also the moment when we hear Taim has been 'freed'.

 

So Moridin/ Shaidar Haran might have been created when the BWB came out. Then again, I feel it's irrelevant; RJ knew exactly where the series was heading from the get go.

 

I'm not saying the theory might not work... however you are using the wrong references.

Why? I'm not just saying Moridin and Shaidar Haran are one creature. I'm actually saying since Elan Morin became Ishamael, he has always had a link with Myrddraal. It's what makes him Nae'Blis.

 

The references work for both Ishy and Moridin. When Ishy died, Shai'tan just made the link differently.

 

The best chance you have for it to work is if going into and out of vacules they swap; kind of like how slayer changes when he enters or exits TAR. There is a scene where SH slams Modg into the vacule wall and enters a room to find Mordin in teh new room there. Of course the only reason that doesn't disprove the theory is Modg kept her eyes closed and only opened them when Moridin said she could.

 

It is possible... but it isn't provable. I wouldn't be shocked if it actually works like that, however it is just as likely, if not moreso, that Mordin is just Mordin. The final price for using the true power are the fire eyes not a blank face.

Heyyyy! Now you're talking dude. This is the first time I've seen someone actually considering the possibility and brainstorming along. That in itself, put a smile to my face just now.  :D

I actually like the concept you come up with. I never thought of that. I'm just gonna give it a few days to sink in...

 

And about the price of the True Power... let's just say we disagree there; the price is much, much higher.

 

I'm afraid I can only answer questions 2 and 5 ^_^, (and 3 with a bit of speculation, and an improbable answer)

2. Moridin also happens to be able to channel saidin, and he probably saw Sammael holding it.

Human males cannot see another human male holding the source. They can sense it in another male (even when not holding it) when they are close. They sense a source of force and menace. So, if the Watcher was Moridin, he had to be very close to Sammeal & Graendal to sense it. But he couldn't be that close if he was following Graendal by her 'easy to follow red dress'....

The distance between the Watcher & our two sceeming Forsaken was fairly big; just close enough to follow in a forrest.

 

Nice try, but no cigar I think.

 

3. A ward against eavesdropping? (I told you it was improbable):P

A possibility, but not mentioned at all.

Besides, a ward against eavesdropping prevents listening in with the Power. It doesn't stop sound, does it?

If we just stick to the text, it says the Watcher 'made no sound'. It doesn't suggest he made sound and blocked it.

So how can a human being not make any sound in a forest?

 

5. I believe that when you skim from one place to another, you step out of the pattern.

I doubt that. How could Rand see Asmo outside the Pattern? I've read stuff about skimming taking place in TAR, wich is part of reality. If you could proof skimming takes place outside the Pattern, I'd settle for that.

 

... it's no surprise to me that myrdraal have names in the trolloc tongue.

That's nice. It's not supposed to be a surprise. I mean, it's in the BWB. What's surprising is that we've seen loads of Myrddraal. We've seen them talk. They don't even talk to eachother. We never saw another name then "Ba'alzamon". That in itself is the surprise.

 

Maybe the trollocs have names for other forsaken as well? We don't know do we?

We've never ever seen it mentioned, but the question is valid. Why would Trollocs have a name for Ishamael when we've never ever heard a name mentioned for any other Forsaken..? And don't say "Trolloc Wars" (a common mistake), because Rosels document stems from right after the Breaking.

 

But thinking this is as baseless as suggesting the below:

Could Ba'alzamon actually be the name Trollocs were given for Shaidar Haran version 0.5?

Is it?

1. Trollocs give Myrddraal a Trolloc name.

2. We only know of one Trolloc name for anybody; "Ba'alzamon".

3. The name Ba'alzamon is a name from before the Breaking of the World.

4. No other Forsaken has a Trolloc name. What sets Ishamael apart from them, since before the Breaking?

5. RJ mentioned there was a "Shaidar Haran 0.5" in relation to a chapter in TGH. (pre-Moridin)

 

I think it adds up that Ba'alzamon is a name for a Myrddraal...

...Or someone who gave himself so utterly to Shai'tan to become linked to Myrdraal.

Could this be what it means to be Nae'Blis? To be half a step below Shai'tan by willingly sacrificing so much of your being to become His "Hand" this side of Creation?

That would make anyone "The Heart of the Dark" in my book.

That would make anyone 'more then half-mad and less then half-human' as so many Chosen think about Ishamael...or Moridin.

That would stop me from naming that being 'a man'.

 

Capiche?

 

 

[Mik]

Sorry Swigaro, I missed this when wading through replies.

 

I asked for a decent explanation for events in chapter 20, but you are unwilling to adress them;

1. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see the link dissolve between Sammael & Graendal?

2. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see Sammael still held on to the Power?

3. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't either Sammael or Graendal hear him with enhanced hearing by holding on to the source?

4. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't he have any trouble moving (-ghosted, as it was literally called-) through the trees, it was clearly very hard, judging from Sammaels & Graendals stumbling and sound they made when comming to the clearing?

5. If the Watcher is Moridin, how come he could step outside the Pattern?

1.  Though Moridin uses the TP exclusively, he can, so far as we know still channel Saidin. Men who can channel can sense when a man is holding Sadin.  Men who can channel can sense when women are holding Saidar.

 

2.  See 1.

Correct, if they are close to the channeler.

But... The Watcher was watching from far off; he was following the pair of Forsaken by Graendals red dress.

And on top of that, there are a lot of examples in the book where a male human channeler (or female) watches linked couples. Nowhere do they even see the link. In fact, it shows us clearly that they can't see the link. If you go back a few pages in this thread, you can see I quoted them all. (For instance, Demandred PoV - WH, Chapter 35 - With the Choedan Kal)

Those quotes also show us that for one male channeler to sense another holding the source, you have to be so close, that you can attack them with your bare hands. (Eben PoV - WH, Chapter 35 - With the Choedan Kal)

Your explanation does not explain how the Watcher could 'sense' the link disolve, but still recognise Sammael holding on to the source from a distance.

 

3.  Is it unrealistic to believe that he could have channeled the TP (undetectable by any other channeler) to mask his presence and any sound he might make?  Is it not also stated that he is wearing a Fancloth suit?  That would only make him harder to see.

Possible...maybe. We've never seen it before. It's not suggested in any shape or form by the text. So unrealistic, you ask? I'd have to say yes. He made no sound as he ghosted through the trees.

Masking his presence & a fancloth suit? Overkill? Perhaps he didn't need to use True Power, because he knew he wouldn't make a sounds and because he knew he was invisible due to the fancloth?..

 

4.  See 3.

What? True Power to keep noise down will keep him on his feet? It will make the Watchers movement through a forest where others stumble and have to work their way through branches, somehow easy? I think you mistook my question.

 

5.  Read the description on Vacuoles in the BWB.  They exist outside the pattern.  Who have we seen use a Vacuole?  Moridin.  Stepping outside the pattern = weaving a gateway to a Vacuole.

First part, I agree. Second part.. ewww..big mistake: We've only seen Shaidar Haran in a vacuole of the two.. atleast once (ACoS, Chapter 25 - Mindtrap), but I think even twice. (LoC, Prologue - The First Message).

It's plausible the Watcher travelled to a vacuole. Who have we seen in those? :)

 

As far as the description of him seeing the link dissolve, and that Sammael still held the power, I find it far more likely that it is a product of holding the TP.  Men and women can weild it, with the blessing of the DO, though its use can't be sensed by either.  IMO the difference in description if far more likely to be a result of use of the TP than that the watcher is anyone except Moridin.

Pure speculation, wich is fine. But don't hold it against me for disagreeing.

 

Cool answers though.

Cheers,

Mik

[vasu619]

I'm afraid I can only answer questions 2 and 5 ^_^, (and 3 with a bit of speculation, and an improbable answer)

2. Moridin also happens to be able to channel saidin, and he probably saw Sammael holding it.

Human males cannot see another human male holding the source. They can sense it in another male (even when not holding it) when they are close. They sense a source of force and menace. So, if the Watcher was Moridin, he had to be very close to Sammeal & Graendal to sense it. But he couldn't be that close if he was following Graendal by her 'easy to follow red dress'....

The distance between the Watcher & our two sceeming Forsaken was fairly big; just close enough to follow in a forrest.

 

Nice try, but no cigar I think.

 

Ter'angreal? ;P

3. A ward against eavesdropping? (I told you it was improbable):P

A possibility, but not mentioned at all.

Besides, a ward against eavesdropping prevents listening in with the Power. It doesn't stop sound, does it?

If we just stick to the text, it says the Watcher 'made no sound'. It doesn't suggest he made sound and blocked it.

So how can a human being not make any sound in a forest?

 

For the first two lines of your reply, what does a ward do, if not block sound? Try reading the part in KoD when Narishma comes to the rebel Aes Sedai. The Hall wards itself, and suddenly the sisters can't here what was going on.

 

I can't disagree with the "Watcher made no sound" bit though. It's still a possibility that he masked his sound though.

 

5. I believe that when you skim from one place to another, you step out of the pattern.

I doubt that. How could Rand see Asmo outside the Pattern? I've read stuff about skimming taking place in TAR, wich is part of reality. If you could proof skimming takes place outside the Pattern, I'd settle for that.

 

I thought that the parallel worlds of WOT were t "Mirrors of the Pattern" as it were, but they all shared the same dreamworld, TAR. So it's outside "our" pattern, on the border between the "mirrors" of the pattern.

 

... it's no surprise to me that myrdraal have names in the trolloc tongue.

That's nice. It's not supposed to be a surprise. I mean, it's in the BWB. What's surprising is that we've seen loads of Myrddraal. We've seen them talk. They don't even talk to eachother. We never saw another name then "Ba'alzamon". That in itself is the surprise.

 

We know the trolloc tongue isn't a bunch of guttural grunting. We know it's a coherent language. They have words for things (like "The Dying Ground"). It's no surpirse. If a trolloc has a name, why can't a myrdraal? (Narg?)

Maybe the trollocs have names for other forsaken as well? We don't know do we?

We've never ever seen it mentioned, but the question is valid. Why would Trollocs have a name for Ishamael when we've never ever heard a name mentioned for any other Forsaken..? And don't say "Trolloc Wars" (a common mistake), because Rosels document stems from right after the Breaking.

 

I think they had a name for Lanfear as well? In TGH when they scribble some prophecy? I'm not sure.

But thinking this is as baseless as suggesting the below:

Could Ba'alzamon actually be the name Trollocs were given for Shaidar Haran version 0.5?

Is it?

1. Trollocs give Myrddraal a Trolloc name.

2. We only know of one Trolloc name for anybody; "Ba'alzamon".

3. The name Ba'alzamon is a name from before the Breaking of the World.

4. No other Forsaken has a Trolloc name. What sets Ishamael apart from them, since before the Breaking?

5. RJ mentioned there was a "Shaidar Haran 0.5" in relation to a chapter in TGH. (pre-Moridin)

 

1. Because they both speak the same tongue.

2. We know of names for places. Like the Aiel Waste.

3. Okay.

4. Refer above (before quote)

5. And also pre-Ishamael death.

 

 

[Mik]

Ter'angreal? ;P

Guesswork?  ;)

We never saw a ter'angreal with this function. We never saw Ishamael or Moridin use a ter'angreal (from the top of my head, correct if wrong). Chapter 20 doesn't suggest the Watcher uses one.

*buzzer*

 

For the first two lines of your reply, what does a ward do, if not block sound? Try reading the part in KoD when Narishma comes to the rebel Aes Sedai. The Hall wards itself, and suddenly the sisters can't here what was going on.

*closes the trap*

Yesss, but you see, the problem is that a ward works both ways. Sound doesn't come in either. How would the Watcher hear the conversation, if we accept he did ward himself with a moving True Power ward somehow...? :P

 

I can't disagree with the "Watcher made no sound" bit though. It's still a possibility that he masked his sound though.

It fits perfectly with what we've seen a myrdraal on a horse doing in TEoTW, wouldn't you agree? Moving soundlesly in the Westwood.

 

I thought that the parallel worlds of WOT were t "Mirrors of the Pattern" as it were, but they all shared the same dreamworld, TAR. So it's outside "our" pattern, on the border between the "mirrors" of the pattern.

The Pattern of the Ages is said to encompass all the worlds. I think you are mistaking the title of a book on Portal Stones ("Mirrors of the Wheel", somehwre in TGH) with how all worlds are part of Creation, as is TAR between and around those worlds. Verin has a nice explenation in Chapter 21 of TDR.

 

It's no surpirse. If a trolloc has a name, why can't a myrdraal? (Narg?)

I'm not saying Myrddraal can't have names (even though I do find it odd). I'm just saying that we never ever see one name being mentioned. Then why did RJ mention Myrddraal do have Trolloc names...? The surprising part is mentioning Myrddraal have a Trolloc name...and then not using it anywhere. The only Trolloc name we are given (ok..besides Narg) is Ba'alzamon. I just said that makes you think, doesn't it?

Could that be a Trolloc name for a Myrddraal? Especially given the rest of my musings,...

 

Maybe the trollocs have names for other forsaken as well? We don't know do we?

We've never ever seen it mentioned, but the question is valid. Why would Trollocs have a name for Ishamael when we've never ever heard a name mentioned for any other Forsaken..? And don't say "Trolloc Wars" (a common mistake), because Rosels document stems from right after the Breaking.

I think they had a name for Lanfear as well? In TGH when they scribble some prophecy? I'm not sure.

She was mentioned as "the Daughter of the Night" in that dark prophecy IIRC. She named herself. It's never mentioned as a Trolloc name.

The only names I can come up with for Lanny is "Moonhunter", but that's her Wolf-given name.

 

But thinking this is as baseless as suggesting the below:

Could Ba'alzamon actually be the name Trollocs were given for Shaidar Haran version 0.5?

Is it?

1. Trollocs give Myrddraal a Trolloc name.

2. We only know of one Trolloc name for anybody; "Ba'alzamon".

3. The name Ba'alzamon is a name from before the Breaking of the World.

4. No other Forsaken has a Trolloc name. What sets Ishamael apart from them, since before the Breaking?

5. RJ mentioned there was a "Shaidar Haran 0.5" in relation to a chapter in TGH. (pre-Moridin)

 

1. Because they both speak the same tongue.

No they don't; Trollocs have a harsh gutteral language humans can't understand (there are several quotes if you want proof). Myrddraal speek as humans do, with a voice like dead, crumbling stuff.

But. that's. not. the. point! It's irrelevant if one speaks chinese and the other would speak martian.

Take a step back for a sec and let it sink in;

Trollocs name Myrddraal, yet we never see any. Trollocs have a name for Ishamael, though; Ba'alzamon.

Could. it. be. a. name. for. a. Myrddraal?

 

2. We know of names for places. Like the Aiel Waste.

How is that relevant in this case? It's about Trolloc names for Myrddraal.

[Fryn]

1. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see the link dissolve between Sammael & Graendal?

2. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see Sammael still held on to the Power?

3. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't either Sammael or Graendal hear him with enhanced hearing by holding on to the source?

4. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't he have any trouble moving (-ghosted, as it was literally called-) through the trees, it was clearly very hard, judging from Sammaels & Graendals stumbling and sound they made when comming to the clearing?

5. If the Watcher is Moridin, how come he could step outside the Pattern?

 

1. All of a sudden his skin would no longer tingle if the link was dropped because it would mean Grandael would no longer be holding the source. No more tingling... no more link.

2.Mordin can use saidin so he can tell when another man is holding the source. THe tingling stopped, but Sammael was still holding the source.

3. When using the TP only the user can detect it. Mordin is using a fancloth skulkers mask. He mentions he has expertise in areas Sammael doesn't... like sneaking around. Added to that another forsaken used the TP to sneak up on others before and mentioned basically the same thing... that no one could detect them.

4. Fancloth Skulkers mask. Also he was likely using the TP to move around quietly, which is why there was a constant stream of black flecks in his eyes

5. Because he can ender a vacule

 

Diect words: He had let the link between them dissolve, too.. but the man did hold saidin.

Note it does not refer to him seeing this happen, just that he knew it had happened. Any male channeler would be able to notice when this occured. As stated above of why any male channeler would know this happened

 

They had no idea. The true power, drawn directly from the great lord, could neither be seen nor detected except by who weilded it.

He was using the TP to hide himself and/or move... why at all would you think they would be able to see or hear him?

 

Swathed in fancloth except for his eyes, he had no worry that he would be seen. Over the years he had learned expertise in many areas Sammael scorned. Here is the answer you are asking for directly from Mordin. All that was visible was his eyes, and he has skill in moving around quietly; Sammael does not.

 

The prickling vannished from the watchers skin as she released saidar as well. This is how he knew the link was dissolved and he also knew when she grabbed the source again.

 

behind his fancloth skulker's mask. He was using fancloth to blend into the background, as well as knowledge to move around and the TP.

 

He did the same thing to Avi. Avi was holding the power and saw a dark shape against the sun. However when she looked again she could not see him at all, even though she was trying. In fact we learn that he was quite close, and an Aiel (great at noticing small things) holding saidar could not find him when he was close.

 

Something made her look higher, to the domes and towers.... on one, very high, was a black shape haloed by a sharp nimbusfrom the sun behind. A man - fancloth blending with the surroundings, but perhaps not the sun?

 

The walk up on the tower stood empty. He could be anywhere.

 

"Perhaps I should not have taken the risk... with that man watching me, I could not think clearly, and when he disappeared..."

 

Avi kept looking, but did not find him again.

 

From behind a sceen of white wrought iron, Mordin watched the last of the horses vanish through the gateway... He was about to turn awaywhen the outlines of the gateways uddenly began to flex and tremble.

 

Mordin was close enough that he could see the gateway and people moving through it, yet avi could not spot him even though she was actively looking. Avi has a great skill at spotting hiden things being a former maiden. However you somehow expect Sammael and grand could find him when not looking, and you are trying to use that as proof? As Mordin states he has skills and expertise that other forsaken do not have. One of those is hiding and observing.

 

Something made her look higher, to the domes and towers

[Mik]

1. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see the link dissolve between Sammael & Graendal?

2. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see Sammael still held on to the Power?

3. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't either Sammael or Graendal hear him with enhanced hearing by holding on to the source?

4. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't he have any trouble moving (-ghosted, as it was literally called-) through the trees, it was clearly very hard, judging from Sammaels & Graendals stumbling and sound they made when comming to the clearing?

5. If the Watcher is Moridin, how come he could step outside the Pattern?

1. All of a sudden his skin would no longer tingle if the link was dropped because it would mean Grandael would no longer be holding the source. No more tingling... no more link.

First off, the Watcher is too far off to feel the tingling sensation: he’s following Sammael & Graendal by Graendal’s red dress, which was ‘easy to follow’.

But let’s assume for a minute the Watcher could feel the tingling sensation near a female channeler;

In your suggestion, it’s pivotal that Graendal is no longer holding the source or channeling actively. But the problem there is this; “Graendal maintained the Mask of Mirrors that hid her true form”.

On top of that, the Watcher can specifically tell the difference between the circle and the two of them separately holding the source, since he muses how wise it was of Sammael to let the link dissolve, but also states that Sammael is aware of the danger [of Graendal holding Saidar and having control over it] by hanging on to Saidin. How can he tell the difference?

 

Your explanation doesn’t suffice, because Graendal maintains the MoM, even if we disregard  the distance between the Watcher & our deadly duo.

 

2.Mordin can use saidin so he can tell when another man is holding the source. The tingling stopped, but Sammael was still holding the source.

See the reasoning above.

But I’d like to add, that for one human male channeler to be aware of another male channeler holding the source, they would have to be standing together, almost wihin arms reach (as per examples like Eben at the Cleansing)

The Watcher would almost need to be on top of Sammael and not far off, as was written.

 

Again, it doesn’t add up.

 

3. When using the TP only the user can detect it. Mordin is using a fancloth skulkers mask. He mentions he has expertise in areas Sammael doesn't... like sneaking around. Added to that another forsaken used the TP to sneak up on others before and mentioned basically the same thing... that no one could detect them.

That only the user can detect the TP is irrelevant; I’m talking about making no sound in a forest here, not power use, or blocking all sound.

And about sneaking around soundlessly in a forest, not even Lan can do it. Are you suggesting the Watcher has warder like skills?

 

Could you quote that last bit you’re talking about, because I’m sure you are misinterpreting that Forsaken referring to sound in relation to what was actually meant by ‘not being able to be detected’.

 

4. Fancloth Skulkers mask. Also he was likely using the TP to move around quietly, which is why there was a constant stream of black flecks in his eyes

If you’re suggesting the Watcher used to (True) Power to somehow have himself and his surroundings produce no sound while being able to hear his surroundings, I’m going to have to say it’s not suggested by the text and we’ve never seen it before.

We’ve seen wards yes, but those block sound both ways, so the Watcher couldn’t have heard anything then. Besides, I don’t think we’ve seen those move.

 

5. Because he can ender a vacule

That’s an option, yes. And a nice one.

 

Diect words: He had let the link between them dissolve, too.. but the man did hold saidin.

Note it does not refer to him seeing this happen, just that he knew it had happened. Any male channeler would be able to notice when this occured. As stated above of why any male channeler would know this happened

You’re wrong here. Male channelers have to be real close to eachother to sense the other holding the source. Are you suggesting the Watcher stood right next to Sammael & Graendal.

 

Swathed in fancloth except for his eyes, he had no worry that he would be seen. Over the years he had learned expertise in many areas Sammael scorned. Here is the answer you are asking for directly from Mordin. All that was visible was his eyes, and he has skill in moving around quietly; Sammael does not.

Sammael & Graendal are holding the source; their hearing is probably better then that of an owl! Moridin is the Warder-Supreme or something?

 

The prickling vannished from the watchers skin as she released saidar as well. This is how he knew the link was dissolved and he also knew when she grabbed the source again.

I’ve already tackled the link, you’re mistakenly assuming Graendal did not hold on to the source. She was even channeling to maintain her MoM.

You know, the key-words in that quote are “AS WELL”. Those two words suggest it happened at the same time, but that the prickling & the release of Saidar happened at the same time, without having a direct relationship. One was not the concequence of the other, but they happened at the same time. Think about that for a sec..

 

And then go back to my example of the three Myrddraal feeling Egwene channel a hair-thin flow of Earth....

 

behind his fancloth skulker's mask. He was using fancloth to blend into the background, as well as knowledge to move around and the TP.

 

He did the same thing to Avi. Avi was holding the power and saw a dark shape against the sun. However when she looked again she could not see him at all, even though she was trying. In fact we learn that he was quite close, and an Aiel (great at noticing small things) holding saidar could not find him when he was close.

 

Something made her look higher, to the domes and towers.... on one, very high, was a black shape haloed by a sharp nimbusfrom the sun behind. A man - fancloth blending with the surroundings, but perhaps not the sun?

 

The walk up on the tower stood empty. He could be anywhere.

 

"Perhaps I should not have taken the risk... with that man watching me, I could not think clearly, and when he disappeared..."

 

Avi kept looking, but did not find him again.

 

From behind a sceen of white wrought iron, Mordin watched the last of the horses vanish through the gateway... He was about to turn awaywhen the outlines of the gateways uddenly began to flex and tremble.

 

Mordin was close enough that he could see the gateway and people moving through it, yet avi could not spot him even though she was actively looking. Avi has a great skill at spotting hiden things being a former maiden. However you somehow expect Sammael and grand could find him when not looking, and you are trying to use that as proof? As Mordin states he has skills and expertise that other forsaken do not have. One of those is hiding and observing.

 

Something made her look higher, to the domes and towers

You are mistaking Moridin for the Gholam. Sorry. Your whole argument is flawed to begin with.

 

 

 

See? It's not all that logical the Watcher is Moridin... :)

In fact, I'd say it's more likely it's Shaidar Haran if you dig a little deeper.

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

 

 

 

[Fryn]

1. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see the link dissolve between Sammael & Graendal?

2. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see Sammael still held on to the Power?

3. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't either Sammael or Graendal hear him with enhanced hearing by holding on to the source?

4. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't he have any trouble moving (-ghosted, as it was literally called-) through the trees, it was clearly very hard, judging from Sammaels & Graendals stumbling and sound they made when comming to the clearing?

5. If the Watcher is Moridin, how come he could step outside the Pattern?

1. All of a sudden his skin would no longer tingle if the link was dropped because it would mean Grandael would no longer be holding the source. No more tingling... no more link.

First off, the Watcher is too far off to feel the tingling sensation: he’s following Sammael & Graendal by Graendal’s red dress, which was ‘easy to follow’.

But let’s assume for a minute the Watcher could feel the tingling sensation near a female channeler;

In your suggestion, it’s pivotal that Graendal is no longer holding the source or channeling actively. But the problem there is this; “Graendal maintained the Mask of Mirrors that hid her true form”.

 

Incorrect. The MoM weave was tied off. You know this is the case because Sammael was leading the circle. Unless sammael wove MoM on grandael it would of dissolved once she passed control of the circle to Sammael. You can however tie off weaves like this and you see others do this all the time. MoM does not require active channeling so your point is null and void here.

 

On top of that, the Watcher can specifically tell the difference between the circle and the two of them separately holding the source, since he muses how wise it was of Sammael to let the link dissolve, but also states that Sammael is aware of the danger [of Graendal holding Saidar and having control over it] by hanging on to Saidin. How can he tell the difference?

 

Your explanation doesn’t suffice, because Graendal maintains the MoM, even if we disregard  the distance between the Watcher & our deadly duo.

 

As posted above my explanation works quite well

 

2.Mordin can use saidin so he can tell when another man is holding the source. The tingling stopped, but Sammael was still holding the source.

See the reasoning above.

But I’d like to add, that for one human male channeler to be aware of another male channeler holding the source, they would have to be standing together, almost wihin arms reach (as per examples like Eben at the Cleansing)

The Watcher would almost need to be on top of Sammael and not far off, as was written.

 

Again, it doesn’t add up.

 

Actually they don't have to be that close to tell a man is holding saidin. There are plenty of references.

 

3. When using the TP only the user can detect it. Mordin is using a fancloth skulkers mask. He mentions he has expertise in areas Sammael doesn't... like sneaking around. Added to that another forsaken used the TP to sneak up on others before and mentioned basically the same thing... that no one could detect them.

That only the user can detect the TP is irrelevant; I’m talking about making no sound in a forest here, not power use, or blocking all sound.

And about sneaking around soundlessly in a forest, not even Lan can do it. Are you suggesting the Watcher has warder like skills?

 

Could you quote that last bit you’re talking about, because I’m sure you are misinterpreting that Forsaken referring to sound in relation to what was actually meant by ‘not being able to be detected’.

 

I can't find the other quote at the moment. Yes I am implying that while using the TP Mordin has skills that not even Lan has... Mordin says it is a specialty of his (he says he has no fear others will see him, and he used the TP to float around soundlessly, appearing to float, back when he had fire eyes and rand thought he was the DO). And we have other examples of him avoiding notice of those that can detect warders easily. We know that Mordin was using the TP and the only person with lots of knowledge about what it can do is ishy. If Ishy can use it to move soundlessly it is easily plausible given the other examples we have seen. There were constant streams of black specs moving faster and faster throughout teh scene so he was using it constantly. Using it to move soundlessly isn't out of the question given that fancloth would make him invisible with enough skill in moving.

 

As for a plausible way. What about a ward that was only around his lower body. No sound would escape when he moved, and sound could still reach him. Nothing says a ward would have to cover his entire body. Personally I don't think he did this, but that is one way a ward would work and get around your assumption that sound would not be able to get back to teh user.

 

4. Fancloth Skulkers mask. Also he was likely using the TP to move around quietly, which is why there was a constant stream of black flecks in his eyes

If you’re suggesting the Watcher used to (True) Power to somehow have himself and his surroundings produce no sound while being able to hear his surroundings, I’m going to have to say it’s not suggested by the text and we’ve never seen it before.

We’ve seen wards yes, but those block sound both ways, so the Watcher couldn’t have heard anything then. Besides, I don’t think we’ve seen those move.

 

What else was Moridin doing that required a constant stream of TP to be used? THere are multiple references to its use and the flecks. It didn't say what he was doing with teh power, but it did say he ghosted around, /shrug

 

5. Because he can ender a vacule

That’s an option, yes. And a nice one.

 

Diect words: He had let the link between them dissolve, too.. but the man did hold saidin.

Note it does not refer to him seeing this happen, just that he knew it had happened. Any male channeler would be able to notice when this occured. As stated above of why any male channeler would know this happened

 

You’re wrong here. Male channelers have to be real close to eachother to sense the other holding the source. Are you suggesting the Watcher stood right next to Sammael & Graendal.

 

Nope, they have to be close to know how much Saidin they are holding, not that they are holding the source. The more that is being used or held the less close they have to be. This is why the CK acted like a beacon. If it is as you said none of the male channelers would of felt teh cleansing, when there is ample proof that every male channeler felt it

 

Swathed in fancloth except for his eyes, he had no worry that he would be seen. Over the years he had learned expertise in many areas Sammael scorned. Here is the answer you are asking for directly from Mordin. All that was visible was his eyes, and he has skill in moving around quietly; Sammael does not.

 

Sammael & Graendal are holding the source; their hearing is probably better then that of an owl! Moridin is the Warder-Supreme or something?

 

Asked and answered, and quoted directly from the text. Mordin has expertise in things Sammael despised. Which is observing and sneaking around. Yes I think Mordin can sneak around better than warders, and he has proven it in the series several times. He hid in view of Avi who was holding the power. I do not see Lan being able to hide from Avi however. This is WoT warders we are talking about, not strider from LoTR. Lan also does not have access to a suit of fancloth or the TP. He has access to his warder clock only. Fancloth is similar but better

 

The prickling vannished from the watchers skin as she released saidar as well. This is how he knew the link was dissolved and he also knew when she grabbed the source again.

 

I’ve already tackled the link, you’re mistakenly assuming Graendal did not hold on to the source. She was even channeling to maintain her MoM.

You know, the key-words in that quote are “AS WELL”. Those two words suggest it happened at the same time, but that the prickling & the release of Saidar happened at the same time, without having a direct relationship. Think about that for a sec..

 

Already explained why you were wrong. You forgot that weaves could be tied off. In fact for Grandael to let MoM fade she had to take the power again to untie the weave. Incorrect don't miss quote my quote. a few sentenses prior Mordin mentions grand taking the source back up and the tingling. I didn't post it because it was not relevant. There was a long period where Grandael did not hold teh source. If you don't believe me read the 4 - 5 section with the watcher again.

 

behind his fancloth skulker's mask. He was using fancloth to blend into the background, as well as knowledge to move around and the TP.

 

He did the same thing to Avi. Avi was holding the power and saw a dark shape against the sun. However when she looked again she could not see him at all, even though she was trying. In fact we learn that he was quite close, and an Aiel (great at noticing small things) holding saidar could not find him when he was close.

 

Something made her look higher, to the domes and towers.... on one, very high, was a black shape haloed by a sharp nimbusfrom the sun behind. A man - fancloth blending with the surroundings, but perhaps not the sun?

 

The walk up on the tower stood empty. He could be anywhere.

 

"Perhaps I should not have taken the risk... with that man watching me, I could not think clearly, and when he disappeared..."

 

Avi kept looking, but did not find him again.

 

From behind a sceen of white wrought iron, Mordin watched the last of the horses vanish through the gateway... He was about to turn awaywhen the outlines of the gateways uddenly began to flex and tremble.

 

Mordin was close enough that he could see the gateway and people moving through it, yet avi could not spot him even though she was actively looking. Avi has a great skill at spotting hiden things being a former maiden. However you somehow expect Sammael and grand could find him when not looking, and you are trying to use that as proof? As Mordin states he has skills and expertise that other forsaken do not have. One of those is hiding and observing.

 

 

You are mistaking Moridin for the Gholam. Sorry. Your whole argument is flawed to begin with.

 

No I am not. Reread it again. It was Mordin. The gholam was no where near the point. You see the gholam's pov later because he followed the use of the power. He did not see them leave.

 

See? It's not all that logical the Watcher is Moridin... :)

In fact, I'd say it's more likely it's Shaidar Haran if you dig a little deeper.

 

Nah you are grasping at straws. Thin straws at that. He talks about intimate knowledge of other chosen, and he talks about becoming Nae'blis, which is a title for chosen. SH is not a chosen... he is something entirely different. I doubt he cares who is Nae'blis

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

 

 

 

[vasu619]

Ter'angreal? ;P

Guesswork?  ;)

We never saw a ter'angreal with this function. We never saw Ishamael or Moridin use a ter'angreal (from the top of my head, correct if wrong). Chapter 20 doesn't suggest the Watcher uses one.

*buzzer*

 

Yup, guesswork :D. Point conceded.

For the first two lines of your reply, what does a ward do, if not block sound? Try reading the part in KoD when Narishma comes to the rebel Aes Sedai. The Hall wards itself, and suddenly the sisters can't here what was going on.

*closes the trap*

Yesss, but you see, the problem is that a ward works both ways. Sound doesn't come in either. How would the Watcher hear the conversation, if we accept he did ward himself with a moving True Power ward somehow...? :P

 

*gets caught*

 

Point also conceded, though Fryn seems to have dealt with it below.

I can't disagree with the "Watcher made no sound" bit though. It's still a possibility that he masked his sound though.

It fits perfectly with what we've seen a myrdraal on a horse doing in TEoTW, wouldn't you agree? Moving soundlesly in the Westwood.

 

Also dealt with.

 

I thought that the parallel worlds of WOT were t "Mirrors of the Pattern" as it were, but they all shared the same dreamworld, TAR. So it's outside "our" pattern, on the border between the "mirrors" of the pattern.

The Pattern of the Ages is said to encompass all the worlds. I think you are mistaking the title of a book on Portal Stones ("Mirrors of the Wheel", somehwre in TGH) with how all worlds are part of Creation, as is TAR between and around those worlds. Verin has a nice explenation in Chapter 21 of TDR.

 

Yeah the Pattern of Ages, or the Agelace does encompass all ages, but the pattern for an individual age does not.

 

It's no surpirse. If a trolloc has a name, why can't a myrdraal? (Narg?)

I'm not saying Myrddraal can't have names (even though I do find it odd). I'm just saying that we never ever see one name being mentioned. Then why did RJ mention Myrddraal do have Trolloc names...? The surprising part is mentioning Myrddraal have a Trolloc name...and then not using it anywhere. The only Trolloc name we are given (ok..besides Narg) is Ba'alzamon. I just said that makes you think, doesn't it?

Could that be a Trolloc name for a Myrddraal? Especially given the rest of my musings,...

 

Yeah...but you seem to be reading too deep into this. I'll go into it deeper below.

 

 

Maybe the trollocs have names for other forsaken as well? We don't know do we?

We've never ever seen it mentioned, but the question is valid. Why would Trollocs have a name for Ishamael when we've never ever heard a name mentioned for any other Forsaken..? And don't say "Trolloc Wars" (a common mistake), because Rosels document stems from right after the Breaking.

I think they had a name for Lanfear as well? In TGH when they scribble some prophecy? I'm not sure.

She was mentioned as "the Daughter of the Night" in that dark prophecy IIRC. She named herself. It's never mentioned as a Trolloc name.

The only names I can come up with for Lanny is "Moonhunter", but that's her Wolf-given name.

 

*closes his own trap*

But what's to say Ishamael didn't name himself "Heart of the Dark" i.e Ba'alzamon? It's not as if Ba'alzamon is a direct translation of Ishamael or Elan Morin whatever. In the same way, Lanfear is called something in the Trolloc tongue which translates to "Daughter of the Night".

 

But thinking this is as baseless as suggesting the below:

Could Ba'alzamon actually be the name Trollocs were given for Shaidar Haran version 0.5?

Is it?

1. Trollocs give Myrddraal a Trolloc name.

2. We only know of one Trolloc name for anybody; "Ba'alzamon".

3. The name Ba'alzamon is a name from before the Breaking of the World.

4. No other Forsaken has a Trolloc name. What sets Ishamael apart from them, since before the Breaking?

5. RJ mentioned there was a "Shaidar Haran 0.5" in relation to a chapter in TGH. (pre-Moridin)

 

1. Because they both speak the same tongue.

No they don't; Trollocs have a harsh gutteral language humans can't understand (there are several quotes if you want proof). Myrddraal speek as humans do, with a voice like dead, crumbling stuff.

But. that's. not. the. point! It's irrelevant if one speaks chinese and the other would speak martian.

Take a step back for a sec and let it sink in;

Trollocs name Myrddraal, yet we never see any. Trollocs have a name for Ishamael, though; Ba'alzamon.

Could. it. be. a. name. for. a. Myrddraal?

 

Myrdraal speak as humans do, only to other humans, because the other humans quite obviously can't understand Trolloc tongue. We've never seen a nice little convo between two myrdraal or a myrdraal and a trolloc have we?

 

2. We know of names for places. Like the Aiel Waste.

How is that relevant in this case? It's about Trolloc names for Myrddraal.

 

Yeah, just poiting out that trollocs aren't all *grunt*grunt*grunt*snort*. LOL

[Mik]

Christ Fryn, we're making a mess with all the quotes on top of quotes added to quotes touched with a hint of blue!  :D

Ermm.. so, I'm going to break up your reply. If you miss anything, bring it back in your reply again, please (I do hope you're going to..reply that is)

 

1. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see the link dissolve between Sammael & Graendal?

Incorrect. The MoM weave was tied off. You know this is the case because Sammael was leading the circle. Unless sammael wove MoM on grandael it would of dissolved once she passed control of the circle to Sammael. You can however tie off weaves like this and you see others do this all the time. MoM does not require active channeling so your point is null and void here.

*thinks* *thinks about it some more*

You know what, I think you've got a point here. It does make the most sense.

She made her own MoM, tied of the weave & linked with Sammael. Sammeal dropped link & Graendals MoM stayed in place.

I guess 'maintaining her MoM' didn't mean that she held it in place actively, just that she let it exist.

I agree with you here; point conceded.

 

Hold your horses though!  ;) I'm not saying I agree with your statement that Graendal did not hold on to the Source though, as I'll explain in the next few lines. Just that I agree with you that Graendal tied of the MoM weave (before linking with Sammy). Nice one.

 

In your earlier suggestion (about the tingling sensation that stopped), it’s still pivotal that Graendal is no longer holding the source or channeling actively. So, I can't prove she was actively channeling, but the Watchers thoughts on Sammael letting the link dissolve proves Graendal was a direct threat to Sammy's health.

 

It's a point you left unanswered & stepped across too easy in your previous reply, because you focused solely on the MoM.

I'll quote the section I was referring to earlier:

 

He had let the link between them dissolve, too. The watcher wondered whether that was wise, under the circumstances. He had always wondered how much of Sammael’s vaunted bravery was really stupidity and blindness. But the man did hold saidin; perhaps [sammael] was not completely unaware of his danger.

There were no Aiel around. The only direct danger Sammael was not 'unaware' of, is Graendal holding the source. That's why the Watcher wonders it was wise to let the link dissolve 'under the ciscrumstances'.

Note, that the Watcher doesn't know yet, that Graendal is under the impression that Sammael told her he is to be named Nae'Blis.

So logically the Watcher would think that one pissod-off Graendal holding the Source is a danger.

 

The Watcher wouldn't have thought that otherwise. Or if you do think so, could you explain me why?

 

Next to that, you never adressed the point of distance between the Watcher and our deadly duo;

The Watcher was following them by 'the easy to follow red dress' (in wood-like area).

How far off is that do you recon? Could you post one example where a male channeler feels a female channeler just holding the source from a distance?

 

I still don't buy that the Watcher could sense the tingling sensation for just holding the source to begin with. And even if he did, the text more then suggests that Graendal held on to the Source after the link dissolved.

 

2. If the Watcher is Moridin, how did he see Sammael still held on to the Power?

Actually they don't have to be that close to tell a man is holding saidin. There are plenty of references.

Sorry, but there aren't. If you say there are, you're going to have to show me quotes, because I provided two very similar quotes to the situation the Watcher is in and those prove the opposite of what you say.

 

Here they are again:

 

Suddenly [Demandred] saw people off to the right ahead of him through the trees, and sheltered behind a rough gray trunk. A bald-headed old man [Damer Flinn] with a fringe of white hair was limping along between two women, one of them beautiful in a wild way, the other stunning. What were they doing in these woods? Who were they? Friends of al’Thor, or just people in the wrong place at the wrong time? He hesitated to kill them, whoever they were. Any use of the Power would warn al’Thor. He would have to wait until they passed. The old man’s head was turning as if he were searching for something among the trees, but Demandred doubted a fellow that decrepit could see very far.

Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha’man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring. He tried to launch his own attack and crush them, but the old man flung web after web at him without pause, and it was all he could do to fend them off. Those that struck trees enveloped them in flame or blew the trunks apart in splinters. (WH, Chapter 35 - With the Choedan Kal)

What did irk [Eben] was that he had not been given control of the circle. Of course, Jahar had not, …/ /…. Damer had been given control of that circle, though. (WH, Chapter 35 - With the Choedan Kal)

 

[This is the best comparison; a male channeler is watching a group of linked channelers led by a male -like ACOS chapter 20, under the exact same conditions-. Demandred however does not see any link. Neither does he sense the channeling ability, or even recognizes Flinn, Corele or Sarene as channelers, until Flinn starts his attack! Only after he is attacked by saidin, he concludes -and still does not see or feel- they must be an Asha’man linked with Aes Sedai.]

 

-----------------------------------

 

“I hadn’t meant to ride so far,” the woman [Aran’gar] said coming closer. “I see you’re all Aes Sedai. With a...groom? Do you know what all the commotion is about?”

Suddenly, Eben felt the blood drain from his face. What he felt was impossible! The green-eyed woman frowned in surprise, and he did the only thing that he could.

“She’s holding saidin!” he shouted, and threw himself at her as he felt Daigian draw deeply on the Power. (WH, Chapter 35 - With the Choedan Kal)

 

[Asan’gar -a male channeler in a female body- does not see the linking between male & female channelers. Neither does she feel the channeling ability in Eben untill Eben is close enough to throw himself at her. This is clear because she thinks Eben is a groom instead of an Asha’man until ‘she’ is close enough to feel saidin in Eben (the surprised frown) simultaneously with Eben feeling Asan’gar holding saidin]

 

So, untill you show me one or two quotes to match, I'll can't say you're right. In fact, I'd have to say you're wrong.

 

3. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't either Sammael or Graendal hear him with enhanced hearing by holding on to the source?

I can't find the other quote at the moment. Yes I am implying that while using the TP Mordin has skills that not even Lan has... Mordin says it is a specialty of his (he says he has no fear others will see him, and he used the TP to float around soundlessly, appearing to float, back when he had fire eyes and rand thought he was the DO)....

Listen, as much as I want to believe you on your blye eyes,..errr..posts, I just can't.

You're going to have to find that quote (or if someone else knows it, please post it). If you do find what you are referring to, I'm pretty confident it's going to be a TAR quote. If that's the case, then I'm going to reject it by default. TAR is a whole different ball-game; a mind-game in fact. So, get that quote on the table and we'll discuss it.

Untill then, I'm not going to believe Moridin even comes anywhere close to Lan on this matter. Let alone against two channelers with enhanced senses.

 

And we have other examples of him avoiding notice of those that can detect warders easily. We know that Mordin was using the TP and the only person with lots of knowledge about what it can do is ishy.

 

If Ishy can use it to move soundlessly it is easily plausible given the other examples we have seen.

Show us those 'other examples' that are relevant, please. I very much doubt that they exist.

And about 'the only person with lots of knowledge about what TP can do' is not Ishy, but RJ. He told us all we need to know to figure it out.

 

There were constant streams of black specs moving faster and faster throughout teh scene so he was using it constantly. Using it to move soundlessly isn't out of the question given that fancloth would make him invisible with enough skill in moving.

We don't know if he was using it. We know he was hanging on to the True Power. Nowhere does it say the Watcher did something with the True Power untill the Watcher Travelled with it. The Saa moved faster and faster when the Watcher 'tensed' and wondered if he should intervene, which he never did.

Or are you suggesting the Watcher made himself more silent or something when he was on the verge of intervening?

The Watcher might just be 'drinking deeper' on the True Power, but not be doing anything with it. In fact, I think that's the case here, since the Watcher did exactly nothing, but stand/sit and listen while wondering wheter to act (which he didn't)

 

Personally I don't think he did this, but that is one way a ward would work and get around your assumption that sound would not be able to get back to teh user.

It's not assumption. It's directly from the books; KoD, Chapter 19 (I think; top of my head). Wards blocking sound do work both ways.

 

4. If the Watcher is Moridin, why didn't he have any trouble moving (-ghosted, as it was literally called-) through the trees, it was clearly very hard, judging from Sammaels & Graendals stumbling and sound they made when comming to the clearing?

What else was Moridin doing that required a constant stream of TP to be used? THere are multiple references to its use and the flecks. It didn't say what he was doing with teh power, but it did say he ghosted around, /shrug

Who says the True Power needs to be actively channeled to show Saa? Just like channelers can drink deeply, just keeping the Power inside, so can the Watcher hold on to a certain amount of True Power. The more someone holds, the faster the Saa.. the less someone holds, the slower.

Simple.

 

Nothing shows the Watcher channeled one tiny flow of True Power, untill he Travelled. And that's right after the Watcher experienced a horizontal blizzard of Saa, indicating he was holding huge ammounts of True Power (to Travel). Or did you think the Watcher was channeling heaps of True Power before the Watcher Travelled??

 

5. If the Watcher is Moridin, how come he could step outside the Pattern?

5. Because he can ender a vacule

That’s an option, yes. And a nice one.

(I left this here for if someone else has stuff to add)

 

 

 

 

 

Diect words: He had let the link between them dissolve, too.. but the man did hold saidin.

Note it does not refer to him seeing this happen, just that he knew it had happened. Any male channeler would be able to notice when this occured. As stated above of why any male channeler would know this happened

 

You’re wrong here. Male channelers have to be real close to eachother to sense the other holding the source. Are you suggesting the Watcher stood right next to Sammael & Graendal.

 

Nope, they have to be close to know how much Saidin they are holding, not that they are holding the source. The more that is being used or held the less close they have to be. This is why the CK acted like a beacon. If it is as you said none of the male channelers would of felt teh cleansing, when there is ample proof that every male channeler felt it

Sorry, but you are wrong here, fryn.

Rand acted like a beacon (not the CK) because he was actively channeling huge (and I do mean H.U.G.E) ammounts of Power.

No male channeler felt him holding the Power before Rand actively started weaving.

 

A few sentenses prior Mordin mentions grand taking the source back up and the tingling. I didn't post it because it was not relevant. There was a long period where Grandael did not hold teh source. If you don't believe me read the 4 - 5 section with the watcher again.

What the..? This is wrong. Please quote the exact bit where it is mentioned the Watcher felt a prickling sensation prior to the gateway, because I can't find it. The prickling is mentioned in relation to Graendals gateway only. And the sensation stops the same moment as Graendal releases the source, but those two events are not related, because it says "as well" at the end of the sentence.

 

You are mistaking Moridin for the Gholam. Sorry. Your whole argument is flawed to begin with.

 

No I am not. Reread it again. It was Mordin. The gholam was no where near the point. You see the gholam's pov later because he followed the use of the power. He did not see them leave.

It was the Gholam that Avi saw:

 

Its nostrils flared again, though it was not by scent that it tracked those who could channel. The One Power had been used below, and miles to the north. To follow, or not? The man [Mat] who had wounded it was not with them; it had made sure of that before leaving the high vantage place.

 

 

See? It's not all that logical the Watcher is Moridin... :)

In fact, I'd say it's more likely it's Shaidar Haran if you dig a little deeper.

 

Nah you are grasping at straws. Thin straws at that. He talks about intimate knowledge of other chosen, and he talks about becoming Nae'blis, which is a title for chosen. SH is not a chosen... he is something entirely different. I doubt he cares who is Nae'blis

Pfft. I think it's a shame you see it that way.

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

@vasu619; I'm out of time.. I'll take a raincheck on answering some of your post later.

 

 

[Jethro]

Nah you are grasping at straws. Thin straws at that. He talks about intimate knowledge of other chosen, and he talks about becoming Nae'blis, which is a title for chosen. SH is not a chosen... he is something entirely different. I doubt he cares who is Nae'blis

 

I cant help throwing 2p in here. Just because Shaidar isnt Chosen doesnt by any means at all mean he cant know about the other Chosen-in fact we see Shaidar make a reference to Mesaana personally In Crossroads of Twilight-A Mark, where he says Mesaana was always "overly wasteful." More importantly, it wasnt stated in the BOOMING VOICE OF THE DARK ONE, so it was definitely Shaidar talking. Also, the Watcher doesnt think of becoming Nae'blis himself, only noting that the term was mentioned between Graendal and Sammael.

[vasu619]

@vasu619; I'm out of time.. I'll take a raincheck on answering some of your post later.

 

Take your time bro :D.

 

[Jethro]

How much are rainchecks worth?  ;)

[Tel Janin]

Two dollars and Fifteen cents!

 

Obscure movie quotes are an obsession of mine.  Sorry.  ;D

[Jethro]

Obscene jokes are one of mine. Not worth posting any as I'll probably get kicked off the site hehe. Anyway this Morishaidar debate is interesting! Can we have some more?

[Valinthros]

In your earlier suggestion (about the tingling sensation that stopped), it’s still pivotal that Graendal is no longer holding the source or channeling actively. So, I can't prove she was actively channeling, but the Watchers thoughts on Sammael letting the link dissolve proves Graendal was a direct threat to Sammy's health.

 

Alright.  Something I wanted to point out.  The Watcher was close enough to sense these things.  It's a double edged sword here.  That neither means that it's SH or Morridin.  I'll get more into the Morridin basis in a moment and expand upon this one.  Before I do, I just want to state for the record that with the description that is presented there is no way to know exactly how far he was from them.  You can speculate that the red dress was easy to follow, however, have you every followed someone in a forest?  Trees can block one's view quite easily, so by that reasoning you can say that he had to be close enough to see the dress, red or not.

 

Next to that, you never adressed the point of distance between the Watcher and our deadly duo;

The Watcher was following them by 'the easy to follow red dress' (in wood-like area).

How far off is that do you recon? Could you post one example where a male channeler feels a female channeler just holding the source from a distance?

 

Could you?  Do you know how far one can sense it?  Ties into what I said above.  Obviously, the watcher was in range, or he wouldnt have been able to.  On both counts, Saidin too.  Your argument doesnt rest on this, it rests on how far he actually was, because he definitely was close enough to sense it.  Also, wasnt he within earshot?  So, how close would you recon, to hear them speak clearly, with all the rustling going on around them?  Pretty close maybe?  ;)

 

Sorry, but there aren't. If you say there are, you're going to have to show me quotes, because I provided two very similar quotes to the situation the Watcher is in and those prove the opposite of what you say

 

It's ok, you dont have to link it again.  I just wanted to point out a few things that may matter.  First, there was a huge ammount of saidin being channeled, and in the instance that you use as an example I would think that would be a direct conflict with the ability to sense things.  Female's physically see the glow, males feel the force of it.  If there's force of the like that Rand was tossing around, and you are not concentrating or looking like Demandred was, I would think it would be easy to get a bit fuzzy.  Demandred wasnt looking, and I assume that Balth/Halima was not either.  The Ashaman are inexperienced at these things as well, so I wouldnt necessarily take their reactions as cannon.  Anyhow, just some thoughts for you to consider when comparing the two situations.  One other thing, Ishy has been working with the power for a very very long time.  I would think he would have a bit better handle on sensing things like that than others not so.. fortunate?  ;)

 

Listen, as much as I want to believe you on your blye eyes,..errr..posts, I just can't.

You're going to have to find that quote (or if someone else knows it, please post it). If you do find what you are referring to, I'm pretty confident it's going to be a TAR quote. If that's the case, then I'm going to reject it by default. TAR is a whole different ball-game; a mind-game in fact. So, get that quote on the table and we'll discuss it.

Untill then, I'm not going to believe Moridin even comes anywhere close to Lan on this matter. Let alone against two channelers with enhanced senses.

 

Ok.  Immagine for a minute that Morridin is oh.. thousands of years old, with enormous ammounts of practice at watching and manipulating events.  Then, assume for a moment that Lan is oh.. 80?  I think it is definitely possible that Morridin/Ishy could put Lan to shame, or any other third ager.  And on the Watcher's thoughts on what he concentrated on that Sam did not...  That reeks of competitiveness, it's like saying you're better than someone, or that the person in question is a fool compared to you.  I dont think SH has anyone to compete with, do you?  Additionally, why would SH even need to concentrate on stealth?  Cant he move from shadow (no matter how small) to shadow?  Why would that be an issue or thought at all?

 

We don't know if he was using it. We know he was hanging on to the True Power. Nowhere does it say the Watcher did something with the True Power untill the Watcher Travelled with it. The Saa moved faster and faster when the Watcher 'tensed' and wondered if he should intervene, which he never did.

Or are you suggesting the Watcher made himself more silent or something when he was on the verge of intervening?

The Watcher might just be 'drinking deeper' on the True Power, but not be doing anything with it. In fact, I think that's the case here, since the Watcher did exactly nothing, but stand/sit and listen while wondering wheter to act (which he didn't)

 

I could be incorrect on this one but.. Do we know that SH can/is using the TP at all?  Is there any concrete indication that he does?  The fact is, whoever the watcher is, and to be frank I do believe it's Morridin, he is definitely using the TP.  Just thought I'd point that out.

 

It's not assumption. It's directly from the books; KoD, Chapter 19 (I think; top of my head). Wards blocking sound do work both ways.

 

*grin*  Absolutely!  Additionally that does not quite disprove whether or not he could put it around say everything below the neck so he could hear.  Or that such a weave exists.. or not.  I think this one's a moot point, because neither side can factually state for certain that it can or cannot be done.  I'm sure we dont know the half of what the power, especially the true power, can do anyway.

 

See? It's not all that logical the Watcher is Moridin...

In fact, I'd say it's more likely it's Shaidar Haran if you dig a little deeper.

 

I think anyone can convince themselves of anything if they put their mind to it.  It's only a process of beleif anyhow, and that is in the eye of the beholder.  To you, it may seem more likely because it fits into your theory on Morridin=SH, and that's ok.  It's an excersize in thought.  As a return, I will say this, and that's why I quoted this little tidbit:

 

I can entertain the idea that it's SH.  I can see exactly how you came to that conclusion.  I accept those arguments.  I do not agree, however.  My money has been on Morridin for a while now, and though you do present a good argument, it's not solid enough to convince me, even when I entertain it as truth.  Too much can be shot down from the other direction, and the whole scenerio fits Ishy/Morridin's MO.  You would think SH, like the dark one, would use some birds to spy.  ;)

 

[Majsju]

 

I could be incorrect on this one but.. Do we know that SH can/is using the TP at all?  Is there any concrete indication that he does?  The fact is, whoever the watcher is, and to be frank I do believe it's Morridin, he is definitely using the TP.  Just thought I'd point that out.

 

 

 

 

In a way we know that SH is using TP, since SH is the DO in a shadowy (and weaker) form, and TP is the DOs power. Of course, with that kind of conection between SH and the DO, the way that creature uses TP might, and most likely is quite different from a human like Moridin.

[Mik]

Alright.  Something I wanted to point out.  The Watcher was close enough to sense these things.  It's a double edged sword here.  That neither means that it's SH or Morridin.  I'll get more into the Morridin basis in a moment and expand upon this one.  Before I do, I just want to state for the record that with the description that is presented there is no way to know exactly how far he was from them.  You can speculate that the red dress was easy to follow, however, have you every followed someone in a forest? Trees can block one's view quite easily, so by that reasoning you can say that he had to be close enough to see the dress, red or not.

 

Next to that, you never adressed the point of distance between the Watcher and our deadly duo;

The Watcher was following them by 'the easy to follow red dress' (in wood-like area).

How far off is that do you recon? Could you post one example where a male channeler feels a female channeler just holding the source from a distance?

 

Could you?  Do you know how far one can sense it?  Ties into what I said above.  Obviously, the watcher was in range, or he wouldnt have been able to.  On both counts, Saidin too.  Your argument doesnt rest on this, it rests on how far he actually was, because he definitely was close enough to sense it.  Also, wasnt he within earshot?  So, how close would you recon, to hear them speak clearly, with all the rustling going on around them?  Pretty close maybe?  ;)

First off, it’s not speculation on my part that the red dress was easy to follow; that’s directly from the text ([Watcher thought] “That red dress was easy to follow”). Second, we also know from that same line that it was by following the red dress that the Watcher trailed Sammy & Granny.

 

You make it appear it’s irrelevant the dress was red and that trees block view, but in an almost leafless forest (straight from the chapter; [sevanna:]“The nearly leafless branches overhead”), close to the middle of the day in sunlight (straight from the chapter; [sevanna:]“The sun still had a way to climb to its peak”) it does make a difference if you follow a bright red moving object or –say- a dull brown or dark green one (also straight from the chapter; ([sevanna;] “she [Grandeal] wore bright red silk”).

 

It doesn’t get any easier then following someone moving in sunny conditions between near leafless trees wearing a bright shiny silken red dress, so regardless if we can not put an exact number of paces between the Watcher and the deadly duo; the words suggest it was the largest possible distance for keeping an eye on them. So what we do know for a fact from the text is that the Watcher was not following them at close range. I’m even completely disregarding the assumption, that holding on to the True Power enhances senses like holding on to the True Source does.

 

So what this distance does prove –regardless if it was forty  paces or one hundred and fifty paces- is that if the Watcher was a male human being he could not have sensed/ felt Sammael just holding the source!

 

Because we also know for a fact, that for one human male to sense another holding saidin, they have to be real close. And close in this case is somewhere between ‘within arms reach’ and ‘within a few paces’ at best. And certainly not at a distance where you are following by keeping your eye on a bright red moving object against a contrasting back-ground. We know this from the following two quotes;

 

He had clearer warning this time—it was male work—as another gateway opened, showing marble arches open onto wide stone balconies, and gulls wheeling and crying in a cloudless blue sky. Finally a man appeared and stepped through, the way closing behind him

. …/ /…

Linked to saidin as tightly as Rahvin—this close Rahvin could feel it, dimly—Sammael eyed him warily. [this close being a few paces at best and Rahvin felt it ‘dimly’]

…/ /…

Then he sensed Sammael gathering the Power, sensed a difference in it—Sammael would call it seizing a tactical advantage—and bent to grab the other man’s arm [very close range; within arms reach]. Sammael shook him off angrily, but the moment had passed.

 

 

Asmodean plucked random chords as Rand took a seat on a cushion facing him. [within arms reach]

…/ /…

“If you planned this between you—trapping me—” Rand sensed a surge in Asmodean, as if the Forsaken were testing the shield Lanfear had woven around him; women who could channel saw a glow surrounding another woman who had embraced saidar and felt her channeling clearly, but he never saw anything around Asmodean and felt little.

 

The Watcher specifically states he knows Sammael “holds saidin”. How can he tell, when we know that human males cannot sense it beyond a few paces?

Not because the Watcher magically does sense it. Because the Watcher can see it.

 

How can the Watcher tell the specific difference between the pair being linked with Sammael in control and Sammael & Graendal both holding the source individually from a distance? How does he know for sure that Sammael let the link dissolve, from a distance?

How could he specifically sense the difference? Especially from a distance?

Because the Watcher can see it.

 

We know for a fact that the Watcher can see Sammy & Granny.

What is the only creature we know has a visual ability to see both Saidin & Saidar being used and see it has been used?

Shaidar Haran

Is this proof in and by itself? No, but it’s a much better explanation given the facts.

I’m only assuming Shaidar Haran can see humans holding the source, which relates to the ability about seeing residue & flows of both genders very much.

 

Whereas to think the Watcher is Moridin –just a male human-, you have to assume Moridin has abilities that we have seen disproved in the books, namely that he can sense the ability in Sammael from a distance. And that he can feel the tingling sensation from Graendal holding the source from a distance that’s just enough to see them.

 

Which is the bigger assumption, you reckon?

 

Sorry, but there aren't. If you say there are, you're going to have to show me quotes, because I provided two very similar quotes to the situation the Watcher is in and those prove the opposite of what you say

It's ok, you dont have to link it again.  I just wanted to point out a few things that may matter.  First, there was a huge ammount of saidin being channeled, and in the instance that you use as an example I would think that would be a direct conflict with the ability to sense things. 

Well, your response proves it’s a good thing I quoted the relevant sections again. If you would have read them better, you would have noticed that Eben & Aran’gar sense that they are both holding the source at the exact same moment (Aran’gar frowned as Eben’s blood drained from his face). We also know for a fact both are holding on to the source. Eben through the linking & we have Eben stating it about Aran’gar the moment he feels it. We know the moment of ‘sensing eachother’ happened when Aran’gar moved within arms reach of Eben for Eben to “throw himself at Aran’gar”. This was while Rand was channelling huge amounts of Saidin & Saidar, so your whole point about not being able to sense it because of Rand, is moot.

In addition, this quote also clearly showed the distance to sense another male channeler just holding the source (the female body is irrelevant) is very, very close. This ties in with the Rahvin/ Sammael & the Rand/ Asmo examples.

 

Female's physically see the glow, males feel the force of it.  If there's force of the like that Rand was tossing around, and you are not concentrating or looking like Demandred was, I would think it would be easy to get a bit fuzzy.  Demandred wasnt looking, and I assume that Balth/Halima was not either.

Erm.. again you aren’t reading the quotes well; Demandred is specifically observing the 3 channelers from a distance in a wood. He’s focused on them & ponders what or who they are. He even states he’ll let them pass because he fears using Saidin will alert Rand. Demandred wasn’t “fuzzy” at all. And even after he is attacked, we never read him mentioning feeling anything. Another argument down the drain, I’m afraid.

 

The Ashaman are inexperienced at these things as well, so I wouldnt necessarily take their reactions as cannon.  Anyhow, just some thoughts for you to consider when comparing the two situations.  One other thing, Ishy has been working with the power for a very very long time.  I would think he would have a bit better handle on sensing things like that than others not so.. fortunate?  ;)

Nonsense; like I said a few lines up, Eben and Aran’gar sense eachother holding the source at the exact same time; when Aran’gar gets within a few paces away from Eben, tops.

 

That discredits the whole totally unfounded argument that sensing the other one comes with years. Aran’gar has all the experience of the AoL and years and years of experience in comparison to Eben, yet they sense each other at the same distance.

 

You’re guessing....and guessing badly at that, since your arguments are easily disproved by those same quotes I posted alone.

 

Listen, as much as I want to believe you on your blye eyes,..errr..posts, I just can't.

You're going to have to find that quote (or if someone else knows it, please post it). If you do find what you are referring to, I'm pretty confident it's going to be a TAR quote. If that's the case, then I'm going to reject it by default. TAR is a whole different ball-game; a mind-game in fact. So, get that quote on the table and we'll discuss it.

Untill then, I'm not going to believe Moridin even comes anywhere close to Lan on this matter. Let alone against two channelers with enhanced senses.

 

Ok.  Immagine for a minute that Morridin is oh.. thousands of years old, with enormous ammounts of practice at watching and manipulating events.  Then, assume for a moment that Lan is oh.. 80?  I think it is definitely possible that Morridin/Ishy could put Lan to shame, or any other third ager.  And on the Watcher's thoughts on what he concentrated on that Sam did not...  That reeks of competitiveness, it's like saying you're better than someone, or that the person in question is a fool compared to you.

How about you (or fryn) find us those quotes fryn mentioned, first? This whole arguments fundament is based on a refference to some quotes you nor fryn have shown. Basically, that means it doesn’t have any fundament, but let's tackle it anyway;

 

And about that “concentration/ competition” you mentioned the Watcher supposedly used. All he did was stand still. Here’s what the Watcher thought when Sammael looked back;

Sammael stopped, glancing behind them. The watcher stood very still. Swathed in fancloth except for his eyes, he had no worry that he would be seen. Over the years he had learned expertise in many areas Sammael scorned. In some he favored, too.

 

Firstly, you’re assuming that the Watchers comments on ‘expertise over the years’ have anything to do with an inhumane ability to producing no sound, which is false;

The Watchers remark is clearly linked to Sammael looking back and the Watcher having no worries he would be seen.

It doesn’t have anything to do –or say- about moving with great stealth.

It’s got nothing to do with concentration or competition at all.

 

Second, having thousands of years of experience at manipulation, means exactly zilch, when you’re talking about warder-like skills. Even if you assume, that having those would make you move ‘soundlessly ‘over dead leaves (mentioned throughout the whole chapter) and twigs.

 

It’s like saying having thousands of years of experience with driving a car, could make you a top dog-fighter. Or that living in Alaska thousands of years, makes you an expert on Russia. They’re unrelated. No link..nada.

 

I dont think SH has anyone to compete with, do you?  Additionally, why would SH even need to concentrate on stealth?  Cant he move from shadow (no matter how small) to shadow?  Why would that be an issue or thought at all?

You’re the one who made up about the Watcher having a competition with Sammy. But to answer your question; no, Shaidar Haran has no competition. Not that it matters one bit in this case…

 

And about concentration; again, you made that up. It doesn’t take me much concentration really to stand still. You?

 

Then the point about moving from shadow to shadow, no matter how small; No, Myrddraal can’t jump from little shady spot to small shadowy place.

You’re just guessing again.

 

Chapter 20 takes place close to noon, with leafless trees. Shaidar Haran needs ‘deeper shadow’ to become invisible, as you can read from his PoV in Chapter 40. Shaidar Harans PoV in Chapter 40 happened late in the day;

The sun sat low behind the mountains to the west, half of a glowing red ball.

…/ /…

The Myrddraal moved from the deeper shadows, becoming visible.

 

Myrddraal are able to make no sound at will (as seen in Chapter 1 & 6 of TEotW), but they are as visible as humans without deep shadow. A Myrddraal needs fancloth too, with the sun overhead and no deep shadow present. It’s called “coming prepared”.

 

We don't know if he was using it. We know he was hanging on to the True Power. Nowhere does it say the Watcher did something with the True Power untill the Watcher Travelled with it. The Saa moved faster and faster when the Watcher 'tensed' and wondered if he should intervene, which he never did.

Or are you suggesting the Watcher made himself more silent or something when he was on the verge of intervening?

The Watcher might just be 'drinking deeper' on the True Power, but not be doing anything with it. In fact, I think that's the case here, since the Watcher did exactly nothing, but stand/sit and listen while wondering wheter to act (which he didn't)

 

I could be incorrect on this one but.. Do we know that SH can/is using the TP at all?  Is there any concrete indication that he does?  The fact is, whoever the watcher is, and to be frank I do believe it's Morridin, he is definitely using the TP.  Just thought I'd point that out.

See Maj’s response. Actually, this is the best argument you posted so far. We don’t know if Shaidar Haran is using the True Power. Let’s call it an ‘educated guess’. Do you have a better suggestion?

 

It's not assumption. It's directly from the books; KoD, Chapter 19 (I think; top of my head). Wards blocking sound do work both ways.

 

*grin*  Absolutely!  Additionally that does not quite disprove whether or not he could put it around say everything below the neck so he could hear.  Or that such a weave exists.. or not.  I think this one's a moot point, because neither side can factually state for certain that it can or cannot be done.  I'm sure we dont know the half of what the power, especially the true power, can do anyway.

You’re right. But what discredits the idea, is the fact that we never saw one. And each time a ward was used in the books, as any good writer will do, is somehow show it’s being used. There’s not even a hint that the Watcher used a ward or that the Watcher channelled a speck of power, until he leaves.

 

To say, that the lack of any proof makes it even, is like me saying Semirhage was at the clearing too, yet noone mentioned her. You can’t prove she wasn’t there and I can’t prove she was. It’s a silly statement though, because of the fact that it’s baseless. That doesn’t make it a statement that can fall either way.

Your suggestion the Watcher uses a ward we can't find in the text in a way it;s never been used before, because he ‘ghosted through trees, making no sound’ is baseless in the same way. The only logical conclusion is that that ward was never used.

 

The Watcher produced no sound. It’s not saying sound is deflected, caught, stopped, absorbed...sound was never produced. We know for a fact that Myrddraal have this ability (go read chapter 1 & 6 of TEotW).

Why would you all assume that the Watcher was a human being that doesn't have this ability?

Because RJ duped you. You didn't take notice.

Now Shaidar Haran... he's a Myrddraal.. makes prefect sense he doesn't make sound!

 

See? It's not all that logical the Watcher is Moridin...

In fact, I'd say it's more likely it's Shaidar Haran if you dig a little deeper.

 

I think anyone can convince themselves of anything if they put their mind to it.  It's only a process of beleif anyhow, and that is in the eye of the beholder.  To you, it may seem more likely because it fits into your theory on Morridin=SH, and that's ok.  It's an excersize in thought.

Well, you all convinced yourselves the Watcher is Moridin, because of the easy bait by RJ. So yeah. it's a process of belief, guided by the story-teller. RJ got all you guys gooooood.  ;)

 

And if you back-track this thread a little, you'll see that theory of mine isn't pulled from my arse. I mean, there's a zillion hints and puzzle-pieces that fall into place when you see it.

 

Reading a story to see the plot-devices up front? You're right; that is a pretty big 'excersize in thought' as you put it, when it concerns a series stretching 12 books so far.

 

As a return, I will say this, and that's why I quoted this little tidbit:.

 

I can entertain the idea that it's SH.  I can see exactly how you came to that conclusion.  I accept those arguments.  I do not agree, however.  My money has been on Morridin for a while now, and though you do present a good argument, it's not solid enough to convince me, even when I entertain it as truth.  Too much can be shot down from the other direction, and the whole scenerio fits Ishy/Morridin's MO.  You would think SH, like the dark one, would use some birds to spy.  ;)

I hope me making short work of your arguments, make you view the Watcher in a different light. A shadowy kinda light.

 

Moridin and Shaidar Haran are one being. Ishamael has always had atleast a link to Myrddraal. When Ishamael died to Rand, his mind was heavilly corrupted by True Power use, and Shai'tan was able to made the link to a Myrddraal better; there was less left of the human being called Elan Morin once. There was more crevices for Shai'tan to fill then the first time around. This time he has a living mind (what's left of it) in a Myrddraal body. That's why Shaidar Haran is the only Myrddraal able to channel. It makes sense in so many ways, I scare myself!

 

Somewhat like Slayer, I suppose (Slayer is just a litteral device to make us accept plot-twists like these easier, I think. Kinda like; "wow, that creature has two bodies that share a mind, just like Slayer!"...instead of "Where did that come from?")

 

Ishamael gave himself to Shai’tan so far from the very beginning, he’s always been just ‘half’ a step below Him. That’s what it means to be Nae’Blis. It’s more then just a title, like the other Chosen believe.

 

Muhaahahaaa!

Cheers,

 

Mik <- so deep in the Shadow, he's atleast half-mad. (Ishy's insane 'little brother')  ;D

[Valinthros]

In a way we know that SH is using TP, since SH is the DO in a shadowy (and weaker) form, and TP is the DOs power. Of course, with that kind of conection between SH and the DO, the way that creature uses TP might, and most likely is quite different from a human like Moridin.

I'll accept that.  He is, in fact, a direct extension of the DO, so that makes sense to me.  I suppose he wouldnt see the SAA either, which explains why it isnt in his POV.

 

 

First off, it’s not speculation on my part that the red dress was easy to follow; that’s directly from the text ([Watcher thought] “That red dress was easy to follow”). Second, we also know from that same line that it was by following the red dress that the Watcher trailed Sammy & Granny.

I'm going to leave some stuff that you posted out, because it's just going to take up more space here.  Let me complete a sentence, I posted yesterday when I was quite tired, and completed the thought, just not on paper:

 

Trees can block one's view quite easily, so by that reasoning you can say that he had to be close enough to see the dress, red or not, it only proves that he could follow it easily not how far he was.

 

So, your speculation, as I meant to address, was about the distance.  I just had a hard time putting it together in my sleep deprived state.  Additionally, as I stated and you did not address in your response, and I'm rewording it a bit more aggressively here:

 

If you cant prove that he was 5 feet or 100 feet, you cant tell me he was not close enough to sense the source being held because the book states directly that he did in fact detect these things.  The point of this is, you are making an assumption that he was not close enough by male channeler standards to sense it, when all you have to go on is speculation.  Fact:  He was following them.  Speculation:  Whatever distance you would like to insert here.  And before you keep speculating from the wording that he was as far as he possibly could be from them, which you said:

...the words suggest it was the largest possible distance for keeping an eye on them. So what we do know for a fact from the text is that the Watcher was not following them at close range.

 

Fact from suggestion.  Not proof, or fact itself.  Present complete fact, and you've got me here.  ;)

 

What is the only creature we know has a visual ability to see both Saidin & Saidar being used and see it has been used?

Shaidar Haran

The Golem see's or smells it?  ;)

 

Whereas to think the Watcher is Moridin –just a male human-, you have to assume Moridin has abilities that we have seen disproved in the books, namely that he can sense the ability in Sammael from a distance. And that he can feel the tingling sensation from Graendal holding the source from a distance that’s just enough to see them.

 

I thought you said he was more/less than human?  Isnt that what your Morridin/SH theory is all about?  ;)

 

Well, your response proves it’s a good thing I quoted the relevant sections again....

 

Leaving a bit out so that we dont have an overlong post here.  My point wasnt that they had to be close, my point was two fold, and you rejected it on examples from different circumstances.  To be precise, my point was simply:

The Ashaman are novices, and there was a huge ammount of Saidin being channeled at the time.  Demandred did not suspect Ashaman to be present.  I dont remember him saying it, but I beleive Dem suspected they were warders.  To continue, the Watcher expected it, and had no distractions.  Truth.

 

That discredits the whole totally unfounded argument that sensing the other one comes with years.

 

And where did I say that you can sense someone holding saidin only after you have used the source for years?

 

How about you (or fryn) find us those quotes fryn mentioned, first? This whole arguments fundament is based on a refference to some quotes you nor fryn have shown. Basically, that means it doesn’t have any fundament, but let's tackle it anyway

 

*chuckle*  So, what you're saying is that it's impossible that Ishy would learn how to move soundlessly in any setting because... why?  I said it's possible, you said it's impossible, or rather you suggest that it is.  You do not accept this as a possibility because you choose to, and that's ok.  If that's the case, state it, because you have absolutely no information that says Ishy did not.  None.  And consequently, making no sound can equal moving with stealth.  I think you're definitely reading too much into it.  Mydraal moving silently is possible, see, I said it.  Your turn?

 

Sammael stopped, glancing behind them. The watcher stood very still. Swathed in fancloth except for his eyes, he had no worry that he would be seen. Over the years he had learned expertise in many areas Sammael scorned. In some he favored, too.

 

*chuckle*  You dont see a reference to competition here?  Maybe I didnt explain it right.  When someone compares, or boasts, even in thought, that they are better at something it's usually competion oriented.  Additionally, why in the creator's name would a fade think something like this?  Especially a newly remade(?) fade?  Please explain, because I have no clue why a fade would compare themselves to an AOL Forsaken.

 

 

Myrddraal are able to make no sound at will (as seen in Chapter 1 & 6 of TEotW), but they are as visible as humans without deep shadow. A Myrddraal needs fancloth too, with the sun overhead and no deep shadow present. It’s called “coming prepared”.

 

Really?  Prove it.  It said in that quote that he moved out of deep shadow and became visible, not that he needed it to be invisible.  Assumption.  Probable, but still assumption.  Again, quote something that states that he needs it.  Oh.. incidentally, any references to any Mydraal snaggin some fancloth for concealment?  Hmmm.

 

 

Still entertaining your theory, and still believe that Morridin is the more likely choice.  As an aside, dont take anything I'm posting as personal, it's definitely meant as a mental excersize not a beat on said person.  ;)

[Mik]

First off, it’s not speculation on my part that the red dress was easy to follow; that’s directly from the text ([Watcher thought] “That red dress was easy to follow”). Second, we also know from that same line that it was by following the red dress that the Watcher trailed Sammy & Granny.

I'm going to leave some stuff that you posted out, because it's just going to take up more space here.  Let me complete a sentence, I posted yesterday when I was quite tired, and completed the thought, just not on paper:

Trees can block one's view quite easily, so by that reasoning you can say that he had to be close enough to see the dress, red or not, it only proves that he could follow it easily not how far he was.

 

So, your speculation, as I meant to address, was about the distance.  I just had a hard time putting it together in my sleep deprived state.  Additionally, as I stated and you did not address in your response, and I'm rewording it a bit more aggressively here:

 

If you cant prove that he was 5 feet or 100 feet, you cant tell me he was not close enough to sense the source being held because the book states directly that he did in fact detect these things.  The point of this is, you are making an assumption that he was not close enough by male channeler standards to sense it, when all you have to go on is speculation.  Fact:  He was following them.  Speculation:  Whatever distance you would like to insert here.  And before you keep speculating from the wording that he was as far as he possibly could be from them, which you said:

...the words suggest it was the largest possible distance for keeping an eye on them. So what we do know for a fact from the text is that the Watcher was not following them at close range.

 

Fact from suggestion.  Not proof, or fact itself.  Present complete fact, and you've got me here.  ;)

Ok. I understand the point you are making, but I think the point of how much distance it is, is irrelevant. I'll show you why, by reversing my explanation:

 

I'm going to assume the Watcher is the Moridin you think he is; a male human.

We know male human channelers can sense another male human channeler holding the source at a distance from 'within arms reach' [Rahvin/Sammael] to feeling it dimly 'a few paces away' [Rahvin/Sammael & Rand/Asmodean & Eben/Asan'gar]. We know the sensing ability of human males stops there, because in situations were human male channelers are further apart, they cannot sense eachother just holding the source. We also know this from the Eben/Asan'gar quote, because we see the exact moment when they sense eachother described in detail.

We also know, that human male channelers do not see anything when another male holds the source. [Rand/ Asmodean quote].

 

So, for the Watcher to be Moridin, Moridin would have to be tracking Sammael & Graendal at anywhere between a distance from 'on Sammaels back' (0 feet) to 'the maximum distance you can throw yourself in attack at someone else' (let's be generous; say 15 feet/4,5 meters), to know Sammael was holding on to the Source.

 

If you honestly think, that the Watcher thought about how easy it was to follow the moving bright red silk dress close to noon in a leafless forest -disregarding possible heightened senses due to holding the TP- at a distance closer then 50 feet (15 meters), then I think we're done talking.

 

Ofcourse, that's not all you have to convince yourself of;

 

You also have to convince yourself that Sammael somehow didn't spot the Watcher -even in fancloth- when he looked back and The Watcher being Moridin sitting almost on Sammaels back. Do consider the fact that Sammael was holding the source and didn't need glasses to read a newspaper at 10 feet. Sammael could practically smell Moridins sweat at that distance.

 

You also have to believe that Moridin as the Watcher was so damn good in moving absolutely soundlesly through a forest on a bed of brown leaves, where his Chosen buds stumble around or that he used a ward that wasn't implied anywhere in the text and never used in that form in any other part of the series. On top of that, both Graendal & Sammael held on to the source, meaning they had exceptional hearing.

 

See my point?

I don't need to know the exact distance. Knowing the Watcher wasn't on Sammaels back is more then enough to prove the Watcher couldn't have been Moridin.

Logic more then suggests if the Watcher is Moridin he was further off then 15 feet. (a lot further)

Logic more then suggests that if the Watcher was further then 15 feet, the Watcher couldn't sense Sammael holding the source.

Logic suggests that if the Watcher isn't Moridin, it has to be Shaidar Haran.

Logic suggests that if the Watcher is Shaidar Haran, then Shaidar Haran and Moridin are linked somehow.

 

I even disregarded the fact about the Watcher noting the difference between the pair being linked and noting them individually holding the source. Human males can not tell the difference from sensing alone. You might want to put some effort in explaining that.

 

What is the only creature we know has a visual ability to see both Saidin & Saidar being used and see it has been used?

Shaidar Haran

The Golem see's or smells it?  ;)

If you want to try and proove the Watcher was the Gholam,..... good luck.

I'm not going to discuss Gholam wih you here; it will only take the discussion off track and you know the Watcher isn't a Gholam.

 

Whereas to think the Watcher is Moridin –just a male human-, you have to assume Moridin has abilities that we have seen disproved in the books, namely that he can sense the ability in Sammael from a distance. And that he can feel the tingling sensation from Graendal holding the source from a distance that’s just enough to see them.

I thought you said he was more/less than human?  Isnt that what your Morridin/SH theory is all about?  ;)

It's about Shaidar Haran & Moridin being one creature. The Watcher was that creature in it's Myrddraal form (Shaidar Haran). Luc isn't Isam, yet they both are Slayer. Like Slayer, Moridin & Shaidar Haran share one mind. Your point?

 

Well, your response proves it’s a good thing I quoted the relevant sections again....

Leaving a bit out so that we dont have an overlong post here.  My point wasnt that they had to be close, my point was two fold, and you rejected it on examples from different circumstances. To be precise, my point was simply:

The Ashaman are novices, and there was a huge ammount of Saidin being channeled at the time.  Demandred did not suspect Ashaman to be present. I dont remember him saying it, but I beleive Dem suspected they were warders. To continue, the Watcher expected it, and had no distractions.  Truth.

We've been here already;

I proved your points were not relevant, because even a novice Asha'man (huh? a contradictionary term in and by itself FYI) in a position where huge amounts of Saidin are being channeled sensed another male holding the source at the exact same moment as that other male, who happened to be very experienced. That debunks the inexperience card you played. About the different circumstances, that's tackled also, because Rahvin & Sammael sensed eachother at roughly the same distance as Eben & Aran'gar started sensing eachother. Rahvin & Sammael were certainly expecting it.. and had no other distractions then the Watcher.

 

Your points are still moot. As I explained in the previous post.

 

That discredits the whole totally unfounded argument that sensing the other one comes with years.

 

And where did I say that you can sense someone holding saidin only after you have used the source for years?

Experience is all about certain abilities & knowledge viewed over time. So, you did. You were the one bringing inexperience into the equation and you linked it directly to their reaction not being canon.

I proved that was nonsense, showing the Asha'man (Eben, who is not inexperienced by the way) had his reaction at the exact same time as the more experienced channeler (Aran'gar). Heck, Eben even reacted faster when he sensed Aran'gar holding the source at the same time as Aran'gar felt it in Eben.

 

Mydraal moving silently is possible, see, I said it.  Your turn?

That's all you needed to say.

 

And no, not my turn; humans cannot move without making sound on a bed of brown leaves. Sorry. Any human being would be heard when following two channelers holding the source if they have to be withing atleast 15 feet to be able to sense one of them holding the source.

 

Just compare it to what Rand hears while moving 'as soundlessly as he could' over rubble crunching under his feet. He heard it like 'bones snapping'. Don't you think Sammael and/ or Graendal would hear instantly when a human was following them?

 

[Rand] hurried forward as fast as he could, as soundlessly as he could. Shattered pavement crunched under his boots with a sound like bones snapping. He hoped it was loud only to his saidin-enhanced ears.

 

Sammael stopped, glancing behind them. The watcher stood very still. Swathed in fancloth except for his eyes, he had no worry that he would be seen. Over the years he had learned expertise in many areas Sammael scorned. In some he favored, too.

*chuckle*  You dont see a reference to competition here?  Maybe I didnt explain it right.  When someone compares, or boasts, even in thought, that they are better at something it's usually competion oriented.

It's not boasting. The Watcher is just stating the obvious.

 

Additionally, why in the creator's name would a fade think something like this?  Especially a newly remade(?) fade?  Please explain, because I have no clue why a fade would compare themselves to an AOL Forsaken.

Because of the shared mind. It's what's left of Ishy's corrupted mind in a Myrddraal body. Compare Luc & Isam in Slayer. One has the memory of the other, yet only one does the actual thinking at any given point in time. Who does the thinking, depends on what body they are in.

 

About the 'newly' made fade; that's saying Osan'gar can't have Aginors memory. It's false.

Just because Ishamaels Mind (what's left of it) and Soul (what's left of it) were tied to a fade mind & soul (what's left of those) and then transmigrated into both a Human and a Fade body (think Slayer), doesn't mean Ishamael lost his memory.

 

Oh.. and *chuckle* *giggle* *chuckle*..?  ;)

 

Myrddraal are able to make no sound at will (as seen in Chapter 1 & 6 of TEotW), but they are as visible as humans without deep shadow. A Myrddraal needs fancloth too, with the sun overhead and no deep shadow present. It’s called “coming prepared”.

Really?  Prove it.  It said in that quote that he moved out of deep shadow and became visible, not that he needed it to be invisible.  Assumption.  Probable, but still assumption.  Again, quote something that states that he needs it.

Erm, I'm sorry, but that one quote is proof;

"The Myrddraal moved from the deeper shadows, becoming visible".

One was a direct result of the other: a Fade becomes visible by moving out of deeper shadows. We know the Myrdrdaal (Shaidar Haran) was invisible in those same deeper shadows, because none of all the Shaido nor Granny & Sammy saw it.

 

Not 'a small patch of shade' or something. Nope, 'deep shadow' makes a Lurk invissible. If it steps out deeper shadow, he becomes vissible.

 

Probable assumption would be saying a Lurk is also invissible in anything darker then 'deeper shadow'.

 

Sidenote;

Hey, isn't that a funny coincidence? "Lurk" being a name for Myrddraal. If you compare the name to what our anonymous "Watcher" is doing..... what a nice coincidence, wouldn't you say?

 

Oh.. incidentally, any references to any Mydraal snaggin some fancloth for concealment?  Hmmm.

There's only one chapter where a Myrddraal uses it; in ACoS Chapter 20.

 

It's the only chapter we ever see it used by anyone else other then a Warder for his cloak, though. I can return the question; where is Moridin using it in another place then this debated chapter? Or any of the Chosen for that matter?

 

Still entertaining your theory, and still believe that Morridin is the more likely choice.  As an aside, dont take anything I'm posting as personal, it's definitely meant as a mental excersize not a beat on said person.  ;)

I view it that way.

[vasu619]

Hey Mik, you say that the Watcher was more than 15 feet away, but then how was he able to hear Sammael and Graendal?

[Jethro]

They were only 15 feet away, its hardly out of hearing range even in a forest-the Watcher doesnt mention any particularly loud woodland sounds so theres no reason for him not to hear them clearly.

[Mik]

Hey Mik, you say that the Watcher was more than 15 feet away, but then how was he able to hear Sammael and Graendal?

I'm assuming the Watcher can hear properly. It's a long shot, I know. But there ya have it.  ;D :D

 

What helps, is that the Watcher isn't producing any sound himself; it's easier understanding what others are saying without making background noise yourself.

 

The watcher followed and listened. They had no idea. The True Power, drawn directly from the Great Lord, could neither be seen nor detected except by who wielded it. Black flecks floated across his vision.

The watcher followed and listened. Right after that, it becomes clear the watcher is wielding the True Power at that moment, suggesting wielding it helps the watcher listen in on Sammy & Granny.

 

It's a guess, but it could be that holding on to the True Power enhances senses as we know it does with holding on to the True Source. I don't think we ever saw that black on white in the books, but given the circumstances it's used, it could be possible...

 

[ChronoCrosS]

Hey Mik, do you know what the "saa" do? (the black flecks) Are they an indication that you are going mad, is the True Power like Saidin in that regard?

[Jethro]

Dont they destroy your eyes? Ishamaels corpses eye sockets were empty were they not?