Shivan the Hunter

[RAND AL THOR]

In my opinion, Hawk's words were there to increase the thrill of the moment and to make everything all the more cool. If it were me, I wouldn't read any further into it. I mean this part:

 

The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said. “You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.

 

It's just so awesome.  ;)

 

However, I would agree that the Dragon is not needed for the heroes because Verin mentions that if darkfriends blew the horn, the heroes would work for the dark. While Verin has no personal experience to back this up, it is an acceptable theory.

 

 

 

[Majsju]

 

Don't blame me. I didn't write that scene.

 

Fact remains; the heroes needed the Dragon & his banner to duke it out with the Seanchan.

 

Fact remains; the inscription on the Horn talks about it's true purpose;

Having the Heroes there for Tarmon Gai'don. Who's always there too?

Do the math.

 

Just because the inscription talks about TG, it does not necesarily mean that its only purpose is to be used at TG. Had that been the case, mat should not have been able to use it at Falme at all.

And even if the sole purpose had been to have it used at TG, there are more to the battle than Rand vs the DO. Especially if my theory about it holds true.

And as far as we know, the inscription might have been made long after the Horn was made.

 

 

[Hybrid]

Fact remains; the inscription on the Horn talks about it's true purpose;

Having the Heroes there for Tarmon Gai'don. Who's always there too?

Do the math.

The Dark One.  :o

[Cockta]

wut u talking abot?

[Mik]

Fact remains; the inscription on the Horn talks about it's true purpose;

Having the Heroes there for Tarmon Gai'don. Who's always there too?

Do the math.

The Dark One.  :o

Hehehe!

There's that too, yeah.

 

Just because the inscription talks about TG, it does not necesarily mean that its only purpose is to be used at TG. Had that been the case, mat should not have been able to use it at Falme at all.

 

It looks like it's supposed to be used at Tarmon Gai'don:

 

“It has to be there at the Last Battle,” Mat said, licking his lips. “Nothing says it can’t be used before then.” He pulled the Horn free of its lashings and looked at them anxiously. “Nothing says it can’t.”

Like Mat said; "nothing says it can't"...

And he's right. And as long as the conditions for it to function properly are met, you can actually do something with the Heroes that show up.

 

And while Mat did sound it yes, the Dragon actually used it.

(Mat started a car, Rand drove it... err.. sorta.. I hope you catch the drift)

 

And as far as we know, the inscription might have been made long after the Horn was made.

If we go down that road, Maj... where does it end? It couldn't have been inscribed during the AoL; the Horn was never used then...and people didn't even know there would be a 'last, lorn fight'. So before the AoL then?

 

And if we do go down that road,... wouldn't it be much much safer to asume the Horn of Valere was fabricated how it was found? I mean, if you doubt an artifact that old...that has never been used for 3000 years and got lost, how about all the items that were used?

 

You can't be sure of anything then.

 

Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

 

Robert Jordan Answers:

The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

 

In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.

 

I dunno Maj. :)

[Majsju]

Like Mat said; "nothing says it can't"...

And he's right. And as long as the conditions for it to function properly are met, you can actually do something with the Heroes that show up.

 

And while Mat did sound it yes, the Dragon actually used it.

(Mat started a car, Rand drove it... err.. sorta.. I hope you catch the drift)

 

So what is the point of having Mat bound to the Horn as Hornsounder? If it is a thing only meant for the Dragon, why have restrictions regarding a third party?

Would it not be easier to from the beginning have made it so only the Dragon could use it?

 

If it had this restriction that the Dragon always had to be there, and the banner always had to be waved around, it makes very little sense that Mat still can call them forth whenever he wants (Well, as soon as he gets the Horn back in his hands of course), but they would just sit there watching if Rand was busy elsewhere.

 

Talk about reducing Mats part in the story. Instead of being the super-general he has been set up as, he would just follow Rand around waiting for the order to blow the Horn. Talk about tossing a character development down the drain.

 

If we go down that road, Maj... where does it end? It couldn't have been inscribed during the AoL; the Horn was never used then...and people didn't even know there would be a 'last, lorn fight'. So before the AoL then?

 

The inscription sounds an awful lot like a Foretelling to me. A Talent that as we have seen it could not have existed when the Horn was created, since it requires the ability to channel.

 

And if we do go down that road,... wouldn't it be much much safer to asume the Horn of Valere was fabricated how it was found? I mean, if you doubt an artifact that old...that has never been used for 3000 years and got lost, how about all the items that were used?

 

You can't be sure of anything then.

 

Incidently, how things get twisted over the centuries is one of the main themes of WOT...

[Fryn]

Well you also have to remember that the fight was won and lost with Rand. When Ishy was beating Rand teh seachan were winning, but when Rand was pushing ishy back the heroes were winning. It is not a stretch that that is what hawking meant. Mat will still need to lead the heroes and all of the armies, but the out come of which army will win, will match how Rand's fight goes with either the DO or Mordin. Based on how the only fight we have seen has gone while the horn is in use it is not a stretch to say that the dragon is indeed required.

[lordofsoup]

couldent we just ask Brigitte everything?

 

who were Mat and Perrin reborn from that could have something to do with it, like Mat was one of LT's generals and Perrin was the banner man

[Hybrid]

Fact remains; the inscription on the Horn talks about it's true purpose;

Having the Heroes there for Tarmon Gai'don. Who's always there too?

Do the math.

The Dark One.  :o

Hehehe!

There's that too, yeah.

I couldn't resist.  ;) ;D

[Luckers]

So? That actually makes it eassier for the conditions of the Dragon's presence & Dragon Banners presence to be met!

 

When the Dragon does not walk the earth, the Dragon Soul is 'wallowing away in TAR' as you put it. What does the Horn do? Exactly; it will summon him. And hey, if Hawkwing can carry Justice, and Brigitte her silver bow, then the Dragon can carry his Banner -no matter how it looks- out of TAR too.

 

So someone blows the horn, says "Do this" and the dragon soul goes "Go acrew yourself" and leads the heroes of the horn off to find the nearest maccas.

 

Thats a no, i dont buy that from me by the way.

 

The Banner is an important symbol, like Justice is a symbol. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter if Justice is a golden sword 8 feet long, a heron marked-power wrought dagger or a regular sword; so long as Artur Hawkwing wields it, it is 'Justice'. It's all a matter of how 'Justice' is/was remembered.

 

Actually i said banners were important to people, not that the Banner is important.

 

C'mon Luckers. If we were old buddies and we meet every -say- couple of hundred years in different settings, different circumstances to go bowling and you can remember them all, the first thing you would say is "Hey Mik, you did bring your bowling ball, right?". No, you say "How goes, bud! Long time no see? How's the wife?" You'd assume I brought that Ball I always use, because well,..I always do and we're going bowling after all!

 

No, I don't. I'd say "So, lets play, you got the ball right?"

 

Hawkwing does not do this, he is uncertain about what holds him, which shows what holds him is not functionally nessasary in the actions of the horn.

 

 

What could be 'holding back' Hawkwing? Hawkwing didn't say "something is wrong" for nostalgic or sentimental reasons. That just doesn't fit. Certainly not with their convo  right before, that did 'breathe' the atmosphere of a nostalgic reunion of old friends.

No. "Something was wrong", because the Dragons Banner didn't fly, like Hawkwing said. Simple as that.

 

It absolutely fits for sentimental reasons--indeed if what stopped hawkwing was not personal that conversation makes no sense at all. I've explained the specifics of that.

 

 

Just because Moraine said something, doesn't mean it is true especially about something she has no real reference to. As long as she believes it is true then she can state it. I would take Hawkings statements over Morraine's because he is going off of personal knowledge and not ancient texts that could of been changed over time.

 

I'd take Hawkwings comments over Moiraine's any second of the day. But I don't have to, because Hawkwings comments do not disagree with Moiraine's.

 

By the way your argument about Moiraine having been misinformed is problematic. Moiraine stated this in contradiction of the widely held belief--which reqiures that for her to have thought it true she would have had to have read a text that clearly stated it. Which means there is a text that clearly stated it. This is not misperception on her part--she changed her view at one stage from the common to the uncommon, that requires a distinct source telling her his.

 

From there, yes, old texts can be altered--but why? Who would write such a silly and pointless lie?

 

Beyond which you are looking at this in a vacuum. Not only does Moiraine's comments say this, what we know of history says this. Your interpretation of Hawkwing's comments would require we dismiss these two realities as falsified (one having come from RJ's lips) AND would require a reality that is absurd--im talking of the use of the banner--a stylized dragon on a piece of cloth been nessasary to use the horn? Why?

 

Logically, we can deduce Hawkwing spoke from emotion, not functional nessesity.

 

As they say you only ever half believe anything an AS tells you =). If I remember right Morraine was trying to scare Mat at the same time (in reference to DF sounding the horn), so while it was a truth Morraine might of had alterior motives. If the last time the horn was blown was before the AoL, and the AS don't even know about the events and general life during the AoL, I take little heed about what an AS says about the horn and its workings/requirements

 

Widely held belief states that the Horn can only be used by the Light. Moiraine stated it bluntly. The combination serve to show that this was not the result of Aes Sedai assumption. Moiraine really did encounter a source of information that exposed clearly enough that the horn worked for any who sounded it that she went against her socialized belief of what the Horn was capable of.

 

The argument that 'you can't trust what an Aes Sedai says' doesn't cut it here.

 

 

It is also stated as the banner and not the dragon banner, so it could be that the dragon was added onto the banner later (the banner isn't some random sheet with a dragon placed in it. It is of the same origin as the dragons the aiel are given that comes from the power - at least that was my impression - and I could definitely be wrong about that point, but Rand comments about the material iirc).

 

There is no evidence for any of that--not from an age that had fancloth and streith. The Dragon was a monniker given by the people to LTT when he became warleader for the Light--the banner was made up accordingly.

 

 

And remember Verin made sure Rand had the banner on him, which makes me believe that it is indeed required because of all of the other things Verin has done throughout the series. She is the only person in the series that seems to know all the little ins and outs of what should happen, so when she makes sure Rand has the banner I take it as being important.

 

Moiraine made sure Rand had the banner--and didn't you just caste widespread doubt on anything moiraine did as being uninformed and pointless?

 

Not that I agree-Moiraine's actions were very intentional and intelligent, as a part of her goal of forcing Rand to admit who he was. We know as a fact that Moiraine did not have any intentions of Rand sounding the horn in the near future.

 

As for following the dragon, Hawking is talking about the soul and in Hawkings own words he would recognize him no matter what he looked like (or what he was called at the time). Just because the dragon wasn't called the dragon in the past doesn't mean it wasn't the dragon they followed. LTT is a hero of the pattern and is spun out as needed, and just like the other heros he would of been spun out with many names.

 

LTT is spun out when he needs to fight the Dark One--the Dark One did not touch the pattern at that time.

 

Besides don't you see how that logic shoots your own argument in the foot--if he wasn't the Dragon why would he have a piece of cloth with him with a stylized dragon on it.

 

Hawking states they come to the call of the horn, but must follow the banner and the dragon. Meaning they can come to the call without doing anything further if other requirements aren't met.

 

Hawkwing stated nothing of the sort.

 

You used must in a question. Hawking used must in a statement. Therefore putting it in different context.

 

My friend must use his basketball undies if he's to win. Which is so clearly not a functional reality of them actually winning.

 

And that must we thing was a joke, not a part of the argument.

 

Must-

–auxiliary verb 1. to be obliged or bound to by an imperative requirement: I must keep my word. 

2. to be under the necessity to; need to: Animals must eat to live. 

3. to be required or compelled to, as by the use or threat of force: You must obey the law. 

4. to be compelled to in order to fulfill some need or achieve an aim: We must hurry if we're to arrive on time. 

5. to be forced to, as by convention or the requirements of honesty: I must say, that is a lovely hat. 

6. to be or feel urged to; ought to: I must buy that book. 

7. to be reasonably expected to; is bound to: It must have stopped raining by now. She must be at least 60. 

8. to be inevitably certain to; be compelled by nature: Everyone must die. 

–verb (used without object) 9. to be obliged; be compelled: Do I have to go? I must, I suppose. 

10. Archaic. (sometimes used with ellipsis of go, get, or some similar verb readily understood from the context): We must away. 

–adjective 11. necessary; vital: A raincoat is must clothing in this area. 

–noun 12. something necessary, vital, or required: This law is a must

 

True people don't always use it properly, but not a person of Hawking's background when talking about what is needed before he can start a fight due to conditions placed on the heroes of the horn. He didn't say we would perfer to follow, or it makes us feel better to follow. He also tried to charge into battle, but couldn't. There was a murmur from all of the heroes present as well, which to me made it appear as though they were wondering the exact same thing. Lastly he included that they must follow the dragon; I could see your point if it was just the banner that hawking was referencing, but he also included a person.

 

He wasn't using it improperly. He felt emotionally bound in that situation to follow the Dragon and that in light of that the banner should fly. The use of 'must' there is a perfectly normal and accurate inflection.

 

Absolutes are a pain for this reason, and you could be right, but it would be slopy writting if that were the case given the characters involved. At least must isn't as bad as when people use all =).

 

In what way is it sloppy writing? Do you claim that personal or psychological impetus are in some way innaccurate when expressed as such?

 

Forgive me, but that seems unilateral and a tad selfserving.

 

The reality is Hawkwings comment has two completely viable interpretations--yet from alternate sources--Moiraine and RJ--we can deduce which is accurate.

 

because unless you can find proof in writting to contradict what Hawking states in tGH I won't change my mind

 

Yet again, nothing Hawkwing stated needs to be contradicted. It's not a case of 'your right, or else Hawkwing lied'.

 

And there is proof. I've stated it. RJ stated it.

 

Regarding the Horn, and what happened at Falme, you all miss a quite important thing here. Look at Rand fight with Ishamael, it was displayed in the sky all over the place. That was something done by the Wheel, in order to force Rand to announce to the world that he was TDR. How hrad would it be for the Wheel to stop the Heroes from moving in order to further ensure that goal is reached?

 

It was not nostalgia, it is quite clear from Hawkwings words that he and the other Heroes can not move. It is only after he discovers this that it dawns on him that perhaps they should pull out the banner.

 

That was not something singularily done by the Wheel--the softening of reality in play by the sounding of the horn as well as the effects of Rand's ta'maral'ailen played their part. They made reality so soft that the general unconcious pushing of the wheel's weaving flowed so dramatically out.

 

That being said i do disagree that Hawkwing's comment was not personal.

 

All of that is personal opinion mind you, and in a gray area that i doubt we will ever see proven. I'd have no problem if your idea for Hawkwing's actions came out to be true, they make logical sense. I just like mine more. :)

 

Don't blame me. I didn't write that scene.

 

Fact remains; the heroes needed the Dragon & his banner to duke it out with the Seanchan.

 

No bud, it doesn't. Sorry.

 

Fact remains; the inscription on the Horn talks about it's true purpose;

Having the Heroes there for Tarmon Gai'don. Who's always there too?

Do the math.

 

Alright. Horn used at a time when dragon doesn't exist. Horn worked.

 

Math ended.

 

Why are people ignoring this? The horn was used at a time when the Dragon did not walk the earth--im sorry if that inconveniently disproves your hopes, but thats the way things are.

 

 

[Fryn]

Why are people ignoring this? The horn was used at a time when the Dragon did not walk the earth--im sorry if that inconveniently disproves your hopes, but thats the way things are.

 

We aren't ignoring it. The dragon would either be spun out when the horn is used (I know you don't like that reasoning though), or he would be present under a different name. Even if he isn't called the dragon he would still be the dragon to the heroes of the horn. Just as Rand thought of each of the heroes by hundreds of different names; some that were really different.

 

 

As for the use of must, it is just one of those words like all which are sweeping and absolute. It is very easy to use them wrong, so it is a possibility that it was just missused in this passage, but I had the feeling that it wasn't. This has just stuck with me from when I used to write lots of essays. The first thing you usually learn is not to use generalizations that you can not back up. Your example of must is completely different by the way because it is used in conjunction with a condition. A better example of must would be the sun must rise in the morning and must set in the evening. It is always true (on Earth =p).

 

The question is whether Hawking was using must as a feeling or as a requirement. Based on the fight afterwards and on the crowds reaction I believe he was using must as a requirement. We have only read the events of the horn being used once; and during that section it does look like it is a requirement.

 

RJs statement does not invalidate our view on the banner and the dragon being required either. We know the horn was used prior to the age of legends, but we have no clue if the dragon soul was or was not there in the flesh.

 

Do you recall the section where morraine mentions a DF can use the horn? I am kind of interested in her direct words and what others assume she meant. I am also interested in teh wording because I am pretty sure it contradicts what hawking stated. If Morraine states the heroes will follow a DF's orders and Hawking says they must follow the dragon then that is a direct contradiction.

[Mik]

I got very limited time right now, but I'd just like to point out two things;

 

Hawking states they come to the call of the horn, but must follow the banner and the dragon. Meaning they can come to the call without doing anything further if other requirements aren't met.

Hawkwing stated nothing of the sort.

Excuse me?

 

Erm... Hawkwing talking:

“You [Rand] are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.”

 

Fact remains; the inscription on the Horn talks about it's true purpose;

Having the Heroes there for Tarmon Gai'don. Who's always there too?

Do the math.

 

Alright. Horn used at a time when dragon doesn't exist. Horn worked.

 

Math ended.

 

Why are people ignoring this? The horn was used at a time when the Dragon did not walk the earth--im sorry if that inconveniently disproves your hopes, but thats the way things are.

Did you not read my first responce to your post?

If the Dragon 'does not walk the earth', the Horn summons the Dragon Soul also. And for all we know, with Banner... like the rest of the Heroes show up with the weaponry that marks them. (Bri-bow, Hawkwing-Justice)

 

If the Dragon (soul) would not exist, the Wheel has been broken.

 

And if the Horn was used when the Dragon Soul was spun out but not as 'the Dragon' and the Heroes did battle, can you please quote that bit for me?

[lordofsoup]

the dragon theretically has to come when the horn is blown if he is not currently alive, because all taveren have to, but if he could channel while he was not alive, he could come into the waking world

 

@which heros are Mat and Perrin when they are not alive?

[helmethero]

I don't think they are Heroes of the Horn, yet.  Artur Hawkwing probably would have mentioned it to them, like he did Rand.  He seemed entirely unfamiliar with them though.

[Blightmaster]

ok origins of horn r kinda sketchy to me, mat was first to blow it in this age since it was in eotw and couldnt be found, it didnt appear in last age cause it was lost, how hell are there so many stories about it, id like to actually hear one of these great hunt for the horn stories instead of it just saying thom recited it.

 

on another note r u ppl forgetting ishy/bal talking to rand/mat/perrin in their dreams about fact that they have fought since beggining of time in EVERY AGE, age before the age of legends yeah they did fight. noone in book talks about that age cause well tooo bloody long ago and noone knows what happened.  and ishy also states that in the past the he has fought for him in death and life as well as against him, think its great hunt book or w/e but he says that in the past the dragon has accepted his offer and not fought him

 

also on another side note r the forsaken like the HOTH for the DO since ishy seems to remember back in time( maybe the DO told him idk)

[Mr Ares]

the dragon theretically has to come when the horn is blown if he is not currently alive, because all taveren have to

No no no no no no no. The Heroes come to the Horn. Not ta'veren. The two are not the same thing (although it is possible to be both).

@which heros are Mat and Perrin when they are not alive?

None, in all probability. Even if they were, we have no way to identify them, given the only names of Heroes we know are those given at Falme, and Mat and Perrin were not identified as Heroes then.

 

how hell are there so many stories about it?

A lot of people have spent a lot of time looking for it.

 

on another note r u ppl forgetting ishy/bal talking to rand/mat/perrin in their dreams about fact that they have fought since beggining of time in EVERY AGE, age before the age of legends yeah they did fight. noone in book talks about that age cause well tooo bloody long ago and noone knows what happened.  and ishy also states that in the past the he has fought for him in death and life as well as against him, think its great hunt book or w/e but he says that in the past the dragon has accepted his offer and not fought him

Ishamael is a lying liar who lies.

 

also on another side note r the forsaken like the HOTH for the DO since ishy seems to remember back in time( maybe the DO told him idk)

No. They are a bunch of people who decided to help Shai'tan in the AoL. Their souls are not bound to him in the same way the Heores are bound to the Wheel.

 

Hawking states they come to the call of the horn, but must follow the banner and the dragon. Meaning they can come to the call without doing anything further if other requirements aren't met.

Hawkwing stated nothing of the sort.

Excuse me? Erm... Hawkwing talking:

You [Rand] are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.

That quote doesn't say what you think it says. It does not say that if the Dragon and the banner aren't present, the Heroes can stand around doing nothing. All it says is that on this occasion, with the Dragon and the banner present, they must follow the Dragon. "The weave of this moment is set." This, but it makes no mention of any other.

 

As for the use of must, it is just one of those words like all which are sweeping and absolute. It is very easy to use them wrong, so it is a possibility that it was just missused in this passage, but I had the feeling that it wasn't.

Definition of must (which you posted): "6. to be or feel urged to; ought to: I must buy that book." Accurate usage of term, part of dictionary definition, does not necessitate anything other than psycholgical requirement on Hawkwing's part to follow banner. If RJ used must in this way it would be quite correct. Your interpretaion of Hawkwing's words is not the only one, but in conjunction with other evidence yours is ruled out. Simple fact.

 

Do you recall the section where morraine mentions a DF can use the horn? I am kind of interested in her direct words and what others assume she meant. I am also interested in teh wording because I am pretty sure it contradicts what hawking stated. If Morraine states the heroes will follow a DF's orders and Hawking says they must follow the dragon then that is a direct contradiction.

No it isn't. Not if following Rand and the banner is a one time requirement, or an emotional rather than physical requirement, to give two possible explanations. The problem only arises when you hold to your belief that Hawkwing meant what you think he meant and refuse to consider any other explanation. Therefore, you see a contradiction. From all the evidence, we can put together a view with no contradictions - that there is usually no physical requirement to follow Dragon and banner, and that if a Darkfriend blew the Horn the Heroes would follow him or her.

 

He is the reborn version of that same Dragon; he needs that specific Banner.

He is always a rebirth of the same Dragon soul, it is always the same, therefore he would always need the same banner by your reasoning. But why would they need the banner?

 

Back to the original topic my gut tells me the twins will be Avi's children

Elayne is having twins, Avi is having quads. Why would they be Avi's?

 

but a man can have his own views right? RIGHT!

Right. But whether or not he should is an entirely different question.

 

It has the same problem that the Aiel dragon tattoos do; where does the concept come from

Where does it come from in our world?

[Mik]

...[snip]...

 

Hawking states they come to the call of the horn, but must follow the banner and the dragon. Meaning they can come to the call without doing anything further if other requirements aren't met.

Hawkwing stated nothing of the sort.

Excuse me? Erm... Hawkwing talking:

“You [Rand] are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.”

That quote doesn't say what you think it says. It does not say that if the Dragon and the banner aren't present, the Heroes can stand around doing nothing. All it says is that on this occasion, with the Dragon and the banner present, they must follow the Dragon. "The weave of this moment is set." This, but it makes no mention of any other.

Not quite. When Hawkwing felt something held him back, he asks specifically for the Dragon Banner straight away; no long thinking..no doubt; "Have you the Banner?"

Doesn't look like a situation where they have to figure out what's keeping them this time around... it just looks like a situation where the Dragon doesn't know what is expected of him.

Heck, even Brigite -who can't seem to keep her mouth shut- doesn't ask ".. or maybe a Crown, Arty....like with that other weave of the moment.".. Nope.. just murmering in anticipation.

 

Here's the situation:

1. Horn blown (by whomever, Mat in this case) & opens a portal to TAR (of a sorts).

2. A part of TAR and this world mix enabling the Heroes to partially exit TAR (that causes the fight to be seen in the sky & the link between Rand/Ishy fight & Heroes/Seanchan figh)

3. Time stands still ("we have all of time") Heroes hear the call & come to it's calling -like they always do-.

4. They slap the Dragon on the back "how-have-you-been-mate-style" (there's literally time enough) and realise 'the Dragon doesn't know himself yet'.

5. The Dragon tells them what to do & -as always- the Heroes do what the Champion of the Light asks of them.

6. When they want to go do the Dragons bidding they instantly know what is keeping them; "Hey Mr. Dragon.. whop out your Banner, so we can do our stuff".

7. Banner is produced & they go their thing.

(Usually, I think 6 & 7 won't happen, because the Dragon 'knows and -literally- recongnises himself'. This time around, Hawkwing has to help the Dragon out)

 

Are you suggesting Hawkwing guessed in a spilt-sec they needed 'a banner' this time around?

 

He is the reborn version of that same Dragon; he needs that specific Banner.

He is always a rebirth of the same Dragon soul' date=' it is always the same, therefore he would always need the same banner by your reasoning. But why would they need the banner?[/quote']You've misinterpreted what I said. Therefor your reasoning about my misinterpreted reasoning is wrong:

The Heroes recognise this Dragon incarnation as Lews Therin. Therefor they need LTT's Banner. Rand is LTT Reborn and therefor needs LTT's banner. That is what I was saying.

Rand does not need the banner of the Dragon(-soul) in the pervious 'third' Age who was called Pipo the Clown and had a small banner with a big red nose that happened to be the Dragon Banner that Age. In that Age, the Heroes followed that banner into battle.

The Heroes always need the Dragon and his banner of that Age if he is spun out.

If he hasn't been spun out yet, the Dragon rides out of TAR with the Heroes as he was last remembered with his banner.

If the Dragon-soul hasn't been sput out as "the Dragon" but has been spun out, then there won't be a Tarmon Gai-don and the Heroes aren't needed at the 'last, lorn fight', because there simply won't be one.

The Dragon is always there, when the Dark One is in the world. Simple as that.

 

but a man can have his own views right? RIGHT!

Right. But whether or not he should is an entirely different question.

We agree there. :)

[Fryn]

I'll hold my thoughts on Hawkings comments, just like you will =). Its pot/kettle saying I won't look at the other side. Either way you look at it the story works, and until we see more examples of the horn in action either is plausible. The closest thing that might contradict it is a statement by RJ not in the series with little detail on the actual outcome and behaviour at that time (no info on who blew it, who was present, or which heroes were called, etc). One theory has the horn as having the same requirements everytime, while the other lets the pattern change the way the horn works every single time.

 

quote Mr Ares

Quote from: Fryn

Back to the original topic my gut tells me the twins will be Avi's children

Elayne is having twins, Avi is having quads. Why would they be Avi's?

 

Min thinks that there is something odd about avi's babies. It could be that avi is only having twins but she is seeing the exta souls from the heroes aka rand/ltt. It could be Elayne's as well or some one elses kids for that matter.

 

BTW this also brings up an interesting point... either Mat and Perrin are heroes of the horn or this is a very special turning of the wheel (first, last, or balance point). They have too large of an impact to just be random schmucks on a one time deal. By that I mean if you looked at the pattern with and without them they wouldn't be close enough. Hawkings comments about the pattern sometimes adding new heroes to the horn is also counter intuitive in a world that sees little change with every turning, since the heroes seem rather relevant to me and seem to make large changes when they are active. If there are no major deviations from different turnings, why would heroes be added at all after teh first turning?

[Mr Ares]

Not quite. When Hawkwing felt something held him back, he asks specifically for the Dragon Banner straight away; no thinking..no doubt; "Have you the Banner?"

Doesn't look like a situation where they have to figure out what's keeping them this time around...

No, that's it exactly. It makes no mention of any other time. And he tried to ride out without the banner. Why would he do this if he knew it was needed? Because he didn't know, even though Rand was there, perhaps? Which would mean it isn't always a requirement.

 

He is the reborn version of that same Dragon; he needs that specific Banner.

He is always a rebirth of the same Dragon soul' date=' it is always the same, therefore he would always need the same banner by your reasoning. But why would they need the banner?[/quote']You've misinterpreted what I said. Therefore your reasoning about my misinterpreted reasoning is wrong: The Heroes recognise this Dragon incarnation as Lews Therin. Therefore they need LTT's Banner. Rand is LTT Reborn and therefore need LTT's banner. And not the banner of the Dragon(-soul) in the previous 'third' Age who was called Pipo the Clown and had a small banner with a big red nose that happened to be the Dragon Banner that Age. In that Age, the Heroes followed that banner into battle.

The Heroes always need the Dragon and his banner of that Age if he is spun out. If he hasn't been spun out yet, the Dragon rides out of TAR with the Heroes as he was last remembered with his banner.

That they always need the banner of any incarnation of the Dragon is without any basis in fact. That he would come with the last remembered banner, or any banner at all is without basis in fact. That they always need the Dragon is without basis in fact. And your reasoning runs thusly: The Dragon is spun out as Rand and thus the Heroes need Lews Therin's magic banner in order to follow the Dragon, rather than the magic banner of the Dragon, or of Rand. Which doesn't explain why they need a magic banner. The Dragon soul is always the Dragon soul, it is always the rebirth of the same soul. And yet only LTT's version of the magic banner is sufficiently magic to make the Heroes follow? The Dragon soul is always the same. So either the banner is able to change and is thus unimportant, beyond its ability to inspire people to follow and announce the rebirth of the Dragon, or it is always the same, and it is always the same magic banner that is needed, with the same magic picture. It is always the same soul reborn, it is always the same Dragon. There is no requirement for the Dragon to always be there, nor for the Heroes to always follow him, nor for there always to be the same banner, etc., etc. You continue to invent requirements rather than just accepting what was written.

but a man can have his own views right? RIGHT!

Right. But whether or not he should is an entirely different question.

We agree there. :)

Then I shall ask it: Should a man have his own views? Discuss.

 

I'll hold my thoughts on Hawkings comments, just like you will =). Its pot/kettle saying I won't look at the other side.

No. There is a fundamental inequality in that both sides are not backed up by the same amount of facts. Hawkwing's statement could have meant what you thought it did, but other evidence rules that out, while their is no other evidence to support your claim. Therefore, not the same, not a pot/kettle situation. And I do look at the other side. I look at the other side and find it wanting.

Either way you look at it the story works, and until we see more examples of the horn in action either is plausible.

Only if you accept Hawkwing's comments in isolation. In combination with the other facts it does not work. Because they will follow a Drakfriend. Either the Dragon is a Darkfriend, or they will follow anyone who blows the Horn, absent other factors (like the Wheel forcing Rand to be the Dragon).

 

Back to the original topic my gut tells me the twins will be Avi's children

Elayne is having twins, Avi is having quads. Why would they be Avi's?

Min thinks that there is something odd about avi's babies. It could be that avi is only having twins but she is seeing the exta souls from the heroes aka rand/ltt. It could be Elayne's as well or some one elses kids for that matter.

So she thinks Avi will have four babies at once because they are Heroes of the Horn? They count as two, do they? Or can't Min count? Avi will have four at once. Quads. Not twins, or two of Elayne's, or twins with double-barrelled names. Four babies. Four souls. At the same time. With something odd about them.

 

BTW this also brings up an interesting point... either Mat and Perrin are heroes of the horn or this is a very special turning of the wheel (first, last, or balance point). They have too large of an impact to just be random schmucks on a one time deal. By that I mean if you looked at the pattern with and without them they wouldn't be close enough. Hawkings comments about the pattern sometimes adding new heroes to the horn is also counter intuitive in a world that sees little change with every turning, since the heroes seem rather relevant to me and seem to make large changes when they are active. If there are no major deviations from different turnings, why would heroes be added at all after teh first turning?

So, Mat and Perrin are Heroes because...? Each turning of the Wheel is different. Each version of an Age looks similar from a distance, but potentially very different up close. There is no need for Mat and Perrin to be anything other than what they are - two guys with a destiny that involves saving the world. I don't see why this turning has to be ultra-special, just because you want it to be. Heroes would be added because they are necessary. A new Hero is needed, someone fits the bill, that person is chained to the Wheel, soun out again and again. There is no reason why Mat or Perrin should be, nor why they should become so during this turning.

[Mik]

Not quite. When Hawkwing felt something held him back, he asks specifically for the Dragon Banner straight away; no thinking..no doubt; "Have you the Banner?"

Doesn't look like a situation where they have to figure out what's keeping them this time around...

No, that's it exactly. It makes no mention of any other time. And he tried to ride out without the banner. Why would he do this if he knew it was needed? Because he didn't know, even though Rand was there, perhaps? Which would mean it isn't always a requirement.

Explain me one thing then;

How did Hawkwing knew to ask the Dragon straight away when he felt he was held back; "Have you the banner?"

This more then implies Hawkwing knew exactly what they needed. He just realised he needed to ask it of this particular Dragon, because LTT 'did not know himself'. (too true)

 

I think it's really funny how you use the fact that Hawkwing can't charge without the banner flying, as a reason he didn't know he needed it! If he didn't know, he wouldn't have asked for it the moment after he felt he was held and he never ever would have guessed he needed a banner!

 

If RJ wouldn't have put that bit in, I bet you would be saying "We don't know for a fact that it's true that the Heroes must follow, because for all we know, the Heroes could have charged anyway and Hawkwing said that for dramatical purposes only"

By reading with our own eyes that 'something' (the dragon banner) holds the Heroes, we know that Hawkwings words are meant literally:

"We show up because the Horn gave us a wake-up call, but we deliver punches for the Dragon and we do so behind his banner"

 

He is the reborn version of that same Dragon; he needs that specific Banner.

He is always a rebirth of the same Dragon soul' date=' it is always the same, therefore he would always need the same banner by your reasoning. But why would they need the banner?[/quote']You've misinterpreted what I said. Therefore your reasoning about my misinterpreted reasoning is wrong: The Heroes recognise this Dragon incarnation as Lews Therin. Therefore they need LTT's Banner. Rand is LTT Reborn and therefore need LTT's banner. And not the banner of the Dragon(-soul) in the previous 'third' Age who was called Pipo the Clown and had a small banner with a big red nose that happened to be the Dragon Banner that Age. In that Age, the Heroes followed that banner into battle.

The Heroes always need the Dragon and his banner of that Age if he is spun out. If he hasn't been spun out yet, the Dragon rides out of TAR with the Heroes as he was last remembered with his banner.

That they always need the banner of any incarnation of the Dragon is without any basis in fact.

How so? The only time we see the Horn used, it was needed and asked for specifically by the people who always show up; the Heroes.

And all that without even the slightest hint from anyone in Rands party that Rand even had that banner with him.

All facts, so a firm basis, I'd say.

 

That he would come with the last remembered banner,.../ /..is without basis in fact.

But it is implied by how the Heroes themselves show up. Hawkwing with the one weapon that marks him thus; Justice.

Brigitte with the bow that marks her Brigitte; her silver bow.

Etc.

Considering all that & considering the fact that Hawkwing did specifically ask the Dragon for his Dragon Banner, gives it a strong basis. Not fact indeed, but to say it's not true because it's not spelled out for you is cutting corners really short.

 

That they always need the Dragon is without basis in fact.

Same answer basically for different reasons.

Considering all of the quotes below & considering the fact that Hawkwing did specifically ask the Dragon for his Dragon Banner, gives it a strong basis. Not fact indeed, but to say it's not true because it's not spelled out for you is cutting corners really short again.

 

“It [The Horn] has to be there at the Last Battle,” Mat said, licking his lips

..../ /...

“Something is wrong here. Something holds me [Hawkwing].” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him.

 

“Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner. It filled his hands and hung almost to his stallion’s knees. The murmur among the heroes rose.

 

“The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said. “You are here. The banner is here. [AND THUS] The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.”

“I am Birgitte,” the woman said, leaning on her bow. ../ /... I remember the lives I have lived as if they were books well-read, the longer gone dimmer than the nearer, but I remember well when I fought at Lews Therin’s side.

.../ /..

According to the precepts [ohhh, there's a Code of Conduct!], we may speak to none who know they are in Tel’aran’rhiod. And yet, evil walks the dream as well as the world of flesh; you who fight it attract me. Even knowing I can do almost nothing, I find myself wanting to help you. But I cannot. It violates the precepts, precepts which have held me [and all the Heroes of the Horn, according to Gaidals reaction. Again, this isn't FACT. It's called logic] for so many turns of the Wheel that in my oldest, faintest memories I know I had already lived a hundred times, or a thousand. Speaking to you violates precepts as strong as law.”

.../ /..

The Shadow rises again, Gaidal. It rises here. We must fight it. That is the reason we were bound to the Wheel.” [so, there's a Code of Conduct with presepts for the Heroes stronger then Law *whistles*. That's pretty hefty]

 

“When the Horn calls us, we will fight. When the Wheel weaves us, we will fight. Not until then!”

"In the last, lorn fight [Tarmon Gai'don]

'gainst the fall of long night,

the mountains stand guard,

and the dead shall be ward,

for the grave is no bar to my call."

Who is pivotal at Tarmon Gai'don? The Dragon.

What do the Heroes always fight? Why are they Bound to the Wheel? Because they are meant to fight the Shadow.

The Heroes have precepts as strong as law. Two of those were shown to us at Falme, specifically stated by Hawkwing;

"We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

And your reasoning runs thusly: The Dragon is spun out as Rand and thus the Heroes need Lews Therin's magic banner in order to follow the Dragon, rather than the magic banner of the Dragon, or of Rand.

You missed the vital part -again- Mr Ares;

Rand is the Dragon Reborn. So yes, he needs the Banner the Heroes recongnise as the Dragon Banner of this Age; LTT's Banner. In case you haven’t noticed; the heroes call Rand “Lews Therin”.

You just don't want to see, you want to confuse.

 

Which doesn't explain why they need a magic banner. The Dragon soul is always the Dragon soul, it is always the rebirth of the same soul. And yet only LTT's version of the magic banner is sufficiently magic to make the Heroes follow?

The Soul alone does not a Dragon make, Mr Ares.  :)

Lews Therin is the Dragon this time around. I can't explain why they need a banner any more then you do, but hey.. go ask Hawkwing! He specifically said that not having the Dragon Banner flying, held them all back. He asked for it in the book.

 

The Dragon soul is always the same.

Correct! *claps*  ;)

 

So either the banner is able to change and is thus unimportant,…

Ewww. Now that’s a nasty bit of drawing wrong conclusions. Just because the banner can have a different shape/ form/ drawing/ whatever, makes it less then the Dragon Banner?? No way!

In the same way that having a Dragon Soul with different mind/ body with a different back-ground each turning makes him less then The Dragon!

The ability to have a different look (or other different properties) has nothing to do with it's importance. Your reasoning is flawed right there. The rest of it needs reconsideration on your part.

 

You continue to invent requirements rather than just accepting what was written.

Au contraire, mon ami; you just can't accept what was written:

 

Fact; the Heroes of the Horn are bound to the Horn & Wheel, because of their mission is to 'fight the Shadow' as per Brigittes words (anyone out here still believes they will follow a darkfriend into battle??)

Fact; The Horn was used once in the books. And that one time, is all we have to go by.

Fact; That one time, Hawkwing said "We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon"

Fact; Hawkwing didn't just say that for dramatic effect; he couldn't advance without that banner flying.

Fact; Hawkwing specifically asks for the banner straight away when he notices 'something holds him'.

Fact; There are precepts to being a Hero of the Horn 'as strong as law'

Fact; LTT's Banner was stored at the Eye due to foretelling; it has a role to play somewhere. (If you're a sucker for sarcasm , you'd say "it has to do some Magic somewhere")

Fact; The Dragon Banner was stored together with the Horn of Valere. (yes, that could be coincidence, but enough coincidences added together is called a pattern)

 

Put two and two together, please.

And now with understanding the difference between the Dragon & the Dragon Reborn and the fact that 'looks' mean exactly diddly to what items like Hawkwings sword (Justice) & the Dragon’s Banner represent.

 

but a man can have his own views right? RIGHT!

Right. But whether or not he should is an entirely different question.

We agree there. :)

Then I shall ask it: Should a man have his own views? Discuss.

Now. That’s a silly question. Isn’t that what gives a “forum” it’s right of existence?

Different viewpoints being discussed by all. Hehe! Funny!

You said “right”. I still agree.

 

One might hope that discussions like these inspires some to do a re-read or two..?

Fact or fiction: the past -I dunno- 10 years there have been too many parrots, making it appear that 'the majority must be right'?

 

Edit; fixed last quote

[Fryn]

Basis for one time only requirement

Moraine's statements

RJ statement that it was used in a previous age before the AoL (note this does not rule out the other theory because we do not have enough info on what happened at that point)

Reading Hawkings statements as a person using personal feelings over an actual requirement.

 

 

Basis for always needing the abnner/dragon

Hawkings statements

The actual fight. The heroes were losing when rand was losing and winning when rand was. This was the only reason Rand sheathed the sword, if the heroes could win without following his lead he could of just held ishy off while the heroes finished everything. This ties in with Hawkings statement that htey must follow the dragon (in victory or defeat).

 

Those are as far as I can tell the main points. Everything else is conjecture and depending on how you interpret the text. There are probably more, but I am in a rush at the moment.

 

 

Re Avi's babies

Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

Min thinks there is something odd about that not them. Aka something is funky about the viewing of 4 babies. That isn't a person feeling that 4 at once is odd. It is Min herself that says there is something odd about her viewing of 4 babies. Sadly I get the impression we will not see Avi's babies in Amol so... we won't get an answer on this one =(. That said if Min says there is something odd about a viewing it makes me think it isn't as simple as Avi giving birth to 4 babies at once.

[Luckers]

We aren't ignoring it. The dragon would either be spun out when the horn is used (I know you don't like that reasoning though), or he would be present under a different name. Even if he isn't called the dragon he would still be the dragon to the heroes of the horn. Just as Rand thought of each of the heroes by hundreds of different names; some that were really different.

 

Except the Dragon is spun out to fight the Dark One, and the Dark One was not present.

 

And i stand by the first being utterly illogical.

 

As for the use of must, it is just one of those words like all which are sweeping and absolute. It is very easy to use them wrong, so it is a possibility that it was just missused in this passage, but I had the feeling that it wasn't.

 

Yet again, the word was not used wrongly. This is not a case of 'your argument is correct, or Hawkwing mauled the english language.'

 

We argue that Hawkwing said exactly what he meant to say, and meant precisely what he said. No lying, no incorrect verbs.

 

This has just stuck with me from when I used to write lots of essays. The first thing you usually learn is not to use generalizations that you can not back up.

 

Yes, and you also shouldn't use first person expression in an essay.

 

Essay language is not the entirety of the human language, and the usages within it do not negate ulterior uses in alternate situations--nor for that matter make those ulterior usages colloquial or inaccurate. Scholarly discourse should by nature be unemotional, but language and its use is not limited to scholarly discourse, nor bound by its prescripts.

 

Your example of must is completely different by the way because it is used in conjunction with a condition. A better example of must would be the sun must rise in the morning and must set in the evening. It is always true (on Earth =p).

 

No, that would not be a better example--those would both be accurate sentences, but they do not prescribe the extents to which the word 'must' is utilized. An emotional or personal reality can, subjectively, be of similar binding truth to thus permit the utilization of the word must. A lover devoutly declaring he 'must' have his love--its not precisely accruate, but nor is it a misuse of the word.

 

I get it mate--your trying to push the idea hawkwing either meant what you said or was wrong. It's just in no way an accurate presentation.

 

The question is whether Hawking was using must as a feeling or as a requirement. Based on the fight afterwards and on the crowds reaction I believe he was using must as a requirement. We have only read the events of the horn being used once; and during that section it does look like it is a requirement.

 

Except it doesn't. Again, we see Hawkwing start to move, pause, and then be tentative about asking for the banner. Were it a requirement that would not have played out that way.

 

Added to the fact that it directly contradicts historical precedence, and the informed opinion of Moiraine which we know to have come from a viable source....

 

No, my friend, it is not a requirement.

 

RJs statement does not invalidate our view on the banner and the dragon being required either. We know the horn was used prior to the age of legends, but we have no clue if the dragon soul was or was not there in the flesh.

 

Sure we do, the Dark One was unknown in that age, and the banner did not even exist then. You can't get around those things my friend. It's a bit of an 'end of game' moment.

 

Do you recall the section where morraine mentions a DF can use the horn? I am kind of interested in her direct words and what others assume she meant. I am also interested in teh wording because I am pretty sure it contradicts what hawking stated. If Morraine states the heroes will follow a DF's orders and Hawking says they must follow the dragon then that is a direct contradiction.

 

No, it's not. We've discussed this. Hawkwing used the word 'must' to express an emotional impetus. There is no contradiction there--Hawkwing might not have been happy about it, but if commanded by a Darkfriend he would have been forced to act.

 

No contradiction. Which is the point.

 

Quote from: Luckers on November 01, 2008, 12:26:13 AM

Quote

Hawking states they come to the call of the horn, but must follow the banner and the dragon. Meaning they can come to the call without doing anything further if other requirements aren't met.

Hawkwing stated nothing of the sort.

Excuse me?

 

Erm... Hawkwing talking:

Quote

“You [Rand] are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.”

 

You're excused.

 

Seriously, if at this stage you don't understand the realities of the arguments about hawkwings comment, then i can't respond further than that.

 

Did you not read my first responce to your post?

 

I did, and i replied to it. The logic is utterly absurd.

 

Not quite. When Hawkwing felt something held him back, he asks specifically for the Dragon Banner straight away; no long thinking..no doubt; "Have you the Banner?"

Doesn't look like a situation where they have to figure out what's keeping them this time around... it just looks like a situation where the Dragon doesn't know what is expected of him.

Heck, even Brigite -who can't seem to keep her mouth shut- doesn't ask ".. or maybe a Crown, Arty....like with that other weave of the moment.".. Nope.. just murmering in anticipation.

 

Here's the situation:

1. Horn blown (by whomever, Mat in this case) & opens a portal to TAR (of a sorts).

2. A part of TAR and this world mix enabling the Heroes to partially exit TAR (that causes the fight to be seen in the sky & the link between Rand/Ishy fight & Heroes/Seanchan figh)

3. Time stands still ("we have all of time") Heroes hear the call & come to it's calling -like they always do-.

4. They slap the Dragon on the back "how-have-you-been-mate-style" (there's literally time enough) and realise 'the Dragon doesn't know himself yet'.

5. The Dragon tells them what to do & -as always- the Heroes do what the Champion of the Light asks of them.

6. When they want to go do the Dragons bidding they instantly know what is keeping them; "Hey Mr. Dragon.. whop out your Banner, so we can do our stuff".

7. Banner is produced & they go their thing.

(Usually, I think 6 & 7 won't happen, because the Dragon 'knows and -literally- recongnises himself'. This time around, Hawkwing has to help the Dragon out)

 

Are you suggesting Hawkwing guessed in a spilt-sec they needed 'a banner' this time around?

 

Firstly, there is hesitation and uncertainty in the way Hawkwing asked for the banner--as ive stated about eight times.

 

Secondly, they did not need the banner. That's the point mate. Hawkwing wanted it for personal reasons.

 

Either way you look at it the story works, and until we see more examples of the horn in action either is plausible.

 

No, unfortunately it's not. You can't get around the absense of the Dragon and the banner in the previous soundings of the horn.

 

Explain me one thing then;

How did Hawkwing knew to ask the Dragon straight away when he felt he was held back; "Have you the banner?"

This more then implies Hawkwing knew exactly what they needed. He just realised he needed to ask it of this particular Dragon, because LTT 'did not know himself'. (too true)

 

It's been explained many times. The banner was set the feeling of the moment, of course Hawkwing understood that. It was its absense that made him feel strange to begin with.

 

But he still tried to ride without it. The banner was not a functional necessity of using the Horn.

 

I think it's really funny how you use the fact that Hawkwing can't charge without the banner flying, as a reason he didn't know he needed it! If he didn't know, he wouldn't have asked for it the moment after he felt he was held and he never ever would have guessed he needed a banner!

 

Hawkwing could have charged without the banner, and he sure as hell never needed it. He wanted it, for the moment.

 

If RJ wouldn't have put that bit in, I bet you would be saying "We don't know for a fact that it's true that the Heroes must follow, because for all we know, the Heroes could have charged anyway and Hawkwing said that for dramatical purposes only"

By reading with our own eyes that 'something' (the dragon banner) holds the Heroes, we know that Hawkwings words are meant literally:

"We show up because the Horn gave us a wake-up call, but we deliver punches for the Dragon and we do so behind his banner"

 

No, I wouldn't, and i doubt Ares would--RJ's comments about the history of the Horn and Moiraine's comments about its abilities more than prove the issue--this is just us trying to drill it into you that Hawkwing's actions match this--and RJ did put it in, lets not forget that.

 

And i read with my eyes too bud, nothing in that says that Hawkwing meant the words literally. Sorry.

 

Considering all that & considering the fact that Hawkwing did specifically ask the Dragon for his Dragon Banner, gives it a strong basis. Not fact indeed, but to say it's not true because it's not spelled out for you is cutting corners really short.

 

How bout saying that its not true because its directly precluded by both known history and informed opinion?

 

It's not spelled out for a reason bud--its not there at all.

 

RJ statement that it was used in a previous age before the AoL (note this does not rule out the other theory because we do not have enough info on what happened at that point)

 

Yes it does, because a) the Dragon wasn't present, and b) the banner didn't exist. And it wasn't a previous age, it was the age before the age of Legends. The First Age.

 

I'm sorry if i seem so dismissive--but i really cannot understand why anyone can argue this point. It's a done deal.

 

Basis for always needing the abnner/dragon

Hawkings statements

 

By which you imply hawkwings statements help your side and not ours. We fully back hawkwings statement--he said what he said, and it meant what it meant. You keep struggling to put Hawkwing's statements as being on your side--they are ambiguous, that's the point. If they turn out to mean what we think it doesn't mean he lied.

 

We have the confusing point--Hawkwings comment.

 

So it goes.

 

"We must follow the Dragon, and the Banner."

 

1. He meant it as an emotional impetus, a personal desire.

 

Support.

 

Moiraine's statement.

RJ's statment.

 

2. He meant it literally.

 

Support.

 

He said the word 'must'.

I don't see how the fights being linked speaks to one or the other--it effected the seanchan, and taim, and countless others, i see no link being made there for the control of the heroes... but if u want that have that too.

[Mik]

Get over the word 'must' already!

it's not even needed to prove how the Horn works.

 

RJs statement does not invalidate our view on the banner and the dragon being required either. We know the horn was used prior to the age of legends, but we have no clue if the dragon soul was or was not there in the flesh.

Sure we do, the Dark One was unknown in that age, and the banner did not even exist then. You can't get around those things my friend. It's a bit of an 'end of game' moment.

How many times do you need to hear that 'the Dragon can ride out of TAR with the Dragon Banner when he hasn't been spun out'?

What makes you think the Heroes fight when there is no 'Shadow' to fight? When their reason for being tied to Horn & Wheel isn't even in this world.

 

They are not some personal army anyone who toots that Horn can use, you know.

 

Not quite. When Hawkwing felt something held him back, he asks specifically for the Dragon Banner straight away; no long thinking..no doubt; "Have you the Banner?"

Doesn't look like a situation where they have to figure out what's keeping them this time around... it just looks like a situation where the Dragon doesn't know what is expected of him.

Heck, even Brigite -who can't seem to keep her mouth shut- doesn't ask ".. or maybe a Crown, Arty....like with that other weave of the moment.".. Nope.. just murmering in anticipation.

 

Here's the situation:

1. Horn blown (by whomever, Mat in this case) & opens a portal to TAR (of a sorts).

2. A part of TAR and this world mix enabling the Heroes to partially exit TAR (that causes the fight to be seen in the sky & the link between Rand/Ishy fight & Heroes/Seanchan figh)

3. Time stands still ("we have all of time") Heroes hear the call & come to it's calling -like they always do-.

4. They slap the Dragon on the back "how-have-you-been-mate-style" (there's literally time enough) and realise 'the Dragon doesn't know himself yet'.

5. The Dragon tells them what to do & -as always- the Heroes do what the Champion of the Light asks of them.

6. When they want to go do the Dragons bidding they instantly know what is keeping them; "Hey Mr. Dragon.. whop out your Banner, so we can do our stuff".

7. Banner is produced & they go their thing.

(Usually, I think 6 & 7 won't happen, because the Dragon 'knows and -literally- recongnises himself'. This time around, Hawkwing has to help the Dragon out)

 

Are you suggesting Hawkwing guessed in a spilt-sec they needed 'a banner' this time around?

Firstly, there is hesitation and uncertainty in the way Hawkwing asked for the banner--as ive stated about eight times.

Hawkwing does not hesitate; He feels he's being held back and asks the Dragon if he brought his Banner straight away. There is no hesitation whatsover and no uncertainty if he's asking for the right item.

The only uncertainty is; Did the Dragon bring his Banner or not?

 

Secondly, they did not need the banner. That's the point mate. Hawkwing wanted it for personal reasons.

Now that's absurd.

Hawkwing could not charge. "Something holds me"

What's personal about that?

 

Explain me one thing then;

How did Hawkwing knew to ask the Dragon straight away when he felt he was held back; "Have you the banner?"

This more then implies Hawkwing knew exactly what they needed. He just realised he needed to ask it of this particular Dragon, because LTT 'did not know himself'. (too true)

It's been explained many times. The banner was set the feeling of the moment, of course Hawkwing understood that. It was its absense that made him feel strange to begin with.

Yeah right. When you say that 'something holds you' if you want to move, it doesn't have to do with how lovely you feel.

The Banner was a requirement to do battle. A symbol yes, but a necesary one nonetheless.

 

I think it's really funny how you use the fact that Hawkwing can't charge without the banner flying, as a reason he didn't know he needed it! If he didn't know, he wouldn't have asked for it the moment after he felt he was held and he never ever would have guessed he needed a banner!

Hawkwing could have charged without the banner, and he sure as hell never needed it. He wanted it, for the moment.

So, you're saying Hawkwing was lying to the Dragon? You're saying the rest of the Heroes would let him lie? C'mon Luckers. You're the one making stuff up here.

 

If RJ wouldn't have put that bit in, I bet you would be saying "We don't know for a fact that it's true that the Heroes must follow, because for all we know, the Heroes could have charged anyway and Hawkwing said that for dramatical purposes only"

By reading with our own eyes that 'something' (the dragon banner) holds the Heroes, we know that Hawkwings words are meant literally:

"We show up because the Horn gave us a wake-up call, but we deliver punches for the Dragon and we do so behind his banner"

No, I wouldn't, and i doubt Ares would--RJ's comments about the history of the Horn and Moiraine's comments about its abilities more than prove the issue--this is just us trying to drill it into you that Hawkwing's actions match this--and RJ did put it in, lets not forget that.

 

And i read with my eyes too bud, nothing in that says that Hawkwing meant the words literally. Sorry.

So, you go on and on about what 'must' must mean, but you can't accept that when Hawkwing says “Something is wrong here. Something holds me.”, that Hawkwing isn't making stuff up? Nothing is wrong? Nothing actually holds Hawkwing?

 

He could have just shut up and charged off the way he said he would a second ago?

("We will drive these invaders out for you")

 

RJ statement that it was used in a previous age before the AoL (note this does not rule out the other theory because we do not have enough info on what happened at that point)

Yes it does, because a) the Dragon wasn't present, and b) the banner didn't exist.

What part about the Dragon being a Hero of the Horn do you not understand?

In the 1st Age, the Dragon rides out of TAR (how he was remembered) with his Banner (how it was remembered). Like Hawkwing rides out of TAR (how he was remembered) with the tool that marks him Hawkwing; Justice (how it was remembered).

What you are saying is plain wrong.

 

And it wasn't a previous age, it was the age before the age of Legends. The First Age.

How isn't the 1st Age a previous age? You don't have to asnwer that... it's just clutter, like you stating it was used in the 1st Age (and hell, who knows how many Ages before that)

 

I'm sorry if i seem so dismissive--but i really cannot understand why anyone can argue this point. It's a done deal.

I think so too.

 

We have the confusing point--Hawkwings comment.

 

So it goes.

 

"We must follow the Dragon, and the Banner."

 

1. He meant it as an emotional impetus, a personal desire.

You are blissfully forgetting something held him again. That something was amiss.

Certain conditions -presept if you will- weren't met.

Emotial and personal desire are factors you invented.

 

 

[Fryn]

All of the heroes have many names and have been spun out for multiple roles and many times. Except of course the dragon who is only spun out twice a turning to fight the DO right?

 

Which of course is a direct contradiction to Hawkings comment about knowing LTT no matter what form he was in and having fought either with or against him many times. I guess it would still work if Hawking only saw LTT twice a turning, but I didn't get that impression by their talk (or the other heroes). The heroes all commented that LTT was always getting into trouble by having to save women. It to me sounded a heck of a lot more common than just when he was needed for stopping the DO.

 

And as mik pointed out there is no start or end to the WoT so there is no before because it all runs back into itself so saying the horn was made before the banner is completely ridiculous in the WoT timeline. Depending on which age you are looking at means you would have a different reference of what occured first. It is a real chicken or the egg world (Unless you go for the first, last, and balance point theory). At the current age it would appear the horn was before the banner, but if you go to teh age where the horn was actually made, the banner would of been made previously. Just remember for the horn to be made it must be destroyed at some point so it no longer exists when it is created again.

 

Like it or not LTT was present in the earlier age when the horn was used. He at the very least would of been summoned by the call because he is a hero of the pattern.

 

Another timeline of the fight

1. Heroes called.

2. Heroes chit chat

3. Hawking tries to charge but can't (note he doesn't not charge for sentimental reasons)

4. Hawking asks for the banner, and states they follow banner/dragon

5. Heroes fight

6. The fight is 100% dependant on Rand's fight with ishy (If rand loses the battle is lost... note the heroes on their own in this fight will not mean success) - This ties directly into to the heroes must follow the dragon.

 

If the dragon is not needed by the horn, care to explain why the battle and the heroes actions were so dependant on what Rand did?

[Majsju]

What makes you think the Heroes fight when there is no 'Shadow' to fight? When their reason for being tied to Horn & Wheel isn't even in this world.

 

Because fighting the shadow is not the only reason Heroes are bound to the Wheel.

 

Look back at the quote I have already posted once in this thread...

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasnt the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out taveren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one dragon.

 

Now, fighting the shadow would come on top of the list of things to do, since it would be hard for something to cause the Pattern to drift more than the DOs influence. But it is not the only thing.

 

Just look at Falme. The heroes are called to fight against the Seanchan. Now, Seanchan may be a nasty and evil bunch, but they are certainly not the shadow. So apparently they can fight other enemies than the shadow.

 

All of the heroes have many names and have been spun out for multiple roles and many times. Except of course the dragon who is only spun out twice a turning to fight the DO right?

 

There is no way of knowing this. The DO might be influencing the world in other Ages. And the Dragon might have other functions when the DO is not around. There is a quote from RJ suggesting this, but it is unfortunatly unconfirmed, and as such a bit risky to use as evidence of anything.

 

If the dragon is not needed by the horn, care to explain why the battle and the heroes actions were so dependant on what Rand did?

 

Because of the Wheels very specific needs at this specific situation. Rand must proclaim himself the Dragon reborn, and the Wheel would have twisted his arm until it fell off to make sure he did.

If the Wheel can bind souls as Heroes, spit them out as heroes when there is need, it can definitly interfere with how they can act when the need is there.