Shivan the Hunter

[Ireond]

So maybe not to be present at the end, but to be born with the new?

[Fryn]

It's merely whoever blows the horn, isn't it..

huh.. intriguing thought that.

 

It was more than just who blew the horn; a few other requirements are in place. LTT has to be there and the banner. At least thats what Hawking states.

 

They will only follow the banner and the dragon... that said they would follow the banner for good or ill. Or it might be that there is a way they would go against the dragon since he is there if they followed the banner? I could be wrong though, as there are only a few lines on it in TGH when Hawking is talking to the three boys.

[Luckers]

It was more than just who blew the horn; a few other requirements are in place. LTT has to be there and the banner. At least thats what Hawking states.

 

So people tend to assume, however that doesn't make any sense because we know that the Horn had been blown at times when the Dragon did not walk the earth, and when the banner had not even been sown. Besides, pay attention to the way Hawkwing said it--he goes to ride, then pauses. If use of the banner were fundementally required in the use of the horn he wouldn't have started at all--likely wouldn't have bantered with them at the very first--without first saying "You have summoned us so you'd better have the banner. I'd hate to have come all this way for nothing."

 

Hawkwing said what he did out of a sense of nostalgia. Rand, their ancient friend and leader, had called them forth into battle. It was an archetypal moment and Hawkwing felt the drama of it. It was like a sportsman not wanting to play without his lucky socks.

 

Had Rand not had the banner they would have fought anywya, Hawkwing would have just continued to feel piqued.

[Fryn]

"Something is wrong here. Something holds me." Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. "You are here. Have you the banner?" A murmur ran through those behind him.

...

"The pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," Artur Hawking said. "You are here. The banner is here. The weave of the moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the dragon."

 

Hawkings words are they can come to the call of the Horn no matter who blows it, but they MUST follow the banner and the dragon. So no had Rand not had the banner they would not of fought and Rand would of been sol.

 

 

We also have no idea if the horn was blown before when the dragon was not present. We do know that the horn was made before the Age of Legends and was not blown during the AoL with LTT because it was lost at the time. Everything else about the horn is so old that no one really knows much about it, and any stories about it are much like those about how the DO was sealed by the creator. Stories molded over time and age. As for the banner /shrug the banner could be made and remade so that it is present at the right time. Based on the passage cited above though there is a definite link between all three.

[Luckers]

Yes, I've read the words before Fyrn. I specifically commented on the fact that Hawkwing used the word 'must', reiterating that point--much less highlighting it--is hardly a steller breakthrough in the argument. Hawkwing used the words 'must' the same way my friend says he must have his favourite undies on before he plays basketball (yeah, he actually talks about his undies before a game. Gross eh).

 

And the fact remains that if the banner and the Dragon were a functional component of using the Horn he would have brought it up immediately--instead he starts to act, but something specific to that moment catched his attention--specifically that his ancient friend is there leading them into battle, and that it would be only right to do so under his ancient friends banner.

 

We do know that the horn was made before the Age of Legends and was not blown during the AoL with LTT because it was lost at the time. Everything else about the horn is so old that no one really knows much about it, and any stories about it are much like those about how the DO was sealed by the creator. Stories molded over time and age. As for the banner /shrug the banner could be made and remade so that it is present at the right time. Based on the passage cited above though there is a definite link between all three.

 

So your saying the Horn has a component built into it requiring the users have a bit of cloth--any bit of cloth--with a stylized dragon on it for it to work. Sorry mate, thats just rediculous.

 

And we do know the Horn was used in the Age before the Age of Legend--and that the Dragon was not born during that age. So, yes we do know the Horn has been used without the Dragon.

 

Hawkwing was being sentimental. He's a human being, they do that sometimes, especially when it comes to things like battles. Banners are important in those sort of situations. But they arn't magical components of the Horn's ability to function.

[Fryn]

Have to agree to disagree then =). Must is an absolute and the way I have always read it has been that Hawking was speaking the truth. Basically I got the feeling that if the horn was blown by a dark friend the heros would be summoned, but would then follow the dragon and the banner. Also there was a reason that the banner was with the horn with the eotw, at least imo. Also Hawking states that the heros can be summoned without the banner or the dragon, however that they must follow the dragon and banner. So maybe they can go into battle following someone else, but if the dragon shows up as their opponents they will follow him instead.

 

I understand how some can get before things like battles and sports events, but this to me was written differently. Where are you getting your information about the horn being used and the heros fighting in a previous age without the dragon (or the soul of the dragon)?

 

Now you are not thinking about the way WoT works. There is no begining and no end. Depending on when you look at things the dragon could come before the horn. The dragon in a previous age (5th or 1st or 2nd) might of constructed the horn and put the limitation on requiring a banner that was around at teh same time. Just because the horn was in the AoL before the dragon, doesnt mean the horn was made before the dragon soul was present in all ages.

 

For a more interesting twist... body swap theory... Rand and Mordin are swapped and Mat blows the horn. Mordin is in Rand's body with the banner... who do the heroes follow into battle?

[Luckers]

Have to agree to disagree then =).

 

Must we?

 

See what i did there? Yes, I hate myself.  ;D

 

Must is an absolute and the way I have always read it has been that Hawking was speaking the truth.

 

He was speaking the truth, but it was an emotional need that bound him, not a functional aspect of the horn. That it was a feeling doesn't make the use of the word must a lie--it makes it a tad hyperbolic, true, but I think you underestimate the significance of banners... the banner represented the honour of the force, represented its nature. The bannerman was accounted one of the most heroic figures in a battle. People hung the banners of their defeated foes--it was symbolic of the entire confrontation.

 

. Basically I got the feeling that if the horn was blown by a dark friend the heros would be summoned, but would then follow the dragon and the banner.

 

Based on what?

 

See this is exactly my point--I understand how that comment can be percieved to mean the Heroes only follow the Dragon and the banner, but by every other bit of evidence we have that is not true. Moiraine's direct comment, which contridicted the common belief that heroes only answered the lights call (meaning she had a specific source to suggest it). The fact that the Horn was blown in times before the banner existed, and when the Dragon soul was wallowing away in TAR.

 

Hawkwings very method of speaking of it indicates this was a personal need specific to the moment. He is uncertain as to what holds him--if the banner were mandetory he wouldn't be uncertain.

 

The way he said it, the rest of the evidence--it precludes your explanation.

 

there was a reason that the banner was with the horn with the eotw, at least imo.

 

Yes, it was intentionally placed there to be found by Rand because of a foretelling, doesn't mean there is a link between them any more than there is a link between the seal and either the horn or the banner. They were put there by those that knew Rand would need all three, and by those who knew Rand would be the one to find them. The common thread between them all is Rand, not each other.

 

Also Hawking states that the heros can be summoned without the banner or the dragon, however that they must follow the dragon and banner. So maybe they can go into battle following someone else, but if the dragon shows up as their opponents they will follow him instead.

 

Hawkwing stated nothing of the sort.

 

Where are you getting your information about the horn being used and the heros fighting in a previous age without the dragon (or the soul of the dragon)?

 

RJ stated that it was sounded in the Age before the Age of Legends, but lost before the Age of Legends began. The Dark One was not free or active in the Age before the Age of Legends, so the Dragon wasn't around either.

 

More to the point the Dragon banner was made during the Age of Legends when LTT was given the monniker.

 

Now you are not thinking about the way WoT works. There is no begining and no end. Depending on when you look at things the dragon could come before the horn. The dragon in a previous age (5th or 1st or 2nd) might of constructed the horn and put the limitation on requiring a banner that was around at teh same time. Just because the horn was in the AoL before the dragon, doesnt mean the horn was made before the dragon soul was present in all ages.

 

My thinking is quite clear. The Dragon was not there during previous soundings of the horn, nor was the banner.

 

For a more interesting twist... body swap theory... Rand and Mordin are swapped and Mat blows the horn. Mordin is in Rand's body with the banner... who do the heroes follow into battle?

 

Mat. They have no onus to either Rand or the banner. They might feel shitty about it, but that's the way it plays.

[Edvar alGiven]

Heres a thought to consider. Perhaps Shivan is Ishamael. He was there. He could have placed himself among them as a past self. He later styles himself as a hunter, or a ninja of sorts when he follows Sammael and Graendal. Also, it could be argued that he, as Elan Morin Tedronai heralded the end of the Age of Legends and the beginning of the Collapse. In fact, I believe it states in the Guidebook that his announcement that he followed the Shadow did officially begin the Collapse. And as stated before, who says he has to be good? Hawkwing said he had faced LTT as many times as he had stood beside him. And I am quite sure Ishy said almost exactly the same thing. Not sure about his sister though. I had originally thought it might be Gawyn and Elayne, but neither could have been there when the Horn was sounded. Might be a wild theory, but I think it at least deserves some consideration.

[Mik]

It was more than just who blew the horn; a few other requirements are in place. LTT has to be there and the banner. At least thats what Hawking states.

 

So people tend to assume, however that doesn't make any sense because we know that the Horn had been blown at times when the Dragon did not walk the earth, and when the banner had not even been sown.

So? That actually makes it eassier for the conditions of the Dragon's presence & Dragon Banners presence to be met!

 

When the Dragon does not walk the earth, the Dragon Soul is 'wallowing away in TAR' as you put it. What does the Horn do? Exactly; it will summon him. And hey, if Hawkwing can carry Justice, and Brigitte her silver bow, then the Dragon can carry his Banner -no matter how it looks- out of TAR too.

 

So, in every instance when the Dragon does not walk the earth, he is present  with the Banner by default, to be followed into battle by the rest of the Heroes who happen to be wallowing away in TAR the moment the Horn has been sounded.

 

We agree on one point though, but it doesn't help your case I think;

The Banner is an important symbol, like Justice is a symbol. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter if Justice is a golden sword 8 feet long, a heron marked-power wrought dagger or a regular sword; so long as Artur Hawkwing wields it, it is 'Justice'. It's all a matter of how 'Justice' is/was remembered.

Anything resembling a banner brought out of TAR by the Dragon, is the Dragon Banner.

 

Once the weave is set though, there are certain conditions to be met;

The weave is set, because the Dragon has been spun out already... a Dragon Banner is out in the world already...

That's why Rand as the Dragon Reborn, needs that same Banner that the Dragon already used before him. He is the reborn version of that same Dragon; he needs that specific Banner. That's a lot harder then riding out of TAR with it. That's why the Banner was found at the Eye. The Aes Sedai making the Eye for the Dragon Reborn realised this Banners' importance (be it through 'foretelling' or other knowledge is not really relevant. But that they knew & put it there is)

You can tell this from the conversation, since all the Heroes look at Rand as if he is Lews Therin.

 

Besides, pay attention to the way Hawkwing said it--he goes to ride, then pauses. If use of the banner were fundementally required in the use of the horn he wouldn't have started at all--likely wouldn't have bantered with them at the very first--without first saying "You have summoned us so you'd better have the banner. I'd hate to have come all this way for nothing."

 

Hawkwing said what he did out of a sense of nostalgia. Rand, their ancient friend and leader, had called them forth into battle. It was an archetypal moment and Hawkwing felt the drama of it. It was like a sportsman not wanting to play without his lucky socks.

C'mon Luckers. If we were old buddies and we meet every -say- couple of hundred years in different settings, different circumstances to go bowling and you can remember them all, the first thing you would say is "Hey Mik, you did bring your bowling ball, right?". No, you say "How goes, bud! Long time no see? How's the wife?" You'd assume I brought that Ball I always use, because well,..I always do and we're going bowling after all!

 

They have "all the time of the world" like Bri said (you have to take that literally by the way), so why not 'shake hands' first & then get down to 'business as usual'? Business as usual in this case is falling in-line behind the Champion of the Light & his Banner, that 999 out of a 1000 times is present by default as described above.

And about 'comming all this way'... I don't think there is an 'all this way' in TAR. ;)

 

Had Rand not had the banner they would have fought anywyay, Hawkwing would have just continued to feel piqued.

Hawkwing was being sentimental. He's a human being, they do that sometimes, especially when it comes to things like battles. Banners are important in those sort of situations. But they arn't magical components of the Horn's ability to function.

What could be 'holding back' Hawkwing? Hawkwing didn't say "something is wrong" for nostalgic or sentimental reasons. That just doesn't fit. Certainly not with their convo  right before, that did 'breathe' the atmosphere of a nostalgic reunion of old friends.

No. "Something was wrong", because the Dragons Banner didn't fly, like Hawkwing said. Simple as that.

 

And yes, like you said; banners are important in situations where you ride into battle. But riding into battle isn't a function of the Horn. The Horns function is to summon the Heroes from TAR. And that worked, regardless if the Banner and /or the Dragon would have been there.

 

I consider it pre-cautions if you will;

The Dragon & his Banner are the Safety-key & the Red Button for firing a nuclear-weapon. Without those 2 pre-cautions, you can show up with this hefty looking mamah, but can't actuaylly hurt anyone. It makes sure the Heroes are not abused by Darkfriends -unless the Dragon decides to turn*- but instead are 'used' for their righteous purpose; showing up at Tarmon Gai'don and aiding that Champion of Creation in keeping everything together;

 

"In the last, lorn fight

'gainst the fall of long night,

the mountains stand guard,

and the dead shall be ward,

for the grave is no bar to my call."

 

Just my take on it. I have to go with Fryn on this one;

The Heroes follow the Dragon into battle, symbolised by gathering behind his Banner.

 

Cheers,

Mik

 

 

*:If the strongest of threads decides to turn Dark, it's Game Over anyway. The Heroes nor the Horn will matter then.

[Fryn]

Mik just posted while I was typing, and ya that is definitely along the lines I was thinking (but since I don't want to delete the post I wrote here it is, and its a decent discussion topic). I would actually have to agree more with Mik's take on the dragon being present by default though and the deal with the banner.

 

 

Just because Moraine said something, doesn't mean it is true especially about something she has no real reference to. As long as she believes it is true then she can state it. I would take Hawkings statements over Morraine's because he is going off of personal knowledge and not ancient texts that could of been changed over time. As they say you only ever half believe anything an AS tells you =). If I remember right Morraine was trying to scare Mat at the same time (in reference to DF sounding the horn), so while it was a truth Morraine might of had alterior motives. If the last time the horn was blown was before the AoL, and the AS don't even know about the events and general life during the AoL, I take little heed about what an AS says about the horn and its workings/requirements.

 

It is also stated as the banner and not the dragon banner, so it could be that the dragon was added onto the banner later (the banner isn't some random sheet with a dragon placed in it. It is of the same origin as the dragons the aiel are given that comes from the power - at least that was my impression - and I could definitely be wrong about that point, but Rand comments about the material iirc). And remember Verin made sure Rand had the banner on him, which makes me believe that it is indeed required because of all of the other things Verin has done throughout the series. She is the only person in the series that seems to know all the little ins and outs of what should happen, so when she makes sure Rand has the banner I take it as being important.

 

As for following the dragon, Hawking is talking about the soul and in Hawkings own words he would recognize him no matter what he looked like (or what he was called at the time). Just because the dragon wasn't called the dragon in the past doesn't mean it wasn't the dragon they followed. LTT is a hero of the pattern and is spun out as needed, and just like the other heros he would of been spun out with many names.

 

Hawking states they come to the call of the horn, but must follow the banner and the dragon. Meaning they can come to the call without doing anything further if other requirements aren't met.

 

You used must in a question. Hawking used must in a statement. Therefore putting it in different context.

 

Must-

–auxiliary verb 1. to be obliged or bound to by an imperative requirement: I must keep my word.  

2. to be under the necessity to; need to: Animals must eat to live.  

3. to be required or compelled to, as by the use or threat of force: You must obey the law.  

4. to be compelled to in order to fulfill some need or achieve an aim: We must hurry if we're to arrive on time.  

5. to be forced to, as by convention or the requirements of honesty: I must say, that is a lovely hat.  

6. to be or feel urged to; ought to: I must buy that book.  

7. to be reasonably expected to; is bound to: It must have stopped raining by now. She must be at least 60.  

8. to be inevitably certain to; be compelled by nature: Everyone must die.  

–verb (used without object) 9. to be obliged; be compelled: Do I have to go? I must, I suppose.  

10. Archaic. (sometimes used with ellipsis of go, get, or some similar verb readily understood from the context): We must away.  

–adjective 11. necessary; vital: A raincoat is must clothing in this area.  

–noun 12. something necessary, vital, or required: This law is a must

 

True people don't always use it properly, but not a person of Hawking's background when talking about what is needed before he can start a fight due to conditions placed on the heroes of the horn. He didn't say we would perfer to follow, or it makes us feel better to follow. He also tried to charge into battle, but couldn't. There was a murmur from all of the heroes present as well, which to me made it appear as though they were wondering the exact same thing. Lastly he included that they must follow the dragon; I could see your point if it was just the banner that hawking was referencing, but he also included a person.

 

Absolutes are a pain for this reason, and you could be right, but it would be slopy writting if that were the case given the characters involved. At least must isn't as bad as when people use all =).

 

Brightside !! They will be called to battle again in AMOL so we will hopefully get some more details on what is needed =). But yes, based on the text we have availible, we will have to agree to disagree, because unless you can find proof in writting to contradict what Hawking states in tGH I won't change my mind =), and I doubt I could convince you to change yours. That said I don't mind discussing the topic. I can understand your PoV, but I am not swayed enough to change my mind. Even if the horn was blown in a different era that doesn't mean that the dragon soul wasn't present (even if named something else) or that the banner wasn't there even if it didn't have a dragon on it at that time. Unless RJ stated more than it was used in a previous age?

[Fryn]

Back to the original topic my gut tells me the twins will be Avi's children, which is about all we have to go off of. Luc/Tigrane does not work because it is said they are twins not siblings.

[a pale tanned lover]

Some very interesting points posted by Luckers,Fryn and Mik, although i do go toward Fryn&Mik's point, one question i would ask on that score, do you believe that everyone has to be present when the horn is blown? as in does Birgette have to be there in the flesh the same as Rand because all the heros are bound to the horn, and all need to be present otherwise the terms are not met? just a side thought.

[Majsju]

Regarding the Horn, and what happened at Falme, you all miss a quite important thing here. Look at Rand fight with Ishamael, it was displayed in the sky all over the place. That was something done by the Wheel, in order to force Rand to announce to the world that he was TDR. How hrad would it be for the Wheel to stop the Heroes from moving in order to further ensure that goal is reached?

 

It was not nostalgia, it is quite clear from Hawkwings words that he and the other Heroes can not move. It is only after he discovers this that it dawns on him that perhaps they should pull out the banner.

 

The banner in itself is not tied to the Horn. Need a safety protocol for the Horn? Bind it to the Dragons soul, so that only he can actually blow the Horn. Sounds an awful lot safer than just waving around a little banner, yes? Since this was obviously not done, that kind of safety apparently was never on the creators mind.

 

Back to the original topic my gut tells me the twins will be Avi's children, which is about all we have to go off of. Luc/Tigrane does not work because it is said they are twins not siblings.

 

It is never said that Shivan and Calian are twins, only that they are brother and sister.

 

Luc and Tigraine does not work though, since while Lucs body may have died, his soul seems quite alive and kicking in Slayer, which means he should not have been able to appear at Falme.

[Mik]

That was something done by the Wheel, in order to force Rand to announce to the world that he was TDR. How hrad would it be for the Wheel to stop the Heroes from moving in order to further ensure that goal is reached?

 

It was not nostalgia, it is quite clear from Hawkwings words that he and the other Heroes can not move. It is only after he discovers this that it dawns on him that perhaps they should pull out the banner.

Not 'perhaps'. He specifically states that the Heroes "follow the banner. And the dragon".

What's perhaps about that? Hawkwing knew what conditions needed to be met to advance.

 

You make it sound like the Wheel 'did something special' here this time. I disagree fundamentally with that, because that undermines the basis of the Wheel of Time.

 

That everyone could see the Dragon, is how the Horn works & not a special trick of the Wheel itself;

The Horn links TAR to the specific location where it's blown; our world at Falme this time.

If there's fighting to be done, the Dragon has to be present and his 'will be done'; the Heroes follow the Dragons command & his Banner leads all of the Heroes into battle.

 

Compare this to how the Bore is described;

It's location is no closer to any specific place all over the world(s), yet it can be sensed best at Shayol Ghul.

The Horn ties TAR to this world on the spot where it was used, but it's seen all across the sky...?

Now, I'm not saying that the Bore and the Horn work in the exact same way, but there are paralels. The Bore is drilled through TAR at a very very specific point (the thin spot) in the Pattern.

The Horn ties TAR to a specific point in this World, allowing the Heroes entrance.

 

The Wheel did not intervene like you suggest; the Wheel runs its coarse based on choices from the threads it weaves & how events unfold.

Perhaps this is best explained that in a quazillion mirrors worlds -that are all part of that same Wheel- The Dragon Reborn did not bring the Dragon Banner for a quazillion different reasons.

In ultra-supah-zillion other mirror-worlds, the Dragon Reborn never even showed up at Falme...

Choices, choices...

"I win again, Lews Therin"...Muhhahahaaaa

 

Sidenote;

One o' them days, I'll finnish that damned theory of mine. *sigh*

Chapter 12 deals with this;

How about sounding the Horn at Shayol Ghul with the Hornsounder, the Wolfking & the Dragon present? Our World and TAR mix at the thin spot in the Pattern (this thin spot is LTT's Soul in the Pattern by the way, but that's another Chapter *bites nails*).

Immagine a horde of Wolves -both alive & TAR ones-, immagine the Heroes of the Horn, Immagine the Dragon & Moridin fighting a mental battle over the their Soul.

 

"If [The Dark One] is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all" Isn't that much of a paradox if you make a part of our world and a part of TAR one.  :-X

 

It's way out there in left field.. I know I know.. but a man can have his own views right? RIGHT!

 

The banner in itself is not tied to the Horn. Need a safety protocol for the Horn? Bind it to the Dragons soul, so that only he can actually blow the Horn. Sounds an awful lot safer than just waving around a little banner, yes?

Not quite, Maj.

If only the Dragon can use the Horn, then he must be spun out already!

The way it functions now, the Dragon can be called from TAR, but regardless of who summons them all, the Dragon is in charge when fighting is concerned. :)

 

Since this was obviously not done, that kind of safety apparently was never on the creators mind.

The riddle/ prophecy on the Horn of Valere could very well include the Dragon Soul, now could it?

It wasn't done, because it would grealty limit the use of the Horn, I guess.

[lordofsoup]

Heres a thought to consider. Perhaps Shivan is Ishamael. He was there. He could have placed himself among them as a past self. He later styles himself as a hunter, or a ninja of sorts when he follows Sammael and Graendal. Also, it could be argued that he, as Elan Morin Tedronai heralded the end of the Age of Legends and the beginning of the Collapse. In fact, I believe it states in the Guidebook that his announcement that he followed the Shadow did officially begin the Collapse. And as stated before, who says he has to be good? Hawkwing said he had faced LTT as many times as he had stood beside him. And I am quite sure Ishy said almost exactly the same thing. Not sure about his sister though. I had originally thought it might be Gawyn and Elayne, but neither could have been there when the Horn was sounded. Might be a wild theory, but I think it at least deserves some consideration.

 

i agree, but is it necessary that all heros are good, I mean couldent the DO have a company of heros that are reborn to fight the ones that serve the light?

[General Cauthon]

Not 'perhaps'. He specifically states that the Heroes "follow the banner. And the dragon".

What's perhaps about that? Hawkwing knew what conditions needed to be met to advance.

 

If Hawkwing knew the conditions, why did he start to move, and was held back? Do you propose that he forgot one of the conditions?

 

You make it sound like the Wheel 'did something special' here this time. I disagree fundamentally with that, because that undermines the basis of the Wheel of Time.

 

It's called Ta'veren... The Wheel spin out ta'veren to force the Pattern back on track. Three ta'veren, including the strongest in history, could have held back the Heroes, because the Pattern needed Rand to announce himself the Dragon Reborn. For this he needed the banner.

 

5. to be forced to, as by convention or the requirements of honesty: I must say, that is a lovely hat. 

6. to be or feel urged to; ought to: I must buy that book.

 

One may say that Hawkwing felt the need of the banner before riding to this particular battle, at which tDR was to be revealed to the world, because the Wheel, through the three ta'veren, forced him. Couldn't that be why he used the phrase must?

[triadruid]

I agree that the banner was a requirement only in Hawkwing's mind, not for the Horn itself (heroes tend to speak in hyperbole), but I'm still a little confused about the banner itself. It has the same problem that the Aiel dragon tattoos do; where does the concept come from? There are no dragons in Randland, and haven't been for at least two Ages (maybe never, but that's doubtful, especially given the hints about Worms). So where does the banner come from? Is it really stated that the banner was made in the Age of Legends, when the Horn was packed into the EOTW?

 

Have we ever seen the banner damaged in any way? I have a wild-assed theory that it's been around a lot longer... it never seems to suffer any damage or indignity, but I haven't verified that 100%.

[Mik]

Not 'perhaps'. He specifically states that the Heroes "follow the banner. And the dragon".

What's perhaps about that? Hawkwing knew what conditions needed to be met to advance.

If Hawkwing knew the conditions, why did he start to move, and was held back? Do you propose that he forgot one of the conditions?

Are you trying to say Hawkwing guessed correctly that they had to follow the Banner and the Dragon in that instant? You know, just this one time?

Artur felt something holding him back, and guessed on the spot that "Hey, I think I need a banner to follow!".

 

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing’s gauntleted fist. “I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you.”

 

His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. “Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him.

 

“Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner. It filled his hands and hung almost to his stallion’s knees. The murmur among the heroes rose.

 

“The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said. “You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.”

I think I answered this earlier; usually, the Dragon is already with them marching from TAR with the Banner. If not that, then the Dragon is waiting with his own memories & mind for the Heroes to show up.

This time, the Dragon was there, but 'he did not know himself'.

 

Hawkwing realised in seconds he had to remind this specific Dragon of the conditions needed for the Heroes of the Horn to ride into battle, because 'this Dragon did not know himself yet'. Hawkwing realised near-instantanious what was different about all the other times they rode together; he missed the Dragon Banner at their head.

 

You make it sound like the Wheel 'did something special' here this time. I disagree fundamentally with that, because that undermines the basis of the Wheel of Time.

It's called Ta'veren... The Wheel spin out ta'veren to force the Pattern back on track. Three ta'veren, including the strongest in history, could have held back the Heroes, because the Pattern needed Rand to announce himself the Dragon Reborn. For this he needed the banner.

Erm. First off, Rand did not anounce himself the Dragon at Falme, wich is pretty relevant.

 

But you're meaning to tell me that the Wheel needed to pull a 'fast one' when there's already a device present (the Horn) that when activated ties our world to TAR (the mist, the "all of time" remark by Bri, souls waiting in TAR showing up), to show the world that the Dragon has been Reborn?

 

I think it makes more sense that the decision to use the Horn there and then made it possible for all the world to see what occured at Falme. TAR encompassing all worlds and all.

 

Edit:

I have one more thing to add to this;

If it was the Pattern/ Wheel and/or Ta'veren-powerrrr that showed the fight at Falme & Rand to the world, why didn't it happen at another key-point in the series? Say, at his birth? Or -say- at the Stone when he did proclaim himself (with his 2 Ta'veren buddies closeby).

It was the only time it happened, because that's what happens when you sound the Horn.

It happened once. The Horn was used once. Coincidence?  ;)

[General Cauthon]

Are you trying to say Hawkwing guessed correctly that they had to follow the Banner and the Dragon in that instant?

Artur felt something holding him back, and guessed on the spot that "Hey, I need a Banner to follow".

 

Yes. Hawkwing is a clever guy, if he for some reason can't move, he should be able to recognize the effects of a ta'veren. He looks directly to Rand (which is the only ta'veren present as far as Hawkwing know), whom he know is still denying to be tDR, and he realize that this is the moment for tDR to introduce himself to the world.

 

Erm. First off, Rand did not anounce himself the Dragon at Falme, wich is pretty relevant.

 

No, but he was announced/introduced at Falme, in a way that put all doubt to rest. Everyone that witnessed the events at Falme must have believed immedeatly that he was tDR, even if Rand didn't hold a speach, formally announcing that he is tDR.

 

I think it makes more sense that the decision to use the Horn there and then made it possible for all the world to see what occured at Falme. TAR encompassing all worlds and all.

 

Where does it say that the entire world could see what happened at Falme? I thought Moirraine said that it could be witness all around Falme, but I can't recall that anyone outside Tomans Head witnessed it. Can you find a quote for me?

[Mik]

Are you trying to say Hawkwing guessed correctly that they had to follow the Banner and the Dragon in that instant?

Artur felt something holding him back, and guessed on the spot that "Hey, I need a Banner to follow".

 

Yes. Hawkwing is a clever guy, if he for some reason can't move, he should be able to recognize the effects of a ta'veren. He looks directly to Rand (which is the only ta'veren present as far as Hawkwing know), whom he know is still denying to be tDR, and he realize that this is the moment for tDR to introduce himself to the world.

Ah yes. And he's so clever that he specifically asks for "The Banner", instead of -say- "The Crown", or "The Sword that is not a Sword"? He asks for the Banner, because that's whats supposed to be there. He doesn't 'recognize the effects of a Ta'veren'; he recongnizes Lews Therin -The Dragon- specifically and that's why he asks Rand where his banner is. He IS the Dragon after all.

 

Erm. First off, Rand did not anounce himself the Dragon at Falme, wich is pretty relevant.

No, but he was announced/introduced at Falme, in a way that put all doubt to rest. Everyone that witnessed the events at Falme must have believed immedeatly that he was tDR, even if Rand didn't hold a speach, formally announcing that he is tDR.

Is that so?

Wierd, because that's not how RJ wrote it. I seem to recall people proclaiming themselves for this Dragon fighting with others.. who fought with others again.

Doesn't look like 'all doubt was put to rest'.

 

You skipped the real relevant part though; why didn't the Pattern show Rand in the sky when he was proclaiming himself the Dragon?

....

Because it was the Horn -linking TAR to this world- that did it, perhaps?

 

I think it makes more sense that the decision to use the Horn there and then made it possible for all the world to see what occured at Falme. TAR encompassing all worlds and all.

 

Where does it say that the entire world could see what happened at Falme? I thought Moirraine said that it could be witness all around Falme, but I can't recall that anyone outside Tomans Head witnessed it. Can you find a quote for me?

C'mon. "for all the world to see" is a figure of speech.

Now you must excuse my english, because it's not my native language, but I'm pretty sure I'm using it correctly.

It's not like there's a line drawn across the map somewhere, so I can say '" Illian saw it, but Tear didn't".

The fight was 'projected' in techni-color across the sky... if that's not 'for all the world to see', what is?

 

[Majsju]

*whistles*

Question: At the end of the Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the one power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

 

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasnt the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out taveren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one dragon.

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9910/t/Third-Q-amp-A-Sunday.html

 

So, we have RJ himself confirming that it was the Wheel that caused the fight between Rand and Ishamael to appear in the sky, because the Wheel needed Rand to be proclaimed as the one true DR.

Now, if the Wheel can do such a thing, how hard could it be to stop the Heroes from moving until Rand produces that banner so he can fight Ishy as the Dragon reborn, and not just "Average Joe who happens to be there"...

 

And if we look at what Hawkwing says...

The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said. “You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon

 

The bolded parts clearly indicates that this is something out of the ordinary, something unique for this occasion.

 

Up til this point, the Wheel has been spitting out false Dragons, as well as the one true TDR, because it needs TDR. And now it is time to remove the false ones from the board, and have only the real one left.

[Ireond]

I would even think that the False dragons were spit out in such rapid succession for the wheel to provide a little cover for him.

 

The IN THIS MOMENT.. well.. What things are known to those in TAR? How do we know that he can't see a part of the pattern or that the wheel doesn't let him see Rand as a glowing thing and the banner in the satchel as a glowing thing.  So he might know that this is different from then because of that...

 

Could not a weave be placed on the Banner linking it to the horn for this moment? Whether or not it stays on there is one thing, but I thought somewhere it was mentioned that the banner was made as a safe key for the horn in AOL.. that they may be from before, but it was AOL that they were linked. *shrug*

[Mik]

*whistles*

You win, I guess.

I mean, you can't beat RJ.

 

It's very unsatisfying though;

The Pattern needed Hawkwing & the heroes, so why not just let him pop out of TAR because the Wheel 'needed his help there for a sec'..? The Pattern needed to show the Dragon Reborn to the world, so let's put him across the sky.

 

Why even bother to create a Horn? (story-wise that is)

 

It still doesn't add up that Hawkwing asks specifically for the banner.

He can't really smell it, now can he...? Especially since it's all so unique...

Also consider Hawkwing telling Rand 'they've done this times without number' (or something similar) is odd too, if it's so unique.

 

I mean, the Heroes are 'tied to the Horn' ('it takes more then bravery'). Hawkwing tells us this himself. And the Dragon and Hawkwing have fought side by side 'times without number' in relation to 'coming to the Horn'.

 

Almost sounds like the Horn itself is a constant, like the Wheel.

 

It just doesn't add up.

Meh.

 

 

EDIT:

It's kinda hard to let it go because it's so unsatisfying. (well, to me anyway) :)

Couldn't RJ be meaning TAR as 'An effect of the Wheel'?

 

 

[Majsju]

So, the Horn is less useful because it is not always tied to The Dragon? It is less relevant to the story now that one of Rands best generals can use without having to have Rand and his little banner around?

 

Imagine a scene in AMOL, Mat and the band are surrounded by a million trollocs or so. Mat blows the Horn and the Heroes appear.

Mat: hey guys, a little help?

Hawkwing: Sure. Got the Dragon and the banner around?

Mat: Uhm, nope...

Hawkwing: Ouch. Sorry mate, but it seems we will just watch you die then. Take out as many as you can before you go down, ok?

 

 

[Mik]

So, the Horn is less useful because it is not always tied to The Dragon? It is less relevant to the story now that one of Rands best generals can use without having to have Rand and his little banner around?

 

Imagine a scene in AMOL, Mat and the band are surrounded by a million trollocs or so. Mat blows the Horn and the Heroes appear.

Mat: hey guys, a little help?

Hawkwing: Sure. Got the Dragon and the banner around?

Mat: Uhm, nope...

Hawkwing: Ouch. Sorry mate, but it seems we will just watch you die then. Take out as many as you can before you go down, ok?

Don't blame me. I didn't write that scene.

 

Fact remains; the heroes needed the Dragon & his banner to duke it out with the Seanchan.

 

Fact remains; the inscription on the Horn talks about it's true purpose;

Having the Heroes there for Tarmon Gai'don. Who's always there too?

Do the math.