Black Sisters and the 3 Oaths

[Darth_Andrea]

Ok it's time for another one of Andrea's Only RJ can answer but she hopes someone has a clue questions.

 

If Black sisters have the 3 oaths removed from them when they swear to the shadow, and the Aes Sedai know this, Can't they just delve a sister to confirm that she is or isn't still bound by the weaving from the Oath Rod? If so then why don't they and if Not has it been explained, and where?

 

 

 

 

Darth_Andrea    

 

[MsDanya]

The way I understand it is that the Oaths is a part of who you are, sort of like having brown hair or blue eyes. Its supposed to be unchangable. So that would be like Delving someone to see what kind of coulour their eyes are, and I dotn think thats possible. I could be totally wrong tho, but my guess would be that they cant delve breaking of the oaths, because the oaths wouldnt be visible by delving in the first place.

[Mr Ares]

Ok it's time for another one of Andrea's Only RJ can answer but she hopes someone has a clue questions.

 

If Black sisters have the 3 oaths removed from them when they swear to the shadow, and the Aes Sedai know this, Can't they just delve a sister to confirm that she is or isn't still bound by the weaving from the Oath Rod? If so then why don't they and if Not has it been explained, and where?

Aside from the fact, as mentioned by Danya, that we don't know if Delving can pick up the Oaths, there is also the fact that Black Sisters don't just remove the Oaths - they swear three new ones in their place. If they didn't, they would lose the Agelessness, which would be a bit more obvious than anything Delving could pick up.

[Navaros]

Since the BA oaths were mentioned, I'm wondering does the DO have a more powerful ter'angreal to bind them or is he using his own power in some way. This conversation in TAR between Lanfear and Ishy caught my eye during my latest reread:

 

“Have you abandoned your oaths to the Great Lord of the Dark?” For an instant the darkness nearly obliterated him, only the glowing fires showing through. “They are not so easily broken as the oaths to the Light you forsook, proclaiming your new master in the very Hall of the Servants. Your master claims you forever, Lanfear..." (The Dragon Reborn, Ch. 36, Daughter of the Night)

 

And if the oaths to the DO are more binding than the ones in Tar Valon wouldn't that mean that BA have a shorter life span than non-BA sisters?

[Mr Ares]

Since the BA oaths were mentioned, I'm wondering does the DO have a more powerful ter'angreal to bind them or is he using his own power in some way. This conversation in TAR between Lanfear and Ishy caught my eye during my latest reread:

 

“Have you abandoned your oaths to the Great Lord of the Dark?” For an instant the darkness nearly obliterated him, only the glowing fires showing through. “They are not so easily broken as the oaths to the Light you forsook, proclaiming your new master in the very Hall of the Servants. Your master claims you forever, Lanfear..." (The Dragon Reborn, Ch. 36, Daughter of the Night)

He could just mean that turning your back on Shai'tan after swearing to serve Him is a really bad (as in, invariably fatal) move. Like Asmo - In the Prologue to TFoH, it appears the Chosen are more surprised that Asmo had the courage to betray, not that it was possible for him to do it. Betrayal seems to be possible, but unwise.

 

And if the oaths to the DO are more binding than the ones in Tar Valon wouldn't that mean that BA have a shorter life span than non-BA sisters?

But they are less binding. An Oath on an OR cannot be broken - Sisters find themselves physically unable to speak a word that is not true. The difference would appear to be that one can be released from an Oath on an OR, but one is never released from an oath to Shai'tan. And even if they were more binding, why would that reduce lifespan? All we know is that swearing on an OR diminishes lifespan. What we don't know is whether the effect increases the more Oaths are sworn, or whether it is a"flat rate" - one or a hundred Oaths, the loss of life is the same.

[icspots]

Since the BA oaths were mentioned, I'm wondering does the DO have a more powerful ter'angreal to bind them or is he using his own power in some way. This conversation in TAR between Lanfear and Ishy caught my eye during my latest reread:

 

“Have you abandoned your oaths to the Great Lord of the Dark?” For an instant the darkness nearly obliterated him, only the glowing fires showing through. “They are not so easily broken as the oaths to the Light you forsook, proclaiming your new master in the very Hall of the Servants. Your master claims you forever, Lanfear..." (The Dragon Reborn, Ch. 36, Daughter of the Night)

 

And if the oaths to the DO are more binding than the ones in Tar Valon wouldn't that mean that BA have a shorter life span than non-BA sisters?

 

Well that particular conversation was between Ishy and Lanfear.  The "oaths" she forsook were way back in the AoL, and weren't actual Oaths (note the capital) on a Ter'angreal.  So Lanfear/Mieren never swore on the Oath Rod/binder..... it's comparing two different things.  In the AoL the only thing the OR was used for was binding criminals who could channel.  As to oaths to the dark being stronger than oaths to the light it's basically because the Creator doesn't get involved he/she/it isn't going to do anything should you change you mind.  The DO on the other hand keeps you once you swear and you can't turn back once he claims you.

 

As far as we know the only difference in swearing one or many Oaths is the ageless look.  As Mr Ares said we don't know that swearing more Oaths shortens life more than swearing one.  The only POV comment about swearing a single Oath from a AoL character (who would actually know) is from Semirhage where she thinks she was given the choice between being bound like a criminal and seeing the end of life approach, or being severed.  So I think definitely even a single Oath will drastically shorten the life span.  Since Aes Sedai of the current age can live to around 300 or so, and I think that's only about half of what AoL AS lived to, that it doesn't matter how many you swear.

[Charlz Guybon]

Ok it's time for another one of Andrea's Only RJ can answer but she hopes someone has a clue questions.

 

If Black sisters have the 3 oaths removed from them when they swear to the shadow, and the Aes Sedai know this, Can't they just delve a sister to confirm that she is or isn't still bound by the weaving from the Oath Rod? If so then why don't they and if Not has it been explained, and where?

Aside from the fact, as mentioned by Danya, that we don't know if Delving can pick up the Oaths, there is also the fact that Black Sisters don't just remove the Oaths - they swear three new ones in their place. If they didn't, they would lose the Agelessness, which would be a bit more obvious than anything Delving could pick up.

 

Yup, one is certainly something very close to "I will not betray the black ajah". We've seen that black sisters who have been captured are unable to give out info on current plans or members. 

[Aemon raHal]

In Tear, didn't Moraine, Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve get the Mazrim Taim and Tanchico info from the two BA Sisters?

 

Both appeared to be true IIRC.

 

 

 

[Darth_Andrea]

In Tear, didn't Moraine, Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve get the Mazrim Taim and Tanchico info from the two BA Sisters?

 

Both appeared to be true IIRC.

 

 

Yeah it seems like they don't have much trouble giving up information when caught. Even in book 11 it's stated they do eventually break, perhaps being put to the question can break them enough mentally for them to get around what they swear to the shadow.

 

 

 

Darth_Andrea   

[Hybrid]

In Tear, didn't Moraine, Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve get the Mazrim Taim and Tanchico info from the two BA Sisters?

 

Both appeared to be true IIRC.

 

The Tanchico info was given by Amico Nagoyen.  She had been stilled, so she had been released from any Oaths she was under.

 

The Mazrim Taim info was given by Joiya Byir.  She was not stilled and so was still under Oaths, but there is still an explanation.  If Taim escaped with the help of the Black Ajah as part of a plan that Joiya knew of, then it is possible that the escape had already happened, or had already been put into motion, so Joiya was able to give information on it.  Taim could also have escaped on his own, or Joiya could have made up a story which happened to be a Black Ajah plan in a different cell.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Yup, one is certainly something very close to "I will not betray the black ajah". We've seen that black sisters who have been captured are unable to give out info on current plans or members.

UNQUOTE

 

That isnt necessarily an Oath they take at all. The Black sisters we saw captured were unable to give names because of the structure of the Ajah-each member is part of a triangle, and each member knows only three other black sisters-the two in their triangle and one from another. This makes it so even if they are broken they do not know the names of more than three others, making investigating very hard. As to not giving out other plans, we have had glimpses of how the Darkfriends do things. Look at the meeting in TGH-each DF was given individual orders with no explanation as to why or what happened next

[Luckers]

Actually that isn't true--we know Ispan was unable to give information on any active Black Ajah plots inspite of Adeleas and Vandene's confidence in their methods. Now that could have been overconfidence on there part, but honestly, my pure gut reaction is that it isn't. In particular they seem confused at the absense of any information--Ispan was not trying to mislead them, she was simply not speaking at all. That requires a relatively strong constitution, and given what we witnessed of her... decline in strength over that period of time I doubt it.

 

As for Joiya... Joiya's 'revelation' wasn't actually accurate. Liandrin didn't attempt to free Taim, and the Black Ajah did not attempt to make him assert himself as a fake Rand. Yes, her comments bear similarity to what occured--the Black, or at least darkfriend channelers, did free Taim. But similarity is not actuality, and we've seen that the Oaths are flexible in precisely that manner.

 

And thats excluding the idea that there WAS once a plan to do precisely what Joiya suggested, and that it had been abandoned--and so Joiya felt comfortable speaking of it whilst without her knowledge some other member of the Black revisited that plan and adapted it.