Semirhage? Truth or lies?

[a pale tanned lover]

How would she know about the voices in Rand's head, Lanfear told her, there is no proof he is as mad as a brush, yes he has lots of different women in his head, and LLT(who he would be dead without by now.) i don't think he is mad, he just wants to run to his destiny and embrace it without hurting the people he loves. So thats why i think Semihage is lying about him, she even admits she is no expert in that field. Therefore Rand is sane

[mb]

In various passages Semirhage has been able to do various things with a person's brain.

That is probably how she found out.

 

The part about Rand being mad to me is the only lie in the statement.

 

[Roxinos]

I need to go through a re-read of the books again, but the only issue I'll address here is the issue which I brought up in a topic. I'm not sure if any common consensus was reached, but I hold that Rand's mental stability was affected by the taint to some degree before he Cleansed the Power. This led to the opening of his mind to Lews Therin's voice as well as a degree of instability (though, the instability's arrival is not entirely unaided by the incredible stress Rand puts on himself).

[xander]

I have no idea why anyone would believe anything one of the forsaken has to say.  They cant even trust each other for goodness sake.  She may not even know that there really is a voice in Rand's head.  I think she is just trying to put cracks in the dam, so to speak.  She is trying to have his followers begin to question his sanity (because everyone knows that the taint drives males mad) and thereby question his decisions / commands.  This point was argued in a previous post with no resolution.  He may be crazy as a bed bug but because a forsaken said it, I wont believe it.

[Ashaman Kovan]

"The best lies contain a grain of truth." Besides which even someone totally evil is capable of telling the truth when it suits their purposes or gains them some advantage. Do you really think Semhirage herself really thinks that any of the forces of Light would believe her? Like you said, she's a Forsaken. Why should she be trusted? What does she have to gain at this point from lying? Someone could kill her at any minute, so causing a bit a dissention in the ranks probably isn't her self preserving plan. It could just be the best usage of Reverse Pshycology ever. Ever!!...

[xander]

What she has to gain is planting the seeds of doubt in Rand's most trusted advisors / friends.  I do think she believes that others would believe her, to a certain extent.  Each of the forsaken was very arrogant.  They look down upon each other, they cant trust each other. Yes, Semirhage would be arrogant enough to think she could pull this off, and from the reactions of some of those who were there, I'd say she accomplished exactly what she intended to.

And I agree that she / they will say or do whatever suits their purposes.  She's captured so what would best suit her purpose?  Destroy the credibility of Rand with his most trusted?  I'd say thats a good place to start.  As a matter of fact, Ewegene is doing exactly the same thing in the tower right now.

 

And this isn't the forces of light, these are the forces of Rand, the Dragon.  Nothing bright and noble at this point, just the struggle to win.

[a pale tanned lover]

In various passages Semirhage has been able to do various things with a person's brain.

That is probably how she found out.

 

Semirhage states that lanfear told her that Rand knew things only LTT could know and must have his voice in his head.

 

And this isn't the forces of light, these are the forces of Rand, the Dragon.  Nothing bright and noble at this point, just the struggle to win.

 

They are fighting against the DO so i would have thought that being opposing forces would make them the forces of light.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Everything Semi said that we can back up turns out to be true. Just about the only thing we can't back up is the bit about an abrupt descent into terminal madness. The best lies may contain a grain of truth, but we haven't even found a grain of lie yet. Saying Semi would lie to hurt Rand's cause is an argument that doesn't amount to much, because she would tell the unadulterated truth if she thought that would do more damage. Essentially, the arguments against what she says being true amount to "she's a Chosen".

 

she even admits she is no expert in that field.

But she references someone who is - she says Graendal could explain it better. Graendal is known to be an expert. What she said was most likely the truth.

[a pale tanned lover]

Everything Semi said that we can back up turns out to be true. Just about the only thing we can't back up is the bit about an abrupt descent into terminal madness. The best lies may contain a grain of truth, but we haven't even found a grain of lie yet. Saying Semi would lie to hurt Rand's cause is an argument that doesn't amount to much, because she would tell the unadulterated truth if she thought that would do more damage. Essentially, the arguments against what she says being true amount to "she's a Chosen".

 

Isn't it also said the best lie is hidden between two truths? And surely by saying what she has makes her survival more likely, since she makes herself valuable too them.

 

But she references someone who is - she says Graendal could explain it better. Graendal is known to be an expert. What she said was most likely the truth.

 

Graendal has never studied Rand, seems more likely it was said to make them doubt him. we know LLT is in his head, and so do they but they don't know if he is mad or is going to be. Although i do think he has a mad man in head.

[Mr Ares]

Isn't it also said the best lie is hidden between two truths? And surely by saying what she has makes her survival more likely, since she makes herself valuable too them.

It may be said, but there is precious little hiding space for any untruth given the amount of verifiable truth in what she said. And how does saying "I'm not an expert, but an expert told me...." make you valuable? She is valuable for different reasons.

 

But she references someone who is - she says Graendal could explain it better. Graendal is known to be an expert. What she said was most likely the truth.

Graendal has never studied Rand, seems more likely it was said to make them doubt him. we know LLT is in his head, and so do they but they don't know if he is mad or is going to be. Although i do think he has a mad man in head.

Rand's condition has been described to Graendal. Apparently she can tell from that. She has studied various forms of mental instability, etc. It was her job. And if she has encountered a form of madness which involves real past life voices manifesting, then how long do you think it would take to make a diagnosis of "he's nuts" when the revelation of a real past life voice is made?

[a pale tanned lover]

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But she references someone who is - she says Graendal could explain it better. Graendal is known to be an expert. What she said was most likely the truth.

Graendal has never studied Rand, seems more likely it was said to make them doubt him. we know LLT is in his head, and so do they but they don't know if he is mad or is going to be. Although i do think he has a mad man in head.

Rand's condition has been described to Graendal. Apparently she can tell from that. She has studied various forms of mental instability, etc. It was her job. And if she has encountered a form of madness which involves real past life voices manifesting, then how long do you think it would take to make a diagnosis of "he's nuts" when the revelation of a real past life voice is made?

 

There in lies the point, since people who remember who Graendal was before she went over to the DO so it gives her statement more weight but that doesn't mean Graendal has studied people with real life voices in their head.

[Ashaman Kovan]

What she has to gain is planting the seeds of doubt in Rand's most trusted advisors / friends.  I do think she believes that others would believe her, to a certain extent.  Each of the forsaken was very arrogant.  They look down upon each other, they cant trust each other. Yes, Semirhage would be arrogant enough to think she could pull this off, and from the reactions of some of those who were there, I'd say she accomplished exactly what she intended to.

And I agree that she / they will say or do whatever suits their purposes.  She's captured so what would best suit her purpose?  Destroy the credibility of Rand with his most trusted?  I'd say thats a good place to start.  As a matter of fact, Ewegene is doing exactly the same thing in the tower right now.

 

And this isn't the forces of light, these are the forces of Rand, the Dragon.  Nothing bright and noble at this point, just the struggle to win.

 

Well I think you're completely wrong about "Nothing bright and noble." Are you saying that Rand and his immediate followers have no sense of justice or truth or honor or any of those things. I'd those qualities are pretty "Bright and noble."

How long have people been worried about Rand going mad? Ummm since about when the prophecies became known and they know any man who channels goes mad. So do you really think that the people closest to Rand are going to be pushed over the fence by something a Forsaken says?

[Mr Ares]

There in lies the point, since people who remember who Graendal was before she went over to the DO so it gives her statement more weight but that doesn't mean Graendal has studied people with real life voices in their head.

I'd say the chances are in favour of her at least having heard of the condition, given her line of work. Also, bear in mind that we currently have only one answer on the table - madness. If not that, then what is this strange condition, what caused it?

[Ashaman Kovan]

I think it has something to do with the fact the he's the only person in any one age (I think) to be a specific soul reborn for a specific and world changing purpose and have it prophesised and known to everyone. Somehow...

[Luckers]

There in lies the point, since people who remember who Graendal was before she went over to the DO so it gives her statement more weight but that doesn't mean Graendal has studied people with real life voices in their head.

 

Firstly, none of them knew Graendal was an expert in psychology--Semirhage had to tell them that. She might have easily said 'Demandred said it, and he was an expert in the mind... *snigger*'.

 

She didn't, she cited a source we know as a fact to be experienced in mental conditions. Beyond which she displayed exact knowledge of the situation--knowledge that could only come through having studied people with the same condition (or being informed about them by someone that had). She knew Rand was hearing a voice--Lanfear never commented on that, she only said he knew things he shouldn't. If Semirhage were simply guessing about this she would have only gone so far as to say he had a leakthrough of LTT's memories. But she didn't stop there because she had been informed by someone that had studied the condition.

 

The argument that Semirhage lied because... you know... she's a bad guy... just doesn't hold any weight. Her nature is to be blunt, she lies only when there is a specific need and there was none here. Everything that she said that we can verify has been true, and the single addition that we can't verify (that the descent into terminal madness can be sudden) we could already guess at anyway.

 

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

Everything that she said that we can verify has been true, and the single addition that we can't verify (that the descent into terminal madness can be sudden) we could already guess at anyway

 

In one of the books, when Rand is being attacked in Cairhien by the Darkfriend Asha'man, Min is left under the care of Fedwin Morr.  While this is happening, Min describes how the madness overtook Morr abruptly and suddenly, so Semirhage's statement is actually something we've already seen.  "I understand the descent into terminal madness can be sudden" could be something Taim told her at some point or information that was passed along through the Forsaken by Taim.

 

She also answers Cadsuane's comment of "you don't even deny it" by saying "why should I deny who I am?  I am Semirhage."  She is supremely confident of herself and probably is not afraid at all of being held captive since she successfully escaped by doing nothing but feeding everyone's fears at one point. (In the War of Power)

 

I think Semirhage was simply saying what she knew.  "He's crazy, it's probably easier explained by someone like Graendal who studied this sort of thing, but I was the most famed Restorer in the Age of Legends I know what I'm talking about."

[Luckers]

Mmm, it seems such a small point anyway--i mean, she said 'can' be sudden, which means even if its not she still didn't lie.

 

But I would point out Morr's insanity seemed to be of a different type of Rand's.

[xander]

What she has to gain is planting the seeds of doubt in Rand's most trusted advisors / friends.  I do think she believes that others would believe her, to a certain extent.  Each of the forsaken was very arrogant.  They look down upon each other, they cant trust each other. Yes, Semirhage would be arrogant enough to think she could pull this off, and from the reactions of some of those who were there, I'd say she accomplished exactly what she intended to.

And I agree that she / they will say or do whatever suits their purposes.  She's captured so what would best suit her purpose?  Destroy the credibility of Rand with his most trusted?  I'd say thats a good place to start.  As a matter of fact, Ewegene is doing exactly the same thing in the tower right now.

 

And this isn't the forces of light, these are the forces of Rand, the Dragon.  Nothing bright and noble at this point, just the struggle to win.

 

Well I think you're completely wrong about "Nothing bright and noble." Are you saying that Rand and his immediate followers have no sense of justice or truth or honor or any of those things. I'd those qualities are pretty "Bright and noble."

How long have people been worried about Rand going mad? Ummm since about when the prophecies became known and they know any man who channels goes mad. So do you really think that the people closest to Rand are going to be pushed over the fence by something a Forsaken says?

 

That is the point.  Everyone is worried about his sanity because he is a man who can channel.  Each and every one of his closest advisors has worried about his sanity.  He cleanses the taint and the sisters say How can we be sure since no one has ever used a clean power?  They can still be going mad.  We cant trust them, still.  Since the breaking male channelers have been hunted and killed.  I believe this legend has been exaggerated like so many of the others and this has added to the fear effect.  Semi is playing on this.  If people are worried about his sanity how much would it take for them to say Oh crap, he really is crazy! It doesn't have to be true in order for Semi to create a seed of doubt that could be catastrophic for Rand.  She has no idea if he is insane or not.  As far as I know, this was their first meeting.  So, looking at it from this angle, how could she possibly know if he is or is not insane.  The only thing she has to go on is that he is a man who can channel and she knows that everyone in Randland is scared witless of mad-as-a-hatter male channelers.  Remember the effect of legend.  In EoTW lots of folks believe that the sisters are evil.  The Children still teach this passionately.  Lots of people think that the Dragon is a servant of the DO himself.  Of course we know that this isn't true.  The point is that the power of suggestion is a very powerful weapon and Semi just used it.  She really has no idea if Rand is insane.  Look at the doubt that Ewgene is creating in the tower doing the same exact thing.  She herself is considered a renegade and isn't even a full sister by tower standards and tower law.  So, she takes her beatings and keeps right on whispering and the sisters in the tower are believing her.  She is someone who should have no credibility and has none when she is captured but the power of suggestion is taking its toll.

 

I do not think that anyone who will actually fight the last battle sees this as good or noble.  It is just something that has to be done.  This is a fight to survive, and a fight for the survival of mankind. For those fighting the battle this is just a battle, an important battle but just a battle.  Mostly the people who are doing the fighting look at things differently.  History calls events noble and epic.  If you are the soldier you are just trying to stay alive, keep your fellow soldiers alive, and win.  At this point, on the eve of battle, I really think that the only thing folks are thinking of is; are they ready?  Is Rand sane or at least sane enough?  Most importantly, can we set the battle up so that Faile will die at the onset of hostilities?

Honestly, it is for folks like Thom Merrilin to turn these guys into heroes who stood in the light and all that.

[Luckers]

Since the breaking male channelers have been hunted and killed.  I believe this legend has been exaggerated like so many of the others and this has added to the fear effect.  Semi is playing on this.

 

Except Semirhage is not 'playing' with anything--she spoke the simple truth. Rand hear's a real voice.

 

You might suggest her motivation was to sow dissent--though to my mind i think she was actually just trying to show how completely unintimidated she was--but you can't suggest that she made things up, because she did not--everything she said was true.

 

She has no idea if he is insane or not.  As far as I know, this was their first meeting.  So, looking at it from this angle, how could she possibly know if he is or is not insane.

 

Quite simply, Lanfear spoke of Rand's condition in front of both herself and Graendal, and Graendal recognized the condition for what it was and informed them.

 

In other words she has expert opinion on the matter.

 

The point is that the power of suggestion is a very powerful weapon and Semi just used it.  She really has no idea if Rand is insane.

 

Yes, she does--after all, if Lanfear had not really spoken of Rand's condition than how did she know that Rand had betrayed himself in front of Lanfear? If Graendal had not informed her of the full nature of someone in his condition than how could she have known he heard a real voice (as far as Lanfear witnessed he only had LTT's memories).

 

Semirhage did not suggest anything, she spoke the truth.

 

She is someone who should have no credibility and has none when she is captured but the power of suggestion is taking its toll.

 

Semirhage doesn't need credibility, what she said was seperately verifiable as the truth--though i do disagree, her pride speaks for her truthfulness and credibility anyway. She is not Ishamael.

 

Xander--Semirhage was claiming things, she was specific and concise, citing her sources along the way.

[xander]

Except Semirhage is not 'playing' with anything--she spoke the simple truth. Rand hear's a real voice.

 

As you so eloquently stated,

Rand hear's a real voice

which makes Graendal's diagnosis totally incorrect.  Neither she nor Lanfear have any idea that the voice in Rands head is real.

 

Rand hears LTT, not some disembodied voice telling him to wrap aluminum foil around his head to protect himself from the taint. 

Rand hear's a real voice

.  Rand hasn't put that out there because he knows how it sounds; like he's nuts.  Now everyone else is thiking he's nuts.  He hears LTT and it doesn't matter what Graendal, who has never spoken to Rand, thinks, or what Lanfear, who knows he's LTT reborn but not that LTT is in there with Rand, thinks. 

 

Her pride has absolutely nothing to do with truthfulness or credibility, or an understanding of anything beyond her faith in her own abilities to be vastly superior to everyone else around her...arrogance....I wouldn't call that pride.  She had just has her butt kicked.  Don't you find it strange that she's suddenly chatty just after she's captured?  Of all the things she could say, why that?  Why not PLEASE DON'T KILL ME?  I'LL SERVE YOU, I SWEAR IT!  She said what she said in order to cast some doubt on Rand's condition.  Hey, he could be completely mad but she cannot know that for certain, regardless of who said what.  You speak of "his condition."  What do you think his condition is?  Most everyone who hears voices is mad. I can see why Lanfear and Graendal would think that.  He hears a real voice. 

I do not believe Rand to be insane but I really do not care if he is or not.  What I am concerned with is why she said what she said when she said it.

[Roxinos]

The point is not whether or not the voice is real. The point is that Rand is hearing a voice. Lanfear knows this. Lanfear told Graendal and Semirhage. Graendal gave her expert opinion on the matter. Semirhage repeated that expert opinion. Whether or not it is a real voice is a moot point.

[Luckers]

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Except Semirhage is not 'playing' with anything--she spoke the simple truth. Rand hear's a real voice.

 

 

As you so eloquently stated,

Quote

Rand hear's a real voice

which makes Graendal's diagnosis totally incorrect.  Neither she nor Lanfear have any idea that the voice in Rands head is real.

 

Wait... what? How does the fact that Rand is hearing a real voice make Graendal's diagnosis--that Rand was hearing a real voice--incorrect?

 

Graendal said "He's hearing a real voice". He is hearing a real voice. Which means... dun dun daaaah... Graendal was correct.

 

As for your second comment... that neither she and Lanfear knew the voice was real... I'm not sure what you were trying to say then. Lanfear knew he had access to Lews Therin's memories, Graendal deduced from that that he would be hearing Lews Therin's voice--presumably because the only way real memories can manifest is if they come with the persons voice and personality. Either way she was correct in her deduction, and informed not only Lanfear, but Graendal.

 

So, yes both Graendal and Lanfear knew that Rand was hearing a real voice.

 

Rand hasn't put that out there because he knows how it sounds; like he's nuts.  Now everyone else is thiking he's nuts.  He hears LTT and it doesn't matter what Graendal, who has never spoken to Rand, thinks, or what Lanfear, who knows he's LTT reborn but not that LTT is in there with Rand, thinks.

 

What? Dude, what are you talking about? Firstly, Rand has let people know that he hears a voice--both Min and Cadsuane are aware of it. But what does that have to do with anything? He'd already gone skits in front of countless others--attempting to break the seal in LoC, using Callandor to kill countless supporters in PoD. People don't suddenly think he's nuts, they've known how off his rocker he is. They've expected it. What precisely do you think has been done because Semirhage revealed he heard LTT's real voice--if anything, it shows him to be more sane than previously thought.

 

And what do you mean 'he hears LTT and it doesn't matter what Graendal or Lanfear think'? What does one have to do with the other. Graendal and Lanfear know he hears LTT. It's a fact they are well aware of. Why would their knowledge of it influence his opinion of himself?

 

And what does Graendal never having met Rand have to do with anything? She gained her knowledge that Rand was hearing LTT through Lanfear, not through experience. And as for Lanfear, once again she too is now aware that LTT is present in Rand's head.

 

Seriously dude, what are you trying to argue here?

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

The argument that Semirhage lied because... you know... she's a bad guy... just doesn't hold any weight.

UNQUOTE

 

AT LAST!!! Im sick of people saying "Semirhage lied because thats what the Forsaken do." What, are they incapable of telling the truth? I thought I was the only one who realised that everything Semirhage said in that passage has already happened.

[a pale tanned lover]

The argument that Semirhage lied because... you know... she's a bad guy... just doesn't hold any weight.

 

neither does she telling the truth......because you know..........shes a bad guy ;D

 

Wait... what? How does the fact that Rand is hearing a real voice make Graendal's diagnosis--that Rand was hearing a real voice--incorrect?

 

Graendal said "He's hearing a real voice". He is hearing a real voice. Which means... dun dun daaaah... Graendal was correct.

 

Ok so what we have got is Semirhage giving us a second hand opinion from someone else who might have studied the same thing, lets imagine the scence

 

Lanfear "He can hear LTT voice"

Graendal "What he THINKS he can hear LTT voice?"

Lanfear "No he knows things only LTT can know"

Graendal "Well people who hear voices believe them to be real voices, thats why they are mad"

Lanfear " Are you listening, he knows things only LTT knows, he is the Dragon Reborn after all, what  expertise do you have in this field?"

Graendal "Well i've never studied the Draggon Reborn but when someone told me they had memories of a person from another age i never knew if they were real or not because i wasn't there, sounds more like he has two souls in one body"

Lanfear "And..........?"

Graendal " Well whatever the case he probabley thinks he is crazy even though he isn't, but the taint will turn him crazy anyway, so who cares"

Lanfear "But what if there was no taint?"

Graendal "Well as long as he has LTT and himself in his head, he's going to be less effective, especially if people round him know, we might be able to drive him crazy with paranoia"

Lanfear "So shall we say a Real voice in his head which isn't madness is actually worse then a pretend voice in his head which is madness?"

Graendal "Exactly, i am the expert"

Lanfear"Drinks???"

 

Cue Taim "Let the Lord of Chaos rule mwahahahaha"

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Where is the hard evidence to show Semirhage was lying? We have plenty of evidence to back up everything-EVERYTHING-she said in KoD. We have absolutely nothing to contradict her. I dont understand how you can not believe her, when we have what...11 books worth of evidence stacked in her favor.