Cadsuane vs Moiraine

[a pale tanned lover]

I know it is a well thought fact that many believe to be about Moiraine, but when min had her viewing

 

RAND: "He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone..."

 

i always have felt it is about Cadsuane, as we know many of her sisters have expressed surprise and shock that she is still alive,many thought she was dead and gone, and if it was about Moiraine wouldn't Min have known it was her, also i know the other arguement that it was the only viewing that Min had that never came true which is why it is assumed to be associated to being Moiraine, but we have no indication of what viewing it was of Moiraine that she had, and since Moiraine said she knew the face of the person she would marry would this not suggest that Min had a vision of her marrying Thom, plus at the same time we know Cadsuane has to teach Rand and the asha'man something they wouldn't like and we expect her to teach him laugher and tears otherwise he might break before the end.

[Hydroc Claw]

Min's Viewing can't possibly be about Cadsuane because Cadsuane would have had to be dead, not just assumed dead. Min's viewings don't take into account what people believe to be true, only what is true. Therefore, since a person can not be brought back to life except be the DO or by being reincarnated by the pattern(neither of which is plausible in respect to someone helping Rand), the phrase, "He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone..." is simply Min's interpretation of the viewing, which will come true, but she believes failed because she doesn't know Moiraine is alive.

[a pale tanned lover]

i understand that, we as the reader know Moiraine is alive, as did Thom, so in all intents and purposes she was dead, but as Min has said before her viewings arent just a clear cut picture and Cadsuane would fit that profile because she is a legend amongst Aes Sedai and at the same time a myth, and since there was no foreshadowing about her before ACOS that would have been a perfect time to introduce her and afterwards have many people say they thought she was dead

[Hydroc Claw]

But even if other people thought she was dead, she was alive. If the viewing had been about Cadsuane, then Min would have seen Cadsuane in Rand's aura, and known that. In fact, we did not know that Cadsuane would have to teach Rand and the Ashaman something until after she appeared. Therefore, it follows to reason that if Min's viewing in question was about Cadsuane, it could not have appeared until she met Cadsuane, or rather, seen Rand and Cadsuane together. She had, however, seen Rand and Moiraine together on many occasions, and because of that Moiraine fits the profile. Moiraine fits, and Cadsuane does not.

[Majsju]

Thing is, Cadsuane is introduced in ACOS Ch 18. Mins viewing about rand failing without a woman dead and gone is mentioned in ACOS Ch 35, ie after Mins first meeting with cadsuane.

 

And in the very same chapter, Min also adds this:

it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed.

.

Which pretty much confirms that the first part is about Moiraine.

 

[CUBAREY]

but as Min has said before her viewings arent just a clear cut picture and Cadsuane would fit that profile because she is a legend amongst Aes Sedai and at the same time a myth, and since there was no foreshadowing about her before ACOS that would have been a perfect time to introduce her and afterwards have many people say they thought she was dead

 

The problem with that logic is that while Min's viewings are inexact we also know that when she understands the meaning they always come true. She "knew" that the viewing related to Moirraine. So for your theory to be true Min would have had to be mistaken about what the viewing meant and while she often has viewings that she does not know the meaning of she has never been wrong when she knows the meaning.

[mb]

Moiraine alive? We can be certain that she shall be alive before the end of the series, yet the books give no proof that she is right now.  We can only be certain only when she reappears.

 

Another thing, we can not yet be certain who the viewing points to.

Moiraine could be a likely candidate, yet there are a number of women who have died (and may come back alive).  Moiraine would be the main one of which Rand knows.

 

Another point:: All Min's viewings come true, even if she does not know what they mean.

 

[Majsju]

Actually, we know for sure that Moiraine is alive, from KOD.

[a pale tanned lover]

Thing is, Cadsuane is introduced in ACOS Ch 18. Mins viewing about rand failing without a woman dead and gone is mentioned in ACOS Ch 35, ie after Mins first meeting with cadsuane.

 

good point and what better time to have the viewing even tho min wouldnt know. her viewing seem to be a feeling, not its this person and i know them.

 

i accept we cant know for sure what Mins viewings means because she doesnt see them in in-depth detail, she just knows what will be, which is why i set my case up for it being Cadsuane, do we have any proof she will see Rand before the end?

[mb]

Actually, we know for sure that Moiraine is alive, from KOD.

 

If you are referring to Thom's letter, that is not proof of her being alive.  It is only proof that she knew what was going to happen.

 

[a pale tanned lover]

We know from LOC that Thom had that letter then as well

[Hydroc Claw]

Actually it is proof that She was alive at the time Thom read the letter.

 

If the Viewing were about Cadsuane, Min would have to be predicting that Cadsuane would die and be brought back to life.

[a pale tanned lover]

but we have no proof that Moiraine has died yet(thats just a belief and the same that could be said of Cadsuane), the only reason i thought about this thread is that maybe we have been looking at this the wrong way. RJ did say we only got a 1/3 right

[Majsju]

If you are referring to Thom's letter, that is not proof of her being alive.  It is only proof that she knew what was going to happen.

 

It is very much proof that she is alive, since she would hardly ask Thom and Mat to risk their lives to rescue a corpse.

 

but we have no proof that Moiraine has died yet(thats just a belief and the same that could be said of Cadsuane), the only reason i thought about this thread is that maybe we have been looking at this the wrong way. RJ did say we only got a 1/3 right

 

As been said before, it is not a matter of whether Moiraine is dead or alive, it is a matter of Min believing her to be dead.

 

[a pale tanned lover]

As been said before, it is not a matter of whether Moiraine is dead or alive, it is a matter of Min believing her to be dead.

 

 

 

 

surely that is only speculating on what Min saw? she doesn't see people exactly, she never said Berelain was going to fall for Galad which we all believe is going to happen, surely if her viewing was that exact she would have said "here berelain, galad going to do you"  ;D ;D ;D

[mb]

If you are referring to Thom's letter, that is not proof of her being alive.  It is only proof that she knew what was going to happen.

 

It is very much proof that she is alive, since she would hardly ask Thom and Mat to risk their lives to rescue a corpse.

 

That could only point to she being alive at the time of rescue; she can die after writing the letter and be resurrected before they rescue her.

 

[Majsju]

If you are referring to Thom's letter, that is not proof of her being alive.  It is only proof that she knew what was going to happen.

 

It is very much proof that she is alive, since she would hardly ask Thom and Mat to risk their lives to rescue a corpse.

 

That could only point to she being alive at the time of rescue; she can die after writing the letter and be resurrected before they rescue her.

 

 

Except that the only one we know with the ability to resurrect people is the DO, and Moiraine kinda plays for the wrong team.

 

[a pale tanned lover]

so that means that Moiraine isn't dead, neither is Cadsuane but both are/were believed to be and Cadsuane for a lot longer, and like mentioned before if Galad is the man in white who Berelain was going to fall for then we cant take it for granted that she knows exactly what she sees in her visions only what is going to happen

[Hydroc Claw]

surely that is only speculating on what Min saw? she doesn't see people exactly, she never said Berelain was going to fall for Galad which we all believe is going to happen, surely if her viewing was that exact she would have said "here berelain, galad going to do you"  ;D ;D ;D

 

Min's vision relating to this. "Just a man in white who will make her fall head over heels." It does not even come close to implying Galad. It is just speculation, and far more vague than our assumption about Moiraine

[a pale tanned lover]

Posted by: Hydroc Claw

Insert Quote

Quote from: a pale tanned lover on Today at 02:04:06 PM

surely that is only speculating on what Min saw? she doesn't see people exactly, she never said Berelain was going to fall for Galad which we all believe is going to happen, surely if her viewing was that exact she would have said "here berelain, galad going to do you"  Grin Grin Grin

 

Min's vision relating to this. "Just a man in white who will make her fall head over heels." It does not even come close to implying Galad. It is just speculation, and far more vague than our assumption about Moiraine

 

I couldn't agree more with you Hydroc Claw, which is what i was saying about Min's original viewing about Rand, about a woman dead and gone, which was the reason i brought this thread up because it puts a fresh aspect on what has been said before and as yet has no proof that it is totally in the wrong, just a matter of perspective

[mb]

Except that the only one we know with the ability to resurrect people is the DO, and Moiraine kinda plays for the wrong team.

 

Sounding the Horn could also be a form of resurrecting.

I take that the Horn's maker/makers were on the side of the Light; so the Dark Lord would not be the only one who could resurrect.

 

Also various passages imply the Creator having power over death.

 

[Hydroc Claw]

However, it is unclear whether "a woman dead and gone" is part of the viewing or Min's comment on the Viewing. If it is part of the Viewing, then the only way it can refer to Moiraine OR Cadsuane is if one of them died and was brought back to life, which we know can't happen unless the DO decides to do it, which he obviously won't. We assume that it is Min's comment on her own Viewing, and then Moiraine fits far better than Cadsuane. Since we learn about the viewing after Min learns about Cadsuane(and that she is alive) Cadsuane does not fit the description of "a woman dead and gone." Min would have to be claiming that the woman she just recently saw and knows for a fact is alive is "Dead and gone."

[a pale tanned lover]

i understand that point and agree with it but since neither Moiraine or Cadsuane is dead or has been, and lets face it Moiraine isn't because we pretty much know shes coming back, then it could imply to either, we simply don't get enough of a description of what Min saw to disect her viewing,and people seem to think that Moiraine will be the one to make Rand cry or laugh but the same is thought about Cadsuane as well

[Majsju]

Except that the only one we know with the ability to resurrect people is the DO, and Moiraine kinda plays for the wrong team.

 

Sounding the Horn could also be a form of resurrecting.

I take that the Horn's maker/makers were on the side of the Light; so the Dark Lord would not be the only one who could resurrect.

 

Also various passages imply the Creator having power over death.

 

 

The Horn calls the Heroes from T'A'R into the real world, it is completely unrelated to resurrection. When they appear, they are not actually alive.

The Creator could theoretically have the power to resurrect people, but introducing such a thing at this point...Not going to happen.

 

i understand that point and agree with it but since neither Moiraine or Cadsuane is dead or has been, and lets face it Moiraine isn't because we pretty much know shes coming back, then it could imply to either, we simply don't get enough of a description of what Min saw to disect her viewing,and people seem to think that Moiraine will be the one to make Rand cry or laugh but the same is thought about Cadsuane as well

 

No, it can not imply to either.

Cadsuane appears in ACOS Ch18. Mins viewing is mentioned in ACOS Ch35. Now, since Min has met Cadsuane when she refers to her viewing, Cadsuane is no longer "dead and gone". Moiraine however is. And we do get another reference to Moiraines importance in Mins viewings in the same chapter, that tells us that Moiraine being dead makes that the only viewing Min has had that has ever failed. These two references are blatantly obviously related.

[Hydroc Claw]

You seem to be confusing to different Viewings. One Viewing states "It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all." That is not the one we are discussing. Other than that, Majsju hit the nail on the head.