Cadsuane vs Moiraine

[a pale tanned lover]

Watching Rand, auras come and go, mostly flickering too quickly to see. She lied about her viewings; there was a second. He will almost certainly fail without a woman who is dead and gone

 

 

Ok but this viewing as far as i know was before Min met Cadsuane(i may be wrong)

 

A woman rides up, Lady Caraline Damodred. She looks like Moiraine. Min thinks Moiraine is the only viewing of hers that ever failed

 

Only reason why this viewing was brought up is because Caraline was there, so one could say since it was Mins POV that its not as blatant as it seems, not like she had one viewing and for no reason just thought of Moiraine. In fact when you look at it because she doesn't associate the two viewings as the same they couls very well be seperate

[Hydroc Claw]

It's after Min meets Cadsuane, I believe.

[a pale tanned lover]

Is it, if you find know the chapter that would help me, i know Rand met her in Chapter 18, just can't seem to find her meeting before chapter 35 :P

[Fryn]

Reread chp 35 please... and supply proof of why you believe you are right. It is impossible for us to discuss this with you unless we know where you are coming from.

 

I wrote up a reply for the other thread, but it was locked that explained the massive faults in your "theory." I will paraphrase them now.

 

Min's viewing in NOT that rand needs a dead person. This whole problem is about the initial vieewing of the entire first group with all of the fireflys. Min said right from the start that all of the initial party were needed to win and when all were together they pushed back the darkness. The entire chapter is in Mins PoV. She starts with thinking about how she didn't really lie to Rand about holding visions back. She thought that there was no point letting him know he would most likely fail without a woman that is dead (or so she thinks). This is not a viewing, but because of a failed veiwing regarding Morraine. The ONLY reason she has not told Rand about the viewing is because she doesn't want to make him feel bleak.

 

2 pages after that Min is in a state of near shock because she thinks she sees Moiraine standing their and her vision would come to pass. This is actually Caroline who looks nearly identical to Moiraine even in voice. She is dissappointed that it was not Moiraine, this is again going back to earlier in the chapter when she was thinking about the failed viewings.

 

2 pages after that they see Cadsaune. IF cads was the woman that min thought was dead she would of blurted it out from teh rooftops and told rand straight away. Since it was in her perspective she at the very least would of thought about it. The viewing was not about some dead nameless woman, it was a viewing that Min had clearly, and in regards to a person that she thinks is dead. It is NOT just an assumption. This is based on how Min's PoV was written. If we were going off of Rand's PoV then it would be an assumption, but we are going off of Min's PoV.

 

The fact that Min does not think of telling Rand straight away about the only viewing she has held back from Rand is proof enough. Min would love to be able to tell Rand about the viewing, and you can tell that from her PoV.

 

Lastly when Min looks at Cads there is an entirely different viewing. So the veiwing that Min has yet to tell Rand is from a woman who Min KNOWS and thinks is dead (Moiraine). You need to remember that Moiraine told Min not to tell Rand about some of the veiwings she saw. At a later point Min tells rand about all of the veiwings that she can. And from this PoV we know she has only held back one. So it is a viewing that she had previously about a woman that she knew by sight, but thinks to be dead.

 

If the veiwing were I think you need to meet dead people, Min would of told Rand about it. It is no more obscure than the merging viewing about Rand. She however knows the person the failed viewing is about, and chooses not to tell Rand ONLY because she thinks that woman is dead AND does not want to depress Rand. Her reasonings for not telling Rand contradict your theory. If Cads was the woman she would tell Rand the viewing. If it were about some faceless person unknown to her she would tell Rand. Based on her reaction to Caroline you can tell that the viewing was not from Rand himself, but a viewing she saw from another person.

 

Again if you can show proof of why you are right and everyone else is wrong supply it. Otherwise I would suggest you reread the sections in question. Heck even find some segments that justify that the woman in question isn't Moraine. And no chp 35 does not do that for you. I went back to reread it the other night to be sure. The PoV in WoT is very important and revealing, and in this case it was from Min herself.

[Roxinos]

I can't believe you bothered to come back and make another thread. Ah well, at least you're somewhat coherent in this one rather than just being a troll. Congrats on the upgrade.

 

As you easily put out your opinion in one quotable text, I'll use that.

 

Watching Rand, auras come and go, mostly flickering too quickly to see. She lied about her viewings; there was a second. He will almost certainly fail without a woman who is dead and gone

 

 

Ok but this viewing as far as i know was before Min met Cadsuane(i may be wrong

 

It doesn't matter if it is. If it is after she met Cadsuane, then it cannot possibly refer to Cadsuane. If it is before she met Cadsuane, it cannot possibly refer to Cadsuane. Min did not even know of Cadsuane's existence prior to meeting her. The viewings tell her what is going to happen to various people relative to events she knows about and people she knows. Typically, she just won't understand a viewing if it is related to things or people she is unaware of.

 

You may notice that every single viewing we have ever seen of hers is related in some way to people that she has met.

 

The viewings do not give her infinite knowledge about the universe. Just like the Three Oaths the Aes Sedai take, her viewings are limited to what she knows and understands about the world.

 

This is supported by the fact that Min said the viewing was about a woman dead and gone. If the viewings gave her some divine knowledge beyond her personal experience and the viewing had been about Cadsuane, she would have never said the viewing was about some woman dead and gone, she would have seen a strong, imposing woman or some other character trait of Cadsuane's. The dead and gone bit was a commonly held belief among Aes Sedai. Her viewing would have had to have tapped into a commonly held belief outside of Min's own in order to tell her that Cadsuane was dead and gone. That's something which has never happened before, and why would you assume it has happened in this case?

 

A woman rides up, Lady Caraline Damodred. She looks like Moiraine. Min thinks Moiraine is the only viewing of hers that ever failed

 

Only reason why this viewing was brought up is because Caraline was there, so one could say since it was Mins POV that its not as blatant as it seems, not like she had one viewing and for no reason just thought of Moiraine. In fact when you look at it because she doesn't associate the two viewings as the same they couls very well be seperate

 

That's faulty logic. You're separating the two events as if they had no correlation to one another. She was reminded of the viewing related to Moiraine, the viewing she had just been thinking on, when she encountered the woman who looked like Moiraine, and that led her to think that that viewing she had been thinking was the only viewing that had ever failed. She assumed it had failed because she thinks Moiraine is dead.

 

If the viewing gave her knowledge beyond what she could know, knowledge of Cadsuane before she met Cadsuane, then she would not think that the viewing had failed because she would not refer to Cadsuane as a woman dead and gone. Why would the viewing refer to a woman she had never met and refer to that woman as dead and gone? The viewings do not have a mind of their own, they cannot intentionally obfuscate the information she gleans from them. However, if it is after Min had met Cadsuane, then the whole argument is gone because Min would not have thought the viewing was referring to a woman dead and gone because Min had met Cadsuane and known that Cadsuane is alive and well.

 

Sorry, dude. Just give up. The viewing refers to Moiraine. It can only refer to Moiraine. And it cannot possibly refer to Cadsuane. Using both my logic and your own logic, it cannot refer to Cadsuane.

[a pale tanned lover]

Alright i see where your going with the arguement about what Min saw, but we know for fact from other viewings such as perrien with a hawk on one shoulder and a falcon on the other that she doesnt have to know the person, it only relates to the person shes looking at and therefore she doesn't have to know the people in the images. Also she never knew Aviendha, and just describes her as dangerous( like any woman isn't) thats a couple of reasons why i think that the jump into that the viewing was of Moiraine could be faulty.

 

All that said aside i'm really am going to have to find ACOS and have a good research through, because  i stil believe that it's about Cadsuane, and lets face it he would have failed by now if not for her

[Roxinos]

Alright i see where your going with the arguement about what Min saw, but we know for fact from other viewings such as perrien with a hawk on one shoulder and a falcon on the other that she doesnt have to know the person, it only relates to the person shes looking at and therefore she doesn't have to know the people in the images. Also she never knew Aviendha, and just describes her as dangerous( like any woman isn't) thats a couple of reasons why i think that the jump into that the viewing was of Moiraine could be faulty.

 

I addressed those circumstances in my post. Those are circumstances where Min did not know the people directly, but instead her viewing told her of a quality of the person. The Hawk and the Falcon is fairly obvious, Berelaine being the Hawk and Faile meaning falcon directly. They are character traits that are not subject to any bias or opinion. They are facts. Aviendha is an Aiel, and it is simply a fact that the Aiel are dangerous.

 

Those does not hold any sway over the circumstances in this instance because you are saying that if she had the viewing before she met Cadsuane, then a false perception that Aes Sedai had about Cadsuane was placed on the viewing, and if she had the viewing after she met Cadsuane, then...well that part just doesn't make any sense.

 

As I said, the only way it would link towards Cadsuane is if the viewing had been something along the lines of the viewings related to Perrin and the Falcon; a simple fact about the person in question being related to Min. If the viewing had been related to Cadsuane, it would have been about a strong woman or something to that effect. Min would not have had the viewing and related it to someone dead and gone.

 

All that said aside i'm really am going to have to find ACOS and have a good research through, because  i stil believe that it's about Cadsuane,

 

You're just being stupid and stubborn to still believe it is about Cadsuane. It cannot be about Cadsuane based on your own logic.

 

and lets face it he would have failed by now if not for her

 

No one is denying Cadsuane's importance in the Rand's life. In fact, Min has had a viewing about Cadsuane's importance. Telling Rand that she will teach him and all of the Ashaman something. Something very important that he must know if he has a hope of winning the Last Battle.

 

No one is saying Cadsuane isn't important. We're saying that you're wrong about the viewing in question. The viewing about a woman dead and gone. That viewing does not refer to Cadsuane. So stop being stubborn and just get over it. No matter what angle you look at it, that viewing cannot refer to Cadsuane.

[a pale tanned lover]

Tahnks Roxinos! u saying im being wool headed ;D

 

[TDR: 6, The Hunt

    PERRIN: An Aiel in a cage, a Tinker with a sword, a female falcon and a female hawk on his shoulders, a darkness swirling around him.

 

The viewing of Mins which would indicate that she would recognise what an Aiel is, this was before her viewing of a dangerous woman

 

The reason i said i'm going to review this reading ACOS was because the last time i brought this up, was the first time i posted so apoligies for Trollic dancing in a glass house hahaa, and i don't see it being stupid and stubborn just believe i can come back with more evidence to support myself, and give a stronger arguement, so at least if i am wrong i can rest easy, and if im right  ::) ::)

[Roxinos]

[TDR: 6, The Hunt

    PERRIN: An Aiel in a cage, a Tinker with a sword, a female falcon and a female hawk on his shoulders, a darkness swirling around him.

 

The viewing of Mins which would indicate that she would recognise what an Aiel is, this was before her viewing of a dangerous woman

 

Don't see what that has to do with anything.

 

Tahnks Roxinos! u saying im being wool headed Grin

 

I believe I said "stupid" and "stubborn." :-p

 

The reason i said i'm going to review this reading ACOS was because the last time i brought this up, was the first time i posted so apoligies for Trollic dancing in a glass house hahaa, and i don't see it being stupid and stubborn just believe i can come back with more evidence to support myself, and give a stronger arguement, so at least if i am wrong i can rest easy, and if im right  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

 

If you come to a board and post your beliefs and every single person who enters tells you that you're flat-out wrong, that's not something you "read up more" on to find out if you're right or wrong. Especially when every single reason you've given for why you believe what you believe has been refuted. You have been left with no quarter. You're being stubborn and stupid.

[a pale tanned lover]

 

If you come to a board and post your beliefs and every single person who enters tells you that you're flat-out wrong, that's not something you "read up more" on to find out if you're right or wrong. Especially when every single reason you've given for why you believe what you believe has been refuted. You have been left with no quarter. You're being stubborn and stupid.

 

Agreed but its been a while since i read books 7,8 and 9 and whilst i bow to my peers on this subject, i do want to double check and if i can't find any evidence to back up my claim then i won't be posting it again

[a pale tanned lover]

Just gotta put this one in first though

 

http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/4_prophecy/4.2_min-view.html#acos

 

[ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 546]

 

    MOIRAINE: "it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."

 

Obviously Min had some viewing of Moiraine which had not been fulfilled by the time Moir took a header through the Red Door. WE know Min is never wrong, and thus, Moiraine will be back!

 

This one is taken from the above website and in some degree sums up what i am trying to say, there is no evidence to suggest that the viewing she had of Moiraine was not from an earlier time, and therefore would support my arguement for it being of Cadsuane when she had this on

 

RAND: "He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone..."

 

There was no foreshadowing of Cadsuane so i think that this viewing was a major part of introducing us to the importance of Cadsuane in the story. We know that Min's viewing aren't just pictures of people and we have no detail of exactly what she saw.

 

 

[Roxinos]

First, we know Min is never wrong. Min knows she is never wrong, but she knows Moiraine is dead. Her viewing involving Moiraine and the fact that she knows Moiraine is dead conflict. That's why she says that her viewing is about a woman dead and gone.

 

But just because we know her viewings can never be wrong, backed up by the fact that we know Moiraine is still alive, doesn't mean she knows it. Min believed it, but that she thinks her viewing about Moiraine (a woman dead and gone) is wrong calls into question her viewings. Because she thinks Moiraine is dead.

 

and therefore would support my arguement for it being of Cadsuane when she had this on

 

No. Even if you were right that the viewing somehow doesn't refer to Moiraine, you would be wrong that it supports your argument about Cadsuane. It provides no evidence one way or the other towards Cadsuane being the subject of that viewing. That's faulty logic, again. As I've said several times, itcannot refer to Cadsuane. Using your logic, the viewing may refer to someone other then Cadsuane, but not Cadsuane herself.

 

There was no foreshadowing of Cadsuane so i think that this viewing was a major part of introducing us to the importance of Cadsuane in the story. We know that Min's viewing aren't just pictures of people and we have no detail of exactly what she saw.

 

No foreshadowing does not mean that this is foreshadowing.

 

As I said before, we know Cadsuane's importance in the story. Min had a viewing about Cadsuane once Min met her and that tell us the importance. There doesn't have to be a forewarning of a person coming up which will be very important to Rand. That's even more faulty logic. Cadsuane is important to Rand. But not because she is a woman Min thought was dead and gone who will help Rand. She is important because, as I've said before, she will teach Rand and the Ashaman something important that they've forgotten.

 

Stop it. Just stop.

[Fryn]

As you mentioned, you are probably best spent reading the chapters in question. A note about those quotes. They are not actual viewings. They are later observations about previous viewings. It is quite apparant when you read the sections they are in. There are several times where min will rephrase or mention old viewings in a new way throughout the series and some of them are doubled up on that viewing list.

 

When looking at things like viewings prophecies etc, the best thing you can do is use the sites to find the sections they are in and read the entire section where the viewing is. In a lot of cases the surrounding few paragraphs are just as important. Both of the two quotes you listed for example are not actual viewings, but Min thinking about old viewings. And in both cases the quote on that page is a lot shorter than needed to get what Min is thinking about. One you need the full paragraph and the other you need the info from 2 pages where she is thinking about old viewings.

 

There is a small small small chance that the woman in question is not Moiraine (lets say around 1 in a trillion - and that 1 lets just say something funky like the woman Rand blasted with balefire =p), but there is imo absolutely no chance that the dead woman is in reference to Cadsuane based on teh context and surrounding text.

[a pale tanned lover]

quote

First, we know Min is never wrong. Min knows she is never wrong, but she knows Moiraine is dead. Her viewing involving Moiraine and the fact that she knows Moiraine is dead conflict. That's why she says that her viewing is about a woman dead and gone.

 

But just because we know her viewings can never be wrong, backed up by the fact that we know Moiraine is still alive, doesn't mean she knows it. Min believed it, but that she thinks her viewing about Moiraine (a woman dead and gone) is wrong calls into question her viewings. Because she thinks Moiraine is dead.

unquote

 

the viewing never said that it was a women min KNEW was dead and gone either, which if it did would mean Moiraine, nothing in there to suggest Min knew the woman

 

quote

No. Even if you were right that the viewing somehow doesn't refer to Moiraine, you would be wrong that it supports your argument about Cadsuane. It provides no evidence one way or the other towards Cadsuane being the subject of that viewing. That's faulty logic, again. As I've said several times, itcannot refer to Cadsuane. Using your logic, the viewing may refer to someone other then Cadsuane, but not Cadsuane herself.

unquote

 

my logic is upheld though simply in that we dont know what Min saw only her interpretation of what she saw, faile was seen as a falcon, thereby the viewing could have been only symbolic.

 

quote

As I said before, we know Cadsuane's importance in the story. Min had a viewing about Cadsuane once Min met her and that tell us the importance. There doesn't have to be a forewarning of a person coming up which will be very important to Rand. That's even more faulty logic. Cadsuane is important to Rand. But not because she is a woman Min thought was dead and gone who will help Rand. She is important because, as I've said before, she will teach Rand and the Ashaman something important that they've forgotten.

unquote

 

i don't disagree with this point, it is sfter all a direct viewing on Cadsuane, the other wasn't.

 

I don't know why this point seems to be shot down with so much distain since we certainly have no damming proof that it is definatley about Moiraine, i know it goes against the general concensus

 

aw well 100,000 lemmings can't be wrong :D

 

[a pale tanned lover]

Fryn, i took those quotes off the link you provided for me in the previous link

[Roxinos]

As you mentioned, you are probably best spent reading the chapters in question. A note about those quotes. They are not actual viewings. They are later observations about previous viewings. It is quite apparant when you read the sections they are in. There are several times where min will rephrase or mention old viewings in a new way throughout the series and some of them are doubled up on that viewing list.

 

When looking at things like viewings prophecies etc, the best thing you can do is use the sites to find the sections they are in and read the entire section where the viewing is. In a lot of cases the surrounding few paragraphs are just as important. Both of the two quotes you listed for example are not actual viewings, but Min thinking about old viewings. And in both cases the quote on that page is a lot shorter than needed to get what Min is thinking about. One you need the full paragraph and the other you need the info from 2 pages where she is thinking about old viewings.

 

That's a very good point that I was trying to make but I just never brought myself to make it directly.

 

Pale, please learn to use quotes properly. It is very simple. There is a button that looks like a quote bubble. It gives you the tags [*quote][/quote*] (without the asterisks). You put whatever you want quoted inside those tags and it will come up the way it appears in my text.

 

the viewing never said that it was a women min KNEW was dead and gone either, which if it did would mean Moiraine, nothing in there to suggest Min knew the woman

 

Fryn mentioned this. What you've quoted in all cases are not the direct viewings. They are Min's later perspective of the viewing. You don't know what the viewing said, but when Min knows who the viewing is about, she mentions it. In this case, she knows the viewing is about Moiraine, and she thinks that it is the one time she is wrong about the viewing because she knows Moiraine is dead. She wouldn't think she was wrong if she didn't know the person who was "dead and gone."

 

my logic is upheld though simply in that we dont know what Min saw only her interpretation of what she saw, faile was seen as a falcon, thereby the viewing could have been only symbolic.

 

And why would "a woman dead and gone" be a symbol used to represent Cadsuane? Cadsuane was not dead. She was not gone. If it was after Min met Cadsuane, then it could not have been a symbol by your logic to represent Cadsuane. If it was before she met Cadsuane, then it still doesn't make sense that "dead and gone" would represent Cadsuane.

 

You would say that "a woman dead and gone" is a symbol representing Cadsuane because everyone thought that Cadsuane was dead and gone. This isn't true at all. Only Aes Sedai who had known Cadsuane thought she was dead. And even then, not every Aes Sedai thought she was dead. Only the ones who had known her a long time ago. They are not necessarily a reliable source. So there is no reason for "a woman dead and gone" to represent Cadsuane. If what Min saw was a symbol which represented Cadsuane, then it would be something far more ambiguous which speaks to the character of Cadsuane rather than a belief held by a few people. Plus, Min wouldn't think that she was wrong about the viewing which she does.

 

I don't know why this point seems to be shot down with so much distain since we certainly have no damming proof that it is definatley about Moiraine, i know it goes against the general concensus

 

Yes. Yes we do. Everything we've said here is damning proof that it is about Moiraine. What? The only thing which would satisfy you is something in Min's point of view that said, "Man, it sure sucks that that viewing I had about Moiraine was wrong, after all, she's dead and gone and all"?

 

Are you seriously saying that nothing would satisfy you other than that? Well then, how do you deal with all of the implicitly stated things put forth in the books? Not everything is explicit after all. Do you just formulate your own opinions about everything and say to hell with logic?

 

Fryn, i took those quotes off the link you provided for me in the previous link

 

He's not doubting the source. He is mentioning the context of the quotes in question.

 

There is a small small small chance that the woman in question is not Moiraine (lets say around 1 in a trillion - and that 1 lets just say something funky like the woman Rand blasted with balefire =p), but there is imo absolutely no chance that the dead woman is in reference to Cadsuane based on teh context and surrounding text.

 

Which is exactly what I've been saying all this time. Thanks, Fryn. :D

[a pale tanned lover]

I think you get me wrong in what i am saying though, i am only discussing the possibility of it being about Cadsuane and not Moiraine and as such no-one has brought any quotes to disprove that it isn't just alot of widely held beliefs.

 

I wish i could get the quotes and the paragraphs around them to read, but if i don't have them to hand and no-one is giving me evidence to contrarey, then my point is still upheld.

 

Oh cheers for the heads up on quotes as well, was wondering about that

[Fryn]

There is no viewing that Rand needs a dead woman. Min is thinking about old viewings in the cases where those quotes come from. You really need to read it in context and not just grab the one line. They are some of Min's thoughts and unlike most of the other viewings we do not get them in words from another characters perspective. Those two quotes are nothing like the other viewings in the book.

 

Since it sounds like you don't have a copy of the book this is what I mean

 

That one viewing came and went a hundred times a day, and whenever Mat or Perrin were present, it encompassed them, too, and sometimes others. A vast shadow lurked over him, swallowing up thousands of tiny lights like fireflies that hurled themselves into  it in an attempt to fill up the darkness. Today, there seemed to be countless tens of thousands of fireflies, but the shadow seemed larger, too. Somehow that viewing represented his battle with the shadow, but he almost never wanted to know how it stood. Not that she could really say, except that the shadow always seemed to be winning, to one degree or another. She sighed with relief to see the image go away.

A tiny stab of guilt made her shift her seat on the coverlet. She had not really lied when he asked what viewings she had kept back. Not really. What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? He became bleak too easily as it was. She had to keep his spirits up, make him remember to laugh.

 

There is more relevant info before and after that. It just shows that its bad to just pull that one line out of context. It wasn't an actual viewing, but Min thinking about regrets. And since it happened right after a viewing that concerned Moiraine... remember that the fireflies were mentioned in the first book and Min made is sound like all present there had to be around. If one of those are in Min's mind dead... then she would think that Rand would fail. Realistically the only veiwing that Min hasn't told rand was Min's viewing of Moiraine.

[Roxinos]

I think you get me wrong in what i am saying though, i am only discussing the possibility of it being about Cadsuane and not Moiraine and as such no-one has brought any quotes to disprove that it isn't just alot of widely held beliefs.

 

ARGH!

 

Do you bother to LISTEN? I think that's the one thing I have explained. You can believe the 1 in a million chance she's not referring to Moiraine when she says "a woman dead and gone" but she simply cannot be referring to Cadsuane.

 

If Min had thought "What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?" before he had met Cadsuane, then she wouldn't have thought of her as a woman dead and gone because there is no reason for a belief held by a few people to be a symbol representative of Cadsuane. See Fryn's post for the context surrounding the quote to explain why it is not a symbol but rather her perception of the viewing.

 

If Min had thought "What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?" after he had met Cadsuane, then she would obviously not have thought of Cadsuane as dead and gone.

 

Simple.

[a pale tanned lover]

Cheers for that quote Fryn, most helpful, i really need to get a hold of that book! ;D

[Tyrell]

First, we know Min is never wrong.

 

And for that, despite otherwise being one of the women in the series who arn't terminally annoying, she must die.

[Hybrid]

Resist your sig, Roxinos.  We might have to lock you up then.

[Roxinos]

Heh. I was actually thinking of removing that. Too much nostalgic value, though.

 

:-p Be careful. It includes you, as well.

[Hybrid]

I will stay away from you, then, when sharp objects are nearby.  ;D

[a pale tanned lover]

:D