The access keys

[Asmo]

Weren't the pair of them that Rand found amonst the stuff that the Aiel took from the Aes Sedai to Rhuidean? (I'm not sure, asking here). If they had them back then, why didn't they use them on the spot?

[Luckers]

To do what? They couldn't have cleansed the Taint--they had no Shadar Logoth to negate the evil of the Taint. They could have used them to assert some peace i suppose--to a limited degree anyway. By that stage the world was already forty years into the breaking. Society had collapsed except for those Aes Sedai Solinda had gathered and the Aiel.

 

Beyond that, I'd guess there was a foretelling involved. Knowing the Access Keys had to go with the Aiel needn't be recorded in the Cycle--indeed, doing so would have compromised their position.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Also, Rand comments later that he is frightened of the ammount of Power available to him when using the Choeden Kal, and thats later on when Rands fully developped. Imagine what that would feel like before he reached his peak strength.

 

Plus Rand didnt really know what he could do with the Choeden Kal, he only had the idea of trying Cleansing Saidin when he began to see signs of the Ashamans sanity wavering.

[Sabio]

Well for one to get the one for the males some place were an insane male channaler wouldn't find it.  Second no way of knowing if the Aes Sedai knew every object that was being transported.  From the sounds of it they were hauling alot of stuff.

[Jambo]

Plus Rand didnt really know what he could do with the Choeden Kal, he only had the idea of trying Cleansing Saidin when he began to see signs of the Ashamans sanity wavering.

 

Not really true, he told Taim he was going to cleanse Saidin before any of the Ashaman started going nuts. I think he probably got the idea after he started hearing LTT in his noggin.

[Cedric Greene]

Not really true, he told Taim he was going to cleanse Saidin before any of the Ashaman started going nuts. I think he probably got the idea after he started hearing LTT in his noggin.

 

Always assumed it was one of his 3 questions to the finns...

[stapes2007]

Always assumed it was one of his 3 questions to the finns...

I think it was one of his questions.  I remember Rand thinking about his strategy for the Cleansing and saying something about he had got the idea from a place where he knew the answers were true or something like that.

[Asmo]

To do what? They couldn't have cleansed the Taint--they had no Shadar Logoth to negate the evil of the Taint. They could have used them to assert some peace i suppose--to a limited degree anyway. By that stage the world was already forty years into the breaking. Society had collapsed except for those Aes Sedai Solinda had gathered and the Aiel.

 

To do the thing they were built for - start killing Shadowspawn. Heck, use them as a weapon against insane male channelers and Dreadlords. And more importantly, start trying to figure out a way to cleanse saidin.

 

Beyond that, I'd guess there was a foretelling involved. Knowing the Access Keys had to go with the Aiel needn't be recorded in the Cycle--indeed, doing so would have compromised their position.

 

A Foretelling for them to entrust the Choedan Kal access keys with the Aiel? Eh. Maybe, but it sounds like a strange Foretelling. More importantly, it doesn't look like something open to interpretation, which means that the Foretelling would have to be very specific in order for the Aes Sedai not only to understand it this way but to be so certain of it that they would leave the world's strongest weapons with a bunch of Aiel going who-knows-where. No Foretelling we've seen so far is that clear.

 

Also, Rand comments later that he is frightened of the ammount of Power available to him when using the Choeden Kal, and thats later on when Rands fully developped. Imagine what that would feel like before he reached his peak strength.

 

He was afraid because he had experienced the magnification of the taint induced by Callandor, and was afraid that that was the result of the overwhelming Power. Later on, he was afraid because of the channeling sickness he was suffering due to his link to Moridin, fearing what would happen if it struck when he had hold of the Power, especially using a sa'angreal.

 

Plus Rand didnt really know what he could do with the Choeden Kal, he only had the idea of trying Cleansing Saidin when he began to see signs of the Ashamans sanity wavering.

 

Forget about the Cleansing. They could be put to simpler uses - wipe out Shadowspawn and Darkfriends. Post-Breaking Aes Sedai really needed to do that.

 

Well for one to get the one for the males some place were an insane male channaler wouldn't find it.  Second no way of knowing if the Aes Sedai knew every object that was being transported.  From the sounds of it they were hauling alot of stuff.

 

They wouldn't know what they were carrying? Age of Legends Aes Sedai probably had perfect knowledge of the objects of the Power in their possession - no use judging them by Third Age standards. The access keys were constructed at that time - for them to have them, it means they were somehow involved in the story, so they would know what they were. And male one aside, why not use the female one?

[Sabio]

They wouldn't know what they were carrying? Age of Legends Aes Sedai probably had perfect knowledge of the objects of the Power in their possession - no use judging them by Third Age standards. The access keys were constructed at that time - for them to have them, it means they were somehow involved in the story, so they would know what they were. And male one aside, why not use the female one?

 

Read how many stuff was in Rhudiean, with the amount of ter'angreal. angreal, and sa'angreal about in those days it is unlikely an Aes Sedai knew what ever object did let alone who stuffed what in the wagons.  Sounds like it was a quick clean out and get everything out of there to safety. Possible an Aes Sedai with a fortelling that they would be needed someday just put them in there. Not saying they didn't know just it was a possibility they didn't with how much stuff was in the wagons.  Also have to remember at the time of LTT's attack the ter'angeal were missing behind enemy lines.  Plus if they started their journey 40 years after the breaking as another poster suggested there is the chance they had never seen them before.

 

One reason if they knew what they were not to use them was they were afraid to use them, since many thought even using one could break the world.  Not to mention in a world where people are widly using the power as a weapon the last thing you want is to unleash that much of the power.

 

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Second no way of knowing if the Aes Sedai knew every object that was being transported.  From the sounds of it they were hauling alot of stuff.

They wouldn't know what they were carrying?

I think he means that they had so many that they might not have realised what they had.

Age of Legends Aes Sedai probably had perfect knowledge of the objects of the Power in their possession

Says who? There were, by all accounts, terangreal that did all sorts of things. Why would all Aes Sedai know exactly what every terangreal did? Especially when one thinks that the access keys to the Choedan Kal were unique...

And male one aside, why not use the female one?

For fear of the Shadow coming to get the key. - Weak, I know. Personally, I'd either have, a., used the Choedan Kal, or b., buried the keys in the middle of nowhere/thrown them in the sea.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Forget about the Cleansing. They could be put to simpler uses - wipe out Shadowspawn and Darkfriends. Post-Breaking Aes Sedai really needed to do that

UNQUOTE

 

And Rand, who is paranoid about going insane, doesnt want to hold that much Power himself. He is already worried that he will lose control of himself and kill everyone. If you were worried about that, would you be in a rush to use the Choeden Kal unless you absolutely had to? I wouldnt.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Dreadlord on September 15, 2008, 01:50:26 AM

Plus Rand didnt really know what he could do with the Choeden Kal, he only had the idea of trying Cleansing Saidin when he began to see signs of the Ashamans sanity wavering.

 

 

Not really true, he told Taim he was going to cleanse Saidin before any of the Ashaman started going nuts. I think he probably got the idea after he started hearing LTT in his noggin.

 

His original intention was to use Callandor, but after Cadsuane reveals the weakness in Callandor he's forced to confront the idea of using the Choedan Kal. Dreadlord is right in that Rand was avoiding the idea of using them, and was forced to for the Cleansing, though he is wrong that Rand only started thinking about the cleansing that late.

 

To do the thing they were built for - start killing Shadowspawn. Heck, use them as a weapon against insane male channelers and Dreadlords. And more importantly, start trying to figure out a way to cleanse saidin.

 

To what effect though? By that stage the shadowspawn had been completely scattered by Latra Posae Decume. There was not forces of them to any form of degree. Same with male channelers and Forsaken (again, darkfriend channelers in the Age of Legends were Forsaken, or Chosen. Dreadlords was the name given to Darkfriend channelers in the Trolloc Wars.)

 

As for cleansing saidin, they figured out a way. The same method employed at the Eye and the Cleansing, but without Shadar Logoth to funnel the evil of the taint into, actually cleansing the Taint would have been impossible. Which i stated in my initial post.

 

Ultimately using the Choedan Kal at that stage would have been like using a nuclear weapon to take out an ant. Chaos was so widespread that employing them in any meaningful way was impossible. And lets not forget they were completely untested, and likely at that stage beyond the ability to test. Consider LTT's thoughts before the Cleansing.

 

A Foretelling for them to entrust the Choedan Kal access keys with the Aiel? Eh. Maybe, but it sounds like a strange Foretelling. More importantly, it doesn't look like something open to interpretation, which means that the Foretelling would have to be very specific in order for the Aes Sedai not only to understand it this way but to be so certain of it that they would leave the world's strongest weapons with a bunch of Aiel going who-knows-where. No Foretelling we've seen so far is that clear.

 

The foretelling might simply have been that the Choedan Kal must go with the Aiel. Thats no more clear than Gitara or Lidya's foretelling, yet still more than enough for the Aes Sedai to act. Hell it may even have been the beginning of the plans to send the Aiel off with ter'angreal. We know the Aes Sedai were looking for a way to protect the Aiel, after all, and Desandre's gift was very powerful.

 

Forget about the Cleansing. They could be put to simpler uses - wipe out Shadowspawn and Darkfriends. Post-Breaking Aes Sedai really needed to do that.

 

You are talking about 300 years later. Had they employed it then they would not have achieved anything, and they would have become immediate targets for any channeler nearby looking for an advantage. They would have ended dead long before they actually did any real damage, and who's to say who would have ended up in charge of them then.

[Asmo]

His original intention was to use Callandor, but after Cadsuane reveals the weakness in Callandor he's forced to confront the idea of using the Choedan Kal. Dreadlord is right in that Rand was avoiding the idea of using them, and was forced to for the Cleansing, though he is wrong that Rand only started thinking about the cleansing that late.

 

Well, that doesn't really matter, since Callandor's weakness isn't shared by the Choedan Kal. Rand didn't fear using the Choedan Kal because of the taint magnification, he feared using them for more direct reasons, such as getting overwhelmed by armies of DF Asha'man and Black Ajah and Forsaken when he starts the Cleansing, or getting that weird sickness while he's channeling through them and lose control.

 

To what effect though? By that stage the shadowspawn had been completely scattered by Latra Posae Decume. There was not forces of them to any form of degree. Same with male channelers and Forsaken (again, darkfriend channelers in the Age of Legends were Forsaken, or Chosen. Dreadlords was the name given to Darkfriend channelers in the Trolloc Wars.)

 

There's one tiny task that is vaguely outlined by Rand... "With the other, he could Skim to Shayol Ghul itself, put an end to everything..." (not exact quote). Of course, the Bore had been patched by then, but still, we know that Shayol Ghul was operational. Why not be done with Shadowspawn? And for that reason, with the thing itself?

 

As for cleansing saidin, they figured out a way. The same method employed at the Eye and the Cleansing, but without Shadar Logoth to funnel the evil of the taint into, actually cleansing the Taint would have been impossible. Which i stated in my initial post.

 

Impossible. Perhaps it was impossible. From what we know, it is probably impossible. But they wouldn't really know it yet. They must have at least speculated that there could be some way of cleansing the Source, and what better way to find it than start looking for it?

 

Ultimately using the Choedan Kal at that stage would have been like using a nuclear weapon to take out an ant. Chaos was so widespread that employing them in any meaningful way was impossible. And lets not forget they were completely untested, and likely at that stage beyond the ability to test. Consider LTT's thoughts before the Cleansing.

 

They could go to the Blight and take care of what was there, not randomly chase down Shadowspawn and Darkfriends across the world. Once the core is dealt with, the rest can be taken care of in due course. As for testing... I cannot know what ways there were to 'test' the thing without using it, but couldn't they at least try to do that?

 

The foretelling might simply have been that the Choedan Kal must go with the Aiel. Thats no more clear than Gitara or Lidya's foretelling, yet still more than enough for the Aes Sedai to act. Hell it may even have been the beginning of the plans to send the Aiel off with ter'angreal. We know the Aes Sedai were looking for a way to protect the Aiel, after all, and Desandre's gift was very powerful.

 

I guess that makes sense, I suppose. Hmm, which reminds me, did we have a POV of one of those Aes Sedai or was it just the Aiel fellow? I need to go back and check. However, I doubt there was anything in their thoughts that implied as such. Not to say that it neccessarily bars the possibility, but if RJ's intention was to convey that, he could've at least hinted at it in their thoughts, if not outright say it.

 

You are talking about 300 years later. Had they employed it then they would not have achieved anything, and they would have become immediate targets for any channeler nearby looking for an advantage. They would have ended dead long before they actually did any real damage, and who's to say who would have ended up in charge of them then.

 

You have Rand and the Cleansing in mind. Rand was directing his flows to do a specific thing, and he doubted he could change them to do something else if they came after him, once he had begun. This does in no way restrict the uses the Choedan Kal can be put to. Not to mention, noone would dare come lose - most of the Forsaken didn't want to do it, and they knew what Rand would be doing - but even if they did, as long as the user's attention was not wholly put to doing something, he could simply annihilate them on the spot. There are also wards, barriers etc etc.

 

Moreover, here's this (supposing a Foretelling wasn't involved): Let's say they won't use the things. Why not at least keep them on their persons, so if the need presents itself, they have them ready? And if not that, entrusting them to a bunch of peace-loving fellows whom the first warmonger could completely annihilate without retaliation, and thus claim their possessions, is probably the least safe place to put the world's most powerful weapons.

 

Heck, destroying them would have been smarter than that.

 

Oh, and in an earlier response, I don't think the Aes Sedai would have just given out a bunch of unidentified objects to the Aiel. Remember some ter'angreal do not need anything special to trigger.

[Luckers]

Well, that doesn't really matter, since Callandor's weakness isn't shared by the Choedan Kal. Rand didn't fear using the Choedan Kal because of the taint magnification, he feared using them for more direct reasons, such as getting overwhelmed by armies of DF Asha'man and Black Ajah and Forsaken when he starts the Cleansing, or getting that weird sickness while he's channeling through them and lose control.

 

What? You said that he had probably been planning to use the Choedan Kal since book six when he first started hearing voices. He did not, he intended to use Callandor originally, and only stopped when he learnt of the flaw. Which is what i stated... did i miss something?

 

Beyond which, Rand did not know the Choedan Kal would not cause the same effect as Callandor--because he did not know Callandor was flawed. And he was worried that using the Choedan Kal would be even worse than Callandor. Furthermore Rand did not consider the possibility of getting overwhelmed. Originally he intended it be just him and Nynaeve--it was only because Cadsuane followed him that he had a coterie of help. Previous to that it didn't occur to him.

 

There's one tiny task that is vaguely outlined by Rand... "With the other, he could Skim to Shayol Ghul itself, put an end to everything..." (not exact quote). Of course, the Bore had been patched by then, but still, we know that Shayol Ghul was operational. Why not be done with Shadowspawn? And for that reason, with the thing itself?

 

Rand was wrong, misled into that belief by Lanfear who stated that the Choedan Kal could be used for such a thing. The original makers created them to enable the Light to shield the bore until a more permenant solution could be found, thus suggesting they did not reguard the Choedan Kal to be capable to 'putting an end to everything'. As such, the sealing already did what the Choedan Kal had been intended to do anyway.

 

As for why not be done with shadowspawn--again, because that was impossible. The Shadowspawn like everyone else had been scattered by that stage. They would be fighting small bands only--it would be like using a nuclear warhead to kill an ant. Impractical, and ultimately pointless. And given the amount of power used likely to draw every 'out-for-themselves' channeler in the area. Sooner or later one would pull off a pot shot and then randoms would control the most powerful weapon in the world.

 

Don't get me wrong though, i do think they could have been used, and that it might have made some small difference--not a great one, but it could have shifted a small amount of things. I reckon a prophecy was involved.

 

Impossible. Perhaps it was impossible. From what we know, it is probably impossible. But they wouldn't really know it yet. They must have at least speculated that there could be some way of cleansing the Source, and what better way to find it than start looking for it?

 

Well, again, they'd already found a way, the problem being that there was nowhere to put the taint. The one attempt they made killed a hundred Aes Sedai in the doing. Employing the Choedan Kal would have destroyed the world.

 

And given how much Desandre saw of Rand, i'd say they knew the taint was still in effect--she even spoke a prophecy specifically about it, the healing of wounds of madness.

 

They could go to the Blight and take care of what was there, not randomly chase down Shadowspawn and Darkfriends across the world. Once the core is dealt with, the rest can be taken care of in due course. As for testing... I cannot know what ways there were to 'test' the thing without using it, but couldn't they at least try to do that?

 

The shadowspawn didn't gather in the Blighted Lands until near the end of the Breaking, prior to that they were spread out accross the Shadow controlled territories, and they'd been further broken apart by Latra Posae Decume in the forty years prior to the destruction of Paaren Disen. There was no 'core'.

 

I guess that makes sense, I suppose. Hmm, which reminds me, did we have a POV of one of those Aes Sedai or was it just the Aiel fellow? I need to go back and check. However, I doubt there was anything in their thoughts that implied as such. Not to say that it neccessarily bars the possibility, but if RJ's intention was to convey that, he could've at least hinted at it in their thoughts, if not outright say it.

 

Just the Aiel... but which thought was it you were confused about--if its the Choedan Kal, yeah, thats definately just guesswork on my part. If its about the fake mission of sending the Aiel away by getting them to guard the ter'angreal, RJ has commented on that directly a couple of times in addition to the the implications of Solinda's little speech about the Aiel singing to Mondaren.

 

You have Rand and the Cleansing in mind. Rand was directing his flows to do a specific thing, and he doubted he could change them to do something else if they came after him, once he had begun. This does in no way restrict the uses the Choedan Kal can be put to. Not to mention, noone would dare come lose - most of the Forsaken didn't want to do it, and they knew what Rand would be doing - but even if they did, as long as the user's attention was not wholly put to doing something, he could simply annihilate them on the spot. There are also wards, barriers etc etc.

 

I wasn't speaking of being locked into weaves, i was speaking of channelers sensing the use, and wanting that power for themselves in a time when everyone was out for themselves. The Choedan Kal won't save the channeler if they are struck by a shocklance before they are aware... or even an arrow.

 

Moreover, here's this (supposing a Foretelling wasn't involved): Let's say they won't use the things. Why not at least keep them on their persons, so if the need presents itself, they have them ready? And if not that, entrusting them to a bunch of peace-loving fellows whom the first warmonger could completely annihilate without retaliation, and thus claim their possessions, is probably the least safe place to put the world's most powerful weapons.

 

Well again if they end up dead, the Choedan Kal end up in random hands. And there was a very high possibility of death at that stage.

 

 

[Asmo]

Actually Rand did fear using the Choedan Kal because of Callandor--he remembers the little girl he tries to raise from the dead specifically in relation to his his fear o using them.

 

That was before he learnt that Callandor had that specific weakness. After that, he stopped worrying about going nuts from the immense amount of the Power.

 

Furthermore Rand did not consider the possibility of getting overwhelmed. Originally he intended it be just him and Nynaeve--it was only because Cadsuane followed him that he had a coterie of help.

 

Early in WH, when he and Min sneak out of Cairhien, Rand declares that he will cleanse the Source, but killing Dashiva and the others has to come first. He explains that if he uses the Choedan Kal, everyone will feel it and Forsaken and DF Asha'man might come after him, but he probably won't be able to stop what he's doing to deal with them. He says he can't do anything about the Forsaken, but he can at least make sure the renegades can't interfere, and with a little luck, the rest will work out.

 

So he was worried about being attacked, and it's pretty obvious what he meant to do. He meant to go back to Cairhien, fetch Narishma and Flinn who he knew were trustworthy along with a few Dragonsworn sisters, and give Callandor to them. I mean, if that wasn't the plan, why even take Callandor with him to Far Madding?

[Luckers]

Sorry, the posting of that was accidental... i went back and redid my post fully.

 

Early in WH, when he and Min sneak out of Cairhien, Rand declares that he will cleanse the Source, but killing Dashiva and the others has to come first. He explains that if he uses the Choedan Kal, everyone will feel it and Forsaken and DF Asha'man might come after him, but he probably won't be able to stop what he's doing to deal with them. He says he can't do anything about the Forsaken, but he can at least make sure the renegades can't interfere, and with a little luck, the rest will work out.

 

Which is not to say he feared it--he didn't. Practically he looks to remove any threats he can before acting, but he acknolwedges that the Forsaken would come and he can't stop them--but shows no hesitance about the issue.

 

Aside from which we have his actual comment about why he didn't use the Choedan Kal, which was fear of what Callandor had done to him.

 

He meant to go back to Cairhien, fetch Narishma and Flinn who he knew were trustworthy along with a few Dragonsworn sisters, and give Callandor to them. I mean, if that wasn't the plan, why even take Callandor with him to Far Madding?

 

Because he couldn't leave it lying around in the Sun Palace. He never displays any indication of bringing the others into it, and indeed his conversation with Nynaeve suggests he did not.

[Asmo]

Sorry, the posting of that was accidental... i went back and redid my post fully.

 

Oh. That was actually quite funny, because I had just read a response of yours in another thread, telling another poster that he did not address your argument fully. Anyway, I'll reply to this post first and address the others in the end of my post.

 

Which is not to say he feared it--he didn't. Practically he looks to remove any threats he can before acting, but he acknolwedges that the Forsaken would come and he can't stop them--but shows no hesitance about the issue.

 

Aside from which we have his actual comment about why he didn't use the Choedan Kal, which was fear of what Callandor had done to him.

 

That comment was before he learnt about Callandor's weakness. Afterwards, no fear is expressed towards experiencing the same effect with the Choedan Kal. Why? Because up to that point, he believed that the taint magnification was an after-effect of the overflow of the Power, and with the CK, it'd be much worse. Which wasn't the case, as he found out. And again... he didn't fear the Forsaken because he did intend to bring assistance, as I explain further below...

 

Because he couldn't leave it lying around in the Sun Palace. He never displays any indication of bringing the others into it, and indeed his conversation with Nynaeve suggests he did not.

 

Then why not put it behind a warded wall like he did with the access keys? Why bother gathering it with him, bother so much that he actually debated bringing it into the city against burying it in the ground, of all things? Clearly he intended something with it. And also, he didn't bring it to the Royal Palace in Caemlyn - someone would've recognized it, or at least see something unusual, there, covered in cloth or not. So bringing it in for safekeeping was not the reason - because if it was, where was it all the time until he went to Far Madding? Probably kept somewhere safe, where it could have remained indefinately until it was needed. Why did he need it there, where it could be retrieved right before he went to the Cleansing? Did he intend to use them both? I doubt it. He intended it for someone else. Cadsuane and her party arriving made these plans easier. Also, it sort of explains, somewhat, his relative apathy at learning they were there, but his agitation over finding out Narishma, Hopwil and Flinn had been bonded.

 

What? You said that he had probably been planning to use the Choedan Kal since book six when he first started hearing voices. He did not, he intended to use Callandor originally, and only stopped when he learnt of the flaw. Which is what i stated... did i miss something?

 

Yeah. I wasn't the one who said he was planning to use the Choedan Kal since Book 6. Another person did, and he was wrong, because it's only after Cadsuane explains about Callandor in book 8 that he thinks "He had hoped it would be enough for another purpose, but now..." or something to that extent, and reasons out that the use of the Choedan Kal is neccessary.

 

Rand was wrong, misled into that belief by Lanfear who stated that the Choedan Kal could be used for such a thing. The original makers created them to enable the Light to shield the bore until a more permenant solution could be found, thus suggesting they did not reguard the Choedan Kal to be capable to 'putting an end to everything'. As such, the sealing already did what the Choedan Kal had been intended to do anyway.

 

Misled by Lanfear? Lanfear herself thinks they could challenge the Dark One or the Creator with those. She might be misled herself, but it wasn't intentional. Anyway, I didn't say they'd go and destroy the Dark One. I said they'd go and destroy Shayol Ghul, destroying the Trolloc hives, the Myrddraal-blade creation centers and everything else that is there that aids the Shadow.

 

As for why not be done with shadowspawn--again, because that was impossible. The Shadowspawn like everyone else had been scattered by that stage. They would be fighting small bands only--it would be like using a nuclear warhead to kill an ant. Impractical, and ultimately pointless. And given the amount of power used likely to draw every 'out-for-themselves' channeler in the area. Sooner or later one would pull off a pot shot and then randoms would control the most powerful weapon in the world.

 

As I already said - all they needed was travel from spot to spot in the Blight and nuke it. The end of all Shadowspawn currently not outside the Blight. And they could always bring together other Aes Sedai to protect them, or do so for each other - after all, only one is needed to use the access key. Sort of like a bomber - you escort it with fighters, bring it to the spot, drop the nuke. Considering the speed of travelling over small distances, they hardly needed to worry about channelers coming to get them. If they did, after all. Let's not forget that noone, noone would consider daring going to that thing in the current age, noone came to Shadar Logoth except the bunch of coerced Forsaken, why, because if the user was actively using the Choedan Kal for some purpose that didn't require their full attention like the Cleansing, and they redirected even a trickle of what they held at them, they'd be burnt away instantly, turned to dust, vaporized. Only the male madmen would go there, but males can't sense saidin the same way as women - they'd probably feel the goosebumps, but couldn't identify the location, and if they went into the Blight, there'd be noone of any consequence to see their nuking around anyway.

 

Don't get me wrong though, i do think they could have been used, and that it might have made some small difference--not a great one, but it could have shifted a small amount of things. I reckon a prophecy was involved.

 

Plausible, but never hinted at. For two people who could essentially cripple the Shadow for a very long time, they have put a lot of weight in a prophecy. And alright, there is a prophecy dictating that the access keys go to the Aiel. The Aes Sedai decide that, beyond all doubt, they have interpreted the prophecy correctly, and do send the things with them. Then why, why just leave them unprotected like that? Why not simply go with them, ensuring their safety (after all, they'd be able to use the Choedan Kal as they wished if they were in overwhelming danger), until they went somewhere safe? Unless the Prophecy also said the Aiel had to go alone?

 

That sounds like a hell of a convenient prophecy.

 

Well, again, they'd already found a way, the problem being that there was nowhere to put the taint. The one attempt they made killed a hundred Aes Sedai in the doing. Employing the Choedan Kal would have destroyed the world.

 

That was obviously a flawed method. Who says there can't be another? And anyway, trying to cleanse the taint was only one of the things they could do.

 

The shadowspawn didn't gather in the Blighted Lands until near the end of the Breaking, prior to that they were spread out accross the Shadow controlled territories, and they'd been further broken apart by Latra Posae Decume in the forty years prior to the destruction of Paaren Disen. There was no 'core'.

 

Huh? I thought the Blight became the home of Shadowspawn when the Forsaken were still experimenting with them, that is, before the sealing occured. They had to have gathered somewhere by that point, and if you ask me, they had already settled in by the time the Breaking occured. On the other hand, I'm mostly speculating based on what is given to us - if you have a solid source, then you're obviously correct here and the argument is void.

 

Just the Aiel... but which thought was it you were confused about--if its the Choedan Kal, yeah, thats definately just guesswork on my part. If its about the fake mission of sending the Aiel away by getting them to guard the ter'angreal, RJ has commented on that directly a couple of times in addition to the the implications of Solinda's little speech about the Aiel singing to Mondaren.

 

No, I'm aware that the ter'angreal were just a way to get the Aiel out of the fray, which makes it difficult to believe that that was really a plot to get the access keys out of the fray. Certainly possible though, and clever if it was that. But if they wanted to protect the access keys, or even just the Aiel for that matter, why not go with them for protection?

 

I wasn't speaking of being locked into weaves, i was speaking of channelers sensing the use, and wanting that power for themselves in a time when everyone was out for themselves. The Choedan Kal won't save the channeler if they are struck by a shocklance before they are aware... or even an arrow.

 

There are ways to shield from such things though. Go to an open place, where everything is visible for a large distance. Weave and tie a barrier around them like Rand's on the Cairhien docks or the Asha'man's in Dumai's Wells, before drawing on the Choedan Kal, and then doing what they needed to do (the barrier may or may not stop the use of the Power from within, depending on how it is constructed, but even if it does that still wouldn't stop those inside from channeling Earth flows to tear what they wanted destroyed apart, or thunderstorms from above for that matter.

 

I believe I've addressed what would happen if channelers sensed the use of the Choedan Kal adequately above. Sane females would stay away, and insane males wouldn't feel anything if they were using only the female one.

 

Well again if they end up dead, the Choedan Kal end up in random hands. And there was a very high possibility of death at that stage.

 

The possibility of two sole Aes Sedai wielding the strongest sa'angreal dying and their possessions stolen is very, very small compared to the possibility of a large group of peace-loving people who wouldn't even lift a hand to defend themselves and obviously carrying something valuable dying. It's a matter of possibilities.

 

Phew.

 

EDIT: I'm fairly confident that, by this point, we've completely killed the argument for everyone else. I just can't resist a good textwall war.

[Swigaro]

In reading this thread, a thought occurred to me.  How did the Access Keys end up in Ruhidian in the first place?  If memory serves, the reason they were never tested, or put to use in the first place is that the research facility where they were being created was lost to the shadow.  That was why LTT was forced to lead the strike in the first place.  The Aes Sedai didn't have the keys.  Do we know the specific time line between the death of LTT and the scene Rand witnesses in the Rhuidian flashback?  Did they have a chance to get them back, or did the Aiel simply find the Keys in their wandering?  Was the lost territory recovered and the keys rediscovered, yet not recognized?  It is conceivably possible that they simply didn't have them to use.  The last word on them was that they were lost.  From there nothing until a broken Key shows up in Tanchico and a full set shows up in Ruhidian. 

[Luckers]

That comment was before he learnt about Callandor's weakness. Afterwards, no fear is expressed towards experiencing the same effect with the Choedan Kal. Why? Because up to that point, he believed that the taint magnification was an after-effect of the overflow of the Power, and with the CK, it'd be much worse. Which wasn't the case, as he found out. And again... he didn't fear the Forsaken because he did intend to bring assistance, as I explain further below

 

Agreed, but remember that your response was to my comment that the idea that Rand had been planning to use the Choedan Kal since book six was wrong because of all those issues you just commented--i was somewhat confused as to what you were suggesting.

 

Even so i don't think i buy your idea--there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that he intended to bring in others, and indeed why did he gather Nynaeve early if he intended to bring others in, and was only waiting to kill the asha'men. She was not involved in killing the Asha'men any more than they.

 

No, he'd gathered his force, intended to remove what obstacles he could, and then act--the only reason others were there was because of cadsuane.

 

Then why not put it behind a warded wall like he did with the access keys? Why bother gathering it with him, bother so much that he actually debated bringing it into the city against burying it in the ground, of all things? Clearly he intended something with it.And also, he didn't bring it to the Royal Palace in Caemlyn - someone would've recognized it, or at least see something unusual, there, covered in cloth or not. So bringing it in for safekeeping was not the reason - because if it was, where was it all the time until he went to Far Madding? Probably kept somewhere safe, where it could have remained indefinately until it was needed. Why did he need it there, where it could be retrieved right before he went to the Cleansing? Did he intend to use them both? I doubt it. He intended it for someone else. Cadsuane and her party arriving made these plans easier. Also, it sort of explains, somewhat, his relative apathy at learning they were there, but his agitation over finding out Narishma, Hopwil and Flinn had been bonded.

 

Your point there is counter-intuitive... you state that he debated bringing it into the city (where it would have been useless) as a point in favour of his intention to use it, and a point against the idea that he brought it with him because he worried about leaving it behind... that makes no sense at all.

 

But alright, I'll concede that he didn't bring it just for safekeeping--but i find your logic problematic. You say he left it near Far Madding so that he could access it swiftly, yet state that he intended to gather others before proceeding to use it... why did he take it to Far Madding at all, or even take it from its original hiding place to begin with if he had needed to return to Cairhein to gather people to use it anyway?

 

I mean, you state that he left it there so he could retrieve it right before he went to the cleansing, but would he not by your logic have had to travel around for a bit gathering forces anyway. By your own comments its implied he intended to move directly from Far Madding to cleansing the Source--and i agree with that, else he would not have gathered Nynaeve before heading to Far Madding--yet then you say he'd be running about gathering asha'men--but why not gather Callandor and Nynaeve then?

 

A more probable answer occurs to me. Perhaps he was concerned that even the Choedan Kal might not be enough. After all the Taint covered all of saidin, he had to have considered the possibility.

 

I do not, however, think he had any plans to gather others before moving to cleanse saidin.

 

Yeah. I wasn't the one who said he was planning to use the Choedan Kal since Book 6. Another person did, and he was wrong, because it's only after Cadsuane explains about Callandor in book 8 that he thinks "He had hoped it would be enough for another purpose, but now..." or something to that extent, and reasons out that the use of the Choedan Kal is neccessary.

 

Yeah, im sorry, i was confused by your response to my comment which seemed completely irrelevant given what that comment was saying, and just assumed that it was a continuation upon what that poster had said.

 

That comment was more or less saying exactly what you just said there.

 

Misled by Lanfear? Lanfear herself thinks they could challenge the Dark One or the Creator with those. She might be misled herself, but it wasn't intentional. Anyway, I didn't say they'd go and destroy the Dark One. I said they'd go and destroy Shayol Ghul, destroying the Trolloc hives, the Myrddraal-blade creation centers and everything else that is there that aids the Shadow.

 

No, Lanfear tells Rand they can, and thinks to herself she'd been willing to challange the Creator with him. But I rather doubt that she, with her history as a One Power researcher, would have actually have believed that.

 

But if she did she herself was wrong.

 

And forgive me if i misread you, but i assumed by saying that it could be used to go to shayol ghoul to 'put an end to things' that you were speaking of the Dark One.

 

From there, destroying Shayol Ghoul would be highly problematic. Reality is not real around there, and attempting to destroy it could have had catastrophic effects--for one it could have blown the bore wide open again.

 

And the Trollocs have no hives--they didn't even have the tribes and female farms they have now. They were not centred in the Blight, but positioned throughout the world as a part of the war, and had since been scattered by Latra.

 

As I already said - all they needed was travel from spot to spot in the Blight and nuke it. The end of all Shadowspawn currently not outside the Blight. And they could always bring together other Aes Sedai to protect them, or do so for each other - after all, only one is needed to use the access key. Sort of like a bomber - you escort it with fighters, bring it to the spot, drop the nuke. Considering the speed of travelling over small distances, they hardly needed to worry about channelers coming to get them. If they did, after all. Let's not forget that noone, noone would consider daring going to that thing in the current age, noone came to Shadar Logoth except the bunch of coerced Forsaken, why, because if the user was actively using the Choedan Kal for some purpose that didn't require their full attention like the Cleansing, and they redirected even a trickle of what they held at them, they'd be burnt away instantly, turned to dust, vaporized. Only the male madmen would go there, but males can't sense saidin the same way as women - they'd probably feel the goosebumps, but couldn't identify the location, and if they went into the Blight, there'd be noone of any consequence to see their nuking around anyway.

 

Well, again, as i said, that would have achieved next to nothing. Shadowspawn were not housed in the blight during those days, they were spread accross the planet along the frontiers of the war. And despite what you say it is possible to kill a channeler no matter how strong--consider Osen'gar in the Cleansing, had it not been for Elza's sharp eye he would have succeeded in killing Rand... a matter of chance, easily played out differently.

 

Plausible, but never hinted at. For two people who could essentially cripple the Shadow for a very long time, they have put a lot of weight in a prophecy. And alright, there is a prophecy dictating that the access keys go to the Aiel. The Aes Sedai decide that, beyond all doubt, they have interpreted the prophecy correctly, and do send the things with them. Then why, why just leave them unprotected like that? Why not simply go with them, ensuring their safety (after all, they'd be able to use the Choedan Kal as they wished if they were in overwhelming danger), until they went somewhere safe? Unless the Prophecy also said the Aiel had to go alone?

 

That sounds like a hell of a convenient prophecy

 

Entirely possible, but in addition they had other tasks to attend to, and limited resources. They had to create the Eye of the World, and the Stone of Tear, and who knows how many other tasks we weren't aware. You seem to reguard this as somehow outlandish--the Horn of Valere was near as powerful a weapon, and could have been employed just the same, but they locked it away on a foretelling. For that matter callandor employed in a circle is exactly the same again.

 

Desandre's prophecies were amazingly specific, leading to the creating of the Eye of the World, the Stone, the inclusion of the Dragon banner as well as the Horn, Someshta's involvement....

 

Frankly no, i don't see that as especially convenient.

 

That was obviously a flawed method. Who says there can't be another? And anyway, trying to cleanse the taint was only one of the things they could do.

 

It's the method Rand employed, and besides they had other things to occupy them, things they knew they could achieve and which they knew was massively important for the fate of the world.

 

They were acting on the prescripts of prophecy every step of the way.

 

Huh? I thought the Blight became the home of Shadowspawn when the Forsaken were still experimenting with them, that is, before the sealing occured. They had to have gathered somewhere by that point, and if you ask me, they had already settled in by the time the Breaking occured. On the other hand, I'm mostly speculating based on what is given to us - if you have a solid source, then you're obviously correct here and the argument is void.

 

The guide states that the shadowspawn appeared all over the world, and given that they cannot travel that means they were not based in any particular place--effectively each district had its own group of shadowspawn which lived in that district.

 

Aside from which, keep in mind that the Blighted Lands were an island in those days, they did not spread until the breaking itself.

 

No, I'm aware that the ter'angreal were just a way to get the Aiel out of the fray, which makes it difficult to believe that that was really a plot to get the access keys out of the fray. Certainly possible though, and clever if it was that. But if they wanted to protect the access keys, or even just the Aiel for that matter, why not go with them for protection?

 

Becuase they had other things to do--and we know they needed every Aes Sedai they had to get done what needed to be done.

 

Also, presumably in that scenario the prophecy would have spoken of the Aiel leaving... and thus probably clarified that they had to be sent away in some manner.

 

 

 

There are ways to shield from such things though. Go to an open place, where everything is visible for a large distance. Weave and tie a barrier around them like Rand's on the Cairhien docks or the Asha'man's in Dumai's Wells, before drawing on the Choedan Kal, and then doing what they needed to do (the barrier may or may not stop the use of the Power from within, depending on how it is constructed, but even if it does that still wouldn't stop those inside from channeling Earth flows to tear what they wanted destroyed apart, or thunderstorms from above for that matter.

 

No woven barrier can stop balefire.

 

I believe I've addressed what would happen if channelers sensed the use of the Choedan Kal adequately above. Sane females would stay away, and insane males wouldn't feel anything if they were using only the female one.

 

I don't really. The Breaking was hardly a time for sanity. People were desperate and scared, and there are ways to approach without accrueing the wrath of the person wielding the Choedan Kal.

 

The possibility of two sole Aes Sedai wielding the strongest sa'angreal dying and their possessions stolen is very, very small compared to the possibility of a large group of peace-loving people who wouldn't even lift a hand to defend themselves and obviously carrying something valuable dying. It's a matter of possibilities.

 

I disagree--and after all the one time we saw them used a man who was by description lousy at sneaking came damn close to killing the two sole channelers wielding them.

 

And no, amongst they Aiel they were obscure, used they were a beacon.

 

 

[triadruid]

In reading this thread, a thought occurred to me.  How did the Access Keys end up in Ruhidian in the first place?  If memory serves, the reason they were never tested, or put to use in the first place is that the research facility where they were being created was lost to the shadow.  That was why LTT was forced to lead the strike in the first place.  The Aes Sedai didn't have the keys.  Do we know the specific time line between the death of LTT and the scene Rand witnesses in the Rhuidian flashback?  Did they have a chance to get them back, or did the Aiel simply find the Keys in their wandering?  Was the lost territory recovered and the keys rediscovered, yet not recognized?  It is conceivably possible that they simply didn't have them to use.  The last word on them was that they were lost.  From there nothing until a broken Key shows up in Tanchico and a full set shows up in Ruhidian. 

This confused me as well. But weren't there (at least) two sets of access keys? Maybe they were taken there later, but it's all off-camera...

 

[Swigaro]

We have seen three keys, thus far.  One Female, broken found in Tanchico and one full set, male and female, fully functional, found in Rhuidian.  From The Strike on Shayol Ghul, I assumed that there were multiple sets of keys.  On another note, both female keys are now broken.  Is there some sort of flaw in the female CK, or is there a flaw in the keys? 

[Hybrid]

We have seen three keys, thus far.  One Female, broken found in Tanchico and one full set, male and female, fully functional, found in Rhuidian.  From The Strike on Shayol Ghul, I assumed that there were multiple sets of keys.  On another note, both female keys are now broken.  Is there some sort of flaw in the female CK, or is there a flaw in the keys? 

 

We have no knowledge about the breaking of the first female access key.  The other one likely resulted from its use in the Cleansing.  A massive amount of saidar was used.  In addition, Rand was the one in control of the weaves.  Perhaps some backlash resulted.

[Arath Faringal]

I thought the female access key at the cleansing was destroyed because the sa'angreal itself was destroyed.  That seems a more likely source of backlash to me.

[Hybrid]

I thought the female access key at the cleansing was destroyed because the sa'angreal itself was destroyed.  That seems a more likely source of backlash to me.

 

Actually, I think you're right.  I forgot about that.  :P

[Swigaro]

 

I thought the female access key at the cleansing was destroyed because the sa'angreal itself was destroyed.  That seems a more likely source of backlash to me.

 

Indeed, both Sa'Angrael and Key were destroyed.  I wouldn't agree, however that the use Rand put them to was so stressful to destroy the key.  Though Sa'Angrael, the CK were designed for one specific purpose, to erect a shield around Shayol Guhl in order to give the forces of Light time to come up with a more permanent solution.  As we have seen in numerous POV's, in order to be as effective as possible, shields must be maintained.  The cleansing required massive amounts of channeling that lasted less than a day.  The shielding of Shayol Guhl would have needed massive amounts of channeling constantly for weeks, if not months.  If the female CK couldn't hold up for one day's worth of channeling, it never would have managed to withstand the shielding of SG.  Latara's plan would have doomed the forces of light. 

 

We have no knowledge about the breaking of the first female access key.  The other one likely resulted from its use in the Cleansing.  A massive amount of saidar was used.  In addition, Rand was the one in control of the weaves.  Perhaps some backlash resulted.

 

True, we have no direct evidence as to why the first Key was destroyed, however IMO, as the first documented use of the female CK that even approached the level of its intended use destroyed both Key and CK, I don't think it is too much of a leap to suggest that there was some kind of flaw in the creation, and that the Tanchico key was destroyed because someone tried to use it.  I realize that is an assumption, but seeing how the CK performed in practice, I think it is a logical one.  Granted, it could have simply fallen off a shelf when someone dusted too vigorously, but, somehow, I find that less compelling.