Callandor users

[Nateku]

So in PoD, Cadsuane told Rand that Callandor must be wielded by two women and a man linked with one of the women leading the flows, though the Light alone knows how she found that out. I was was just speculating to myself who would be wielding Callandor with Rand at the last battle. I've thought of two combinations.

 

1. Rand, Cadsuane, and Moiraine - If Moiraine is coming back, it would make sense for Rand's two advisers to aid him with Callandor. And it'd be pretty sweet. xD

 

2. Rand, Nynaeve, and Alivia - Alivia because of Min's foretelling and Nynaeve because Rand has linked with her before, and trusts her.

 

Any thoughts?

[Jambo]

I don't think he'd would be the one using the callandor, if anything he'd use that sa'angreal he has (the uber powerful one, i forgot what it's called....). I think he would get one of his trusted Asha'man to wield Callander like he did when he was cleansing sadin.

[stapes2007]

I don't think he'd would be the one using the callandor, if anything he'd use that sa'angreal he has (the uber powerful one, i forgot what it's called....). I think he would get one of his trusted Asha'man to wield Callander like he did when he was cleansing sadin.

 

The Choedan Kal

[Nateku]

Hmm, there is the choeden kal I suppose, but which women do you think will link for usage of callandor? That was my main question I think. xD

[Tigara]

If Rand were to use it, Elayne and Aviendha would demand to be the the linkers, I think. If it were an Asha'man (say Logain or Narishma), it would likely be one of the ones that Rand made sure are tied to him, like Alanna or someone.

[Vassili]

Are the two women even necessary now that saidin is cleansed? The taint was the reason it needed two women I think.

[Nateku]

No, it needs two women because callandor doesn't create a buffer to safely allow someone to draw more of the power. I guess the link provides that buffer.

[Luckers]

Yes, it wont be inducing wildness of the mind anymore, but any slight misuse and it could burn the man out or kill him.

 

Given that it seems Narishma will probably be using Callandor I'd say that it will probably be Merise and whichever other woman is nearby.

 

Either was i dont think there is much significance in which woman uses it.

[Mr Ares]

The problem with callandor is two-fold. The first is that it magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. The taint is gone, this is no longer a problem. The second is that it is possible to overdose on the OP and burn onesself out while using it, something normally impossible with angreal and sa'angreal. Links also provide a buffer, preventing those in them from being burnt out. It is possible to use callandor without a link, but the user runs the risk of burning himself out. Back when Cadsuane said what she said, the taint was an issue. If the man using callandor was in a link, he would be safe from overdrawing, but not from the wildness of the mind. I think it is obvious why you don't want someone suffering from wildness of the mind to have a sa'angreal that powerful, so you would want the link to be lead by a woman - that way, the man can be as nuts as he wants, but the woman weaving the flows will still be as rational as ever. However (this is the imprtant bit), the rationale for needing a woman to lead the circle is gone. Now any circle, lead by man or woman, would be reasonable. Which is a long way of saying, there need be only one woman, in a circle controlled by a man, at TG. Step forward Narishma and Merise. No need for any other woman nearby, no need for any third party, unless Merise is unwilling to surrender control to a man.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Maybe Nynaeve, Alivia and Damer Flynn will link using Callandor to resurrect Rand. Flynn is strong enough, he is stronger than Narishma. I doubt Rand will use Callandor in the Last Battle because of its unreliableness, I really cant see him having a woman in control when he has his do with the Dark One

[Luckers]

Well there's a couple of problems with resurection. For one after a few minutes delta waves in the brain begin to degrade--they could heal the body with Nynaeve's new method (where strength come from the healer), and then revive him, starting his heart once more, but if they take too long all that comes back will be a vegetable. Not a physical problem, and not something healable.

 

That wouldn't require such power either, just a normal healing and resusitation. Nynaeve could do it now if she paused to think about it--well, perhaps.

 

The other question is that of the soul. How long does it linger past death? We know even the Dark One has problems if too much time passes after the death before he can recover it, but Nynaeve wouldn't even have that window... the second the soul left the body, its done. All over. She could heal the body but it'd be like that Ogier from tGH.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Well, Rands soul would linger in death for considerably less time than say, Osan'gars, and that about delta waves in the brain can't really be taken into consideration here as this is fantasy and that means the writer can do pretty much whatever he wants as long as he has a good enough explanation. Scientific rules simply do not hold anywhere near as much weight in fantasy as they dp in other genres because its fantasy, and if things like brainwaves and such like are taken into account then the whole series would be different altogether. Seeing as reincarnation is possible there is no reason that resurrection isnt, the only thing preventing it that I can see would be things like the heart being removed from the body, but again even then this is fantasy and Im sure if RJ put a resurrection in AMoL he would have pulled it off

[Luckers]

Well, Rands soul would linger in death for considerably less time than say, Osan'gars

 

Since that agrees with my point about resurrection not happening im not sure why i should argue, but why would his soul linger for less time than Osan'gars?

 

that about delta waves in the brain can't really be taken into consideration here as this is fantasy and that means the writer can do pretty much whatever he wants as long as he has a good enough explanation. Scientific rules simply do not hold anywhere near as much weight in fantasy as they dp in other genres because its fantasy, and if things like brainwaves and such like are taken into account then the whole series would be different altogether.

 

Why would you say that? Everything about the wheel is based in scientific paradigms--his background in physics saw to that. As RJ himself would say 'if you are asking someone to believe in something that isn't real you have to make everything else as real as possible'. The Power doesn't exist, thats the thing we're being asked to believe in, but he's bound that Power by rules of the real world. The fantasy element always bends to physics and science, it is only in areas were science doesn't cover that he has woven his tale.

 

So yes, i see no basis for your comment that if brainwaves were taken into account the series would be different.

 

Seeing as reincarnation is possible there is no reason that resurrection isnt

 

Well, yes, there is. Scientifically nothing precludes the possibility of reincarnation. Resurection of the type you describe however is impossible. They are different states, and with different functions.

 

the only thing preventing it that I can see would be things like the heart being removed from the body, but again even then this is fantasy and Im sure if RJ put a resurrection in AMoL he would have pulled it off

 

Well again, the soul issue is a massive problem--from a purely fantastical prespective. The issue with brainwaves is also an issue which RJ would have been aware of and wouldn't have crossed.

[Guest Dreadlord]

So what you're saying is that while Rand dying, being stone cold dead for a few hours-a day, tops-breaks this brainwave boundary you mention, yet a man dying, being dead for however long between Aginor dies and Osan'gar is alive doesnt? When it is his brain itself that carries all his knowledge, memories and such like, how do the memories get from the old, dead body to the new one? Memories arent linked to the soul, they are linked to the brain, which means no modern day rules are being followed in the reincarnation part of the story. This isnt an issue, but its the way it is.

 

QUOTE

Since that agrees with my point about resurrection not happening im not sure why i should argue, but why would his soul linger for less time than Osan'gars?

UNQUOTE

 

How does it agree with your point, when I am saying Rand would definitely be resurrected in less time than it took Osan'gar to be reincarnated? Nynaeve and co wouldnt wait about for a few months or whatever to resurrect Rand, they would do it straight away.

[Luckers]

So what you're saying is that while Rand dying, being stone cold dead for a few hours-a day, tops-breaks this brainwave boundary you mention, yet a man dying, being dead for however long between Aginor dies and Osan'gar is alive doesnt? When it is his brain itself that carries all his knowledge, memories and such like, how do the memories get from the old, dead body to the new one? Memories arent linked to the soul, they are linked to the brain, which means no modern day rules are being followed in the reincarnation part of the story. This isnt an issue, but its the way it is.

 

An interesting thought. Firstly, no, being dead as along as Aginor was does break that barrier, being dead more than a few minutes does, and a healer would be incapable of reparing that damage, just as incapable as she would be in pulling the soul back. And we do know that RJ includes the effects of the electro-chemical processes of the brain in his work, as Graendal has commented on it.

 

Clearly however the Dark One is capable of copying that electro-chemical information. Some element of it must remain within the nature of the soul--thats a good catch mate, it explains why LTT is able to manifest. Clearly it is not perfect, each recylced person has shown a degree of differentiation from their original body, likely the effect of the different chemical state of their new bodies brain.

 

Still doesn't help the chances of resurection though. Nynaeve is hardly able to reproduce such a thing.

 

How does it agree with your point, when I am saying Rand would definitely be resurrected in less time than it took Osan'gar to be reincarnated? Nynaeve and co wouldnt wait about for a few months or whatever to resurrect Rand, they would do it straight away.

 

Ah, I see... you said it would linger for less time than Osan'gars... which I took to mean that you were saying Rand's soul would leave the body faster than Osan'gar's.

 

As for your actual point, Osan'gar's soul was immediately secured upon his death by the Dark One. We know that if the soul is not immediately secured and held by the Dark One he cannot recycled people. He did not 'linger in death' he was held by the Dark One till a body could be found.

 

Were Rand to die his soul would leave the body, and no amount of healing would call it back. Once the soul has left the body not even the Dark One can call it back.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Good points, but I still think RJ lined it up for a resurrection, or at least an active event that makes Rand live again. Whether or not it is precisely a resurrection is the main question, but judging from the fact that Alivia will help Rand die, I am thinking this isnt just "Rand needs to sacrifice himself and Alivia helps him," but more that Rand must sacrifice his life and die in a specific way for the others-Alivia, Nynaeve, Flynn etc-to actively bring him back. I can think of ways that it could work myself, and RJ has a condsiderable ammount more skill than me.

[Asmo]

Keeping weaves can maintain everything they cover under the state it was when the Keeping was used, so Rand's body can be maintained and ressurected later, if time is the issue.

 

To address the original topic, Callandor will probably be used by Narishma in the Last Battle where Rand uses the Choedan Kal for some other purpose, and in the very end Rand might use Callandor for something else, because after all, it's a sword and fantasy epics must revolve around swords.

[Luckers]

Perhaps... we arn't sure that a keeping could be that effective--though we do know that weaves are capable of completely suspending a living being in stasis, and allowing them to be restored, so it seems possible.

 

Still the keeping would have to be employed within moments of death.