TDR Reread Question

[Hybrid]

I've been rereading all the books while waiting for AMOL.  While reading TDR, I came upon the chapter where Moiraine, Lan, and Perrin enter Illian.  My question is, how did Moiraine know it was Sammael in Illian?  Recognizing the presence of a Forsaken (or at least a powerful channeler) was one thing, but how did she know specifically that it was Sammael?  It's not as if she walked into the palace and asked him.  And in KOD, we saw that Cadsuane, one of the most knowledgable Aes Sedai, cannot recognize Semirhage on sight.  I doubt Moiraine knew Sammael by sight, and even if she did, how could she get within sight of him without him noticing her?  (I hope I'm not posting something that was already discussed, but I searched for "sammael illian moiraine dragon reborn" and couldn't find anything.)

[Fryn]

Morraine figured it out from listening to the talk of what the city folk were all dreaming. He wasn't shielding his dreams so all of Illian were having similar dreams, so it was easy to figure out which forsaken it was. Morraine is also one of the very few that realised the forsaken were free. Morraine has spent her life trying to find and then guide the dragon reborn so knows more about forsaken and other relevant info that other sisters didn't bother studying.

 

When they met semi they just had initial interactions to go on.

[CUBAREY]

I've been rereading all the books while waiting for AMOL.  While reading TDR, I came upon the chapter where Moiraine, Lan, and Perrin enter Illian.  My question is, how did Moiraine know it was Sammael in Illian?  Recognizing the presence of a Forsaken (or at least a powerful channeler) was one thing, but how did she know specifically that it was Sammael?  It's not as if she walked into the palace and asked him

 

When they first entered the city she only knew that there was    a Chosen in the City. Its only afterward when she returns from investigating the city by herself (she left Lan at the Inn) that she says its Sammael.                                       

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

And in KOD, we saw that Cadsuane, one of the most knowledgable Aes Sedai, cannot recognize Semirhage on sight

UNQUOTE

 

Why would she? Cadsuane had never seen Semirhage before the KoD scene, and Rand is the only person alive who knows what all the Forsaken look like (not including the Forsaken themselves). Moiraine would only have known what Sammael looked like if she had seen him, whether in a dream or in the real world

[Hybrid]

Why would she? Cadsuane had never seen Semirhage before the KoD scene, and Rand is the only person alive who knows what all the Forsaken look like (not including the Forsaken themselves). Moiraine would only have known what Sammael looked like if she had seen him, whether in a dream or in the real world

 

I guess that's true.  Sammael is the one Forsaken that had the most distinguishing feature (the scar).  I suppose Sammael was arrogant enough to ignore any Aes Sedai he saw as "untrained children" in any case.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Id ignore them as well if I was him, since none of them know his face. Even with the scar, none of the Aes Sedai would pin him down due to that, as there are many people with scars on their faces. Do modern Aes Sedai know about Sammaels scar? We got all that info from Rand having Lews Therins memories IIRC, so Moiraine probably didnt know about Sammaels scar unless I have forgotten something.

 

PS. Slightly off topic, but Iv started another reread myself. On the Great Hunt at the moment. Its surprising how many people are at the Darkfriend meeting who can potentially be identified on a reread. There is a Shieneran there, but I dont think it was Ingtar; I reckon it was Masema

[Hybrid]

Id ignore them as well if I was him, since none of them know his face. Even with the scar, none of the Aes Sedai would pin him down due to that, as there are many people with scars on their faces. Do modern Aes Sedai know about Sammaels scar? We got all that info from Rand having Lews Therins memories IIRC, so Moiraine probably didnt know about Sammaels scar unless I have forgotten something.

Yeah, that was why I was puzzled as to why Moiraine specifically identified Sammael as the Forsaken in Illian.  It's obvious that one of them was there, but I still find it hard to believe she was able to identify him by name.

PS. Slightly off topic, but Iv started another reread myself. On the Great Hunt at the moment. Its surprising how many people are at the Darkfriend meeting who can potentially be identified on a reread. There is a Shieneran there, but I dont think it was Ingtar; I reckon it was Masema

 

Personally, I thought the personality matched Ingtar.  The Shienaran is described so that he seems a man who itches for action - his fingers keep twitching for his sword, and he seems eager for the order to kill the ta'veren.  The only Shienaran described this way is Ingtar.  Though, to be fair, Ingtar is the only Shienaran, really, who has a definite personality by TGH.  I mean, Uno curses and Masema hates Rand, but that's about it.

 

[42Bonzo88]

    Moiraine sometimes to me is as much a brown sister as a blue when it comes to a quest. I haven't seen any other sister (except Brown) to have searched for knowledge more than she. Of course, for her to protect the Dragon, she would need knowledge of the forsaken because she knows that if Rand is to win at TG, he would be facing the forsaken to do it. In TDR, before she faces Be'lal, she asks Loial to give her any information that he knows of him.

 

    When it comes to preparedness, Moiraine is by far IMO the best sister.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Personally, I thought the personality matched Ingtar.  The Shienaran is described so that he seems a man who itches for action - his fingers keep twitching for his sword, and he seems eager for the order to kill the ta'veren.  The only Shienaran described this way is Ingtar.  Though, to be fair, Ingtar is the only Shienaran, really, who has a definite personality by TGH.  I mean, Uno curses and Masema hates Rand, but that's about it.

UNQUOTE

 

Thats just it though-the Shieneran seems eager to kill the Dragon. Yet in the same book, Ingtar tells Rand he is a Darkfriend. Why do that, if he is eager to kill Rand? Its not as if it is Ta'veren, because Rand didnt really need to know Ingtar was a Darkfriend. Ingtar didnt seem very Darkfriendish at all although there are several clues. Whatever happens I cant see Ingtar being eager to kill Rand.

 

Masema on the other hand... There is a hell of a lot that can be said about Masema that would hint at him being a Darkfriend. Why does he hate Rand? Well, if Im right, then he was shown Rands face in the Darkfriend meeting, where "Baalzamon" said he wanted to use Rand and the others. Jealousy or a number of things could make Masema hate Rand, even before he began worshipping him. And Masemas actions later on do absolutely nothing to show where Masemas loyalties are. Forcing people to give up their jewelry and possessions because they divert thoughts from what the Dragon would want, or whatever it is? Ha! Darkfriend creating more fear of the Dragon more like, if you ask me.

 

Masema is not all that he seems. I am sure of it. Darkfriend, insane Ta'veren, I dont know what, but the madman thing isnt cutting it for me. Somethings going on there I reckon

[Ahaz Flagg]

Dreadlord,  Ingtar was the one at the meeting, in the beginning of TGH after the prolouge, Ingtar is just coming back from a Hunt.  This hunt was his meeting with ISHY,it was not Masema.  Masema hates Rand for what the Aeil did to him. 

 

What he is doing talking too Surroth is trying to figure out a way to get Rand to kneel to the crystal throne, Masema while crazy is not a DF, he simply beleieves that Rand must bend to the throne in order to win at the last battle.

[Majsju]

Dreadlord,  Ingtar was the one at the meeting, in the beginning of TGH after the prolouge, Ingtar is just coming back from a Hunt.  This hunt was his meeting with ISHY,it was not Masema.  Ingtar hates Rand for what the Aeil did to him. 

 

What he is doing talking too Surroth is trying to figure out a way to get Rand to kneel to the crystal throne, Masema while crazy is not a DF, he simply beleieves that Rand must bend to the throne in order to win at the last battle.

 

Say what now?

 

1. Masema is the one hating Rand for what the Aiel did to him. Ingtar shows no signs if hate, he is rather quite friendly towards Rand.

And there is the reason for Masemas madness, he was very hostile towards Rand, making no attempts at trying to hide his hatred. Then all of a sudden he discovers that Rand is the Dragon reborn, ie the saviour of mankind. No wonder he snapped.

 

2. Whatever dealings Masema has with the Seanchan, him accepting the flaw in the Seanchan version of the prophecies and trying to bring Rand to kneel to the Crystal Throne is not one of them.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Dreadlord,  Ingtar was the one at the meeting, in the beginning of TGH after the prolouge, Ingtar is just coming back from a Hunt.  This hunt was his meeting with ISHY,it was not Masema.  Ingtar hates Rand for what the Aeil did to him. 

 

What he is doing talking too Surroth is trying to figure out a way to get Rand to kneel to the crystal throne, Masema while crazy is not a DF, he simply beleieves that Rand must bend to the throne in order to win at the last battle.

 

Say what now?

 

 

 

 

 

1. Masema is the one hating Rand for what the Aiel did to him. Ingtar shows no signs if hate, he is rather quite friendly towards Rand.

And there is the reason for Masemas madness, he was very hostile towards Rand, making no attempts at trying to hide his hatred. Then all of a sudden he discovers that Rand is the Dragon reborn, ie the saviour of mankind. No wonder he snapped.

 

2. Whatever dealings Masema has with the Seanchan, him accepting the flaw in the Seanchan version of the prophecies and trying to bring Rand to kneel to the Crystal Throne is not one of them.

 

I disagree, while we have no pov to proove either us right or wrong, it is the only reason I can see Masema meeting with them, Surroth certianly knows who Rand is, she most certianly would love to have Rand back in Seandar.  If you can come up with a more logical reason as to why Surroth would have met, please let me know.

 

And yes i meant Masema hates him, typo there.  :)

 

[Hybrid]

Dreadlord,  Ingtar was the one at the meeting, in the beginning of TGH after the prolouge, Ingtar is just coming back from a Hunt.  This hunt was his meeting with ISHY,it was not Masema.  Ingtar hates Rand for what the Aeil did to him. 

 

What he is doing talking too Surroth is trying to figure out a way to get Rand to kneel to the crystal throne, Masema while crazy is not a DF, he simply beleieves that Rand must bend to the throne in order to win at the last battle.

 

I personally don't see Masema wanting Rand to bend down to anything.  Remember, he thinks Rand is the Light made flesh.  Was there any indication that Masema was actually negotiating with the Seanchan?  Suroth could've tried to contact him, but Masema could've said go to hell, or some such.

 

 

Edit: Fixed the nested quotes.

[Majsju]

I disagree, while we have no pov to proove either us right or wrong, it is the only reason I can see Masema meeting with them, Surroth certianly knows who Rand is, she most certianly would love to have Rand back in Seandar.  If you can come up with a more logical reason as to why Surroth would have met, please let me know.

 

You do know where Suroths true loyalties lie, right ;)

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Suroths a Darkfriend isnt she?

[Fryn]

Suroths a Darkfriend isnt she?

 

Not quite =p

[Mr Ares]

Suroth's a Darkfriend, isn't she?

Not quite =p

No, Dreadlord hit the nail on the head. She is indeed a Darkfriend.

[Fryn]

Suroth's a Darkfriend, isn't she?

Not quite =p

No, Dreadlord hit the nail on the head. She is indeed a Darkfriend.

 

Oops >< I was thinking of Anath

[Guest Dreadlord]

So, Suroth is a Darkfriend. Did Masema actually have negotiations with her? Its a while since I read that part, and Im still in the beginning quarter of the way through book 2. If so, then thats my mind made up about Masema.

 

Ten points to the person who guesses who the Tinker is at the Darkfriend meeting in the Great Hunt

[Hybrid]

Ten points to the person who guesses who the Tinker is at the Darkfriend meeting in the Great Hunt

 

NPC Tinker Male #15. ;D Beyond that, no idea.

Ten points also to the person who guesses who the Athan Miere was at the DF meeting in TGH.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Dammit I cant remember any Sea Folk characters!!!

[Hybrid]

Also, it was a male Athan Miere.

[DemandredFO]

I have Very circumstantial proof for this but could the Tinker be Rain.  I mean he is the head of a band of Tinkers that has run across Perrin twice and the first time Ishamael appeared and the second time Trollocs almost overran Perrin.

[Ahaz Flagg]

I disagree, while we have no pov to proove either us right or wrong, it is the only reason I can see Masema meeting with them, Surroth certianly knows who Rand is, she most certianly would love to have Rand back in Seandar.  If you can come up with a more logical reason as to why Surroth would have met, please let me know.

 

You do know where Suroths true loyalties lie, right ;)

 

 

 

Of course I know, that makes me beleive that she would want Rand to go to Seandar,I hope at some point we get a pov that sheads some light on why surroth met with Mesema,  The fact that the wise ones want him dead, and he was meeting surroth lead me to beleive that was some plan to cart him off to Seandar, of course I could be wrong, but I realy see no reason for the meeting, and the hate of the wise ones without that reason.

[Majsju]

So Masema with his army of peasants with pitchforks were supposed to capture the strongest channeler in the world, escape an unknown number of Aes Sedai, Asha'man and Wise Ones able to channel, cart him unnoticed from cairhien to the west coast, and finally have Rand shipped off to Seanchan? And all this without a single channeler for these little things like, uhm shielding Rand, for starters...?

Masema may be a raving lunatic, but even he would find a few flaws in that plan...