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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

A Tie Up of the Years Following the Aiel War


Luckers
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So a lot of fun stuff happened around then, including some mysteries. This is, as near as I can tell, the events of that time--it raises two interested questions.

 

So, Gitara foretells Rand's birth and dies. Tamra gathers searchers, the Black Ajah realise something is up and put her to the Question and uncover that the Dragon has been born--though they seemingly don't realise when. Jarna Milari, the then head of the Black Ajah, has Tamra and her searchers killed and begins a search and destroy mission--she had Black Sisters kill any male who show signs of channeling, which is to say signs of sudden luck. At the same time the Black incites the Red into gentling any man who can channel that they find (including Thom's nephew Owyn).

 

Sierin Vayu is raised from the Gray and Siuan leaves a note with her suspicions about the death of one of Tamra's searchers (Meilyn) after Chesmal Emry announces that she died in her sleep when Siuan knows she did not.

 

This is where things get blurry. We know that in the years following Ishamael learnt of Jarna Milari's actions and killed her, and put a stop to the search and destroy mission. We also know that Chesmal Emry incited the Red Ajah into killing Sierin in order to stop her from uncovering the Black Ajah. She probably did this as a direct result of what happened to Jarna--no Black would have been willing to kill an Amyrlin after Jarna was so spectacuraliy dispatched.

 

So, a Blue Amyrlin was raised who then put a stop to the Red's version of the search and destroy mission, and exciled the Red Sitters, and things eventually returned to normal. But two questions come in this blurry period. Specifically.

 

1. How did Chesmal learn of Sierin moving against the Black.

2. Who amongst the Red killed Sierin.

 

On Question 1... firstly it seems likely that Chesmal was the focus of Sierin's investigation. Her knowledge of the Black stems from the murder of Meilyn, which Chesmal announced. She is the link in, and likely the focus (and remember several years passed between Siuan's note and Sierin's murder, time in which to properly investigate).

 

This also makes it strange that Sierin's investigation was discovered at such a late stage. She managed to keep it secret till then, so one must assume that she has some passing skill with subterfuge. The answer i believe is Duhara. Duhara served as Sierin's Keeper, and was by all accounts a woman she trusted. She is also a woman who in the series we have been directly exposed to as an unpleasent and dark woman.

 

My guess is whilst she was gathering evidence Sierin exposed her thoughts to no one, but once she had proof she approached those she trusted--starting with Duhara--in order to take down the Black. Duhara revealed this to Chesmal, and since neither could move against Sierin out of fear of Ishamael they were forced to take other paths.

 

Which brings us to Question 2. Who amongst the Reds could be incited to kill Sierin--and why?

 

The obvious answer is in the fact that the Reds were illegally gentling men who could channel. If it were suggested that Sierin had uncovered that, as was planning to move on the Red Ajah--a reality that is actually possible given that Sierin was investigating the black's actions which involved the Red's... and her incredibly strict adherence to the law--then it would be possible that the Red would fear that enough to act.

 

And one Red in particular pops to mind--no, not Elaida. She was too newly Aes Sedai to have that sort of influence. No i'm speaking of Tsutama. One of the three Red's directly in charge of the search and destroy, and the one who has been remarked upon for her mental instability and her hard, merciless nature. She would make the perfect killer.

 

So those are the fill ins... Duhara revealed to Chesmal that Sierin was planning to take her out, and Chesmal incited Tsutama into killing Sierin.

 

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Nicely reasoned. =p

 

Jarna Milari, the then head of the Black Ajah, has Tamra and her searchers killed and begins a search and destroy mission--she had Black Sisters kill any male who show signs of channeling, which is to say signs of sudden luck. At the same time the Black incites the Red into gentling any man who can channel that they find (including Thom's nephew Owyn).

 

This is "the vileness" that several sisters have spoken of, yes? I believe Verin and one other (perhaps Cadusane?) mentioned it.

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    I agree and yet another red sister comes to mind. Again my memory is bad, but could Galina have killed Sierin? She is a Black Sister and also of the Red. Also, which books are you referring to where your theory comes from? Not that I'm doubting, just my memory is poor and I'd like to brush up on this.

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I always find Duhara too obvious a suspect.......and think she may be a red herring to throw us off Javindrha.

We're introduced to both her (Pevara wonders why she's dissappeared) and Tsutama in the same scene, and they both seem very good candidates for BA at first glance. Especially after Duhara turns up un-announced at Camelyn.

Javindrha seems nervy and unsure of herself, with the occasional secret smile, and I'd love it if one of the Sisters sent to the BT turns out to be Black herself. That would throw a spanner in the works.....

 

However, have to say that the reasoning is flawless Luckers, and i would be very suprised if it turns out other wise.

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Nicely reasoned Luckers and I like it.  I do have one question; wasn't there another amarlyn between Sieren and Suian?  Or am I thinking of something else because wasn't the reason Suian was raised so young that they had three or four short reigning amarlyns?

42Bonzo88, as Luckers said no black would kill another amarlyn without an order from Ishamael.  I don't think the Black wanted any more pain from Ishamael.

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``I do have one question; wasn't there another amarlyn between Sieren and Suian?''

 

According to the list of Amyrlins in the BWB from Bonwhin to the present, Sierin Vayu was succeeded by Marith Jaen of the Blue who was Amyrlin for four years, 984--988 NE. See the BWB, Ch. 24, ``The White Tower'', p. 216.

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This is "the vileness" that several sisters have spoken of, yes? I believe Verin and one other (perhaps Cadusane?) mentioned it.

 

The 'vileness' technically only covers the actions of the Red Ajah--only Siuan and Moiraine know of the Black's slaughter.

 

    I agree and yet another red sister comes to mind. Again my memory is bad, but could Galina have killed Sierin? She is a Black Sister and also of the Red. Also, which books are you referring to where your theory comes from? Not that I'm doubting, just my memory is poor and I'd like to brush up on this.

 

My problem with Galina is that Chesmal directly states that she incited the Red to kill Sierin--its possible she didn't know Galina was Black, but even so... and beyond which, Galina wouldn't have acted for the same reason Chesmal didn't--she didn't want to end up stuffed in a ter'angreal screaming herself to death like Jarna did.

 

As for where they come from, bits from different books. Chesmal's part is said by Asne in WH Ch. 10, the knowledge of the Black Ajah search and destroy is littered through New Spring, and Siuan's revelation of having left a note for Sierin in ch. 18. The Red's search and destroy are mentioned seperately by Elaida, Toveine and Moiraine in several different books--look up the theories on the vileness and you'll find more on that. Marith Jaen was the Blue Amyrlin who exiled the Red Sitters which is mentioned, i believe, by Elaida when she is thinking on summoning them back to the Tower. Jarna's death and its reason we know through Alviarin and a comment made by RJ. Did i miss anything?

 

The bits about Duhara and Tsutama are guesswork to fill in the two holes left by the data.

 

I always find Duhara too obvious a suspect.......and think she may be a red herring to throw us off Javindrha.

 

I never really thought about Javindhra--except the problem with that is that we have no connections linking Javindhra and Sierin, nor anything to suggest Javindhra is black aside from her small display of pleasure at the idea that Elaida was losing inspite of supposedly being Elaida's lapdog, and that could mean anything.

 

Sierin clearly trusted Duhara a great deal to raise her from another Ajah into position as Keeper. It would make sense for her to have brought her in when she was planning to move on the Black.

 

 

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Little o/t but I don't think Owen Merrlin was due to some big Red conspiricy.

 

I think it was a ploy that Elidia used to get Thom away from Morgase, because she wanted to be the only influence, she leeked the information to the reds, made some back room deals, then left clues for Thom to find.

 

He comes back and nows has a death warrant on his head, fleeing the city for his life.

 

Elaida has sole control of the Queen of Andor.

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I don't think Elaida could have predicted Morgase's reaction--which was because Thom left without saying anything. Or that Thom would flare up upon his return and say the things that made Morgase issue the death sentence--remember it was the fight that caused Morgase to issue the sentence, not Thom leaving.

 

Also, how did Elaida find out about Owyn? The kid lived in woop woop. He was gentled as a part of the Red search and destroy mission, just as Moiraine stated.

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I always find Duhara too obvious a suspect.......and think she may be a red herring to throw us off Javindrha.

We're introduced to both her (Pevara wonders why she's dissappeared) and Tsutama in the same scene, and they both seem very good candidates for BA at first glance. Especially after Duhara turns up un-announced at Camelyn.

Javindrha seems nervy and unsure of herself, with the occasional secret smile, and I'd love it if one of the Sisters sent to the BT turns out to be Black herself. That would throw a spanner in the works.....

 

However, have to say that the reasoning is flawless Luckers, and i would be very suprised if it turns out other wise.

None of those sent by Elida to destroy the Black Tower were black, we see in Alvairin's POV when she was speaking with Messaana that she would ensure that no blacks were sent.

 

Those sent to bond Asha'man may have been black.

 

Does it give the conditions of Marith's death?

Nothing. I'd presume it was natural causes though.

Didn't we have a POV of Alvairin or Galina where they thought about helping in pulling down three Amrylins?

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Two points-

 

1) Duhara being Black isn't necessary. All that is necessary is Sierin not to share her mind with anyone, and Chesmal to realize that the questions seem focused on her activities. Duhara herself is a good candidate for becoming paranoid, if shut out of Sierin's investigations. Dropping a hint to Duhara about Red activities might be sufficient- especially if the Reds specifically were using Duhara to keep Sierin in ignorance of their mission. No matter how much she favored them, she was an outsider, and the Reds are the most Tower-within-Tower of the Ajahs.

 

2) It is quite possible that Andor was the last location where the search and destroy missions were taking place, due to Elaida's influence. The ploy to remove Thom may have had less to do with his influence with Morgase than with his eyes-and-ears.

 

It even provides the lever- Morgase is very firm about Tower prerogatives and Tower business, all Elaida needed to do was tell Morgase that Thom was interfering in Tower matters, and she'd be in a fury.

 

 

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1) Duhara being Black isn't necessary. All that is necessary is Sierin not to share her mind with anyone, and Chesmal to realize that the questions seem focused on her activities. Duhara herself is a good candidate for becoming paranoid, if shut out of Sierin's investigations. Dropping a hint to Duhara about Red activities might be sufficient- especially if the Reds specifically were using Duhara to keep Sierin in ignorance of their mission. No matter how much she favored them, she was an outsider, and the Reds are the most Tower-within-Tower of the Ajahs.

 

Except that several years passed between when Siuan left the note and when Chesmal learnt of Sierin moving against her. One would think that if Sierin had successfully concealed the investigation for that long--and investigation that would have focussed on Chesmal sooner, rather than later, wouldn't let something slip at that late stage--the only reason for things to change were if Sierin were preparing to actually make her move, and pulled trusted sisters into the action.

 

Beyond that, Duhara nature reeks of her being dark--and given she's in Caemlyn were Elayne just captured Chesmal, i think the set up is there.

 

 

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Duhara reeks of being Dark?

 

Must mean Byar is, and Elza isn't. Except that's not the case.

 

Also, there's concealing what the investigation is, which is a far different thing from concealing one is happening, which is my point. No doubt Duhara would already be suspicious because she knew something was up, making her receptive to hints from Chesmal.

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Duhara reeks of being Dark?

 

Must mean Byar is, and Elza isn't. Except that's not the case.

 

Also, there's concealing what the investigation is, which is a far different thing from concealing one is happening, which is my point. No doubt Duhara would already be suspicious because she knew something was up, making her receptive to hints from Chesmal.

 

I get what you mean, and its a very real issue, but there are differences between Byar and Duhara--he belongs to a naturally fanatical institution, she was directly in position to be involved with a known action of the Black Ajah....

 

Why precisely do you suggest Duhara would be suspicious that an investigation was happening? And your implication that Chesmal was able to manipulate that suggestion is confusing since Sierin was able to conceal this investigation for years. What evidence do you have to suggest Chesmal learnt of it, or that Duhara had suspicions about its existence?

 

Sierin drawing Duhara in when she was ready to strike, however, makes a lot of sense. Sierin accurately concealed this investigation for years, and her original and immediate focus must have been Chesmal, all conducted without Chesmal realising. That is the reality of events. If Duhara is involved, she was brought in by Sierin, not the other way round.

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Sierin had one avenue of investigation regarding the Black Ajah- Chesmal.

 

It's not difficult to guess that Chesmal figured out she was being watched or that Sierin was looking into her.

 

I'm saying Duhara doesn't have to be Black. Remember, Siuan didn't include Leane in her own search for Blacks.

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Yes, but what of my argument--Chesmal would have been the first point of investigation, if Sierin passed through that without Chesmal learning, then then did she tip her hand years later? Your point about Chesmal learning is apt--but only during the stage were she was openly being investigated, and that was long past.

 

As for Duhara, of course she might not be black. I suggest her because she explains a gap in the events logically, and because the logical answer to that gap fits her nature so aptly.

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