The foxhead ter'angreal and Balefire

[Asmo]

I'm interested to find out if the foxhead ter'angreal is protected from Balefire. We know that the wearer is protected from direct weaves, and since a fireball was a direct weave (assuming that Nynaeve's ter'angreal works like Mat's), then it stands to reason that Balefire would also disperse upon hitting the user. But what about the item itself?

 

When the ter'angreal is hit by Balefire, the weave dissolves, but when it is hit by Balefire, it also ceases to exist before it was hit, so the Balefire won't be dissolved since what would dissolve it does not exist at the moment it hit. So if you target the ter'angreal with Balefire, you can kill the one wearing it. Or not?

 

Hopefully we won't find out, since it will be epic fail if Mat dies. Food for thought, though.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Judging by what happened when Rahvin killed Mat, Mat died via a lightening bolt, which is aparantly not a direct weave, meaning it wasnt "latched onto" Mat like a shield would be, or a club of Air. Since balefire isnt a direct weave (as in you dont latch it onto anyone, so anyone that gets in the way is the one who is balefired) I wonder whether or not the medalion WOULD protect Mat from balefire

[wconn1979]

Judging by what happened when Rahvin killed Mat, Mat died via a lightening bolt, which is aparantly not a direct weave, meaning it wasnt "latched onto" Mat like a shield would be, or a club of Air. Since balefire isnt a direct weave (as in you dont latch it onto anyone, so anyone that gets in the way is the one who is balefired) I wonder whether or not the medalion WOULD protect Mat from balefire

 

I never thought about the Lightning killing mat, could it have been the explosion that killed mat and not a direct strike of the lightning?  or would the lightning not be considered part of Rahvins weave just an effect of the weave. 

[Asmo]

Judging by what happened when Rahvin killed Mat, Mat died via a lightening bolt, which is aparantly not a direct weave, meaning it wasnt "latched onto" Mat like a shield would be, or a club of Air. Since balefire isnt a direct weave (as in you dont latch it onto anyone, so anyone that gets in the way is the one who is balefired) I wonder whether or not the medalion WOULD protect Mat from balefire

 

Cyndane's fireball was extinguished upon closing in on Alivia. Unless the ter'angreal vary - which is a possibility to consider, but right now, it's impossible to come to a conclusion - then your interpretation of direct and indirect weaves is wrong. Fire is sustained by the One Power - letting the weave subside extinguishes the fire. Lightning, however, is triggered - you heat up the sky appropriately, and lightning falls. That's the best explanation I can come up with concerning the issue.

[trakand_01]

As far as I'm aware, the ter'angreal stop actual saidin/saidar from touching mat, but dont stop the knock on effects.

 

So you couldnt club mat with Air, but you could flatten him with a tree you'd knocked down with the power.

 

Rahvin was able to kill Mat because he didnt channel AT him. he channeled to create a storm, which resulted in lightening, which killed mat (and aviendha and asmodean).

 

Vandene / Adeleas played about with him if you remember, on their journey to Ebou Dar. They threw books and stones at him - used the power to pick up the stone, then throw it at him. Still hit him.

 

I'm inclined to think that Balefire wouldn't touch Mat. BUT if you balefire'd the ground he was stood on, he'd fall through the hole.

[Asmo]

I'm inclined to think that Balefire wouldn't touch Mat. BUT if you balefire'd the ground he was stood on, he'd fall through the hole.

 

Now I think that would not be a use any channeler would ever think of putting Balefire to.

 

Regardless, I'm curious as to whether the ter'angreal will survive the Balefire, considering the weave's backtracking effects, rather than it's wearer.

[Majsju]

 

Regardless, I'm curious as to whether the ter'angreal will survive the Balefire, considering the weave's backtracking effects, rather than it's wearer.

 

It would be an incredibly stupid flaw if the foxheads effect did not include itself when worn. If that was the case, no need for balefire, any weave that has the power to destroy physical objects would suffice.

 

And if the foxheads effect does include itself, it does not matter how much balefire you throw at it,

1. The weave never touches the foxhead, and thus the time-altering effect of balefire never becomes an issue.

2. The foxhead is an object that does not have a thread in the pattern, so the balefires time-altering effect never becomes an issue.

[trakand_01]

Just another thought regarding balefire and inanimate objects...

 

Say you had 3 aes sedai who had literally just taken oaths on the oath rod. Another (4th AS) holds the oath rod. If you balefire the one holding the rod, both she and the rod cease to exist. What is the effect on the other 3?

 

Do they cease to be under oath (and what is the effect of being so suddenly released), did they never take the oath, or is there no effect?

[wconn1979]

I would think they never took the oath so there is no effect.

[RAND AL THOR]

 

They would have a vague recollection of taking the oaths, nothing more.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Their memory wouldnt be affected. They would remember taking the Oaths, but the Oaths would have been removed.

 

Balefire doesnt rewrite history, it alters certain things about it, leaving only the memory of what happened. Otherwise, rand wouldnt remember killing Rahvin and would still think him alive, Morgase woudlnt remember Gaebril, which she does...

[RAND AL THOR]

Their memory wouldnt be affected. They would remember taking the Oaths, but the Oaths would have been removed.

 

Balefire doesnt rewrite history, it alters certain things about it, leaving only the memory of what happened. Otherwise, rand wouldnt remember killing Rahvin and would still think him alive, Morgase woudlnt remember Gaebril, which she does...

 

I said 'vague recollections' because that is what they will have. When the hounds slobbered over Mat, Mat only vaguely remembered them after they were balefired.

[trakand_01]

To his defence, they'd only JUST broken through the door when Rand balefired them. Gaebril was around for much longer.

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

To his defence, they'd only JUST broken through the door when Rand balefired them. Gaebril was around for much longer.

 

 

 

Well yes true but my response was aimed at your former example of the 3 AS and those 3 AS have just taken the oaths, right?

[trakand_01]

I see what you mean, but I think it all depends on the significance of the action. For example I've just passed someone in the corridor, less than 50 seconds ago. If someone said to me 'did they smile at you?' I'd have to think about it - i might have a vague recollection that they did. If we'd stopped for a chat however, I'd remember that clearly.

 

Does that make any sense? Mat being slobbered on by the darkhounds was quite a small occurrence in comparison to taking (and feeling) oaths.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

I said 'vague recollections' because that is what they will have. When the hounds slobbered over Mat, Mat only vaguely remembered them after they were balefired.

 

thats called being confused...

 

he BELIEVED he saw the DH breaking through the door, YET, once all is done, the door is in one piece.  now, what REALLY happened?

 

its a simple logical inconsistency.  hence, mat was confused.  mat's memory worked fine, its just some things didn't make sense.  there is NO diminishment of memory in this case.

[Silver]

There's no way to tell if it's one or the other. In the end, the result is still the same. Vague recollections of what happened.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Mat DID see the Darkhound breaking through the door, yet seeing the door intact afterwards would definitely confuse anyone, unless you knew all about balefire, which Mat doesnt.

 

QUOTE

"When anything is destroyed with balefire, it ceases to exist before the moment of its destruction, like a thread that burns away from where the flame touched it. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time it ceases to exist. The strongest Moiraine can manage will remove only a few seconds from the Pattern.... For as far back as you destroy [something], whatever it did during that time no longer happened. Only the memories remain, for those who saw or experienced it." [The Fires of Heaven: 6, Gateways, 119]

UNQUOTE

 

The bold bit is the key. Now, before anyone mentions when Rahvin kills Mat and Mat doesnt remember, thats because Mat doesnt know about balefire. Asmodeans PoV just before he snuffs it shows that he had a good idea what happened. Asmodean knew he died and balefire had brought him back; he isnt stupid. Mat isnt either, but Mat doesnt know how balefire works or even what it is. If balefire erases memory, then how is it that when Moiraine balefired Belal, Rand remembers it? Ta'veren wouldnt protect from something like this, so Rand is just like anyone else in this case. Rand wouldnt remember Belal turning up at the Stone, and so he wouldnt know Belal died at that point at all

 

Imagine you cut yourself somehow, and a moment later the cut, blood and pain vanished, even the hole in your clothing was gone, and your hand was unscarred. Wouldnt you wonder why? If you could remember it happening, and it suddenly was as if it had never happened, wouldnt you question it, just like Mat did?

[trakand_01]

I have experienced exactly the same thing. See, I'm SURE I had two £20 notes in my purse when I went out last night, this morning, all I could find was a few coins...

 

Was I balefired in the night!?

;D :D ;)

[Asmo]

I have experienced exactly the same thing. See, I'm SURE I had two £20 notes in my purse when I went out last night, this morning, all I could find was a few coins...

 

Was I balefired in the night!?

;D :D ;)

 

Maybe the two 20s were Heroes of the Horn, and were called by the Horn of Valere to fund Rand's expedition into the Blight. I'm sure they will be returned to you once their role in the Pattern has been fulfilled.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

I have experienced exactly the same thing. See, I'm SURE I had two £20 notes in my purse when I went out last night, this morning, all I could find was a few coins...

 

Was I balefired in the night!?

UNQUOTE

 

Lol, if you were balefired in the night you wouldnt have written that post...maybe the person you got the £20s off was balefired?

 

Seriously though, if Rand punched Mat and Nynaeve said Mats jaw was broken, and then someone balefired Rand, Mats jaw would be fine again, yet Mat and Nynaeve would still remember it clearly.

 

 

[trakand_01]

Aha, so someone balefired Mr Trakand_01... That explains that one.

 

And the headache?

Sorry, i'm diverting a thread, I will stop.  :P :o