Mat vs Galad and Gawyn

[Finnssss22]

Because fights in WoT-world aren't realistic.

 

If we're going down this route we might as well ask how any man no matter how skilled is able to kill multiple, heavily armored bear-men (Trollocs) in quick succession.

Or better yet, how the Aiel haven't been completely slaughtered already. An entire army of light infantry is not exactly threatening, no matter how well trained they are.

 

That aren't just light infantry though. To call them just light infantry is like calling a Ferrari just a car.

Every one of them is also an archer that can strike and move like light cavalry.

Heh, not to mention their stealth capabilities and are among the, if not the most highly trained, experienced and versatile troops in Randland.

[TNine]

That aren't just light infantry though. To call them just light infantry is like calling a Ferrari just a car.

Every one of them is also an archer that can strike and move like light cavalry.

They cannot move or strike like light cavalry at all, except in the long term. In the short term (such as over the course of a battle), horses are a hell of a lot faster.

 

Regardless, neither archers nor light cavalry are all that great against heavy infantry or heavy cavalry. There is nothing in the Aiel arsenal that they can use to break a infantry formation, or stop a heavy cavalry charge, or last more than a few seconds charging through a killing field. The Aiel can pose a serious threat, but in a pitched battle they are going to be absolutely shut down by any competent general. They are "just" light infantry because they don't have anything to compensate for the weakness of light infantry. It doesn't matter how good you are when you have such huge and obvious weaknesses.

[Finnssss22]

That aren't just light infantry though. To call them just light infantry is like calling a Ferrari just a car.

Every one of them is also an archer that can strike and move like light cavalry.

They cannot move or strike like light cavalry at all, except in the long term. In the short term (such as over the course of a battle), horses are a hell of a lot faster.

 

Regardless, neither archers nor light cavalry are all that great against heavy infantry or heavy cavalry. There is nothing in the Aiel arsenal that they can use to break a infantry formation, or stop a heavy cavalry charge, or last more than a few seconds charging through a killing field. The Aiel can pose a serious threat, but in a pitched battle they are going to be absolutely shut down by any competent general. They are "just" light infantry because they don't have anything to compensate for the weakness of light infantry. It doesn't matter how good you are when you have such huge and obvious weaknesses.

 

You mean besides also being an entire force of bowmen that can shoot on the run and remind me again what the best weapon is for stopping a cavalry charge...pretty sure it's a spear and that's forgetting how fast they are and how quickly those heavy cavalry be out manuevered and swallowed up.

Sorry man, you seem to be confusing the Aiel with a stereotype of what classic light infantry is. You can't just call them light infantry anymore than you could just call them Archers or anything else. They are unique.

[TNine]

You mean besides also being an entire force of bowmen that can shoot on the run

They can't fire upon and outrun the cavalry, though. They can shoot and move pretty quickly, but they won't get enough space to get a more than a volley or two off. Remember, they are using light bows, not the heavy bows needed to cut down a heavy archery charge, like a Two Rivers bow or a heavy crossbow. They might lower their numbers a bit, but not enough of those bowshots are going to go through the armor to really make a difference in the few moments in closing.

 

and remind me again what the best weapon is for stopping a cavalry charge...pretty sure it's a spear

It is not. Pikes and lances and shield walls are need to stop cavalry charges. Basically big, heavy things to slow down the horses so the infantry aren't just run over. The short spears that the Aiel use are going to be marginally more effective than swords, but they won't be able to pierce heavy armor so quickly, and they won't have time for a second shot. Meanwhile, the lack of armor on their part means that the cavalrymen can simply slaughter the footmen with swords and lances of their own.

 

and that's forgetting how fast they are and how quickly those heavy cavalry be out manuevered and swallowed up.

Heavy cavalry will move a LOT faster than infantry in the short term. Yes, they can be slowed down and swallowed up given time, but since you can't actually redirect where the cavalry are going without some heavy infantry, they can simply pull around and head back for the safety of a shield wall (Whitecloak style), and the Aiel are helpless to stop them.

 

Sorry man, you seem to be confusing the Aiel with a stereotype of what classic light infantry is. You can't just call them light infantry anymore than you could just call them Archers or anything else. They are unique.

They are unarmored footmen, that prefer using short spears or light bows. They could do a LOT of damage in a war, but not in a pitched battle. They would need to use their high long-term mobility and high success in melees to outmaneuver and outraid the enemy. In a pitched battle, however, they are arrow fodder, or cavalry fodder, or meatgrinder fodder. The cadin'sura may be good for raids, but going up against a formation and you will get run over.

[Finnssss22]

You mean besides also being an entire force of bowmen that can shoot on the run

They can't fire upon and outrun the cavalry, though. They can shoot and move pretty quickly, but they won't get enough space to get a more than a volley or two off. Remember, they are using light bows, not the heavy bows needed to cut down a heavy archery charge, like a Two Rivers bow or a heavy crossbow. They might lower their numbers a bit, but not enough of those bowshots are going to go through the armor to really make a difference in the few moments in closing.

 

and remind me again what the best weapon is for stopping a cavalry charge...pretty sure it's a spear

It is not. Pikes and lances and shield walls are need to stop cavalry charges. Basically big, heavy things to slow down the horses so the infantry aren't just run over. The short spears that the Aiel use are going to be marginally more effective than swords, but they won't be able to pierce heavy armor so quickly, and they won't have time for a second shot. Meanwhile, the lack of armor on their part means that the cavalrymen can simply slaughter the footmen with swords and lances of their own.

 

and that's forgetting how fast they are and how quickly those heavy cavalry be out manuevered and swallowed up.

Heavy cavalry will move a LOT faster than infantry in the short term. Yes, they can be slowed down and swallowed up given time, but since you can't actually redirect where the cavalry are going without some heavy infantry, they can simply pull around and head back for the safety of a shield wall (Whitecloak style), and the Aiel are helpless to stop them.

 

Sorry man, you seem to be confusing the Aiel with a stereotype of what classic light infantry is. You can't just call them light infantry anymore than you could just call them Archers or anything else. They are unique.

They are unarmored footmen, that prefer using short spears or light bows. They could do a LOT of damage in a war, but not in a pitched battle. They would need to use their high long-term mobility and high success in melees to outmaneuver and outraid the enemy. In a pitched battle, however, they are arrow fodder, or cavalry fodder, or meatgrinder fodder. The cadin'sura may be good for raids, but going up against a formation and you will get run over.

 

Heh, too bad every scenario you just laid out would require the Aiel to be in a single formation, standing there waiting. *cough*stereotyped light infantry*cough*

I mean yeah, lets forget about the manuevering, tactics and terrain that would all have to be in almost perfect harmony to "pin" the Aiel like you say.

Forget that that group of Aiel can break into numerous groups, each of which performing a different task and each group can switch between each task in a moments notice.

Because that group of Aiel isn't going to have one group prepare to receive the charge, while others pelt them with arrows while yet others flank them for counter attack.

Because that group of Aiel is just going to stay or even get in range of those stationary longbow/x-bowmen when there's heavy cavalry on the field?

 

Not only are you still stereotyping them but your thinking of how they would attack and defend is not only very one dimensional but also quite frankly, extremely crude tacticaly.

 

But hey, lets just line the opposing forces up on an open battlefield, charge each other and go from there because that's how most battles are fought right ;)

[TNine]

Heh, too bad every scenario you just laid out would require the Aiel to be in a single formation, standing there waiting. *cough*stereotyped light infantry*cough*

Yeah, because breaking up into small groups is a great way to break a formation? Let's forget the fact that breaking apart won't work against cavalry who can simply run you down. Or that there is only so much room on a battlefield anyway.

 

The solution when you are outgunned is not to break up into smaller groups anyway. If 10,000 Aiel can't break through a pikeline, what the hell makes you think ten groups of 1000 can?

 

I mean yeah, lets forget about the manuevering, tactics and terrain that would all have to be in almost perfect harmony to "pin" the Aiel like you say.

You don't need to pin them at all. You can either chase them down, or just wait for them to come to you. Killing grounds aren't very hard to set up, and most infantry formation can maneuver plenty quick enough to break any large charge--and if the charge is smaller, they'll break themselves on the formation anyway. The strategies i'm talking about work on open fields or hilly terrains, with slight modifications.

 

Forget that that group of Aiel can break into numerous groups, each of which performing a different task and each group can switch between each task in a moments notice.

A point in their favor. The problem is that none of the different tasks that the Aiel can do can actually break a heavy cavalry charge, or heavy infantry line.

 

Because that group of Aiel isn't going to have one group prepare to receive the charge, while others pelt them with arrows while yet others flank them for counter attack.

Which won't do shit against a heavy cavalry charge anyway. Flanks are not going to work unless you have the weight to break a formation from the side, anyway, and since they Aiel are infantry they are going to be too slow to really take advantage of the surprise anyway. They don't have the weight to break through a shield wall. Any straight-up engagement will result in a lot more Aiel deaths than defender deaths.

 

Because that group of Aiel is just going to stay or even get in range of those stationary longbow/x-bowmen when there's heavy cavalry on the field?

Failure to engage isn't exactly a winning strategy. And they can still just be run down by the heavy cavalry.

 

Not only are you still stereotyping them but your thinking of how they would attack and defend is not only very one dimensional but also quite frankly, extremely crude tacticaly.

There is not a single tool in the Aiel arsenal that can pose any kind of threat to a heavy cavalry charge, beyond slowing them down with their bodies. It's kind of annoying to hear my tactical thinking is crude from someone who thinks a short spear is an effective weapon against a heavy cavalry charge. Or that the idea that because a group of lightly armored short-spear using infantry suddenly becomes not light infantry because they can use a bow-and-arrow.

 

But hey, lets just line the opposing forces up on an open battlefield, charge each other and go from there because that's how most battles are fought right ;)

Until the advent of the machine gun and heavy artillery, yes, actually. It is a bit more complicated than that, but you need to have charges and formations if you want to get anywhere, or else you will get picked off piecemeal. The Aiel are slower, lower-ranged, and weaker defensively than most of the forces they go against, which is a very bad combo.

[Morden]

What you've got to remember is that the Aiel are basically the WoT equivelent of the Fremen. Desert hardened troops who learn to fight at a very young age, who keep on fighting till they die, almost every man is more than a match for a well trained soldier and only the best can top them. A bit different to people who essentially live pampered lives in comparison.

 

As for Cavalry, well Cavalry in WoT does not impress me, because other than the borderlanders they dont really do it any sort of justice. They consider it a noble position and look down on any soldier on foot, see them as easy pickings and just charge flat out at them. Lan described the Aiel battle formations, and they are split into four groups which engage their opponents simultaneously apart from the 4th which is a reserve group which will seek out any weak points or strengthen any parts where needed.

 

Also a Cavalry charge is very hard to stop, but if you are mobile it is not as hard to avoid, all the Aiel have to do is place there troops in positions of uneven group or up a slope, something which any chief worth his water would do because it places the Cavalry in a weakened position and allows them to be flanked from both sides by the Aiel shortbows.

 

Against the Aiel, Cavalry must be used to support the foot soldiers and attack whilst the Aiel are engaged against infantry, which is something no one really contemplates south of the borderlands because of their views on peasants.

[Barid Bel Medar]

So, once again, interesting debate, but derailing the thread. Feel free to create another topic dedicated to this discussion, but lets not derail this one any further. It is about Mat/Gawyn/Galad fight.

[Morden]

Good point, Regarding Mat.. well by the time they actually realised he was serious about fighting them, cause lets face it they were reluctant to fight him and didnt really want to, nor did they want to hurt him. He'd pretty much knocked Gawyn out and was throwing everything he could into stopping Galad from having much time to do anything.

 

Also remember that his dad had won every Quarterstaff competition in Emonds Field for what's been most likely decades, and he taught his son how to fight with it and not just how to hurt but how to kill if needed.

 

Swords dont have the same sort of reach either and most of the swords in randland are two handed on the whole and follow sword forms designed towards fighting people using swords, axes, spears or against horsemen. Fighting against someone using a staff is different than most as it has elements of a spear but the bludgeoning effects of a mace, while giving fairly good protection.

 

And the staffs ability to parry attacks and counter very quickly is formidable.

[Tensai0211]

Naw man, after Galad rolls and comes up with his sword, the duel between him and Mat was reset. He was taking Mat 100% seriously now and it didn't matter.

Mat overwelmed him despite Galad "using every once of his skill to keep Mat's staff from him".

 

What I stated previously is correct and I see no other way of reading that scene.

 

I read that differently, I saw that as - he rolled to get his weapon back and then started to take Mat seriously but because he lost his sword getting it back forced him into a bad position and Mat then overwhelmed him with a very aggressive flurry of attacks. Galad was trying to move sideways out of the corner he'd got himself into but Mat wouldn't let him, he continually forced him back and against the wall, basically he lost because he underestimated Mat, got disarmed and was forced onto the defensive in a bad position and couldn't recover.

 

My point wasn't that he wasn't fighting with all his skill but that it doesn't matter how skilled you are if you make the mistake of underestimating your opponent you will pay a price.

[Tensai0211]

He did well against Couladin and against the gholam. So, Mat will probably destroy Gawyn or Galad with his ashendari if his loss of half the light doesn't hinder him (which I don't think it will).

 

Loss of an eye will destroy his depth perception he'll be at a serious disadvantage in a fight now, he'll have to rely on his luck to get him through and focus on being a general.

[Orderofolde]

There is a scene where Mat fights both Galad and Gawyn and wins. Is this practically possible? Lets look at the odds against Mat:

 

1) He has just been under coma (practically) for several days and has been wasting away for several months. He has just recovered from severe damage.

 

2) Gawyn killed Hammar and Coulin who were the Warder teachers. They were most likely very skilled. And yet Gawyn was able to kill them. Furthermore, Mat was able to beat Gawyn! I might point out that Hammar and Coulin were killed in Book 4 but this duel occured in book 3. But there isn't much of a time gap.

 

3) Galad was able to kill the Commander of the Whitecloaks, who has an excellent reputation as a blademaster.

 

So, is it even possible for Mat to win in these circumstances? And lets not forget the weapons they were using....

 

This was all before Mat got the memories so he's all on his own.

The easiest that I can compare this to is that where Blademasters are master of the forms of the blade, we should not overlook that other weapons can be Mastered. The Chinese Martial Arts include masters of the knife/dagger, the spear, bow, every sort of weapon. Staffs have a longer reach than a blade, and wielded properly, a Master of the quarterstaff or spear can face multiple opponents. Gawyn and Galad had doubt and scorn working against them and they were not yet Blademasters though close in skill for so short a time. You can compare this also to (corny, I know) Starwars where Qwi-Gon and his apprentice face Darth Maul. The stuntman was trained in the use of a staff and they used real martial arts sword and staff techniques. Just watch a few demonstrations of martial arts weapons competitions and you will be amazed at the beauty and speed with which some of these guys can fight. So yes, not only is it possible, but some of the awesome moves these guys can do are quite hard to put into words and hard to pace correctly in a reader's mind.

[realspkr]

A staff has numerous advantages over a sword. It's highly effective at both middle and long range and switching between these is trivial. It can both thrust and crush at both ranges with equal effectiveness, and most importantly, at middle range it has 2 attacking and 3 defensive parts. A sword meant to wield in 2 hands is effective only at middle range. Thrusts expose the head to attack if beyond short range, making them dangerous. Further, most swords aren't sharp on the whole blade, they only carry an edge past the first 3-6 inches (the shoulder, or much more if the blade is very long) since it has no useful power near the handle.

 

Also, a staff can turn the power absorbed by a block into an attack that guarantees absolutely the attacker isn't blocking. (A sword strikes to the head but is blocked by the left arm length of the staff and turned down causing the right of the staff to come up with equal power; one step forward and your swordsman is taking a stiff shot to the short ribs where their sword isn't.)

 

In a fight against a staff, I much prefer a shorter sword meant for one hand so I can charge to short range where the staff can only press to gain range.