Why did Aes Sedai "forget" how to Travel?

[GrandpaG]

Out of all of the Talents that should have been passed down over the years, it seems that ANY Aes Sedai would have wanted to remember how to Travel.  They remembered how to make a tiny flame to light their way.  Most of them can blow out a candle from across the room.  Healing is a lot more difficult to learn, apparently, because few Aes Sedai can heal but most are catching on quickly to Traveling.  Why did they not pass it down?

 

The Forsaken remember how to Travel.  They have rules of etiquette to follow (send a warning signal ahead).  They think nothing of it.  It must have been common among channelers during the Age of Legends.  Was it reserved only to the elite-of-the-elite so that it was a sign of your rank among the Aes Sedai that you were allowed to Travel and the lesser Aes Sedai were not allowed to?

 

Maybe it has some unknown side affect?  Rand describes male Traveling as punching a hole through two places in the pattern.  At the very least, that has to temporarily affect the two places (and the lives located there) in some manner or another.  Are the holes permanent?  I don't remember reading a description of female Traveling.

 

If it is not hard to learn, is EXTREMELY handy to use, and does no harm to anyone (like Compulsion does), why was it forgotten when other skills were remembered and passed down?  Something does not add up here.

[RAND AL THOR]

I am not sure how organize AS were during and after the Breaking. Was the Tower founded 2000 or 3000 years ago? I think it is 2000. In which case I do not think that female channelers would have been found easily by existing AS and taught etc....

Thats why so much was lost.

Again, I am unsure about exactly WHEN the WT was founded. Someone clear it please. ;)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Traveling is considered to be a major Talent.  For reasons unknown, Talents, both major and minor have been disappearing for generations.

 

Traveling requires great strength.  In one case we see, it takes a circle of three to make the gateway because individually, none of them can do it alone.  So, Traveling would have become an increasingly rare ability with the passage of time, due to AS belief that current individuals lacked the requisite strength, if for no other reason.

 

Skimming, which requires less strength to accomplish, also died out.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I have a bit of a theory on this.

 

It is well known that the One Power can achieve much more when Saidin and Saidar are used together. What if the male and female thing extends not only to working together, but to things like the gift being passed on to the next generation? So, for example, maybe if a channeler would be much stronger if both parents could channel? If that were true, then it would explain why the average channeler strength might have dropped dramatically in the generations following the Breaking. All male channelers went insane, the majority died, and male channelers in general became feared, eventually there was an order to all Aes Sedai that men needed gentling immediately.

 

If that were the case, then I would see the current time as the beginning of the buildup to the next Age of Legends equivalent, since Im pretty sure the Ashaman situation will be cleared up and the Black and White Towers may end up uniting? It is becoming clear to the current Aes Sedai that if they work with the Ashaman they really can achieve wonders-if only they declared to the White Tower in general they had cleansed Saidin!-so soon they will end up forming an alliance bigger and better than Aes Sedai and Ashaman being bonded.

[RAND AL THOR]

Traveling is considered to be a major Talent.

 

I'm pretty sure that this is incorrect. So many sisters and Asha'man can travel. Talents are very very rare. Some Asha'man specifically tells Rand that Taim teaches travelling to a Soldier as soon as he is ready. Travelling is NOT a Talent. It is a weave-though quite complex. A further example is Sorilea who was able to show Cadsuane the Travelling weave though the weave fell apart because Sorilea is so weak in the Power.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Refer to the Glossary in the back of your books.

 

Traveling is indeed considered a major Talent.

[Raistlin]

Could it be that after the breaking that the AS were scattered and not able to pass on all there knowledge. I do not believe the WT was formed until well after The breaking. I am sure that gentling as many of the Male AS at the time probly killed off a great many of the AS of the time period. Less AS to teach newer AS and lack of numbers would allow it to fade. They might also of wanted to put an end to traveling for good.  That power in the wrong hands is very dangerous. There was a great deal of threats at the time.

[TedM]

You must not have finished the books, or perhaps you forget. So this may contain spoilers.

 

Out of all of the Talents that should have been passed down over the years, it seems that ANY Aes Sedai would have wanted to remember how to Travel.  They remembered how to make a tiny flame to light their way.  Most of them can blow out a candle from across the room.  Healing is a lot more difficult to learn, apparently, because few Aes Sedai can heal but most are catching on quickly to Traveling.  Why did they not pass it down?

 

During the breaking, the world became desorted and nothing was familiar. For traveling you must know which part of the pattern you are going to. (Like 5 miles West.) And to open a gateway (unless skimming) you must know the ground well, and that can take hours if not holding the Power, but even that takes about 30 minutes or more. I imagine that the breking was tuff and there was ripples of earthquakes and killers and it would be difficult to memorize ground. But healing was useful, because loved ones would be injured by a lighting bolt along with a mad man. And making lights would be useful if you got stuck in a cave. Plus I think that in the 3000 years that the Tower has grown it has learned most of it's knowledge.

 

The Forsaken remember how to Travel.  They have rules of etiquette to follow (send a warning signal ahead).  They think nothing of it.  It must have been common among channelers during the Age of Legends.  Was it reserved only to the elite-of-the-elite so that it was a sign of your rank among the Aes Sedai that you were allowed to Travel and the lesser Aes Sedai were not allowed to?

 

I don't see any etiquette in the forsaken. (Just kidding) But yes, they think nothing of it. Aes Sedai before the breaking were generally much, much more powerful than the ones in present. I do believe this is because of not mating with two power holding beings. Think of Elayne and Rand's babies, will they be powerful in the power? We'll see.

 

Maybe it has some unknown side affect?  Rand describes male Traveling as punching a hole through two places in the pattern.  At the very least, that has to temporarily affect the two places (and the lives located there) in some manner or another.  Are the holes permanent?  I don't remember reading a description of female Traveling.

There are no known side effects, and doubt there will be any. The male half of the power is like a mountain of ice and a storm of fire, and I believe it burns a hole, but if the weave is not tied off, then when the holder releases the weave the Wheel is repaired. But I do think that the Wheel weaves this hole itself because, well, it is driven by the power.

 

As for female traveling, how that works is that you imagine the place that you want to be as the place you are. So you imagine that the two places are the same, then weave to make a link to the next place. This is very much like going into the World of Dreams because you need to imagine the same world, but different. That is why Egwene was able to discover the weave without more than a description from the Forsaken. They are not permanent either. But if one is left tied of, it is almost like a waygate just standing there, only lethal to walk into the edge.

 

If it is not hard to learn, is EXTREMELY handy to use, and does no harm to anyone (like Compulsion does), why was it forgotten when other skills were remembered and passed down?  Something does not add up here.

 

I do think that most skills were not passed down, I think that they were mostly learned in the time after the Breaking to the present day.

 

The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills, go in peace and in the light.

 

-TedM

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Bob, you're right. I just found it.

 

Many Talents are now known only by their names and sometimes vague descriptions. Some, such as Traveling (the ability to shift

oneself from one place to another without crossing the intervening space) which had been lost are now being rediscovered. Others such as Foretelling (the ability to foretell future events, but in a general way)

and Delving (the location of ores and possibly their removal from the ground),are now found only rarely if at all.

 

Can someone please tell me how this makes any sense at all? When Egwene first shows Elayne the travelling weave, Elayne tells her to show her again and that she too would be able to do it. That sounds much like a normal weave. And also, SO many Asha'man and AS can do it. Sorilea could form the weave! How is this possibly a Talent? Makes no sense at all.

[Tigara]

Healing is a Talent. Some, like Elayne, can Heal bruises and scrapes, but no more. Samitsu can heal nearly anything by using the same weave. Why? Because my theory is that every channeler has each Talent at varying strengths, but with some (like Foretelling and Dreaming) they are not strong enough to be used. Every channeler can heal is they know the weave, so every channeler can Travel if they know the weave, but it depends more on strength. It could be a common Talent with lost knowledge.

[Serenla]

Traveling has been refered to as a Talent in various locations, but I do not believe that it is one.  Anyone with knowledge of the weaves and the strength can do it.  That's not a Talent.  Seeing ta'veren and Fortelling on the other hand are things that only certain people can do, those are Talents.  I think that Traveling couldn't be used because of the Breaking and became lost knowledge.  Aes Sedai probably tried to pass on the knowledge with a "don't use it because the world is changing so much it doesn't work right".  After a while it became "don't use it".  After losing the why of not using it, nobody would bother teaching it, except as a yeah we used to just pop from place to place all the time.  Over time it became a "Lost Talent"  but it is really just a lost weave.

 

 

I agree with TedM, I don't think that you could know a place well enough to Travel there with the world changing as it did during the breaking.  If you are picturing something in relation to an ocean or a mountain range and they no longer exist, you are not going to end up where you intend.  It may even be dangerous to attempt.

 

As far as being damaging to the Pattern, I don't think it is.  If the Pattern is in proportion to the rest of the Universe, the amount of space that is needed for the hole that is "bored" has to be rather insignificant.  It would be like using a very tiny sewing needle on cloth.  If you put the needle through holes that are already there and the needle is very small, the threads suffer very little to no displacement.  If the cloth is held tightly, as soon as the needle or weave is gone the threads will return to their proper place.  

[RAND AL THOR]

Traveling has been refered to as a Talent in various locations, but I do not believe that it is one.  Anyone with knowledge of the weaves and the strength can do it.  That's not a Talent.

 

Precisely. How can it be a Talent when anyone strong enough in the Power can use it and when anyone at all can actually form the weave (even though it does collapse?).

[Bob T Dwarf]

One of many inconsistencies in the series.

 

Nonetheless, it is defined as a major Talent.  And, no, I can't work out why that is so, either.

[Serenla]

The reason it is refered to as a Talent is because the Aes Sedai think that it is one.  They are wrong.  Sources such as the BWB and the glossaries at the end of the books are written not as an omnipotent source but as someone who lived in the 3rd or 4th Age.  They are written using sources that would have been available at that time.  The same sources that the Aes Sedai have that make them think that Traveling is a Talent.  Read page 9 of the BWB, you will see that even there in the preface the voice is of a 3rd Ager not the voice of an infallible reference manual. 

[GrandpaG]

Thank you for the wide variety of very interesting comments (as usual at DM...that's what I like about this place).

 

The arguments seem valid enough.  A couple surprised me.  Some lead me to a different way of thinking.  I'm still not totally convinced.

 

Imagine the breaking.  The world is in turmoil.  Male channelers are the devil in flesh and bones.  Female channelers are scrambling for safety where ever they can find it.  Probably a lot of them do not find any safe place and are killed.  As was mentioned, it takes them a thousand years to regroup.  During that thousand years, a lot of knowledge was lost.  All of that I can accept fairly easily.

 

I also accept that different channelers have different skill levels.  Out of all of the damane, Egwene was special because she could find metallic ores.  Nynaeve can heal circles around most "real" Aes Sedai.

 

This is what keeps eating at me:

 

The "present day" Aes Sedai are going NUTS over Traveling!!!

They can't get enough of it...they Travel like fish in a pond.

It seems to be easy to learn and master.

Obviously, some are going to be better at it than others, but there seems to be no "total restriction" once a channeler (male or female) has learned the method of creating the weave.

 

Even with the physical differences in the landscape after the Breaking, I can't see them totally abandoning the practice without some very good reason.  If all of the existing Aes Sedai at the time of the Breaking had been totally wiped out, then that would explain it.  Other than that, either everyone in the Age of Legends was not priviledged to "how to create the weave" or they must have forgotten it on purpose for some unknown reason.

They might also of wanted to put an end to traveling for good.  That power in the wrong hands is very dangerous. There was a great deal of threats at the time.

 

I'm probably making more out of all of this than is necessary.  In the old days when I got confused like this, either Luckers or RAW would post a "Silly Gwampy...here's your answer" post and I'd go back to spamming Fiddlesticks with a contented grin.  :)

[balefireruinssteaks]

A further example is Sorilea who was able to show Cadsuane the Travelling weave though the weave fell apart because Sorilea is so weak in the Power

 

Think of Healing, which is considered a Talent.  Many Aes Sedai know the weaves for Healing but really can't do anything with them beyond a bruise or very minor injury.  Put a cardiac arrest patient in front of them and they are doomed to die, for example.  Only an Aes Sedai who has the necessary Talent for Healing would be able to do anything with that particular patient.

 

The same for Traveling.  The weave is probably very easy to learn, along with the idea that you have to make the two places simliar (or bore a hole with men).  However, the Talent for Traveling is probably something different, as we saw when Sorilea could not make the weave work for lack of strength.  It may seem like a lot of the Aes Sedai can Travel, but in reality there aren't that many.  Even Adeleas and Vandene state that they are not strong enough for "some of the new things" when Mat asks them to make a gateway, and Elayne teaches Reanne Corly the weave for Traveling because she is one of the only ones in Caemlyn that can make it work...and there were three full Sisters there at the Palace and heaps of the Kin.

 

So I think it's just that we're seeing a lot of instances where Traveling is used...but there aren't a lot of Sisters who can actually do it.  I don't know what the rate of Traveling is for Asha'man, though it seems like more of them can Travel than Aes Sedai.

[Lille]

So I think it's just that we're seeing a lot of instances where Traveling is used...but there aren't a lot of Sisters who can actually do it.  I don't know what the rate of Traveling is for Asha'man, though it seems like more of them can Travel than Aes Sedai.

 

I think it is simply a matter of strength, most of the Asha'man are stronger then the average Aes Sedai, even if most of the Aes Sedai aren't strong at all, but those who can't travel alone link to do so.

 

Also i think it is said in the BWB that none of the pre-breaking Aes Sedai survived to the end of the breaking, not sure about this though.

[BrainFireBob]

Two facets of Travelling easily qualify as Talents.

 

1) It may require either the Talent or enormous strength to be able to Travel. ie, everyone of Rand's level can do it through sheer effort, but people who can't manage a fraction of that effort yet have the Talent can do it.

 

2) How easily and quickly you learn your location, and how far you can Travel without knowing the ground, may also be a Talent.

 

So when describing it as a Talent, you're describing how capable you are with it. What matters isn't whether you have it, but how strongly you have it. That's possibly what separates major and minor Talents- minors you either have or don't, majors you can have at varying levels of ability. Such as Healing.

 

 

[GrandpaG]

Also i think it is said in the BWB that none of the pre-breaking Aes Sedai survived to the end of the breaking, not sure about this though.

 

I don't remember reading this, but that's nothing new for me.  If this is the case, then that settles it...ALL previous knowledge was lost because there was nobody remaining to pass it down.  Everything that today's so-called "Aes Sedai" practice has been learned from scratch.  They probably heard stories from the Age of Legends about those real Aes Sedai using their Talents to perform miracles...some, such as Healing, they had already re-learned before Rand's time...others, such as Traveling, making heart stone, and making ter'angreal are just now being re-discovered (along with the other tricks of the trade that Moggy shared with the girls)...and the nasty little specialties that the Seanchan have learned.

 

If the BWB did NOT indeed make that statement, then I'm still pondering.  :)

[Blackmoore]

I agree with the assessments of post Breaking conditions.  Let me add one Stipulation and then two additional comments.

 

I think we can all agree that Travelling is a relatively high-wattage exercise.

 

First, those AS that were most powerful would probably have made it their business, and probably saw it as their duty to confront and take down the men going mad.  This would have lead to high casualties, particularly among the powerful.

 

Second, when the AS regroup they do so under the auspices of the White Tower and the Ajahs.  Everything we have seen from the Ajahs has convinced me that they are not particularly interested in sharing knowledge of channeling.  Many apparently have private Ajah tricks, and many sisters apparently have personal tricks.  Because of the chaos, the casualties and poor social environment, Travelling -- like many other "talents" -- could have degenerated into a private Ajah trick or even to the status of "personal" tricks that perhaps only a handful knew, but were not willing to teach to others.

 

 

[Lille]

GrandpaG i found what i was looking for:

Given the exceedingly long lifespan of Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends, it would seem possible that at least some Aes Sedai who were alive at the beginning of the Breaking, even some who lived when the Bore was drilled, were still living when the Breaking ended. Over the centuries there has been considerable speculation, some rather wild, about this. However, the increasingly violent nature of the times, from the drilling of the Bore to the beginning of the War of the Shadow, the war itself, and finally the centuries of the Breaking, suggest that no Aes Sedai alive at the end of the Breaking had survived that entire span, or even a significant portion of it. The one possible exception may be the Aes Sedai who were involved in the building of Rhuidean, in the Aiel Waste. Tantalizing rumors claim that Aiel Wise Ones and clan chiefs may know something of this, but unless they can be induced to be more forthcoming—and so far, they are rigidly closemouthed—little is likely to be learned beyond the fact that Aes Sedai were involved.

[GrandpaG]

This is how I am comprehending the past two pages of posts:

 

The Breaking left Randland without anyone practicing the Talent of Traveling, so, it couldn't be passed down.  It was not purposely "forgotten" any more than any of the other lost Talents/skills.  That is the answer to the original question.

 

Does that sound correct?

 

Thanks, everybody!!!

[Blackmoore]

More or less.  As I said, I think that the Breaking killed off enough people who knew how to Travel that the White Tower's twisted structure, which promotes secrecy and plotting, did the rest. 

 

 

[Kaznen]

Some one mentioned how standing around to memorize the land would have been a bad idea.

 

Now think back to the beginning of the breaking.  FAS went out in teams of 13 to hunt down the MAS and unbound forsaken (remember there were more then 13), because of how thrashed the worlds infrastructure was then had limited communications between the ajahs, if any.  So when one or two sisters get killed they need to find replacements so they can over power there enemies. 

 

So they conscript young women to just act like batteries, not having the time to teach them more then how to embrace the source.  so battery girl watches and gets more added to the number as the sisters die.  The last one does the 1st battery girl says, "Guess I'm AS now."  Going off of just what she observed the other do.

 

Goes with what Rahvin said about "Half is self taught tricks and the other half barley scratches the surface."

[RAND AL THOR]

The last one does the 1st battery girl says, "Guess I'm AS now."  Going off of just what she observed the other do.

 

Omg this is so hilarious and very likely true.