Was Latra Posae Decume a Darkfriend/Forsaken

[RAND AL THOR]

It's speculated that you can expand links with men and women beyond thirteen.

 

No way would they strike at Shayol Ghul with just 13.

 

 

But there were no women involved in the strike.

Have we actually seen Asha'man create a circle? Circles made by female Aes Sedai can be expanded with men but the other way around?

[Jonn]

It's speculated that you can expand links with men and women beyond thirteen.

 

No way would they strike at Shayol Ghul with just 13.

 

 

But there were no women involved in the strike.

Have we actually seen Asha'man create a circle? Circles made by female Aes Sedai can be expanded with men but the other way around?

 

Someone was trying to say that if Latra hadn't opposed Lews therin, he wouldn't have had to have risked more than 13 Aes Sedai on the strike at Shayol Ghul.

 

I was saying that besides the point, the whole mission was risky and many lives would have been lost either way, with men and women as well.

[RAND AL THOR]

It's speculated that you can expand links with men and women beyond thirteen.

 

No way would they strike at Shayol Ghul with just 13.

 

 

But there were no women involved in the strike.

Have we actually seen Asha'man create a circle? Circles made by female Aes Sedai can be expanded with men but the other way around?

 

Someone was trying to say that if Latra hadn't opposed Lews therin, he wouldn't have had to have risked more than 13 Aes Sedai on the strike at Shayol Ghul.

 

I was saying that besides the point, the whole mission was risky and many lives would have been lost either way, with men and women as well.

 

Ah OK.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Placing the Seals wasn't simply a matter of raw power, it was also a matter of precision.  That's why the original plan had been for a circle of only 13.  6 men and 7 women.  the minimum circle that combined the required elements in the maximally effective way.

 

Had the women cooperated, that is the number of channelers who would have been involved in actually doing the sealing.

 

... The strike was to be carried out at Shayol Ghul, the one place on earth where that "thinness in the Pattern" makes the Bore detectable.  A raiding force consisting of soldiers for security and a circle of seven female Aes Sedai and six male would travel there and implant seal held by the focus points.

 

Certainly that plan had risks.  What action during wartime doesn't?  And, so what?  Once the access keys were lost, it was the best plan they had available in the time they had remaining.

[maximuswynn]

Latra was cinsumed by the power she held and felt all-mighty. She thought waiting and "specific" sa'angreal could save her. Even when reality hit her between the eyes she refused to see sense in LT's plan. Therefore I do not think she was a darkfriend, simply shallow and selfish.

[Valinthros]

Secondly, just because his actions led to the Breaking, doesn't mean it's totally Lews Therin's fault now does it?

 

Exactly my point. In which I quoted you as saying he was at fault, and in a follow up that he was not.  Which is it?  Shifting blame, which I pointed out, should be laid at the shadow's feet, is exactly what you've been doing.

 

the original question is: Was Latra a Darkfriend?

 

People then took that as a cue to assign blame for how the Strike at Shayol Ghul turned out.

 

Fact is, assigning blame isn't really the same as proving whether or not Latra was a Darkfriend.

 

The context then applied to what I said about whether or not to blame Lews Therin or Rand for the mistakes or mishaps they've committed.

 

It's irrelevant.

 

Well, I'm not comparing Bush to LTT or Decume.  That's a bit different, but I do see your point.  Which.. only backs up my point.  So, you are agreeing, in fact, that LTT wasnt to blame for the outcome of the Strike at Shayol Ghul?  So, no more shifting blame to LTT for the events and not all parties involved?  I.E.  The Shadow.  ;)

 

Lews Therin causing the Breaking, doesn't make him a darkfriend does it?

 

So, being a darkfriend doesn't necessarily have anything to do with causing the Breaking.

 

Latra couldn't know that her opposition would lead to the Breaking any more than Lews Therin could know.

 

I do know that if she was a Darkfriend, the Shadow would have long expected Lews Therin's attack on Shayol Ghul and it would have failed even before they could get to the tainting of saidin.

 

That's why I think it's pointless to rant about who is more at fault for the Breaking.

 

All of the antagonism towards Latra is made up, a projection.

 

We don't know anything about her personality to come to these conclusions, and if you want to say actions speak louder, or inaction for that matter...Lews Therin's approach towards things is the much more direct of routes towards what ended up being the Breaking, but we think all kinds of good things about him.

 

If this is all in response to my post, first remember, in none of my posts did I blame Decume for the breaking.  So, alot of what you wrote in response to my post has no relevence to what I challenged you to provide.  Please dont assume that I blame Decume, I dont.  I blame the Shadow.  It's a direct result of the DO's hold on the world.  The Light used the tools that they had available to try and overcome, the result was unforseen.  The main goal was accomplished with collateral damage occuring.  Which goes to say that LTT was not responsible either.  The direct result of the DO's influence, i.e. his counterstrike, was the taint.  Which caused the breaking.  ;)

 

Lews Therin causing the Breaking, doesn't make him a darkfriend does it?

 

Are you still accusing Lews Therin with causing the breaking?  Havent we been over this?

[BrainFireBob]

DF?  I don't think so. Obstinately stupid. You bet.

Then we would have a bunch of crazy women running around as well.

 

Bah. We did anyway. Who'd notice?

[Jonn]

Latra was cinsumed by the power she held and felt all-mighty. She thought waiting and "specific" sa'angreal could save her. Even when reality hit her between the eyes she refused to see sense in LT's plan. Therefore I do not think she was a darkfriend, simply shallow and selfish.

 

I still don't see where you are getting any of these descriptions of Latra from.

 

You're projecting.

 

Latra was cinsumed by the power she held and felt all-mighty

 

...simply shallow and selfish.

 

There is nothing out there to support these conclusions. It's all made up from prejudiced views of women with power who oppose a position supported by men of power.

 

Bob:

 

You would need more than 13 linked to penetrate Shayol Ghul and there's still no guarantee that the counter-stroke wouldn't taint both halves of the power.

 

Also, we do not know if the access keys were truly lost at that point.

 

Evidence suggests that even as Lews Therin conducted his operation, Latra's cadre was still on the hunt for the keys. Why I think this? The keys were recovered and ended up in the hands of that Aiel headed to the Waste. After the Strike at Shayol Ghul, the Shadow didn't automatically just relinquish the lands they had conquered. The fighting continued afterward. Logic would tell us that despite Lews Therin's "victory" at Shayol ghul, Latra's people were still determined to smuggle the keys out and away from the Shadow's hands.

 

And they succeeded.

 

One can see that if Latra had agreed to go with Lews Therin and saidar was tainted as well...the world would have been destroyed utterly. Both saidin and saidar tainted...all of the channelers mad and on a rampage?

 

No way does the world survive that.

 

So as much as people would like to give that much credit to Lews Therin for "buying 3000 years" for the world, they should give just as much credit to Latra for fatefully removing saidar from the powers arrayed against the immediate survival of the world at the time.

 

 

[BrainFireBob]

Once again, facts are made up to suit theories, instead of doing things properly.

 

1) LTT was not "only able to scrape up 100 channellers."

 

LTT had 113 young men he could trust to take place in the Strike in absolute secrecy. That is not a limitation of his support. In addition to all his supporters, he had an organized group of 113 rabid followers whose discretion he could count on. Nowhere does it say that that was all he could call upon, merely that they were young, fierce, organized, and hardline dedicated to the man personally.

 

2) The OP brought up the DF question, but I'm not aware that anyone seriously argued that she was a DF for stalling. Most have stipulated that she erred but was most probably not a DF, therefore this is not the noble Jonn defending the besmirched Latra against those labelling her a DF.

 

3) If Jonn referred to his BWB, he would realize that LPD's last attempt to retrieve the access keys was stated to have failed. He is assuming that they kept trying and retrieved the access keys, ignoring the lack of evidence that it was the same people because it suits his theory that it was them. We don't know how two of the keys were recovered, or even how the one in the Panarch's palace was broken. We do know that they were recovered by the point of the Aiel departure.

 

Also, a general critique:

 

Joumin's grandfather was 16 when the Strike occured. Joumin was 60 when he left Paarin Disen with the objects of power. Minimum, it was 73 years after the Strike that the scene took place in. Minimum. *We*, and the 3rd Age, recognize the Strike as ending the war. LPD's title is ample evidence that it was not scene as such at the time.

 

Therefore, society retained a fair amount of cohesion about a century into the Breaking. Why does this surprise everyone? We're told a goodly part held together for a goodly long time, after all. Perhaps the Aiel departure from Paarin Disen marked the "end of civilization," the destruction of the last remaining bastion of civilization. Perhaps that is why the reference to Tzora mattered. Maybe it was the second-to-last. We are repeatedly told that the fighting continued until survival became too high a priority.

[Jonn]

Secondly, just because his actions led to the Breaking, doesn't mean it's totally Lews Therin's fault now does it?

 

Exactly my point. In which I quoted you as saying he was at fault, and in a follow up that he was not.  Which is it?  Shifting blame, which I pointed out, should be laid at the shadow's feet, is exactly what you've been doing.

 

the original question is: Was Latra a Darkfriend?

 

People then took that as a cue to assign blame for how the Strike at Shayol Ghul turned out.

 

Fact is, assigning blame isn't really the same as proving whether or not Latra was a Darkfriend.

 

The context then applied to what I said about whether or not to blame Lews Therin or Rand for the mistakes or mishaps they've committed.

 

It's irrelevant.

 

Well, I'm not comparing Bush to LTT or Decume.  That's a bit different, but I do see your point.  Which.. only backs up my point.  So, you are agreeing, in fact, that LTT wasnt to blame for the outcome of the Strike at Shayol Ghul?  So, no more shifting blame to LTT for the events and not all parties involved?  I.E.  The Shadow.  ;)

 

Lews Therin causing the Breaking, doesn't make him a darkfriend does it?

 

So, being a darkfriend doesn't necessarily have anything to do with causing the Breaking.

 

Latra couldn't know that her opposition would lead to the Breaking any more than Lews Therin could know.

 

I do know that if she was a Darkfriend, the Shadow would have long expected Lews Therin's attack on Shayol Ghul and it would have failed even before they could get to the tainting of saidin.

 

That's why I think it's pointless to rant about who is more at fault for the Breaking.

 

All of the antagonism towards Latra is made up, a projection.

 

We don't know anything about her personality to come to these conclusions, and if you want to say actions speak louder, or inaction for that matter...Lews Therin's approach towards things is the much more direct of routes towards what ended up being the Breaking, but we think all kinds of good things about him.

 

If this is all in response to my post, first remember, in none of my posts did I blame Decume for the breaking.  So, alot of what you wrote in response to my post has no relevence to what I challenged you to provide.  Please dont assume that I blame Decume, I dont.  I blame the Shadow.  It's a direct result of the DO's hold on the world.  The Light used the tools that they had available to try and overcome, the result was unforseen.  The main goal was accomplished with collateral damage occuring.  Which goes to say that LTT was not responsible either.  The direct result of the DO's influence, i.e. his counterstrike, was the taint.  Which caused the breaking.  ;)

 

Lews Therin causing the Breaking, doesn't make him a darkfriend does it?

 

Are you still accusing Lews Therin with causing the breaking?  Havent we been over this?

 

Can we please keep things in context? Lews Therin is as responsible for the Breaking as anyone can possibly be.

Latra, it can be argued, could also be as responsible for the events leading to the Breaking as Lews Therin-

 

-BUT

 

Neither of them are totally at fault.

 

You see the distinction?

 

In a round about way, yes, the Shadow is at fault for the Breaking and I'm actually kind of thinking that they don't mind being responsible, but in terms of immediate responsibility for the Breaking...They simply aren't.

 

They had no idea about the Choedan kal, or at least that they had them in their possession territorially.

 

The seemed completely surprised by Lews Therin's strike on Shayol Ghul, so they pretty much didn't have a clue that the Breaking was coming.

 

The taint only came because Lews Therin surprised the Dark One and the Dark One struck out at the last moment.

 

So, what came first, the egg or the Shadow?

 

No evidence to suggest that the Shadow wanted to Break the world in that manner at the time, so it's a bit of a stretch to simply say that they are at fault for the Breaking when we know it's much more complex an issue than that.

 

AND THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

 

It's like saying that the Nazi's are at fault for WWII. How easy is it to say that? Too easy. Too simplistic. There's more to it than just that.

 

Same goes for placing square blame on Latra and absolving Lews Therin at the same time.

 

Everyone played their part in order for Hamlet to meet his fate. Ophelia will always drown in the brook and Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are still dead. What's the point in elaborating why, or trying to say how Hamlet should have done this or the Queen should have done that or ponder whether or not that really was the ghost of Hamlet's father?

 

That's the way it was written and you can't add to the script otherwise it's not the same play, is it?

[BrainFireBob]

Problem with blaming LTT for the Breaking is the "He can do that?" argument- it was absolutely not on the radar. The actual fear of what would happen with LTT's plan proved absolutely, completely, and indisputably false- even with the Sealing done not quite right, reality didn't unravel.

 

As to the rest- the Forsaken were highly aware of the CK. This we have from in-series, the BWB "author" speculates, but it is discussed when Cyndane reveals Rand has two access keys- "only someone from their own Age could understand the sheer terror they had engendered." Meaning the Forsaken were 100% aware of what they had when they captured the CK- they just didn't know that they'd also over-run the area where the keys were being made. That's the part they didn't know.

[Jonn]

Once again, facts are made up to suit theories, instead of doing things properly.

 

1) LTT was not "only able to scrape up 100 channellers."

 

LTT had 113 young men he could trust to take place in the Strike in absolute secrecy. That is not a limitation of his support. In addition to all his supporters, he had an organized group of 113 rabid followers whose discretion he could count on. Nowhere does it say that that was all he could call upon, merely that they were young, fierce, organized, and hardline dedicated to the man personally.

 

2) The OP brought up the DF question, but I'm not aware that anyone seriously argued that she was a DF for stalling. Most have stipulated that she erred but was most probably not a DF, therefore this is not the noble Jonn defending the besmirched Latra against those labelling her a DF.

 

3) If Jonn referred to his BWB, he would realize that LPD's last attempt to retrieve the access keys was stated to have failed. He is assuming that they kept trying and retrieved the access keys, ignoring the lack of evidence that it was the same people because it suits his theory that it was them. We don't know how two of the keys were recovered, or even how the one in the Panarch's palace was broken. We do know that they were recovered by the point of the Aiel departure.

 

Also, a general critique:

 

Joumin's grandfather was 16 when the Strike occured. Joumin was 60 when he left Paarin Disen with the objects of power. Minimum, it was 73 years after the Strike that the scene took place in. Minimum. *We*, and the 3rd Age, recognize the Strike as ending the war. LPD's title is ample evidence that it was not scene as such at the time.

 

Therefore, society retained a fair amount of cohesion about a century into the Breaking. Why does this surprise everyone? We're told a goodly part held together for a goodly long time, after all. Perhaps the Aiel departure from Paarin Disen marked the "end of civilization," the destruction of the last remaining bastion of civilization. Perhaps that is why the reference to Tzora mattered. Maybe it was the second-to-last. We are repeatedly told that the fighting continued until survival became too high a priority.

 

First you misquoted me. I said "about 100 channelers", or around, or...something like that.

I know there were a hundred and thirteen, if you want to nitpick at that. The second part you would like to discard is that all of the most trusted of the Hall, at the time, knew Lews Therin's proposed plan, so it wasn't a need for secrecy that limited the numbers he brought, it was reliability and capability that was more paramount.

The secrecy became important when it came to the actual details of the strike, particularly when.

 

Which strikes me as necessary so as to keep the opposition from stopping them from going through with such a risky plan.

 

And when you mention that Latra's "last attempt" was a failure, it could well be referring to her group's latest or most recent attempt as in:

 

"Last time we tried to go to dinner there, we failed to get a reservation, so we ended up going somewhere else to eat."

 

Doesn't mean that the remaining Aes Sedai didn't keep trying to recover the keys, which was Latra Posae's priority action, and as we all know, she was in action for 40 years after the Breaking occurred, so I would think that her priority remained a priority during that time.

 

It's simply logic.

 

As for me defending Latra. I'm defending a position, which is actually an opposition to the common cavalier attitude towards female characters in the series.

It's boring.

Oh, the women in the series are stupid and petty and a bunch of overbearing ninnies...blah blah blah.

They are characters and they have flaws. Same as any male character does, yet the double standard applies that when a man has character flaws, it's amusing, or c'est la vie.

 

Take Perrin for instance. Ask your everyday person here why his character has gone awry lately, and most will probably lay the blame at Faile.

 

It's so old, this way of thinking. Come up with something new why don't you. Try on some perspective every now and then.

 

It's so evident that there's a lack of perspective when a character that is never mentioned in the main storyline who happens to be a female character is IMMEDIATELY labeled as a shrew just because she had an opposing position to a male character.

 

It insults my intelligence. There's nuance and variables that we don't know and can't know, so we make it up.

And that which we make up tells us a lot more about ourselves than it does about the characters we are trying to portray in whatever light we choose.

 

What does my stance say about me? I respect women enough to know that they are no more foolish overall than any man who has ever blundered in his life. So, why should I take exception?

 

Women deserve more respect than that.

 

Every little offhand sexist remark or attitude displayed. Every little slight, and "of course", just adds up and keeps adding up.

I really doubt that RJ was writing these characters in such a way so as to perpetuate these shameful stereotypes of women. He went out of his way to present us with a world where women have more power and self-determination than our own world. He's written several strong female characters and given us a variety of personalities, never sparing us from the negatives of these individual characters. He's dedicated his work many times to his editor, a woman who happens to be his wife, and who undoubtedly has her own voice in the series.

 

Yet time and again, we're hearing the same people's sour notes on the series and a big part of that is this misogynist tone that permeates the criticism of the plot of the series.

 

Am I immune to reacting in a similar manner? No. I do try to be as even as I can be about it, and I'm not just pushing this as some crusade here on this board. I think it's demeaning to men as well, to have to be saturated all the time by this fake war of the sexes.

 

 

[BrainFireBob]

Jonn, you whooshed yourself.

 

I was responding to your own statement in this thread- as well as other's- that LTT only had 100 supporters. No, he had 113 pre-organzied personally loyal fanatics he could trust to keep the Strike secret.

 

His plan wasn't secret, his launching of the Strike was.

 

As to your attempt to re-cast me as a misogynist: False. Ridiculously so. How long of not reading what I wrote did it take to come up with? Because LPD did in fact dig in her heels when it was no longer a viable option, for no reason, forcing LTT to act without sanction of the Hall. This is ridiculous, no question. It is not misogyny to say so- but it is misanthropic to claim it was all LTT and that LPD was blameless.

 

You have a problem with how many view the female characters? Well, that's allright. Pick a character to defend where it is solely bias, and absolutely not one where it's a valid criticism.

[Elgee]

Can anyone tell me where to get hold of A Strike on SG? I presume people are basing their opinions of Latra Posae on that, so I would like to read it before commenting.

 

Jonn, thank you - you've said exactly what I have perceived on these boards, but haven't had the eloquence to say.

[Jonn]

I never said Latra Posae was blameless.

 

I've been saying that she doesn't deserve to be cast as the sole villain in this situation. She played her part and so did Lews Therin.

 

I've been saying that it is pointless to lay these base accusations on her character when really really know nothing about her character besides her actions and we should all be aware that even the best intentioned people can act horribly.

 

BUT, I do think it is valid to see that she was after all considered as important to the Light after Lews Therin killed himself, as Lews Therin was leading up to the Strike on Shayol Ghul.

 

If we're fair about it.

 

But still we get the parade of people who are more interested in making their point than in being fair.

 

People tend to interchange neutrality with fairness and they ought not to.

 

Neutrality and fairness don't always go hand in hand. Sometimes one gets the feeling that neutrality doesn't really exist. So to me, fairness is best.

 

You'll find most people are fair to Lews Therin about the Breaking, even though he was much more than just involved in the result.

 

Why not be fair to Latra for having valid misgivings?

 

I'm pretty sure she wasn't feeling very vindicated having lost all of those Aes Sedai, including Lews Therin, to that ill-fated mission, even less so in the wake of the taint.

 

And Bob, I absolutely do think that Latra should be defended. When people make character assumptions about someone without knowing the circumstances or their perspective on the matter of their actions, it simply isn't fair.

 

One of the pet arguments people make about Latra is how she's this evil shrew who got all of the women to go against Lews Therin...implying that she did so just because he was a man.

 

Now where does that come from?

 

Of course not EVERY woman was against Lews Therin. And of course not every man was for Lews Therin's plan. She got every woman strong enough to participate in the sealing circle to abstain from that operation.

 

I don't jump to the conclusion that she bullied them all into it either. These women had to have had their own misgivings in order to agree with Latra. It says something in that all of the strongest females refused. People should ask the question: Why did they ALL agree with Latra Posae Decume?

 

They could think for themselves.

 

Out of hundreds of female Aes Sedai, they couldn't convince half a dozen strong enough to form the circle?

 

Could it actually be that his plan was just seen as too risky?

 

You see Bob, the misogynist views permeate a lot of how we go about examining characters. Lews Therin is a man and central to the storyline. Latra Posae, not central to the story, and a woman.

YET we see many here more willing to place the blame on her than they are to put responsibility on Lews Therin's shoulders for the result of his actions.

 

There are a million excuses as to why Lews Therin shouldn't have waited to strike, and next to no justification acceptable as to why Latra Posae would perhaps have been convinced that they should continue fighting while there is still even a little bit of field to fight on.

 

Maybe they were both right and both wrong.

Maybe one bad decision balanced another, and one failure produced a success. One side pushing while the other pulls...and on and on, struggling even as they work together.

 

That's how it works isn't it?

 

So what if one side just gives in?

 

Latra had to oppose Lews Therin. It was meant to be. There's no point in wishing it were different.

 

My sister used to tell me that she wished she had never met her ex-husband, that he ruined her life and caused so much pain to her, but then she stops and says that she can't picture changing things though, no matter how she suffered because out of that pain came her son. I agree with her because my nephew is one of the most wonderful people I have ever known and I can't think of a single thing I'd change about him.

The boy changed her life too. Got her on track, made her more focused, gave her drive. So, a man she curses to this day, ended up providing her with all she truly cares for in this life...and he will grow to become a man as well.

 

It's kind of bittersweet how that works out.

 

So the point is...Let it go.

[Mr Ares]

Can anyone tell me where to get hold of A Strike on SG? I presume people are basing their opinions of Latra Posae on that, so I would like to read it before commenting.

Try this: http://home.wanadoo.nl/nynaeve/shayolguhl.html

 

One thing I would like to point out is that, like Jonn is saying, some people are just making stuff up about LPD's motivations. SaSG tells us what she did, but not why. Fear can be a powerful motivator. It could just as easily be that she opposed LTT's plan through fear of the consequences rather than any desire on her part for political gain. To state as fact that what LPD did was done for whatever reason you prefer is simply wrong.

[Mysterious]

I've copied a summary from encyclopdia-wot:

 

The Strike at Shayol Ghul

   

 

Summary

The Strike at Shayol Ghul

 

by Jorille Mondevin, Royal Historian to the Court of Her Most Illuminated Majesty, Ethenielle Kirukon Materasu, By the Blessing of the Light, Queen of Kandor, Protector of the Land, Shield of the North, High Seat of House Materasu.

 

It is based on a partial copy of a work dating from the First Century AB.

 

After the creation of the Bore fifty to one hundred years passed before the actual beginning of the War of the Shadow. During the first three years the Shadow made great gains and large parts of the world fell. Much of what had been lost was retaken over the next four years, but after a yearlong stalemate the Shadow began to advance again.

 

There were two plans for ending the war. The first, proposed by Lews Therin, was to seal the Bore with seven cuendillar Seals utilizing a circle of seven female and six male Aes Sedai. The second plan was to use two huge sa'angreal, one attuned to saidin and one to saidar, to destroy the Shadow's forces and erect a barrier around Shayol Ghul until there was a safe method to permanently seal the Bore. The giant statue sa'angreal were so powerful that using them required special control statue ter'angreal which were assembled in an area far removed.

 

One of the Aes Sedai leaders, Latra Posae Decume, convinced all the strongest female Aes Sedai that Lews Therin's plan was too dangerous. Since they would not participate in the circle his plan was nullified.

 

Just as the giant statue sa'angreal were completed, Sammael attacked and overran the region where the control statue ter'angreal were being made and they were lost. Armies commanded by Demandred and Be'lal then attacked the regions where the giant statue sa'angreal were built.

 

Lews Therin convinced a group of powerful young male Aes Sedai to carry out the attack at Shayol Ghul without the aid of women. The 113 men managed to seal the Bore also trapping the thirteen Forsaken, but the 68 survivors went insane instantly and hundreds more male Aes Sedai followed.

 

Before her death during the Breaking, Latra Posae apparently rose to a prominence rivaling that of Lews Therin. During the fighting against the Shadowsworn she gained the name Shadar Nor which, in the Old Tongue, means "Cutter of the Shadow" or perhaps "Slicer of the Shadow."

 

 

Now let us make this very clear: Everybody is talking in hypotheticals of the situation in this thread. We don't have definitive evidence one way or another about the motivations for Latra's actions other than it was too dangerous. But what we do know is this:

 

1. Latra's reasons for opposing the plan was because it was too dangerous

2. The Light was going to lose the War in six months if they did not do something

3. The access keys for the giant sa'angreal were lost

 

 

I personally base all of Latra's actions and motivations due to the Karetheon Cycle (Dragon Prophecies). I believe that her actions were justified to her because she became aware of a Fortelling (that would later become known as the Dragon Prophecies) of what would happen if the Strike were to go ahead and what would happen to the world as a result.

 

I have no evidence to back this up.

 

But,

 

This is the only context of which I can find that her actions were justified. We know from the series that various characters stumble across prophecies, fortelling, dreams etc. and try with all their might to avoid them or to stop them happening at all. Various examples: Mat - marrying the Daughter of Nine Moons, Min - trying to save Rand, Perrin - trying to save the Tinker woman, Egwene - accepting help from a Seanchan woman.

 

Why do I find her actions were justified only within this context?

 

The quote: "The Union! United! Will never be defeated!"

 

The Fateful Concord was an abomination.

IT WAS AN ABOMINATION

 

She divided the Aes Sedai when they needed to be united and strong.

 

Worse: she turned female Aes Sedai against the male Aes Sedai. RJ himself said that only male and female channelers working together can they make truly wondrous things happen.

 

They were 6 months from ultimate annihilation!

 

Whatever plan and action they take up from here on in would be the last throw of the dice.

 

THAT'S IT. NO TIME FOR ANYTHING ELSE.

 

No matter what rebuttals can be posted, these are the facts. This was the ramifications from the result of her actions. If we see her actions through the context that she had knowledge of sure failure for Lews Therin and the Breaking of the world, then she is justified. But with True Fortellings we have seen no matter what is done, it still becomes true.

 

If her actions weren't within this context, then with the Shadow, she bears most responsibility of the Breaking.

 

In war: You act or die. Lews Therin acted. He morally bears no responsibility of what happens after because he acted.

 

Latra's actions were not in tune with the principles of conducting a successful war

 

The United States Armed Forces use the following nine principles of war in training their officers:

 

Mass

Bring decisive force to bear at critical times and places.

 

Objective

Define a decisive and attainable objective for every military operation.

 

Offensive

Seize, retain, and exploit the initiative.

 

Surprise

Otherwise known as "Audacity"; Strike the enemy at a time and/or place and in a manner for which he is unprepared.

 

Economy of Force

Allocate minimum essential combat power to secondary efforts.

 

Maneuver

Place the enemy in a position of disadvantage through the flexible application of combat power.

 

Unity of Command

For every objective, there must be a unified effort and one person responsible for command decisions.

 

Security

Never permit the enemy to acquire an unexpected advantage.

 

Simplicity

Prepare clear, uncomplicated plans and clear, concise orders. The principle recognizes that complex plans and orders are more likely to be misunderstood or to fall-apart as soon as something goes wrong.

 

Lews Therin's Strike had all of these principles inherent within his plan. When all other options were lost, not following this plan would have been criminal.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[muddasssir]

hi'

whenever i open my big mouth i get bitten but that never stopped me in past so now will be no different see i m currently re reading the series so i have got a different  opinion    remember egwene trying to penetrate shield around callandor it was a continuous wall parts of which she could identify while others she didn't so here is what i think that 113 companions were like 113 strong bulls tied to ropes of saidin but a sly one can slip through and leave its refuse in the pool of saidin behind them but 13 male and female aes sedais together would have been like that wall in egwene's dream impenetrable so in my humble opinion if FC hadn't taken place we would have got no story and there was no chance of saidar getting tainted so my vote LPD was a df or worst because she was the one who refused to join LTT

[BrainFireBob]

Jonn-

 

1) Stop projecting modern ideas of sexism. LPD, by creating the Fateful Concord, introduced a sexual split among Aes Sedai. We are flatly told this. She created an uneven sexual distinction. She is not a poor oppressed woman.

 

2) There is nothing misogynist in the following analysis:

 

We know, and LPD knew, that the Light was six months from absolute, total defeat.

 

The access keys were lost. Why she chose not to endorse LTT's plan is irrelevant. We know she did, and we know she did so knowing that defeat was inevitable. There is no need to speculate on her motivations, because this is unjustifiable. We know she made that choice.

 

It is speculative to claim that her actions were necessary to the Pattern, or caused by Foretelling, and that is frankly a last straw Deus ex machina claim. It is equally possible that LPD's intransigence is what caused the Pattern to begin giving the Karaetheon Cycle.

 

This is not misogynist in any way- she made this choice with this information. She chose absolute dissolution of the Light over backing LTT's last chance to save the world.

 

Now, as to LTT and the Breaking, it's not a male favoritism argument to "absolve him of blame."

 

If reality had torn in some way because of the Sealing, he'd be accountable- that was the foreseeable and foreseen risk he took in launching the Strike.  Turns out, he was right- it wasn't a concern, but he couldn't know that.

 

The Breaking was absolutely and totally non-foreseeable. It was completely outside his control, and no-one could have foreseen it in any way.. The Breaking is a tragedy his actions opened the door to, but no-one could have foreseen that door even existed, much less opened on what it did.

 

LPD caused her own refusal to act when action became the only alternative. LTT did not control the Breaking. Consequently, she is responsible for consequences in a way he is not. There is no misogyny there, only clear-eyed reason.

 

And for what it's worth, clearing your mind isn't about Stay Puff'd, and Ray did not clear his mind. He tried to find something harmless. Your ego-centric assumptions about other people's motivations and thought processes are false. Some people work that way, not all do.

[Valinthros]

Can we please keep things in context? Lews Therin is as responsible forthe Breaking as anyone can possibly be.

Latra, it can be argued, could also be as responsible for the events leading to the Breaking as Lews Therin-

 

-BUT

 

Neither of them are totally at fault.

 

You see the distinction?

 

In a round about way, yes, the Shadow is at fault for the Breaking and I'm actually kind of thinking that they don't mind being responsible, but in terms of immediate responsibility for the Breaking...They simply aren't.

 

They had no idea about the Choedan kal, or at least that they had them in their possession territorially.

 

The seemed completely surprised by Lews Therin's strike on Shayol Ghul, so they pretty much didn't have a clue that the Breaking was coming.

 

The taint only came because Lews Therin surprised the Dark One and the Dark One struck out at the last moment.

 

So, what came first, the egg or the Shadow?

 

No evidence to suggest that the Shadow wanted to Break the world in that manner at the time, so it's a bit of a stretch to simply say that they are at fault for the Breaking when we know it's much more complex an issue than that.

 

AND THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

 

It's like saying that the Nazi's are at fault for WWII. How easy is it to say that? Too easy. Too simplistic. There's more to it than just that.

 

Same goes for placing square blame on Latra and absolving Lews Therin at the same time.

 

Everyone played their part in order for Hamlet to meet his fate. Ophelia will always drown in the brook and Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are still dead. What's the point in elaborating why, or trying to say how Hamlet should have done this or the Queen should have done that or ponder whether or not that really was the ghost of Hamlet's father?

 

That's the way it was written and you can't add to the script otherwise it's not the same play, is it?

 

Thank you for adressing all of my responses....<end sarcasm>  Seriously, are you going to adress those?  And, again, what is your stance?  You keep saying that you never said she was innocent, however you say that she is not to blame for the breaking in other posts... so which is it?  Do you concede the point?

 

As for Lews Therin, same question, concede?

 

You seem to be missing some information.  First, the Forsaken knew full well about the CK.  Second, as to blame, that's relative now isnt it?  If I told you that if you posted in here, that I would pick apart your post, are you in fact at fault for posting?  *chuckle*

 

Also, you're assuming that they did not know about the strike entirely.  I would have to say that is incorrect.  It makes perfect sense that since it was open to the assembly just what LTT planned to do, it was also whispered in other places.  Which goes to say that the shadow pretty much knew his plan, just like they knew about the CK.  What they did not know was WHEN.  Which is apparent in the way that LTT caught them.  Luck was with the Light on that account.  Assuming that the shadow is completely unaware of large plans like the Strike doesnt make sense to me.

 

Could you explain to me what you mean by : "The seemed completely surprised by Lews Therin's strike on Shayol Ghul, so they pretty much didn't have a clue that the Breaking was coming."

 

What I pretty much got from that is if the strike happens so then does the breaking.  Like a predetermined thing.  If the shadow knew the strike was coming, therefore they would know that the breaking was too...  The breaking wasnt even named at that point.  WTH are you trying to say John?

 

 

So, let's be Frank.  Hi Frank, I'm Frank.

The Breaking in FACT was a direct result of the Counterstroke from the DO.  So, the direct cause of the breaking was in fact the DO.  Because of his intentional taint on saidin.  He HAD to know exactly what he was doing.  The DO said, "Oh I know, TAINT the male half of the source!!!"  Bam, done.  Blame the DO, it's only logical.  And in saying that, the shadow as a whole is to blame.  Refute intent John, you cant.

 

As BFB stated, LTT would definitely be held accountable had his actions produced the rift that was feared.  It did not.  The consequences therefore were unforseen, as in LTT had no clue this would happen.  You drove your car to the store, someone rear ended you at a stop sign.  Who's to blame?  In your opinion you should pay for the damage on their car, because you drove to the store.  Assigning blame to LTT is exactly what the shadow's been doing since the breaking.  I'm pretty sure they're not the only one's, but that's a moot point.  Anyhow, refute that it's still his fault with plausable evidence to the contrary and I'll make sure you rear end you on the way to the grocery store.  ;)

 

Leave the Nazzi's out of this, and Hamlet for that matter.  We're not talking about them.  We're talking about WOT.  ;)

 

[Silver]

To be fair, he's just using Hamlet and Nazi's as an example in a similar manner to you using the car example.

 

Oh, and hind sight is 20/20. Plus it's impossible to know what really happened or any true intentions. Unless RJ had some writings from their POVs then all your guesses are just that. Saying Latra is a power hungry politician is even more of a stretch since it's all based on 2nd or 3rd hand information (BWB isn't the be all and  end all things).

 

For me it's like 2 parents of a poor family deciding what to do with the last of their money. Mom wants to save and eke out what they can. Dad wants to go to the poker tables. If he wins, he turns out to be a genius, if he doesn't, he's an ass.

[Mysterious]

Yes Bob I know it's a stretch that the Prophecies were the cause of her motivations. As I said it's my belief of her motivations. I don't have any evidence and your counter statement quite easily nullifies my belief.

 

I was perusing through The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time were I came across this little tidbit:

 

Latra Posae’s opposition to the Dragon’s plan continued despite these events, and the female Aes Sedai—perhaps in the manner of animals that, seeing a boulder rushing downhill, freeze in the path of destruction—held to their pledge, making the circle impossible. Lews Therin plainly knew it would be impossible to hold the huge sa’angreal long enough for the access ter’angreal to be smuggled out, even if the smuggling were successful. In his view, there was no longer any choice, and he resolved to carry out his initial plan without the women.

 

Unknown to anyone at this point, all of the agents responsible for recovering the ter’angreal had been caught and killed, and the artifacts were scattered widely across areas held for the Shadow. News of this tragedy was not received until well after events had far outrun anyone’s plans.

 

 

Take what you want of it as you will.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Bob T Dwarf]

Why not be fair to Latra for having valid misgivings?

 

Now, THERE is sexism for you.  In your zeal to be fair to what you perceive as poor oppressed womankind, you state that her misgivings were valid when all the evidence the author supplied shows that her misgivings were not valid.  How exactly does Latra's sex make her misgivings valid?

 

My opinion of her actions would be the same if those actions had come from anyone.  Male or female.  Human, Hobbit, Elf, Klingon, Ogier or even my personal favorite, Dwarf.

 

BFB and Mysterious have done an admirable job of laying out the facts as the author gave them to us.  Based on those facts, the person in opposition to Sealing the Bore with seven female and six male Aes Sedai was in error.  Misgiving became fear.  Fear overcame reason and judgement.  Fear became obstinacy.  Obstinacy persisted in the face of imminent destruction.

[Valinthros]

To be fair, he's just using Hamlet and Nazi's as an example in a similar manner to you using the car example.

 

If that's the case, then my point is further re-enforced by this.

 

Oh, and hind sight is 20/20. Plus it's impossible to know what really happened or any true intentions. Unless RJ had some writings from their POVs then all your guesses are just that. Saying Latra is a power hungry politician is even more of a stretch since it's all based on 2nd or 3rd hand information (BWB isn't the be all and  end all things).

 

To be fair, I NEVER accused Decume of anything.  I just wanted a solid stance from John.  Which I really havent gotten.  He keeps saying LTT is at fault, and then almost absolving.  Either he's at fault or he's not, in his opinion.  Point blank.  I blame the shadow for the breaking, more importantly the DO, for INTENTIONALLY tainting the source.

 

For me it's like 2 parents of a poor family deciding what to do with the last of their money. Mom wants to save and eke out what they can. Dad wants to go to the poker tables. If he wins, he turns out to be a genius, if he doesn't, he's an ass.

 

I wouldnt say that's quite right either.  In that instance, it's money, not the lives of millions.  It could be termed as a gamble, but in reality if you have but one chance...  I think you can fill in the blank.  Also, we dont know what LPD was doing at the time of the strike, we have no record of her actions, only her inaction.  I.E.  Nothing of her efforts to hold things together is evident at that exact time.  The end was imminent, and we dont know if she was trying to save anyone at that point.  Anyhow, to wrap up, no I dont think that's a good analogy.  No offense meant. 

 

[Silver]

Well it's the best analogy I could think up, and I prefer it over some others that were posted. Until somebody posts a better one, that's how I'm viewing it.