Was Latra Posae Decume a Darkfriend/Forsaken

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, equally, a failure to act at all, as Latra Posae advocated would have been at least 1000 times worse than what did happen.

 

LTT acted, and bad as it turned out, his action led to the lesser of two evils.

 

In fact, after the Strike on Shayol Ghul, those Aes Sedai remaining in a position to affect things positively proved to be total nits.  They abdicated all responsibility for a favorable outcome to some unknown future generation.

 

They eventually had in their possession:

Callandor;

At least one set of access keys;

The Horn of Valere.

 

According to the available record they failed to use any of them to save their world and their civilization.  They failed to use any of them to even mitigate the destruction.

 

They are the ones who condemned the world to 3000 years of warfare and suffering.  LTT was just a convenient scapegoat upon whom to hang all the blame for their stupidity and failure to act responsibly. 

 

"Waaaaa!  The men are going crazy!  We're doomed!  We're doomed!  Run away!  Run away!" just doesn't cut it.

[tube_ee]

If this is one replay of a never-ending battle between Light and Shadow, then the actions of everyone make sense.

 

Lews Therin Telamon and the Hundred Companions reseal the Bore, but imperfectly, setting the stage for the next phase in the fight. The backblast/counterstroke (it's unclear to me from the books whether this was an act of the Dark One, or an unintended consequence) taints the Power used, and the World Breaks, setting the conditions under which the next phase will unfold.

 

The Fateful Concord prevents women from taking part in the sealing. Whether the tainting is an act or an accident, it's logical to assume that any Power used in the resealing would have been tainted. This preserves half of the One Power and a guiding structure to ready the world for the next battle to come.

 

If you want to argue that a combined circle could have placed the Seals perfectly, and fully sealed the bore, then by my argument, this could not have happened, because a fully-sealed prison for the Dark One is not part of the Age to come. It's too soon. As Harid Fel put it, any Age where a Bore is drilled must have forgotten that it is even possible, let alone that it has happened before, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

 

Both Lews Therin Telamon and Latra Posae Decume were constrained by the Wheel of Time to act as they did.

 

Actually, they were constrained by the Author to act as they did, but widespread adoption of that attitude would end this website.  ;)

 

--Shannon

[Bob T Dwarf]

Indeed they were, and yes, it certainly would.

 

Leaving us to puzzle out what logical reasons the author could have had for having his characters act the way they did.  Arbitrarily having LTT fail, and Latra be obstinate because it simplifies the story, just doesn't mesh with Jordan's myth-with-roots-in-reality, there's-a-scientific-basis-for-everything ethos.

 

One of the unfortunate truths of the real world that is definitely echoed here is that the survivors write the history and those at the top-of-the-heap determine what gets included and what gets left out.  Naturally, the powerful ( Aes Sedai ) would emphasize LTT's failures and minimize their own.  Especially their failures of leadership and accountability.

[tube_ee]

Leaving us to puzzle out what logical reasons the author could have had for having his characters act the way they did.  Arbitrarily having LTT fail, and Latra be obstinate because it simplifies the story, just doesn't mesh with Jordan's myth-with-roots-in-reality, there's-a-scientific-basis-for-everything ethos.

 

Perhaps I was confusing...

 

What I meant was that there is (at least one!) an explanation that can resolve the actions of these characters within the fictional world and at the same time bring in the idea that their actions were also working for the furtherance of the story as a story.

 

Within the fantasy world presented in the books, we see the Wheel as an active force, (eg, ta'veren), so it's still within the bounds of "suspension of disbelief" to ascribe the apparent contradictions to the workings of the Wheel.

 

In a world where fate and time take an active role, and where themes are endlessly recycled through time, questions of free will become much more complicated. How free were Lews Therin Telamon and Latra Posae Decume to act? To what extent were their actions predetermined by the Wheel of Time?

 

The bit about "the Author" was sort of a sarcastic throwaway... can't help it... I'm just wired that way.

 

--Shannon

[Bob T Dwarf]

The bit about "the Author" was sort of a sarcastic throwaway... can't help it... I'm just wired that way.

 

Aint we all? ;)

 

I understood what you were saying.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yes history in WOT is cyclical, but no it's not like a record or CD.  It doesn't play the same notes in the same order every time it turns. ( IMNSHO  - ask anybody, I'm arrogant as well as sarcastic :D )

 

So, there's still plenty of room for free will.  Things just flow a little differently this time through - kinda like a jazz riff, never the same way twice.

 

As for Herrid Fel - he failed to account for the contrary illogic of human nature.  How many people died on Everest two years ago?  How many died last year?  Everybody thinks they're smarter, stronger, better, faster than the other guy.  They'll get it right - this time - because they're so sooper-dooper.

 

BTW - haven't seen you before tube_ee.  Welcome.  You give good posts  8)

[Jonn]

And, equally, a failure to act at all, as Latra Posae advocated would have been at least 1000 times worse than what did happen.

 

LTT acted, and bad as it turned out, his action led to the lesser of two evils.

 

In fact, after the Strike on Shayol Ghul, those Aes Sedai remaining in a position to affect things positively proved to be total nits.  They abdicated all responsibility for a favorable outcome to some unknown future generation.

 

They eventually had in their possession:

Callandor;

 

Must be used in concord with men and women together. No one would want to see what would happen if a madman got a hold of Callandor. Also, it was fortold that the Dragon would return and the Sword must be sealed away for him to herald his arrival.

 

So, Callandor is wisely, set aside.

 

At least one set of access keys;

 

Again, the purpose for their use gone after Lews Therin jumped the gun, and also again, the male half of no use.

 

Use of the female half would have drawn every remaining forsaken within a thousand miles like a beacon. Plus the sheer amount of Power wasn't to be trusted and could have been too dangerous to use period.

 

Again, foretelling might have played a role in deciding to send the keys off to Rhuidean.

 

The Horn of Valere.

 

We can't actually be sure when this was recovered, but once again, a powerful weapon, but usable by both Shadow and Light. The danger of it falling into enemy hands far outweighed its uses as a crutch in battle. And so, it was stowed away with the dragon banner and placed out of reach with the Green Man.

Or something like that. We can assume the reasons as to why the Horn was sealed away from everyone's grasp.

 

 

 

According to the available record they failed to use any of them to save their world and their civilization.  They failed to use any of them to even mitigate the destruction.

 

They are the ones who condemned the world to 3000 years of warfare and suffering.  LTT was just a convenient scapegoat upon whom to hang all the blame for their stupidity and failure to act responsibly. 

 

"Waaaaa!  The men are going crazy!  We're doomed!  We're doomed!  Run away!  Run away!" just doesn't cut it.

 

Fighting off the remaining forces of the Shadow and at the same time dealing with every male channeler destroying everything in sight might not have been the easiest thing to face as hands down the male Aes Sedai were more powerful than your average female Aes Sedai.

 

As is stated about Nynaeve's and Cadsuane's terangreal and angreal, they were designed for female Aes Sedai who had every hand turned against her.

 

Think of it this way and I'm not trying to be sexist:

 

What if all of the men in the world suddenly went insane and started killing everyone in sight? Only the females and children remained untouched by the psychological condition...Not the easiest situation to deal with now is it?

 

Could some of the women get it together and defend themselves? Probably, but the odds are certainly stacked against them in a major way.

 

Though insane, the men would still be physically stronger and faster on average than the women.

Honestly, I don't think it would look too good for the women.

 

Can't help but detect a misogynistic tone to your arguments. Notably your last remarks infer that the female Aes Sedai all just cried and did nothing to save the world when in reality they are probably responsible for saving enough of what they could to ensure a chance for the world 3000 years later.

 

Something Lews Therin didn't seem to contemplate in what I can only call the insanity of male bravado.

He basically drew up a suicide attack, pompously ignorant of the possibility that something could go terribly wrong (and it did) or the possibility that he might be killed in the attack as well, which would be equally disastrous. Turns out he in fact did take himself out of the picture, first by going mad then actually committing suicide.

 

Where was he 40 years after the sealing of the Bore? He was dead of course and Latra was still fighting, trying to buy time to set up his return.

 

It's pretty unfair to paint these Aes Sedai as dithering women who cry and throw up their hands helplessly whining about how rough their plight is because of men.

 

These Aes Sedai, male and female, left behind by Lews Therin to clean up his mess...They fought until they were all dead, and none who walked in the Hall of of Servants remained alive. And of course, the women had the worst of it.

 

But you know what, that makes it all the more poignant.

 

Stick to your belief that the women messed it all up if that makes the story better in your eyes.

I contend that both Latra and Lews Therin made major mistakes, but both also were great heroes. Tragic heroes, but still great.

 

They both have cool titles too. Shadow Cutter and The Dragon. Awesome.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Men continued to be useful for quite some time.

 

The Stone of Tear was built with the help of male channelers.  The Wards about Callandor were woven with both saidin and saidar.  The Eye of the World and the pure saidin it contained was constructed using both men and women.

 

The women took safeguards.  The male a'dam were constructed on Rand's side of the Aryth Ocean, after all.

 

So the contention that Callandor and the CK couldn't be used because men were unreliable won't wash.

 

Probably my biggest gripe with Jordan and the whole series is the utterly unrealistic and frankly ugly way with which he continually characterized women throughout the series.  Latra Posae and the women AS of the AoL is merely one of his ugliest and most unrealistic characterizations.

 

He painted a bunch of irresponsible dolts.  Nothing realistic about that.  If you find that misogynistic, take it up with  Jordan.  He's the one who wrote them that way.

[anamul]

Ok. I have come accross many ridiculous theory in this forum.

But I have never heard one such where people actually blame LTT????

 

Those who thinks LTT is or was at fault that time, needs to reread the series.

Even the people of WOT world, the present Aes sedai(most of them) wouldn't come up with such a far fetched allegation.

 

LTT made it worse??? U got to be kidding me.

 

It is because of LTT we even know Latra Posae Decume's name.Politics was her only motivation, not unlike Elaida.

 

What she did after was redemption. A fool realizing too late.

 

The WOT theme is clear..Men and Women needs to act together. I could never understand why not even a single one of the female agreed with LTT. What about his wife?

 

Sealing the dark one and the forsaken, was a stroke of brilliant in a desperate time. The light didn't have time to wait and see if Leonardo da vinci or Isac newton will get born and come up with some kind of complex theory and diagram.

 

I agree that Latrs Posae wasn't a dark friend. But that was because she was doing exactly what the DO wanted. Why recruite and make her doubt?

 

We are not being "Sexist" here. We are merely speculating. Latra was an arrogance opportunist and medocre to the last degree...there is no doubt about it.

 

Also we don't know a larger cronicle of time. The male didn't go insane instantly. They did in fact a lot of work before going mad.

 

And what we see now??? Is it Latra or EGY who came up with the cleaning Idea?

 

It is LTT again. Talk about being "Sexist", I don't see any Female Aes sedai coming up with the Idea.

 

Again and Again, disappointment. I am glad there wasn't anyone like Latra in Cady's company.

Imagin what would have happened if Nynave refused? Same thing again.

If out Darling Latra was here, she would certainly have refused to do so and more, she would have tried to stop it. Saying...oh u will break the world like a egg shell.

 

Was it less riskier? Why did Cady and Nynave agreed? Because they are not fools.

[DemandredFO]

He wrote a female dominated society, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Just look at our own society, it is only recently that women have got a modicum of equality.  Exceptions occur in every society though, so there will be some strong people of the opposite sex.  Jonn:  Yes, Lews Therin broke the world but I think that was preferable to waiting for the accessing and probably being utterly defeated by the shadow.  I think a broken world was preferable to a Wheel broken.  Yes the women cleaned up the bad result of Lews Therin's plan but they also demonized the male AS.  I haven't read the BWB so I'm going on what people say.

[Dreadlady]

What is the BWB?

[Jonn]

 

Look, I'm not a ultra-feminist, despite what some might think.

 

People have this strange idea that somehow Lews Therin is this saint and savior, that the disastrous results of his actions are totally forgivable in the context of the world not actually totally being destroyed.

 

The major theme in this series is that saviors and saints aren't necessarily saviors and saints. The things heroes do to become regarded as heroes is much more complicated than any removed observer can sit there and truly understand.

 

Is Rand a perfect person with no faults who doesn't make mistakes? No, obviously. Has he done amazing and significant things? Yes, but his triumphs do not erase his mistakes.

 

I'm not blaming Lews Therin. I'm not blaming Rand.

 

I'm pointing out that Latra Posae deserves the same benefit of context that Lews Therin gets. I think a lot of readers, many of them male I would guess, have a man-crush on Lews Therin, because he's a badass and a legend and all. Hey, I can see that.

But still he's flawed and he made mistakes. It makes no sense to me to place all of this hypothetical blame on Latra in order to make Lews Therin appear blameless.

 

We have no details on how things got to the point of the Fateful Concord.

 

I don't know where some people are getting this mock up situation where Lews Therin very politely pleads to the Hall to enact his plan and basically everyone in the Hall has become a woman and is sitting there with arms crossed staring him down like a nagging housewife.

 

For all we know, Lews Therin was a jerk about it, acting like a brat because he's the big leader and ta'veren and couldn't understand why these people and that woman won't just do as he asks...

 

But of course, the Dragon doesn't act like that, does he?

 

I mean, I certainly can't picture Rand acting like that...

 

The sexist tone I was talking about is when we are given a female figure of power and then marginalize her, turn her into a stubborn shrew whenever she disagrees with a man of power. Of course she's the problem.

 

I like how immediately people go for the comparison between Latra, a legendary female Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends, and Elaida, one of the worst villains in the series. What makes Elaida such a villain by the way is the fact that she isn't even aware that she's the villain.

 

We don't have the insight we need to make a character assessment of Latra besides the fact that she disagreed with Lews Therin about the execution of the War of Power. That's all we have.

Yet we have people who have already deemed her selfish, ambitious, manipulative...and have raised the question of whether or not she was a darkfriend even though she fought the Shadow to the death.

 

For all we know, she begged Lews Therin not to go, because rightly she feared that the Light would lose their greatest General and several of their most powerful Aes Sedai in a suicidally conceived assault.

 

For all we know, Lews Therin and Latra could have been great friends, because at the least they were respected colleagues on the same side after all. She may have wanted to block the attack in order to save her friends who would go because of desperation. A colder view would be that she saw it as a terrible waste to risk over a hundred of the strongest channelers the Light has on a crap shot.

 

But again, I speculate right?

 

I don't see the value in demonizing Latra any more than I see it as being worthwhile to blame Lews Therin for everything that went wrong.

 

[Blackrose]

not sure if its been mentions but Lews therins plan on sealing the bore with the seals was a risky plan as if the seals were done wrongly it would have possibly broken the bore wide open for Shai'tan to run around like a pansy he is.

 

thats why Latra posae wouldnt go with his plan and that he had to get his 100 companions.

 

Also after the bore was opened there did have 90 years until the war, but over the 90 years the land began to corrupt. for example people began getting depressed etc etc, thus leading towards the War and all the darkfriends who were already there.

[anamul]

As others stated earlier, there was no Choice but to act. LTT didn't have the luxury of time.

 

Latra couldn't have known what would happen, except the fact that LTT's plan was risky.For all we know if there was equal amount of Female with LTT, the outcome would have far more better.

 

So yeah, it become clear that what he did was the right thing to do and doing so he gave the light and himself(unknowingly) another chance to fight.

 

LTT was called Lord of the morning among other things. He was appointed leader for the light. At that age, when there was Real Aes Sedai, with all the knowledge of AOL, it is saying something.

 

LTT wasn't a leader by birth or political lobbying. He was a leadr by virtue. So yeah, he deserve to be taken seriously and being heard and not to mention loyality.Mainly he was very smart.Even the forsaken admits it. It is unlikely that he would have missed any vital point or the fact that he didn't think it through.

 

I don't know how other see it, but I can't see any merite in Latra's activity. On the contrary, it seems like she was trying to take political advantage of a drier situation.

 

It would have been nice if RJ gave us more details to go by. I am still confuse why on earth not a single women listened to LTT?

 

What about Illayne? Was she weaker or much lower in food chain to be taken seriously. Somehow I doubt it. Another question....Who was Illayne? We know so little about her, but so much about that slut Lanfear.

[Luckers]

I just don't see the point in blaming Latra any more than Lews Therin for the way things turned out.

 

The main reason i blame Latra Posae over Lews Therin is that her actions resulted from personal obstinancy. Her plan had failed, there were no others, and she still acted to sabotage Lews Therins--her arguments had merit in the beginning, but with all other possibilities exhausted then she was merely being obstinate, opposing because it wasn't her plan.

 

Both people may have caused disaster--Lew Therin did so through a final desperate attempt to save the world, Latra Posae through obstinancy in opposing her rival in the hall. Furthermore had she succeeded in stopping Lews Therin the Shadow would have won, and all would have been lost to darkness and chaos.

 

Thats more than enough reason to blame Latra Posae over Lews Therin.

 

Lews Therin is the reason the Breaking happened. I believe it's rather convenient for the people who even know about the Fateful Concord, to place blame on Latra.

 

I don't place blame on Latra Posae for that--oh, suggestively including women may have protected the link from the Dark One's counter-attack, but its too flimsy for real argument.

 

Latra Posae did however let her personal ambition stand in the way of what was best for the light. They were on the edge of total defeat, her plan had failed, and there were no other options--yet she still acted to sabotage Lews Therin's plans. That is disgusting.

 

Lews Therin may have been the reason the breaking happened, but he is also the reason the Light gained three thousand years to regroup from the edge of total defeat. Latra Posae tried to stop the latter, and that i do blame her for. And more than Lews Therin, for all the deaths suffered in the breaking.

 

The point is furthered by the fact that he could only get about a hundred to go with him. Like Luckers says, there were far more Aes Sedai than just 300 right? So then it can be said that the majority favored Latra's position.

 

It can't, actually. Lews Therin still held First Seat, therefore he still sustained a majority in the council. Furthermore favour had turned to his plan in the council, thats why Latra Posae was forced to approach the individual women strong enough to take part in the plan.

 

The Aes Sedai were spread in holding of the shadow--there was a war on, remember. The idea of the Strike was never to win, only to win through to Shayoul Ghoul. The Hundred Companions worked that purpose, and since the strong women wouldn't join in there was no need to involve others.

 

Also, we aren't exactly sure when the keys were recovered are we? We know they ended up in the caravan with the Aiel, but I honestly can't see the keys falling into the Shadow's possession for long without them figuring out what they are and using them against he Light. That leads me to suspect that the Light recovered the keys before the Shadow even knew they had them, and I can't say that years could go by without them coming across that information. That's what leads me to believe that the keys were tragically recovered just shortly after Lews Therin's strike on Shayol Ghul.

 

We know for a fact that the Shadow did not know the Keys were present in their land. With the sealing they hardly had reason to be searching door to door for obscure, insanely powerful access keys.

 

The Fateful Concord prevents women from taking part in the sealing. Whether the tainting is an act or an accident, it's logical to assume that any Power used in the resealing would have been tainted. This preserves half of the One Power and a guiding structure to ready the world for the next battle to come.

 

Not quite. There is a strong theme that RJ has pushed that when men and women work together they are stronger, more secure. A complete circle. Suggestively, male and female strength may have protected each other, being complete, not leaving an opening for the Dark One to strike at.

 

 

[Snowy Dawn]

``They abdicated all responsibility for a favorable outcome to some unknown future generation.''

 

`What good is your foretelling, if you cannot tell us when?' (From the argument in the Hall of the Servants going on when the Aiel are sent off with the wagons loaded with objects of the power and Chora cuttings.] They were acting on a foretelling in doing this. It appears that they constructed both the Stone and the Eye of the World on the basis of the same. Given the sacrifice required to construct the Eye of the World, they were doing a bit more than just abdicating responsibility.

[Jonn]

I don't buy the idea that Latra disagreed with Lews Therin for the sake of disagreement.

 

What is there to gain politically in sabotaging the great General of the Light when the world is on the brink?

 

What can you gain if you lose?

 

She obviously still had hope that she and her party could recover the keys, which they eventually did.

 

Look, I think it's a case of putting a little too much into a character that we have no character notes on.

 

We know what she did, but we have no idea what her true motivations were, but judging by the fact that she fought the Shadow for years and years after the Breaking began, we can say that she definitely did not oppose Lews Therin simply because of greed or ambition.

 

She had a will to fight the Shadow. The disagreement was about the execution of that will.

 

You can choose to dislike her stance, because after all she did oppose the Dragon, the figure whom the series revolves around. Remember though how this series is being presented to us. It's an ensemble. Heroes disagree with other heroes. Rand often laments how people don't treat him the way he would expect that hero in the story would be treated. Often times, he brings the disagreements about himself.

 

Egwene is definitely an example. She is undoubtedly on the side of the Light and is often quite heroic, but she does tend to be at odds with Rand a lot. She loves him and cares about him personally, but the way she fights her battles doesn't always fall in line with the way he fights his. If they should come to a pass where she stands in his way on an issue, there will definitely be as much controversy about her as there is about Latra Posae and Lews Therin.

 

For years Egwene was one of the despised female characters of the series and within one book, Knife of Dreams, she immediately improved her status among most of the same people who slagged her off before.

 

It's quite fickle isn't it?

 

I'm willing to see though that both Latra and Lews Therin had to do what they did in order for the Light to have the chance it has at the moment to defeat the Dark One.

 

In the same breath, there is also blame for both the shoulder for the events that led to the Breaking.

 

I still can't see the value in demonizing Latra any more than Lews Therin.

 

What is is a result of what was. What was...had to be.

 

If it weren't for Latra, the Choedan Kal probably wouldn't have been made, the access keys never recovered and therefore Rand would have had no sa'angreal to CLEANSE SAIDIN.

 

Hmm...go ahead, let it sink in.

 

Have a little more respect for the Shadow Cutter! ;)

[anamul]

Nope,Latra was a twisted politician. As for Choden kal, it doesn't matter who made it.

 

The fact of a great leadership, you take what you get at any given time and use that resources to there highest potential in order to achieve your goal.

 

Even if Latra was born again and had Choden kail, she would have never agreed to Rand's plane.

 

As for Egwene, I still hate her, and it increase with each book.After reading KOD, I despise her.

 

People who disliked her for her personality still dislikes her. Only those who disliked her due to her lack of activity changed their mind now.

 

To me, her flaw is in her attitude. With Rand and others. Come to think of it, she might very well be Latra reborn.

 

As for access keys being found, some here already pointed it out that it was found too late. There was no time. LTT considered the access key first. But when they were running out of time, waiting to find access key had no merite.

It would have been a huge disaster.

 

As luckers said, it had merite at first, but when LTT began to consider other option, the time was running out. Only reason I see, is her arrogant, for clinging into a plane that wasn't going to work. The way she opposed him had a way too personal feel to it.

[Lille]

For all we know, Lews Therin and Latra could have been great friends, because at the least they were respected colleagues on the same side after all. She may have wanted to block the attack in order to save her friends who would go because of desperation. A colder view would be that she saw it as a terrible waste to risk over a hundred of the strongest channelers the Light has on a crap shot.

 

If she would have agreed to his plans, they wouldn't have risked over a hundred of the strongest channelers the Light had, they would have risked the lives of 13, 6 males and 7 females.

 

 

 

Tip of the Day: Go read The Strike at Shayol Ghul. It has alot of info regarding what happened.

[Bob T Dwarf]

``They abdicated all responsibility for a favorable outcome to some unknown future generation.''

 

`What good is your foretelling, if you cannot tell us when?' (From the argument in the Hall of the Servants going on when the Aiel are sent off with the wagons loaded with objects of the power and Chora cuttings.] They were acting on a foretelling in doing this. It appears that they constructed both the Stone and the Eye of the World on the basis of the same. Given the sacrifice required to construct the Eye of the World, they were doing a bit more than just abdicating responsibility.

 

Suppose you're down in the bottom of a hole.  You've got a pick.  You've got a shovel.  And you've got a bucket.

 

You've got two choices.  You can use your bare hands to dig more holes.  One for the pick.  One for the shovel.  One for the bucket.  And then use your bare hands to fill those holes in again.  Then leave clues for your descendants who will be born down in that hole to find them again so that they can use them.

 

Or, you can use those tools now to dig your way out of that hole so that generations of your descendants don't have to be born and live their entire lives at the bottom of a hole.

 

Which would you do?

[Valinthros]

 

I'm not blaming Lews Therin. I'm not blaming Rand.

 

 

In fact, you already blamed Lews Therin several times in earlier posts.  Example:

 

Lews Therin, despite sealing the Dark One away, blundered. He was not the savior. He failed. Everyone who loved him was destroyed and the world with them.

 

Let's be concrete in what we say, shall we?  No backing up, just state it and run with it.  (Though if you do change your mind, please be kind enough to state the reasons you have and the opinion you had before so that others cant pick apart our posts like I just did yours.  No offense meant, it's not personal.)

 

 

In reading the other posts contained herein, John, I fail to see your point on Latrae Posae Decume being completely innocent.  In other words, not motivated by political gain or power.  Tell me where you get that information?  Point blank.  POV?  Do you know her motivations?  I'll await your answer on concrete evidence of her political motivations.  I challenge you to back it up.

 

On the flip side.  We know that Latrae opposed Lew's Therin's plan.  However, like I stated above, there is no evidence concrete enough to tell us what her motivations were.  It could be assumed that either she was deathly afraid of those seals breaking apart, or that she was politically motivated to object in order to secure more power.  Important events gain alot of 'face' time, this could be one way to come out on top.  With this kind of theory, and please, this isnt my stand point, this is just another way of looking at it.  Latrae opposes Lews Therin's strike, when it doesnt yeild the most favorable results(I.E. taint on Saidin), she denounces his name(and we dont know if she did denounce him or not), and as one who had opposed it to begin with, she gains momentum politically.  Lews Therin's name is eventually connected to the Dragon's Fang, which is a symbol used to denounce one a friend of the dark.  So, here we have Lews Therin, setup to be the whole reason that the breaking happened in the first place, the cause as it were.  And John as above stated, comforms with the common opinion about the Dragon being the cause along with the rest of randland.  [***When in fact, the cause, in my opinion, IS the SHADOW itself.  There's the blame.***]  So, with Lews Therins' name blackened, and Latrae in power, who then shall write history?  Lews?  If I remember correctly, it is theorized that Ishy advised none other than Artur Hawkwing.  What does this mean?  It means that even the shadow can put on a face that the light cannot peirce.  Another example, is one close to Rand himself.  Who was it that stood guard on Rand when he cleansed Saidin?  I'll let you answer that for yourselves. Even a friend of the dark can do good things for the greater bad.  [Please dont argue that she did them because of what she beleived, and not orders from the DO.  That's irrelivent, the point is who she is and what she did.]

 

In conclusion, the events that happened during Lews and Latrae's time can not be accurately judged because there is insufficient evidence to go on.  Therefore, I cannot say that Latrae was a DF or not.  I can say, that with what we know about other dark friends, it is possible.  Even a king or queen can turn to the dark.  (No, simply saying that since they did not know of the incoming strike on Shayul Ghul, then she could not have been a friend of the dark is not reason enough to excuse her either.  There is an example above, and we dont know IF the Dark knew of the plan in the first place.)  Again, as no concrete evidence exists either way, she could be either.  (I'd like to beleive she was not.)

[SqueeEGA]

Was she a DF?  I dont think so.

 

From where I sit she seemed possessed by 'The Law of Unintended Consequences'.  All the things that COULD go wrong, not WOULD go wrong.  'What if you rip the bore wide open?  What if...What if...What if.'  I believe it was Pedron Niall who said, in a nut shell 'to act without information can be devastating, but to wait for all the information can be equally as devastating.'

 

The following opinion may be due to my being male, but I'd like to think its not.  I think that LTT made the right call.  From where I sit there were only a handful of possible outcomes.  Either:

 

A) the forces of dark overrun the forces of light, the DO breaks free and rules the world.  Not good.

 

B) the sealing fails, the bore is ripped wide open, the DO breaks free and rules the world.  Same as A.

 

C) the sealing works perfectly and we're left with the land of milk and honey.

 

And D) what actually happened.

 

The Light has less than a year left before being overrun.  Harrying off on an adventure to acquire a couple of ter'angreal to move forward with a plan that as about as much chance of success as LTT's plan is a waste of time the Light does not have.

 

I find it offensive to suggest that the women dithered.  When push came to shove, and they were the only ones left to act, they acted.  They had no choice but to leave it to another generation.  They had to wait for the Dragon to be reborn after all.  They made the necessary preparations.  'And what now?'  'Now, we wait.'  (Light help me I cannot remember what thats from...Is it Harry Potter?)

 

Note: This has been one of the best discussions based entirely on speculation that Ive ever read.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Light has less than a year left before being overrun.  Harrying off on an adventure to acquire a couple of ter'angreal to move forward with a plan that as about as much chance of success as LTT's plan is a waste of time the Light does not have.

 

Yet, that is what most wanted to do, according to what we've been told.  And still the Fateful Concord held, forcing LTT to try to do what had to be done without the help of any women.  The original plan could have still been enacted.   It would have taken only 7 women and 6 men plus support troops to carry out the original plan.

 

That's your dithering.

 

I find it offensive to suggest that the women dithered.  When push came to shove, and they were the only ones left to act, they acted.  They had no choice but to leave it to another generation.  They had to wait for the Dragon to be reborn after all.  They made the necessary preparations.

 

No, they didn't really act.  They temporized yet again.  They hid away everything that could have helped them salvage as much as possible from a disaster rather than use it to mitigate that disaster.

 

Needing to see that something continues to exist in the future does not mean that you can't use it today.  Nor does failing to use it today guarantee that it will survive into the future.  In fact, failing to use it today just creates a set of conditions making it less likely that those items will survive.

 

That total abdication of all responsibility to their present is the issue.  That's where they dithered and that's where they failed.

 

And, the worst part of that is, real people wouldn't act that way.

 

Look at Latra Posae's plan:

1.  Use the CK to defeat the Dark's forces in the field.

2.  Use the CK to erect an impregnable barrier around Shayol Ghul until a safe way to deal with the Bore could be determined.

 

However imperfectly it was done, the Bore had now already been sealed, so all that was left was to defeat the Dark's forces and deal with those male Aes Sedai who were going mad.  If the CK were strong enough to imprison the DO, then equally, they were strong enough to create an impregnable fortress from which the remaining work could be done.

 

Real people would have done that.  The attitude of real people always is - Tomorrow can take care of itself, my kids need to eat today.

[Snowy Dawn]

``Or, you can use those tools now to dig your way out of that hole so that generations of your descendants don't have to be born and live their entire lives at the bottom of a hole.''

 

I assume that the substance of the foretelling told against such a course of action. As for the hole, the Compact of Ten Nations was well on its way to digging its way out of said hole when the Trolloc Wars started. Hawkwing's empire would have had a much better chance of survival if he had not gotten too ambitious and sent out the expeditions to Shara and across the Aryth Ocean. in both cases the efforts came to grief at least in part thru' the agency of the one Forsaken who was not completely bound, viz. Ishamael. Did Solinda Sedai and the others know that? The choice they took was riskier than they could knew: was their decision so unreasonable given what they thought they faced. [They should have found Aes Sedai to send with the Aiel, of course...]

[Jonn]

For all we know, Lews Therin and Latra could have been great friends, because at the least they were respected colleagues on the same side after all. She may have wanted to block the attack in order to save her friends who would go because of desperation. A colder view would be that she saw it as a terrible waste to risk over a hundred of the strongest channelers the Light has on a crap shot.

 

If she would have agreed to his plans, they wouldn't have risked over a hundred of the strongest channelers the Light had, they would have risked the lives of 13, 6 males and 7 females.

 

 

 

Tip of the Day: Go read The Strike at Shayol Ghul. It has alot of info regarding what happened.

 

It's speculated that you can expand links with men and women beyond thirteen.

 

No way would they strike at Shayol Ghul with just 13.

 

 

I see this argument long having gone to a philosophical tangent, and I think it's a little tiring when we get to a point when personal feelings towards characters get in the way of accepting points in the plot that are defined and others that are undefined.

 

An undefined plot point in this case would be the character details of Latra Posae.

 

Still, we have many in this discussion demonizing her, making all kinds of jumps at what her personality is, when we simply don't have that information.

 

Every reason she could have had to fear what would happen if they followed Lews Therin's plan HAS BEEN JUSTIFIED.

 

The Breaking, Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions all lost. The Shadow still loose and now no Dragon to aid in the effort. 

 

Bob and others want to go to this philosophical place where we can somehow prove that if Latra had agreed with Lews Therin, everything would have turned out fine.

 

We don't know that. We can't know that.

 

What we do know is that after Lews Therin (basically) committed suicide, Latra became just as important to the struggle of the Light as Lews Therin ever was.

 

Lews Therin fought for 10 years, during some of the hottest fighting of the War. Can we truly come to think that Latra Posae was not there as well?

 

How else would she have the political backing to oppose Lews Therin if she wasn't well respected by the Hall?

 

So, Lews Therin, being the dragon, the figurehead of the cause, fights for ten years and things look bleak. He commits to his plan against the wishes of a large portion of the Hall.  The result is a temporarily sealed Bore, the death of dozens of the strongest male Aes Sedai including Lews Therin, Saidin Tainted and the Breaking of the world.

 

Latra meanwhile, continues to fight the Shadow for another 40 years after...decades longer than Lews Therin was willing to fight. She recovered the keys to the Choedan Kal and set the stage for Aes Sedai like Solinda to place the pieces to herald the return of the Dragon.

 

OK, let us have another hypothetical:

 

What if Latra gave up on retrieving the access keys?

 

Lews Therin wins the campaign in the Hall and they agree to strike Shayol Ghul. Everything goes fine and the Dark One is sealed...How many of the Forsaken are caught in the seal then?

 

If Latra doesn't oppose Lews Therin, are the 100 companions going to attack on the same day that the top Forsaken are meeting? We don't know that. Probably not.

 

OK, so the seal is in place, saidin is intact. Some of the top Forsaken survive. What now? The Shadow are still as strong as they were before, minus a few of the Forsaken maybe, and the influence of the Dark One halted for the moment. Still, the Shadow holds the larger portion of the world including the lands that contain the Choedan Kal and their access keys.

 

Latra's operation to retrieve the keys was abandoned, so there's no intel on the status of the keys. The Forsaken are still pushing with their armies, hoping that if they succeed in conquering the rest of the lands, they could have it all...and maybe they could find a way to free the Dark One afterwards if need be. Hmm, but how? What's this? Two sa'angreal, the strongest ever seen? There must be some way to use them, keys...Ah, here they are, right under my nose. We'll smash the rest of the Aes Sedai and conquer the world. Thanks for building em Aes Sedai. Couldn't have done it without ya.

 

You see, none of it happened the way it was supposed to happen and then again...ALL OF IT happened the way it was MEANT to happen.

 

Latra was destined to stick to her guns on the matter and go after the access keys for the Choedan Kal.

 

Lews Therin was destined to seal the bore and break the world.

 

 

[Jonn]

 

I'm not blaming Lews Therin. I'm not blaming Rand.

 

 

In fact, you already blamed Lews Therin several times in earlier posts.  Example:

 

Lews Therin, despite sealing the Dark One away, blundered. He was not the savior. He failed. Everyone who loved him was destroyed and the world with them.

 

Let's be concrete in what we say, shall we?  No backing up, just state it and run with it.  (Though if you do change your mind, please be kind enough to state the reasons you have and the opinion you had before so that others cant pick apart our posts like I just did yours.  No offense meant, it's not personal.)

 

 

In reading the other posts contained herein, John, I fail to see your point on Latrae Posae Decume being completely innocent.  In other words, not motivated by political gain or power.  Tell me where you get that information?  Point blank.  POV?  Do you know her motivations?  I'll await your answer on concrete evidence of her political motivations.  I challenge you to back it up.

 

I never said she was innocent.

 

Secondly, just because his actions led to the Breaking, doesn't mean it's totally Lews Therin's fault now does it?

 

People can blame George Bush for the bad economy, but if we're objective, it's not totally his fault. His is just the face that's easiest to identify, as he's the figurehead for the age we live in at the moment. Like it or not.

 

Not saying that Lews Therin should be comparable to George Bush, but you can see what I mean.

 

the original question is: Was Latra a Darkfriend?

 

People then took that as a cue to assign blame for how the Strike at Shayol Ghul turned out.

 

Fact is, assigning blame isn't really the same as proving whether or not Latra was a Darkfriend.

 

The context then applied to what I said about whether or not to blame Lews Therin or Rand for the mistakes or mishaps they've committed.

 

It's irrelevant.

 

Lews Therin causing the Breaking, doesn't make him a darkfriend does it?

 

So, being a darkfriend doesn't necessarily have anything to do with causing the Breaking.

 

Latra couldn't know that her opposition would lead to the Breaking any more than Lews Therin could know.

 

I do know that if she was a Darkfriend, the Shadow would have long expected Lews Therin's attack on Shayol Ghul and it would have failed even before they could get to the tainting of saidin.

 

That's why I think it's pointless to rant about who is more at fault for the Breaking.

 

All of the antagonism towards Latra is made up, a projection.

 

We don't know anything about her personality to come to these conclusions, and if you want to say actions speak louder, or inaction for that matter...Lews Therin's approach towards things is the much more direct of routes towards what ended up being the Breaking, but we think all kinds of good things about him.