The Bodyswap Theory

[Thor]

because ishamael is human.  because if he could do that he could have bound everybody's soul to make them work for the shadow instead of squabbling for personal interests like the rest of the forsaken.

[Roxinos]

because ishamael is human.  because if he could do that he could have bound everybody's soul to make them work for the shadow instead of squabbling for personal interests like the rest of the forsaken.

 

As stated before, there are weaves that have limited control over souls. And you don't see people going crazy abusing them. Ishamael is human, yes, but so were the people who created that barrier around Callandor.

 

What makes you think tearing Rand's soul from his body is an easy task? What makes you think tearing any soul from the body is an easy task? Perhaps there is a reason besides ulterior motive that caused Ishamael to wait to the last minute to tear Rand's soul from his body? Perhaps trying to use the same technique on anyone but the most inexperienced and weak of a channeler would fail almost certainly.

 

So basically, because you don't want to believe that Ishamael has some power that not everyone has (or at least that not everyone uses) you're willing to ignore everything else?

[Thor]

where did i say it is an easy task?

 

And no, there is nothing that can back up your claim of his ability to manipulate souls.  he couldn't even manipulate mesaana's soul to make her show up at the cleansing, what makes you think he can manipulate any soul?

 

And there is also nothing in the books that suggest channeling the power to protect you from soul manipulation.

 

There is however very strong evidence that drawing on the power more strongly protects you from being severed.

[Roxinos]

where did i say it is an easy task?

 

Then what's the problem? You just refuse to believe that this is the case when the evidence supports it.

 

he couldn't even manipulate mesaana's soul to make her show up at the cleansing,

 

Forcing someone to do something and just ripping their soul from their body are two completely different things.

 

what makes you think he can manipulate any soul?

 

What makes me think he can rip the soul from someone's body?

 

1) Well, he said it. And there's no reason to believe that he was lying just for the dramatic effect.

 

2) We know that there are weaves which can effect the soul.

2a) Moreover, we know there are weaves which can force the soul from the body completely. (See the weave of Spirit which threw Faile's soul into Tel'aran'rhiod.)

 

3) The effect described in The Dragon Reborn seems to indicate just that. The soul being torn right out of Rand's body.

 

I've mentioned all of these before.

 

And there is also nothing in the books that suggest channeling the power to protect you from soul manipulation.

 

True. That's where the speculation RAW came up with comes in:

 

The Source is the Power that turns the Wheel, so it is not impossible that simply holding the Power can strengthen a soul's bond to the Wheel.

 

And to address RAW:

 

However, Roxinos, in response to your deployment of Occam's Razor, I would gleefully quote Jordan again ... "It's never simple."

 

Oh, how very true. *laughs*

[Thor]

Yes well then I can add my own theory too.

 

Ishamael was channeling True Power which is woven differently from the One Power. Hence when he tried to sever Rand, Rand expereiences a different sensation to normal severing.

 

And I can back it up with him overcoming the severing attempt by drawing on Callandor.

 

Believe what you want to.  All this speculation of soul is pretty laughable, given that we don't even know anything about souls in our own world.  We do however know that it is harder to cut something that is thicker.

[Roxinos]

See, the difference between your theory and mine is that mine has support from stuff in the book while yours is just pure speculation.

 

Believe what you want to.  All this speculation of soul is pretty laughable, given that we don't even know anything about souls in our own world.  We do however know that it is harder to cut something that is thicker.

 

That's just so insulting and mind-bogglingly illogical and nonsensical that I have no idea where to start.

[MikeRiley]

When you're severed, your connection to the source is cut, it's simple and quick, this wasn't quick. You could argue that having your soul ripped out would also prevent you from channeling, though. If the TP was used to sever somebody, it would still be in a cutting weave. It wouldn't steal away whatever the two points were that Nynaeve bridged to Heal stilling.

 

Ishamael was ripping out Rand's soul. Why? Because taunting is something Ishamael's good at and it would be just like him to tell Rand what he's about to do. He had absolutely no reason to lie at a time like that and every reason not to - he wanted Rand to know.

 

There are some weaves that don't work if a person is channeling, compulsion being one. Compulsion also works much easier on the weak minded. It's not beyond belief that a person's willpower is strengthened by the amount of power they hold. When Rand drew through Callandor it's quite possible he strengthened himself enough that the weave on him failed. It's also very possible that the weave would have taken more time to kill him and Ishamael realized that he didn't have that much time when the extra flood of Saidin rushed into Rand. He would then have released the weave and went with something quicker and more deadly.

[RobertAlexWillis]

then explain why the sensation stopped as soon as rand touched callandor.

 

He didn't just touch Callandor.  He touched Callandor, and the Power flooded into him in unbelievable amounts, and the ripping sensation stopped.  Channeling massive amounts of the One Power is what stopped whatever it is that Ba'alzamon was doing, instantly, without any weaving.  I would add that Ba'alzamon explicitly said that he was taking Rand's soul, and had no reason to lie, since I doubt he believed that he would fail at that point.

 

Ishamael was channeling True Power which is woven differently from the One Power. Hence when he tried to sever Rand, Rand expereiences a different sensation to normal severing.

 

Thats a potentially valid point.  Of course, it seems likely that Shaidar Haran uses the True Power to shield Osan'gar and Aran'gar at the beginning of LoC, and apparently Osan'gar felt nothing.  To quote the prologue to LoC, "He [Osan'gar] reached for saidin - and found nothing.  He had not been shirlded; he would have felt it, and known how to work around it or break it, given time, if it was not too strong.  This was as if he had been severed.  Shock petrified him where he stood."

 

Clearly, Osan'gar felt nothing like what is described with Rand in the Stone.  Given that, AND Ba'alzamon's statement when he had no reason to lie, AND the fact that we have other descriptions of what being shielded/severed feels like, AND the fact that there is nothing but your own bald, unsupported statement as evidence in favor of shielding, I'll stick with my assessment.  We may not know for certain exactly what it is that Ba'alzamon tried to do in the Stone, but we can be very confident it is not shielding/severing.

 

All this speculation of soul is pretty laughable, given that we don't even know anything about souls in our own world.

 

Actually, at the risk of returning your insult, your own statement is pretty laughable.  We know MORE about souls in Randland than we do in the real world, because we have verifiable statements from the ultimate Creator of the world, one Robert Jordan.  So it is MORE likely that we could speculate accurately about Randland souls, not less.

 

We do however know that it is harder to cut something that is thicker.

 

As far as being severed from the Power, no we don't.  Every time that I can remember where we know someone is being shielded or severed they have had to actually weave something to stop it, not just hold more of the Power.  Perhaps you can provide a counter-example.

 

There is however very strong evidence that drawing on the power more strongly protects you from being severed.

 

Perhaps you could quote said evidence?

 

because ishamael is human.  because if he could do that he could have bound everybody's soul to make them work for the shadow instead of squabbling for personal interests like the rest of the forsaken.

 

Ishamael has always acted differently than the other Forsaken.  He didn't bother setting up a personal little domain, he doesn't get involved in their little infighting.  He clearly views himself as directly connected to the Dark One, using the True Power almost exclusively, always being put in charge if he is on the scene.  One of the reasons for my speculation lies in that very distinction.  The other Forsaken (in this specific case, Be'lal) did indeed have other reasons to keep Rand alive.  But I can't get a handle on Ishy's reason, unless he needs Rand to willingly come over for something.

 

And no, there is nothing that can back up your claim of his ability to manipulate soul

 

Um, he seemed to have Kari al'Thor's soul pretty well wrapped up at the Eye.  Please note that I'm basing my argument on what is in the books, not on what I just feel like asserting.

 

And there is also nothing in the books that suggest channeling the power to protect you from soul manipulation.

 

Actually, if you read my first post, there is.  Connecting Birgitte, even indirectly, to the Power is the ONLY thing that saved her from ... wait for it ... having her soul ripped from the Wheel.  And now, we have evidence that her soul is reconnected (Min's visions in Caemlyn).  Nynaeve was Healing for all she was worth, using things that Elayne couldn't even follow, but none of that helped, because it didn't connect her soul to the Power that turns the Wheel.  Warders share the protection that being connected to the Power gives to their Aes Sedai, according to Moiraine.  Birgitte's experience is indicative that such protection includes some protections against soul manipulation.

[Nightstrike]

We do however know that it is harder to cut something that is thicker.

 

As far as being severed from the Power, no we don't.  Every time that I can remember where we know someone is being shielded or severed they have had to actually weave something to stop it, not just hold more of the Power.  Perhaps you can provide a counter-example.

 

There is however very strong evidence that drawing on the power more strongly protects you from being severed.

 

Perhaps you could quote said evidence?

Sorry, this time I disagree with you, RAW (that's what people call you on these forums, right?). Rand vs Lanfear before Lanfear and Moiraine went to finnland. I'm sure there are more examples.

 

 

 

 

 

And no, there is nothing that can back up your claim of his ability to manipulate soul

Um, he seemed to have Kari al'Thor's soul pretty well wrapped up at the Eye.  Please note that I'm basing my argument on what is in the books, not on what I just feel like asserting.

I think Ba'alzamon were pulling Rand's soul, just as RAW and Ba'alzamon himself says. And I think he did it because of the connection to the DO that the Forsaken and others have. Pulling away Rand's soul might have given the DO access to Rand's soul. That is complete victory for the DO. Killing Rand is clearly not on the Shadow's agenda. Something is different between those two scenarios. The difference is most likely the DO's access to souls. RJ got the question if the DO had access to grab any soul. He answered "No, no, no...". I do not think that the Shadow had Kari al'Thors soul. I think she would have had to go to Shayol Ghul for the DO to get access. And I don't think Kari was a darkfriend. Control over T'a'r is something that the Forsaken seem to be good at (Rahvin, Moggy, and so on). The DO is the father of lies and Ba'alzamon is just about as reliable.

 

 

[Charlz Fel]

 

We do however know that it is harder to cut something that is thicker.

 

As far as being severed from the Power, no we don't.  Every time that I can remember where we know someone is being shielded or severed they have had to actually weave something to stop it, not just hold more of the Power.  Perhaps you can provide a counter-example.

 

There is however very strong evidence that drawing on the power more strongly protects you from being severed.

 

Perhaps you could quote said evidence?

 

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 54 "To Caemlyn":

With all her strength Nyneave wove a shield of Spirit and hurled it between the other woman and saidar.  Tried to hurl it between; it was like chopping at a tree with a paper hatchet.

Admittedly, this is not ideal evidence; since Nyneave is in TAR using a "practice ter'angreal," perhaps the ter'angreal she was using prevented her weaves from actually affecting anything.  But it sounds to me more like the ter'angreal prevented her from channeling any more than, say, Morgase, and her strength was not enough.

Chapter 52, "Choices":

The thicker the flow to him from the Source, the harder it would be to cut.

This is a thought of Rand's in his battle with Lanfear, right before he drew on his angreal.  One could argue that he did not know what he was talking about, but I do not believe that is the case.

[Mr Ares]

Rand still had only limited control over his ability to channel. The instant he touched The Sword That Is Not a Sword he began to channel through it.

Good point.

 

nah don't think so

Bad point. In other words, we should accept your theory just because.

 

where did i say it is an easy task?

It is implied by this: "because if he could do that he could have bound everybody's soul to make them work for the shadow". After all, if doing it is hard, that's a good reason not to do it with everybody. But what's the point in arguing with someone so desperate to deny the evidence of the books.

[Thor]

really want to go down that route? let's do it then.

 

Ishamael claimed he's the dark one, he isn't.  So why should I believe he can do anything to the soul?

 

You could argue that perhaps ishamael was trying to make it so that Rand/LTT would never ever be able to channel again in all of his reincarnations in the future, but it's still the same thing, he was trying to sever Rand.

[Mr Ares]

Ishamael claimed he's the dark one, he isn't.

When?

[MikeRiley]

really want to go down that route? let's do it then.

 

Ishamael claimed he's the dark one, he isn't.  So why should I believe he can do anything to the soul?

 

You could argue that perhaps ishamael was trying to make it so that Rand/LTT would never ever be able to channel again in all of his reincarnations in the future, but it's still the same thing, he was trying to sever Rand.

 

The only way he was trying to sever Rand was by ripping out his soul so he couldn't channel anyway.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sorry, this time I disagree with you, RAW (that's what people call you on these forums, right?).  Rand vs Lanfear before Lanfear and Moiraine went to finnland. I'm sure there are more examples.

 

Sorry, but that example actually supports my assertion.  To quote:

 

"It was not at him directly that she struck this time.  It was at his link to saidin ...

 

Her attempted shield vanished, reappeared, returned, as fast as he could cut it, but always with that momentary ebbing of saidin, moments when it almost failed, leaving his counterstroke barely enough to foil her attack.  Handling two weaves at once should have been easy - he could handle ten or more - but not when one was a desperate defense against something he could not know was there until it was almost two late."

 

(TFoH ch 52)

 

So, what do we learn from this encounter?  To stop Lanfear from shielding him, Rand had to weave something.  Just holding as much of the power as he could was not enough.  Rand surely could hold as much of the Power, volume-wise, as Lanfear.  They each had an angreal, and he was stronger in himself.  But just holding all that Power didn't stop her, or even slow her down.  He couldn't stop the shield until he felt it cutting him off from the Source, and then he had to WEAVE something to stop her.  The volume of Power he was holding did not change that.

 

Nynaeve's encounter with Moghedien in Tanchico emphasizes the same point.  Even though she only halfway knew what she was doing, she had to weave a defense; simply holding the Power made no difference.

 

Charz, you are quite correct that it was probably the effect of Tel'aran'rhiod, and not of Moghedien's strength in the Power, that caused Nynaeve's experience in TFoH ch 54.  And when Rand thinks to himself that "The thicker the flow to him from the Source, the harder it would be to cut." that is quite true, but only because the more Power that he is drawing, the more he has to respond with.  Its not that it seems to require more effort, but that it requires and instant more of time, giving him time to respond.  The reason I say that is that Rand was holding more Power, "volume" wise, than Lanfear could possibly have been holding, since they both had angreal.  That being the case, if simple volume of Power made it more difficult effort wise, then Lanfear shouldn't have been able to cut him off at all.  Simply drawing all the Power he could hold should have been enough for Rand, if that were the case.  But clearly it was not.

 

The relative difficulty of shielding someone based on the "thickness" of their connection to the Power is arguable, I admit.  But that is tangential, at best, to the point at hand.  Whether it is slightly more difficult or not, the fact remains that the "thickness" of someone's connection to the Power, the amount of Power that is being channeled, is never enough by itself to prevent shielding.  In every case, the target has to actually weave something to stop themselves from being shielded, and in the incident in question (Ba'alzamon and Rand in the Stone) Rand did not weave anything.

[Nightstrike]

RAW, the thing I disagreed with you about was this:

We do however know that it is harder to cut something that is thicker.

 

As far as being severed from the Power, no we don't.  Every time that I can remember where we know someone is being shielded or severed they have had to actually weave something to stop it, not just hold more of the Power.  Perhaps you can provide a counter-example.

 

There is however very strong evidence that drawing on the power more strongly protects you from being severed.

 

Perhaps you could quote said evidence?

 

"The thicker the flow to him from the Source, the harder it would be to cut." (TFoH, Choices). That means that it IS "harder to cut something that is thicker". Wasn't that what you said "no" to? In the quote above? Another example is the flow saidar/saidin during the cleansing. None of the Forsaken tried to get to the flow. They tried to get to Rand. If they could have cut that flow, then I'm sure they would have tried  to do it. So, it really is harder to cut something that is thicker. I think that makes perfect sense. It would have been extremely, extremely strange if the opposite had been true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeRiley]

In Knife of Dreams when Semirhage tries to ambush Rand and his honor guard, the damane had instructions to shield everybody with him. They couldn't do it because the Aes Sedai and Asha'man were already holding the power and just masked the ability. Severing is different in that it can work no matter how much you're holding. We see Moghedien and Nynaeve fighting at their peak levels like this and Moghedien wouldn't have wasted her time if it was impossible. If Nynaeve didn't cut Moghedien's spirit weaves she would have been severed despite holding as much power in her as Moghedien was.

[Roxinos]

The problem with all of this discussion of severing and how difficult it would be to sever/shield someone relative to the amount of Power the person being severed/shielded is holding is that you don't now how much Power the person who is trying to sever/shield is using in their attempts to sever/shield.

 

While Rand was fighting Lanfear, you don't know how large the weaves to shield are. When Moghedien was fighting Nynaeve, Nynaeve doesn't know too much about severing/shielding to know how much is normal, so the size of the cutting weaves don't process to her. So while they both may be holding to same amount of the Power, the weaves to sever Nynaeve may have been pretty damned strong because Nynaeve was holding so much of the Power.

 

When the damane in Knife of Dreams tried to shield the Asha'man and Aes Sedai, they weren't able to because the Aes Sedai and Asha'man were already holding the Power. It doesn't mean it was impossible, it was just that the damane would have needed to use more of the Power in their attempts to shield than they expected to have used.

 

Whatever this says for anyone's argument is moot for the most part. Ishamael was trying to take Rand's soul.

 

Ishamael claimed he's the dark one, he isn't.  So why should I believe he can do anything to the soul?

 

When did Ishamael ever claim he was the Great Lord? He always referred to himself as Ba'alzamon, not as the Great Lord. He always referred to the Great Lord of the Dark in the third person. For example, just before he tried to take Rand's soul in The Dragon Reborn he said this:

 

"Twice in this life I have ofered you the chance to serve me living." [He is not saying that he is the Great Lord, here. He is just saying that he did give Rand the chance to serve him by transferring to the Shadow.] Flames leaped in his mouth as he spoke, and every word roared like a furnace. "Twice you have refused, and wounded me. Now you will serve the Lord of the Grave in death. Die, Lews Therin Kinslayer. Die, Rand al'Thor. It is time for you to die! I take your soul!"

 

[bolded for emphasis]

 

In the bolded portion, he referred to the Lord of the Grave (a common name for the Great Lord).

[Nightstrike]

The problem with all of this discussion of severing and how difficult it would be to sever/shield someone relative to the amount of Power the person being severed/shielded is holding is that you don't now how much Power the person who is trying to sever/shield is using in their attempts to sever/shield.

 

While Rand was fighting Lanfear, you don't know how large the weaves to shield are. When Moghedien was fighting Nynaeve, Nynaeve doesn't know too much about severing/shielding to know how much is normal, so the size of the cutting weaves don't process to her. So while they both may be holding to same amount of the Power, the weaves to sever Nynaeve may have been pretty damned strong because Nynaeve was holding so much of the Power.

Why would they hold anything back. Moggy fight with Nynaeve - Nynaeve even thinks about them not holding any back. "Throwing all her strength at her" or whatever. I wouldn't hold anything back. I think noone else would either. Not a wise move it they did.

 

Whatever this says for anyone's argument is moot for the most part. Ishamael was trying to take Rand's soul.

Agreed.

 

When did Ishamael ever claim he was the Great Lord? He always referred to himself as Ba'alzamon, not as the Great Lord. He always referred to the Great Lord of the Dark in the third person.

No, I don't think he did say so. It was Rand that called him that (if I remember correctly?), and he certainly did nothing to contradict him. Quite the contrary, I think. For instance, he said something like "The White Tower will use you. Until you're dead. And then you're mine. All dead belong to me.". That sounds very much like that fellow thinks he is the Lord of the Grave. Didn't some of the other Forsaken mention that he seemed to really believe that he was (him being less than 100% sane), or don't I recall it correctly? Anyhow, he is pretty unreliable... I don't think that really was Kari al'Thor that he showed Rand. After all, he also conjured up Nynaeve and Egwene.

 

Severing is different in that it can work no matter how much you're holding.

Is it? How do you know that? Do you have any quote to back that up, cause I think it seems... wrong?

 

 

 

[Roxinos]

Why would they hold anything back. Moggy fight with Nynaeve - Nynaeve even thinks about them not holding any back. "Throwing all her strength at her" or whatever. I wouldn't hold anything back. I think noone else would either. Not a wise move it they did.

 

I never said the were holding anything back. I just said we're unsure of the amount of Power being put into the specific severing/shielding weaves (which are two different weaves, they feel quite different from one another, but neither feel anything remotely like what is described in The Dragon Reborn in Rand's encounter with Ba'alzamon). Yes, Moghedien was throwing all of her strength at Nynaeve, and Lanfear was throwing all of her strength at Rand, but all of their strength was not entirely put into the cutting/shielding weaves, that much is certain. Both Moghedien and Lanfear were also weaving other things to try to distract Nynaeve/Rand in their efforts to sever/shield, so it is unlikely that the full weight of all of the Power they were both holding was being put into their cutting/shielding weaves.

 

So it is unclear just how much Power they were using, and just how much Power is necessary to cut/shield given the amount of Power a person is holding.

 

It also seems that there is a difference in the amount of Power necessary in the cutting/severing weave as opposed to the shielding weave. The cutting weave seems to have little care about the amount of Power the person to be severed is holding, whereas the shielding weave seems to be reliant on the amount of Power the person who is to be shielded is holding at the time. So when Moghedien was fighting Nynaeve, it is not necessarily comparable to when Lanfear was fighting Rand.

 

It was Rand that called him that (if I remember correctly?), and he certainly did nothing to contradict him.

 

Not denying what your enemy believes to be true, regardless of the truth is not the same as admitting it.

 

For instance, he said something like "The White Tower will use you. Until you're dead. And then you're mine. All dead belong to me.".

 

You may be right. I'd like to see an actual quote, though.

 

Didn't some of the other Forsaken mention that he seemed to really believe that he was (him being less than 100% sane), or don't I recall it correctly?

 

What the other Chosen believe that Ishamael thinks of himself is moot. They have their own interests and they think Ishamael is bloody insane (which he very well may be). It holds no bearing on how Ishamael thinks of himself.

 

Anyhow, he is pretty unreliable... I don't think that really was Kari al'Thor that he showed Rand. After all, he also conjured up Nynaeve and Egwene.

 

That may have not actually been Kari al'Thor. The point is ambiguous as best. I would not fault you for taking a side. As for conjuring up Nynaeve and Elayne? When was this? And did they act in nearly the same way that Kari al'Thor did?

 

Is it? How do you know that? Do you have any quote to back that up, cause I think it seems... wrong?

 

See what I said above about the uncertainty in the strength of the weaves of shielding and severing relative to the amount of the Power the person to be shielded/severed is holding.

[Nightstrike]

I never said the were holding anything back. I just said we're unsure of the amount of Power being put into the specific severing/shielding weaves (which are two different weaves, they feel quite different from one another, but neither feel anything remotely like what is described in The Dragon Reborn in Rand's encounter with Ba'alzamon).

Two very, very similar weaves. Severing being "sharper" and "slammed down" with more force. Not that big a difference. What do you mean with how they "feel"? If they aren't holding any back, then the amount of Power is as much as the channeler in question can manage. Twice the OP strength, twice the strength of the weave.

 

Yes, Moghedien was throwing all of her strength at Nynaeve, and Lanfear was throwing all of her strength at Rand, but all of their strength was not entirely put into the cutting/shielding weaves, that much is certain. Both Moghedien and Lanfear were also weaving other things to try to distract Nynaeve/Rand in their efforts to sever/shield, so it is unlikely that the full weight of all of the Power they were both holding was being put into their cutting/shielding weaves.

I don't think they could afford to divert too much of their strengths into other weaves. Even if you're right, Rand and Nynaeve would face the same difficulty.

 

So it is unclear just how much Power they were using, and just how much Power is necessary to cut/shield given the amount of Power a person is holding.

They used all they could manage. 100%. No less. That much is clear, and the rest really is unclear.

 

 

It also seems that there is a difference in the amount of Power necessary in the cutting/severing weave as opposed to the shielding weave. The cutting weave seems to have little care about the amount of Power the person to be severed is holding, whereas the shielding weave seems to be reliant on the amount of Power the person who is to be shielded is holding at the time.

Please provide a quote to prove this suggestion of yours.

 

 

For instance, he said something like "The White Tower will use you. Until you're dead. And then you're mine. All dead belong to me.".

 

You may be right. I'd like to see an actual quote, though.

Exact quote (EotW, 14):

When men such as these could not stand against me, what chance do you have, a toad crouching beside a forest puddle. You will serve me, or you will dance on Aes Sedai strings until you die. And then you will be mine. The dead belong to me.

He said "serve me" and not "serve the Great Lord". He said "the dead belong to me", which implies that he is the lord of the dead. He may even believe it himself (I think some other Forsaken suggested it).

 

 

Didn't some of the other Forsaken mention that he seemed to really believe that he was (him being less than 100% sane), or don't I recall it correctly?

 

What the other Chosen believe that Ishamael thinks of himself is moot. They have their own interests and they think Ishamael is bloody insane (which he very well may be). It holds no bearing on how Ishamael thinks of himself.

It does hold bearing, if they were right in thinking so... He said:..."All but those who already serve me. They will stand but a step beneath me. Your can choose to stand with tthem, with the world groveling at your feet. I offer it one more time, one last time. Your can stand above them, above every power and dominion but mine. There have been times when you made that choice, times when you liven long enough to know your power." (EotW, 43). Surely the DO would be the big boss if the Shadow ever won, right? That means that he more or less admitted that he was that big boss himself.

 

 

 

Anyhow, he is pretty unreliable... I don't think that really was Kari al'Thor that he showed Rand. After all, he also conjured up Nynaeve and Egwene.

 

That may have not actually been Kari al'Thor. The point is ambiguous as best. I would not fault you for taking a side. As for conjuring up Nynaeve and Elayne? When was this? And did they act in nearly the same way that Kari al'Thor did?

That was no point at all. I've presented my points previosly. Those points led me to say that it most likely wasn't Kari al'Thor. The conjuring of the girls was at the same time as Kari. But we don't need that example to know that it can be done. We've seen other vivid dream creatures being conjured up. Bela, trollocs, people, fishes... It can be done.

 

 

Is it? How do you know that? Do you have any quote to back that up, cause I think it seems... wrong?

 

See what I said above about the uncertainty in the strength of the weaves of shielding and severing relative to the amount of the Power the person to be shielded/severed is holding.

Do you have any quote to back this suggestion?

 

 

 

 

[Roxinos]

They used all they could manage. 100%. No less. That much is clear, and the rest really is unclear.

 

No. Moghedien and Lanfear were both also swinging other weaves at Nynaeve and Rand respectively to catch them off balance while they attempted to sever and shield respectively. If they are diverting some of their strength towards other weaves, then they could not possibly be using all of the One Power they can possibly hold in their weaves for severing and shielding respectively.

 

I don't think they could afford to divert too much of their strengths into other weaves. Even if you're right, Rand and Nynaeve would face the same difficulty.

 

Why not? Moghedien and Lanfear were both more adept in the One Power than their opponents. They knew what they were doing. Lanfear especially should not have had to focus all of her strength purely on shielding Rand unless the amount of Power Rand was holding had an effect on the shield. We know that holding the One Power at all is a barrier for a shield due to the damane's failed attempt to shield the Asha'man and Aes Sedai in Knife of Dreams. It stands to reason that the amount of One Power someone is holding also determines the efficacy of a shielding weave of a given strength; a stronger shielding weave is needed the more One Power the individual to be shielded is holding.

 

However, the same cannot be said of the severing weave because we have no third point of reference as we do in the case of shielding (the aforementioned damane's failed attempts at shielding the Aes Sedai in Knife of Dreams). All we know is that severing is a cutting weave and shielding is more like slamming down a wall in the middle of a torrent of water.

 

Please provide a quote to prove this suggestion of yours.

 

See my above mentions.

 

He said "serve me" and not "serve the Great Lord". He said "the dead belong to me", which implies that he is the lord of the dead. He may even believe it himself (I think some other Forsaken suggested it).

 

I stand corrected. However, I do not believe this necessarily means that Ishamael believes that he is the Great Lord. It is likely that he was lying in an attempt to keep Rand off guard and take advantage of Rand's fears and superstitions. The other Chosens' ideas on what Ishamael thinks of himself are quite moot because they are all arrogant themselves and can be just reflecting on Ishamael's level of insanity and arrogance.

 

Surely the DO would be the big boss if the Shadow ever won, right? That means that he more or less admitted that he was that big boss himself.

 

Not necessarily. He could very well have been referring to the fact that he is Nae'blis. In that case, if Rand joined the Shadow, he would stand above all of the other Chosen but the Nae'blis. However, in light of the previous quote and my comments on that, nothing has changed.

 

So I will not push the point further. If you wish to believe that Ishamael believed himself to be the Great Lord, then go for it. That doesn't mean that he was not ripping Rand's soul from his body in The Dragon Reborn.

 

That was no point at all. I've presented my points previosly. Those points led me to say that it most likely wasn't Kari al'Thor. The conjuring of the girls was at the same time as Kari. But we don't need that example to know that it can be done. We've seen other vivid dream creatures being conjured up. Bela, trollocs, people, fishes... It can be done.

 

True. I had forgotten that Egwene and Nynaeve were also conjured next to Kari. And that certainly does put a hindrance in the idea. However, when Rand denies the three visions:

 

"Mother?" he breathed, and she smiled, a hopeless smile. His mother's smile. "No! My mother is dead, and the other two are safe away from here. I deny you!" Egwene and Nynaeve blurred, became wafting mist, dissipated. Kari al'Thor still stood there, her eyes big with fear.

 

The vision of Kari did not act the same way as Nynaeve and Egwene, even after Rand denied it. It wasn't until Rand attacked the tormentors of Kari that she disappeared, and she did so in a manner completely unlike that of the disappearance of the visions of Nynaeve and Egwene.

 

As I said, there is plenty of ambiguity.

[Nightstrike]

No. Moghedien and Lanfear were both also swinging other weaves at Nynaeve and Rand respectively to catch them off balance while they attempted to sever and shield respectively. If they are diverting some of their strength towards other weaves, then they could not possibly be using all of the One Power they can possibly hold in their weaves for severing and shielding respectively.

Provide a quote, or it hasn't happened.

 

I don't think they could afford to divert too much of their strengths into other weaves. Even if you're right, Rand and Nynaeve would face the same difficulty.

 

Why not? Moghedien and Lanfear were both more adept in the One Power than their opponents. They knew what they were doing. Lanfear especially should not have had to focus all of her strength purely on shielding Rand unless the amount of Power Rand was holding had an effect on the shield. We know that holding the One Power at all is a barrier for a shield due to the damane's failed attempt to shield the Asha'man and Aes Sedai in Knife of Dreams. It stands to reason that the amount of One Power someone is holding also determines the efficacy of a shielding weave of a given strength; a stronger shielding weave is needed the more One Power the individual to be shielded is holding.

Same here. Quotes? I still think Rand and Nynaeve would need to counter any weave they face. I've never read anything that would cause be to think anything else. If I ever read anything else, I would be very surprised. And if they needn't counter those weaves, then why would lanny & moggy bother with weaving them?

 

Please provide a quote to prove this suggestion of yours.

 

See my above mentions.

I still won't believe it if you don't provide a quote.

 

 

Not necessarily. He could very well have been referring to the fact that he is Nae'blis. In that case, if Rand joined the Shadow, he would stand above all of the other Chosen but the Nae'blis. However, in light of the previous quote and my comments on that, nothing has changed.

The DO would still be in charge of the Nae'blis, or?

 

So I will not push the point further. If you wish to believe that Ishamael believed himself to be the Great Lord, then go for it. That doesn't mean that he was not ripping Rand's soul from his body in The Dragon Reborn.

I've never said that it meant that he wasn't ripping Rand's soul away from his body. I have even said that I think that it was exactly that he was doing. Ripping his soul away from his body.

 

 

The vision of Kari did not act the same way as Nynaeve and Egwene, even after Rand denied it. It wasn't until Rand attacked the tormentors of Kari that she disappeared, and she did so in a manner completely unlike that of the disappearance of the visions of Nynaeve and Egwene.

They don't need to act the same way. Maybe it's even possible that Rand willed her to stay "just a little longer".

 

 

 

 

[Roxinos]

Provide a quote, or it hasn't happened.

 

I do think that Moghedien was using all of her strength purely on the cutting weave, but you cannot deny that Lanfear was throwing a million other things at Rand as well as trying to shield him during their fight.

 

It seems I was mistaken, however, in my description of the shield and severing weaves feeling different. Messes up my whole argument, of course. I'll have to rethink this whole thing and get back to you.

 

I still think Rand and Nynaeve would need to counter any weave they face. I've never read anything that would cause be to think anything else. If I ever read anything else, I would be very surprised. And if they needn't counter those weaves, then why would lanny & moggy bother with weaving them?

 

Never said they didn't. The point is that you don't know the amount of Power being put into the weaves of severance/shielding and that you cannot reliably indicate that they are always putting their fullest strength into each and every weave.

 

The DO would still be in charge of the Nae'blis, or?

 

Of course he would. But Rand would be below the Nae'blis and thus below Ishamael.

 

I've never said that it meant that he wasn't ripping Rand's soul away from his body. I have even said that I think that it was exactly that he was doing. Ripping his soul away from his body.

 

Ya, I know. When I mentioned that I was basically saying that the rest of our argument relating to Ishamael was kinda pointless.

 

They don't need to act the same way. Maybe it's even possible that Rand willed her to stay "just a little longer".

 

Maybe. But there's nothing in the passage to suggest that. There's nothing to suggest his will had anything to do with the vision. Why would it if it was simply something conjured by Ishamael and not the real Kari?

 

Again, there's too much ambiguity.

[RobertAlexWillis]

What a shame ... I seem to have thoroughly derailed this thread.  My experiment is a failure.

 

My bad, Luckers.

 

For the record, let me say that there is enough ambiguity to argue either way about the relative effort needed to cut off "larger" flows of the Power.  I was incorrect in stating that there was not. 

 

But what is not ambiguous at all is that in every case we have recorded, the person defending him or herself always weaves something to prevent the shield from cutting them off from the Source.  So, the relative difficulty is ultimately moot.  Drawing more of the Power may make shielding/severing more difficult, but is not, by itself, sufficient to stop someone trying to cut someone off from the Source.  It just gives you more time and strength to respond, by weaving a defense.  Which would be why none of the Forsaken tried it at the cleansing, etc.  Thor claimed that "There is however very strong evidence that drawing on the power more strongly protects you from being severed."  That is not so.  Drawing more Power may give you time to defend yourself, but does NOT protect you by itself.  You still have to weave something, and in the Stone, against Ba'alzamon, Rand did not.

 

(As a side note: Something can be just as easy to cut through, effort wise, and still take longer because of its relative size.  That would make it "harder" by making it take longer, not necessarily increasing the effort needed.  But we're limited here by using physical terms to describe a non-physical process, which does make it ambiguous.)

 

Also, the Kari al'Thor bit seems pretty clear ... if she was a fake like the others, why didn't she disappear when the fake Egwene and Nynaeve did?  Why did she thank Rand and still call him son after she was freed from Ba'alzamon?  I simply don't see any reason to doubt her identity in the text.

 

Finally, regarding Ishamael/Ba'alzamon's identity crisis ... its just that, an identity crisis.  Sometimes he acts like he thinks he actually is Shai'tan, and others he seems clearer on the distinction.  There has been speculation, given the Dark One's supposed philosophical leanings, that the "price" we hear about for using the True Power is an eventual loss of will and self-identity.  Given Ishamael's extensive use of the True Power, his identity seems to be mixed with the Dark One's.  It is very ambiguous in the text, because its ambiguous in his head.  And let me say again, this particular line of thought is SPECULATIVE.  In this case, I am certainly not claiming this is the only option, just one that seems to fit.