The Bodyswap Theory

[Osan`gar]

good theory but i want to know what place if any lews therins consciousness plays in this scenario will he die for rand? will he take morinds body. sence there is some sort of connect it may be possible for him to do thsat and he die instead of rand. the prophecy says the dragon will die do they mean rand or lews therin???

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't think that Lews Therin's persona can be separated from Rand's in the sense of being put into a different body.  This is just my personal opinion, but I think that the effect of the taint is to remove the effects of time on a soul, which allows connection between "past" personas and the "present" persona.  Time is integral to our perception of reality, so removal of the effects of time would certainly be a form of madness.  Lews Therin cannot die without Rand dying, however, if the effects of the taint can somehow be removed (or reversed) then Lews Therin's persona would again be relegated to the "past", and so the effect would be like death.  But Rand and Lews Therin are the same soul; they will not end up in separate bodies, in my opinion.  If Rand does switch bodies, Lews Therin will go with him.

[Majsju]

Souls can not be split, so even if Rand should go and put his soul into Bela (something far more likely than Luckers ludicrous "theory"), LTT would tag along.

[Luckers]

Souls can not be split

 

As far as we know--and yes, Semirhage stated reintergration as the method of dealing with it.

 

But still, many other things not known of have occured. Maybe this is possible too.

[Nightstrike]

RJ said that souls can not be split.

[Luckers]

Ok? Quote?

[Nightstrike]

Dragoncon '05 reports (copied and pasted from wotmania):

Q97: A couple of related questions on souls. Can they be split? Is it true you can meet yourself in the worlds of If? Is that a copy of the soul, a reflection, or the same soul living in different worlds?

 

RJ: I think I will have to give you a RAFO on this, except for the part, souls cannot be split. But the other, I think I will have to give you a RAFO because I may be doing something with that.

 

[Luckers]

Cool, thanks.

[Charlz Fel]

This is just my personal opinion, but I think that the effect of the taint is to remove the effects of time on a soul, which allows connection between "past" personas and the "present" persona.  Time is integral to our perception of reality, so removal of the effects of time would certainly be a form of madness.  Lews Therin cannot die without Rand dying, however, if the effects of the taint can somehow be removed (or reversed) then Lews Therin's persona would again be relegated to the "past", and so the effect would be like death.

 

At some point, Rand has a memory of Lews Therin's madness, from Lews Therin's point of view.  I don't remember where it is, so I can't come up with the quote, but I do remember it did not seem at all like the effect of "time" on Lews Therin's soul had simply been removed.  It was something like, "Part of him adored her.  Part of him wanted to save her from any harm at all, even what he himself was about to do.  So many parts of him, . . . ."

 

Can anyone supply the actual quote?  I think it might have been when Rand dreams Lews Therin's dreams, but I don't know where that is.

[Jethro]

I don't think that Lews Therin's persona can be separated from Rand's in the sense of being put into a different body.  This is just my personal opinion, but I think that the effect of the taint is to remove the effects of time on a soul, which allows connection between "past" personas and the "present" persona.  Time is integral to our perception of reality, so removal of the effects of time would certainly be a form of madness.  Lews Therin cannot die without Rand dying, however, if the effects of the taint can somehow be removed (or reversed) then Lews Therin's persona would again be relegated to the "past", and so the effect would be like death.  But Rand and Lews Therin are the same soul; they will not end up in separate bodies, in my opinion.  If Rand does switch bodies, Lews Therin will go with him.

 

Regarding the bit I have highlighted, I disagree. But I am not attacking your opinion. I will explain.

 

Unlike most people on here, I actually entertain the idea that Semirhage is capable of telling the truth despite her being Chosen. I believe what she said about Lews Therin in KoD, I see that scene as RJs way of saying "You readers have wondered about this long enough, this is how it is" and provided Graendal as the source via Semirhage. According to Graendal, this type of madness is very rare; while hearing a voice is common, the voice being a real voice is very rare indeed. I find it unlikely that the other time(s) she encountered this kind of madness was after the Chosen broke free, meaning she had to have encountered it before she was bound. Before the Taint came into existence. The fact that the Taint had its part to play in bringing it about is only relevant in Rands case and Rands case alone as far as we know. I find it very hard to believe that there are other male channelers out there who talk to their past lives in their head. Saying that though, of course RJ may be saving something regarding this for the last book, perhaps the Aes Sedai will begin examining the souls of the bound Ashaman and figure something out about them hearing their past life's voice, but I doubt it.

 

Regarding the rest though, about Lews Therin in Rands head, I agree. If Rand does end up in Moridins body, Lews Therin will go with him I think, and the only way Rand will stop hearing the voice is for his madness to be completely removed one way or another. Unless there are brain surgeons on here who want to say something bizarre like madness being something of the brain, and Rands brain wont go across, but I myself would disagree with that theory.

[MikeRiley]

Yeah, she wasn't lying when she said it was a form of madness. She had every reason not to lie will still causing dissent in Rand's forces. You saw how they looked at him when she said that. "Your hero is insane, what will you do now?"

[Jethro]

About time as well! Anyone else hoping that Moridin will somehow talk to Lews Therin through his link to Rand?

[Gentled Ben]

Well, Cadsuane indicated that hearing voices is a common trait of the Taint madness, yet we see that that madness takes Fedwin Morr in a different way, and Taim tells of a man who had a sudden psychosis about spiders crawling on him, so maybe voices are the norm, but not the rule.

[ROB_88]

now that were on the madness topic, i've wonder how does the "destroy the world madness" seen in the breaking appear to the channeler.

 

the possibilites i see so far are

1. hearing voices telling you to blow shit up

2. seeing things (like a group of trollocs) that need to be blown up but are not actually there

3. simply loosing contol of the power and it blows shit up on it's own

[Charlz Fel]

now that were on the madness topic, i've wonder how does the "destroy the world madness" seen in the breaking appear to the channeler.

 

the possibilites i see so far are

1. hearing voices telling you to blow shit up

2. seeing things (like a group of trollocs) that need to be blown up but are not actually there

3. simply loosing contol of the power and it blows shit up on it's own

 

We have an idea of how LTT felt when he killed Ilyena--see my previous post.  We also know from the Rhuidean sequence that one powerful male channeler was distracted for almost an hour by Da'shain Aiel singing, before he destroyed the city.  We know what Fedwin Morr's madness looked like--he had the mind of a child, and was about to tear stones from the palace walls to build something to protect Min.  When Rand uses Callandor, he tends to form immediate, absurd and arrogont beliefs--in one case, he thought he could bring a dead girl back to life (in the Stone of Tear); in another, he forgot what he was doing, addressing himself directly to Shai'tan and starting to destroy his own army as well as the Seanchan (end of PoD).  When people go mad at the Black Tower and have to be put down, it takes a multitude of forms.

 

I think it's probably different for every channeler.  I'd imagine that all of the ways you describe take place, plus a multitude of faulty chains of reasoning.  (These people are evil and must be destroyed.  I need to lash out--to destroy the Dark One, to save the people of the city, to make these spiders under my skin go away... only, being insane, I don't see the harm I'm doing, or realize that my actions do not help my purpose.  Maybe some of them even become sadistic, or start trying to avenge imaginary slights, or acquire any number of other standard disorders, only magnified malignantly.)

[Jethro]

My beief is that they arent always aware of what theyre doing. Remember when Rand was striking at the Seanchan with Callandor, he started going crazy like Lews Therin, giving it "You cannot strike at me! I am the Dragon Reborn!" Do you remember? Bashere brought Rand to his senses and Rand realised he had been shooting lightening in all directions, injuring his own men and whatnot, without realising it. I imagine it to have been like that. Lashing out with the Power without realising.

[Charlz Fel]

My beief is that they arent always aware of what theyre doing. Remember when Rand was striking at the Seanchan with Callandor, he started going crazy like Lews Therin, giving it "You cannot strike at me! I am the Dragon Reborn!" Do you remember? Bashere brought Rand to his senses and Rand realised he had been shooting lightening in all directions, injuring his own men and whatnot, without realising it. I imagine it to have been like that. Lashing out with the Power without realising.

 

The "not realizing" proceeds further--remember, Lews Therin did not realize Ilyena was dead, even as he stepped over her body, until Ishamael healed him temporarily.

[MikeRiley]

Regarding that example with the lightning and Callandor.. I took that as equal parts madness and the fact that the weaves weren't acting the way they should. Dashiva warned Rand against this before the battle.

[Osan`gar]

Souls can not be split

 

As far as we know--and yes, Semirhage stated reintergration as the method of dealing with it.

 

But still, many other things not known of have occured. Maybe this is possible too.

 

you may not be able to split souls but there must be some merit to the concept of separating different minds. rand and LT each have their own mind, memeories and mental states. remember LT was mad before rand started getting loopy; also LT does not seem to be affected by the violent nausea which affects rand when he seizes saidin. i think that LT and rand will either be separated or LT will be killed/silenced/ or otherwise removed at some point. need thoughts and opinions on this.

[Luckers]

This is just my personal opinion, but I think that the effect of the taint is to remove the effects of time on a soul, which allows connection between "past" personas and the "present" persona.  Time is integral to our perception of reality, so removal of the effects of time would certainly be a form of madness.  Lews Therin cannot die without Rand dying, however, if the effects of the taint can somehow be removed (or reversed) then Lews Therin's persona would again be relegated to the "past", and so the effect would be like death.

 

I disagree. The Taint destablizes the mind, allowing for pre-existing mental states to become genuine issues. This is why it causes so many varying states of madness--is is not a madness in itself, it is simply a catalyst. It causes for madness to occur--the specific madness depends on the individual, not the taint.

 

Hearing real voices is a natural form of mental delusion, as such the Taint can cause it. And does. So too does it cause mental regression, as with Morr and his reversion to childhood. Or paranoid delusion, as with the man who had spiders crawling all over him. The Taint is not a style of madness, it is a cause of mental instability. The way it manifests is specific to the individual.

 

My beief is that they arent always aware of what theyre doing. Remember when Rand was striking at the Seanchan with Callandor, he started going crazy like Lews Therin, giving it "You cannot strike at me! I am the Dragon Reborn!" Do you remember? Bashere brought Rand to his senses and Rand realised he had been shooting lightening in all directions, injuring his own men and whatnot, without realising it. I imagine it to have been like that. Lashing out with the Power without realising.

 

It is stated that the use of Callandor, without a link to two women with one guiding the flows, induces wildness of the mind. It's a result of its lack of a buffer, and is a completely seperate issue.

 

The "not realizing" proceeds further--remember, Lews Therin did not realize Ilyena was dead, even as he stepped over her body, until Ishamael healed him temporarily.

 

The 'not realizing' is individual. It is not a trait of the taint, it is a trait of Lews Therin's specific madness. Though again in the instance of Callandor the 'not realizing' was the result of Callandors lack of a buffer, and the subsequent effect on the taint. A seperate issue.

 

you may not be able to split souls but there must be some merit to the concept of separating different minds. rand and LT each have their own mind, memeories and mental states. remember LT was mad before rand started getting loopy; also LT does not seem to be affected by the violent nausea which affects rand when he seizes saidin. i think that LT and rand will either be separated or LT will be killed/silenced/ or otherwise removed at some point. need thoughts and opinions on this.

 

Unfortunately that would be spliting souls. There is no was to cut it other than that.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Semi-colons are awesome.

If semi-colons are great' date=' are colons twice as great? [/quote']

Hmm, technically that in turn would mean that commas are only half as great.

While tho'se are all good punctuation mark's, I dont think enough appreciation i's given to the humble apo'strophe, which i's 'so good at 'separating the letter 's from any previou's letter's in the 'same word.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Excuse me, everyone.

 

*chucks Iyarri-sama into a vacuole*

 

There, we're all set now.

[Jethro]

My beief is that they arent always aware of what theyre doing. Remember when Rand was striking at the Seanchan with Callandor, he started going crazy like Lews Therin, giving it "You cannot strike at me! I am the Dragon Reborn!" Do you remember? Bashere brought Rand to his senses and Rand realised he had been shooting lightening in all directions, injuring his own men and whatnot, without realising it. I imagine it to have been like that. Lashing out with the Power without realising.

 

The "not realizing" proceeds further--remember, Lews Therin did not realize Ilyena was dead, even as he stepped over her body, until Ishamael healed him temporarily.

 

Yep. And when Taim appeared and gave him the Seal, Rand was about to break it. I dont think Lews Therin took over here, since Lews Therin has never taken hold of Rands body as far as we know, only the Source. It was Rand not being aware of what he was doing. Loopy