Why "The Dragon"?

[Beli Tsar]

So I've read through the series about 4 times now (starting with my first time in the summer of '06) and have always wondered why is it that Lews Therin Telamon was named "the Dragon" in the AOL? Not sure if RJ ever mentioned it, but I've always been curious.

I also remember reading in the prologue of TEOTW where Ishy relates to Lews Therin how he embraced the name given him "Betrayer of Hope" where as LTT did not embrace being called "Dragon". Anyone know why that is?

[Vemynal]

this is a complete guess...but I think it actually is hinted at in book 11

 

Audra tell Mat that she is working on her 'dragons' and her 'dragon eggs', or i.e. cannons and cannon balls.

 

I think maybe that the "dragon" in the old age translated out to something along 'cannon' or 'explosive destructive force'.

 

It would make sense that Therin would not like being referred to as "the destroyer"

 

I know its a reach but hey^^

[Dragon21]

Why not the Dragon? lol

Being named Dragon is excellent.

 

 

Not a bad guess there Vemynal. Doesn't seemed too far fetched.

[42Bonzo88]

    Of course, most readers of fantasy see 'dragon' and depending on their point of view they think any number of adjectives. Massive, Destructive, Intelligent, Forbidding, Dangerous, etc. But, maybe during the AOL it was a slang or dirty word that you wouldn't want to be associated with. Or maybe LTT didn't feel he deserved the title for another reason.

 

    I would definitely think it was cool to be called Dragon, but I'm so unlike one that I would feel rather foolish if I was known by it.

[Luckers]

Because thats the symbol he took for his banner. Much the same as how Iterulde took the Wolf upon becoming a noble, and came to be called the Wolf.

[Asmo]

Actually, the Dragon is a prominent symbol for the male in Taoism, in which the whole concept of the duality of the One Power is based on.

[Luckers]

Mmm. And in the Dao De Jin itself theres a phrase that is very close to 'the dragon flew on the winds of the storm of desitiny, and his peace was the peace of the sword'. But that being said similar phrases appear in both the book of the yellow emperor, and in the journey to the west--the first of confuscianism, the second chinese folk religion. And thats just off the top of my head. Dragon symbolism in the east is everywhere.

 

Beyond which, the duality of the One Power is not based on Taoism--RJ himself directly stated that came about because of musings of his on having a magic women could wield, but not men. It was purely practical--for all that he used the ying yang symbol, Taoist dualism was nothing like what was described in the books.

 

But nevertheless, he was named dragon because he took the dragon for his symbol--RJ probably meant a lot by it, but the naming itself--purely casual.

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

The Dragon is the being that is spun out by the wheel to face the DO. The name isn't specific to LTT. So I don't think it was actually 'given to him in AoL' .

Since we have prophecies about Rand, there may well have been prophecies about LTT before LTT's birth, identifying him as the Dragon.

 

 

Also, one of the things I like best about WOT is that name. When I picked up the books and saw the word 'Dragon' it was confusing and I expected the traditional beast. But RJ used the word in an AWESOME way. I love it. It sounds so fantasy-heroish. ;)

[Asmo]

Mmm. And in the Dao De Jin itself theres a phrase that is very close to 'the dragon flew on the winds of the storm of desitiny, and his peace was the peace of the sword'. But that being said similar phrases appear in both the book of the yellow emperor, and in the journey to the west--the first of confuscianism, the second chinese folk religion. And thats just off the top of my head. Dragon symbolism in the east is everywhere.

 

Beyond which, the duality of the One Power is not based on Taoism--RJ himself directly stated that came about because of musings of his on having a magic women could wield, but not men. It was purely practical--for all that he used the ying yang symbol, Taoist dualism was nothing like what was described in the books.

 

But nevertheless, he was named dragon because he took the dragon for his symbol--RJ probably meant a lot by it, but the naming itself--purely casual.

 

 

 

Intentional or not, it has way too many similarities to be random. RJ has admitted to studying the Eastern religions. The way the concept is portrayed is the same, at least.

 

At any rate, it's symbolism. It doesn't have to have some exact meaning. But the people in the Third Age had never seen an actual dragon. At least for those who remarked on it, the first time they saw the thing was on Rand's arms.

[Luckers]

The way the concept is protrayed... im not sure what you mean by that? Because quite frankly in none of the issue in this thread are the concepts protrayed the same....

[Asmo]

The way the concept is protrayed... im not sure what you mean by that? Because quite frankly in none of the issue in this thread are the concepts protrayed the same....

 

Except for the way the men grasp saidin, which describes the male element of Taoism, and the way the women touch saidar which is almost identical to the features of the female element? That the most prominent male channeler of the Ages has the title of Dragon, when the dragon is the dominant symbol of the male element? Not to mention the actual symbol for yin and yang? The duality of the One Power, the way male and female complement each other? Sure, that's not present only in Taoism, but unlike in other religions, it is the dominant element there. The Wheel of Time? The Great Serpent? The cycle of life and rebirth? All those hint at Buddhism, Taoism and the relevant culture.

 

To not notice the similarities would be absurd beyond question for me.

[Luckers]

Except for the way the men grasp saidin, which describes the male element of Taoism, and the way the women touch saidar which is almost identical to the features of the female element?

 

Because the male is the active, and the female is the inactive? What of the contradiction, of wu-wei? Lao Tzu directly mocked his own comments of such by then stating that the male could only achieve through inaction. His comments, and the resultant philosophy, makes its point in irony, in contradiction, in joke. The white is only white through black, death is only death through life. Lao Tzu did not preach dualism, he pretended dualism to preach unity--a direct slap at confuscianism. Indeed, without understanding THAT duality, looking at Taoism is pointless.

 

You'd do much better with Zoroasterianism. It preaches dualism.

 

That the most prominent male channeler of the Ages has the title of Dragon, when the dragon is the dominant symbol of the male element?

 

It's not actually, the most dominant symbol of the male element is the female--specifically Maiden Ho encompasses this. Not that thats really accurate either. She becomes dominant through making the Holy Immortal ejaculate in her... but meh.

 

The duality of the One Power, the way male and female complement each other? Sure, that's not present only in Taoism, but unlike in other religions, it is the dominant element there.

 

Compliment and fight each other--true, that does lie in the ideal of Taoism...

 

Neverthless, it doesn't come from it. RJ stated that.

 

To not notice the similarities would be absurd beyond question for me.

 

Go look at Zoroasterianism. Or Manicheism. You think you've found fun connections in Taoism--wow boy, your just beginning.

[nashdude]

The Dragon is the being that is spun out by the wheel to face the DO. The name isn't specific to LTT. So I don't think it was actually 'given to him in AoL' .

Since we have prophecies about Rand, there may well have been prophecies about LTT before LTT's birth, identifying him as the Dragon.

 

Ahhhh... I LOVE this! It would certainly explain his aversion to being called the Dragon---much the same way that Rand hated the idea himself at the start. It's quite possible that LTT believed (like Rand) that he was his own man, and hated the thought of bending to a preset destiny.

 

Kudos!

[Luckers]

The Dragon is the being that is spun out by the wheel to face the DO. The name isn't specific to LTT. So I don't think it was actually 'given to him in AoL' .

Since we have prophecies about Rand, there may well have been prophecies about LTT before LTT's birth, identifying him as the Dragon.

 

Ahhhh... I LOVE this! It would certainly explain his aversion to being called the Dragon---much the same way that Rand hated the idea himself at the start. It's quite possible that LTT believed (like Rand) that he was his own man, and hated the thought of bending to a preset destiny.

 

Kudos!

 

 

 

The name is specific to LTT--other 'Dragons' have not worn it. Rand is technically the Dragon Reborn--linked to LTT. Much the same way 'Birgitte' is not a name linked to the soul, it was merely the name of one of her incarnations--the one that became the most popular, and spread accross to be the name for her other incarnations in other stories--not all fo them, mind. Thom reveals that. Graendal herself states there has never been a soul born specifically according to prophecy before Rand