Something else...

[Bob T Dwarf]

... I'm not having any luck making sense of...

 

Taim was captured in Saldaea after he fell unconscious when Rand fought Baalzy at Falme.  That was in mid-fall of 998NE.  IIRC, that was also the year of the never-ending summer.

 

Like all other False Dragons he was consigned to AS and their Warders and troops to be taken to Tar Valon and gentled.

 

In late spring of 999NE, more than six months after his capture, word finally reaches Siuan in TV that Taim has escaped. ( Supposedly broken free by loyal supporters somewhere in the Black Hills ).  She sends a dozen AS and 1000 troops to retake him.

 

Logain had been captured in the spring of 998NE.  In Ghealdan.  Barely more than two months later, after being paraded through every city, town, village, and hamlet along the way, just to prove that they really had him, Logain had made it to TV and been gentled already.  From the maps, it is farther from Ghealdan to TV than it is from Saldaea to TV.  Terrain seems to be about equally difficult.  The road network about equal as well.   With the never-ending summer, there would have been no winter storms or snow to impede progress.

 

All of that raises a few questions:

1.  Where are those 12 AS now?  What about the 1000 troops?

2.  Why had there been no alarm about his whereabouts in TV before word came?

3.  What happened to those loyal followers?

 

 

[cloglord]

I've thought these same thoughts before, but have not found satisfactory answers to all of them yet either.

 

But I think that the most cohesive answer I've heard so far, (it happens to be my answer btw, ;) )is that Alviarin eats pigeons for dinner.

 

I'm pretty sure that the BA has complete access to the pigeon cotes at the WT.  The lack of info about Taim's whereabouts, and the time it takes for word of his escape are no coincidence.  The BA is controlling how fast information gets to the WT.  In the specific case of Taim, we have very good evidence that there was a concerted effort to keep word of Taim's escape hush.  Not only did word not reach the tower of his escape until the day that the tower split, a specific warning of an attempt to break Taim free never made it to Siuan.  At the beginning of TDR, Moraine flat out says that she sent 3 pigeons to Siuan warning about the plot to free Taim.  She says that she sent 3 to make sure that the message got there.  Yet in later scenes from a Siuan POV we get the information that Moraine has only recieved one message from Moraine since Falme.  That one message was the one about Rand taking the stone, and was the one that tricked siuan into setting the hall into motion, and then having to hold thenm back when no more information came through.  So we know for a fact that Moraine sent three pigeons and siuan didn't get the word from any of them.  If you assume that the BA has control of the pigeon network, then it makes sense that word of Taim's escape didn't arrive until after it wouldn't do any good.

 

Another indication of the BA's ability to control information comes from the amount of time it took for word of Dumai's wells and the failed AS attack on the BT to get out to the tower.  If you consider it carefully, we only see reports of these events coming to the ajah heads after Elaida has demoted Alviarin and had her punished.  Alviarin was keeping word of these events hush, to prevent elaida from being thrown out of office.  It was only after the sudden arrival of the rebels and Alviarin's demotion that info about these events has come to the hall.  Only after they would further weaken the  Aes Sedai by providing the tower side with proof they had a horrible Amrylin, but no way to remove her without giving over to the rebels.

 

As to the location of the 12 sisters, many think that they are the sisters with the borderlanders.  I'm not sure, it is possible that they were never sent at all, but rather became the first order of Siuan's that was ignored in the wake of the split.  Even where they sent, I think it is likely that Alivarin may have arrainged for those 12 to be BA, which would of course bode ill for the borderlanders. 

 

As for Taim's "loyal followers,"  it is certainly possible that they wre simply the type of people who generally flocked to a false dragon, and they have since returned home.  Personally, I get the feeling that the black hills are aptly named, and would make an ideal place for the types of isolated Darkfriend villages that have been rumored to exist since the begginings of the book.  I started a thread about the idea of the balck hills being a nest of vipers once, If you're interested in reading it, click  Here

[Bob T Dwarf]

In a general sense I like the Alviarin eats pigeons idea.  I just don't think it covers, here.

 

Siuan maintains a position of some power and influence with the Rebels prior to being healed because of her extensive network of private informants.  Each of the Ajahs also have their own sources.  It seems likely to me that there are multiple dovecotes ( I know, I know, but it's more elegant than pigeon coops ), so Alviarin wouldn't be able to subvert all of the info flowing in.

 

Now, lots of things happen offscreen that we haven't been told about, yet, but Taim's whereabouts seem too important for that.  A big part of what puzzles me is that he hasn't shown up and yet nobody seems concerned.  Then, suddenly, it's, "Oops, lets lock that barn now that the horse has been stolen."

 

Siuan has never struck me as somebody who was either that careless or that forgetful.

 

Not only that, but it's another 5-6 months before Taim shows up in Caemlyn.  It's like there's some kind of temporal vortex in the Black Hills.  Go in on Tuesday, disappear, pop up six months later and then disappear for another six months before you can make your way out.

[Elwinn Taron]

First, I have always agreed with Cloglord that the Black Ajah is interfering with the Dovecotes.  I wish I could help with the rest of your questions, but I really don't have any idea.  However, perhaps this will help with your timeline:  There WAS a winter after Falme.  Rand spent it in the Mountains of Mists, with Moiraine, Lan, Perrin, Min and the Sheinarins.  Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene and Verin spent it traveling back to Tar Valon with Hurin.  Hope this helps.

[cloglord]

As to why Siuan wasn't receiving regular updates about the Taim itinerary, I can only put forth the idea that the black hills are far less populated than the areas where Logain was brought through.  No towns = no dovecotes = no messages.

 

It seems likely to me that there are multiple dovecotes ( I know, I know, but it's more elegant than pigeon coops ), so Alviarin wouldn't be able to subvert all of the info flowing in.

 

I've thought this myself, and yet it seems to me that the BA is managing to do just that.  Either there really is only one central pigeonhole, or the BA sisters in the ajahs have turned over the info about who is running the E&E networks, and they've managed to find a way to subvert the flow through the individual ajahs.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's pretty clear that individuals ( ala Siuan ) as well as the Ajahs keep not just their sources hidden, but also the flow of info from those sources.  Alviarin might be able to eat all the pigeons that come directly to the Tower, but she would not be able to do so with those that don't.  A shop here, a farm there, etc.

 

But, not only no word on their progress but no concern about where they are and why it's taking so long.  Really puzzling.

[metria31183]

Sorry for interupting the discussion, but would someone please tell me what IIRC is?  Sorry for my ignorance.

[Bob T Dwarf]

If I Remember Correctly

[metria31183]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHH....Well don't I feel dumb for not catching that :P

[mralexcummings]

This is a little far fetched but it might be plausible.

What if Alviarin has a weave to either attract the doves to a location or to make them forget their location destination after they are set off from TV. Lots of possibilities like her having a ter'angreal or some trick with a spiritweave or something. And all of a sudden she has a dove army of informants.

 

 

p.s.

started joking around with it there at the end after I lost momentum.  ;D

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yeah, that quicksand sneaks up on ya, doesn't it.

 

You can just be standing there admiring the view, and suddenly you find yourself neck deep and going nowhere.  I never will figure out how quicksand can be so sneaky.

[havoc110]

Ok Bob, this one's fired from the hip, so it may be completely unfounded.

 

Maybe Taim got lost in the shuffle politically.  The Reds were making their power grab by propping up Logain, then going after "their man".

 

This power grab continued and led up to the coup vs. Siuan.

 

So while orders were issued, those orders may have primarily fallen

into the Red's camp.  (That's their department, right?)  So maybe

they just dragged their feet where Taim was concerned.  Because

Red's resources were already tied up in the "Logain" operation.

 

To state a different way:

Why go capture False Dragons, when we can make our own, and

seize power that way?  (Think of False Dragons as "weapons of mass destruction".

There I go again, I just can't help it, sorry).

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's self-evident that Taim fell through a major crack of some kind.

 

I just can't figure out why.  He doesn't arrive in Rand's orbit soon enough after Lanfear disappears to be the new keeper of Rand's leash.  He never makes any attempt to get close enough to Rand to exert any influence over Rand's activities.

 

So, what's the real purpose behind the really queer timing involved in the major events in Taim's life?

 

Or was it just a major oversight by Jordan?  Did he just lose track of how unreasonably long it was taking for those major events to play out?

[havoc110]

I was just trying to lay out a reason for the "crack"

from the Tar Valon viewpoint.

 

It doesn't do much to alleivate the timeline issues, though.

 

Perhaps Taim escaped, and the Reds just held onto that info,

knowing that it would detract from their high approval ratings generated

by their capture of Logain.

 

So, Taim's escape goes unnoticed for some time.

 

Meanwhile, Taim enrolls and graduates from "Uncle Dem's School for

Up-N-Coming Male Channelling Darkfriends", tops in his class.

 

 

[havoc110]

Regarding your original 3 questions:

 

1)  How to be sure that the sisters and soldiers were sent?  Again

the Red's just might have reasons two bury those orders at the bottom

of the stack.

 

2)  Again, maybe the Reds cover up their mishandling of the situation.

Control of messages in and out of the Tower obviously makes this a lot

easier.

 

3)  "Loyal Followers" could either be a fabrication, or just a bunch of

thugs following Taim for their own profit.  Dem could have sprung him

by himself and perhaps no-one caught on at the time. 

 

After all, the Blues have the real Dragon, the Reds have their false

Dragon, and the Dark has their False Dragon, too.

[cloglord]

As far as why Siuan is not fussed over no information, we see that she is fussed over a lack of communication in regards to Rand, so one of two things could be happening here.

 

1.  Suian is recieving regular reports about Taim up to the point of his escape, and so we don't see an on screen appearance of the reports ala "'Man I'm really glad the sisters with Taim are sending regular reports,' thinks Suian"

 

2.  Suian is so focused on the fact that she's not getting information about Rand, that not getting info about Taim is secondary, The whole no news is good news mentality.

 

 

What if Alviarin has a weave to either attract the doves to a location or to make them forget their location destination after they are set off from TV.

 

I really like this idea, we already know that one of the Blue Ajah weaves allows the use of the OP to cause a swarm of a particular kind of creature.  What if the BA has adapted this weave into a means of intercepting all pigeons coming into TV, deciding what messages get passed on, and which ones don't.  This would quite neatly explain the means by which the BA is accomplishing what it apparently is accomplishing.

 

Maybe Taim got lost in the shuffle politically.  The Reds were making their power grab by propping up Logain, then going after "their man".

 

I thought that the "Reds propping up Logain," was a baldfaced lie that Suian cooked up to prevent the reunification of the tower under Elaida.  I don't think that the Reds actually did what they are accused of here.

[havoc110]

Then why is Logain himself relating the story?

 

Siuan's already been deposed and stilled, what's in it for Logain?

Logain's interests don't coincide with Salidar's interests.

[Darth_Andrea]

Ok Bob, this one's fired from the hip, so it may be completely unfounded.

 

Maybe Taim got lost in the shuffle politically.  The Reds were making their power grab by propping up Logain, then going after "their man".

 

This power grab continued and led up to the coup vs. Siuan.

 

So while orders were issued, those orders may have primarily fallen

into the Red's camp.  (That's their department, right?)  So maybe

they just dragged their feet where Taim was concerned.  Because

Red's resources were already tied up in the "Logain" operation.

 

To state a different way:

Why go capture False Dragons, when we can make our own, and

seize power that way?  (Think of False Dragons as "weapons of mass destruction".

There I go again, I just can't help it, sorry).

 

 

Umm...I'm fairly sure thw whole thing about the reds makeing Logain a false dragon was a total fabrication on Siuan's part. She made it up and got Logain to go along with it in order to bring Elida down. And at the time before he was healed and his ability to channel restored it was his only way of getting some kind of revenge for being genteled if not againsts the whole white tower at least against the reds.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]       

[JenLenaMom]

Then why is Logain himself relating the story?

 

Siuan's already been deposed and stilled, what's in it for Logain?

Logain's interests don't coincide with Salidar's interests.

 

One word: REVENGE

[Bob T Dwarf]

Logain is less than enamored with the Tower in general and Reds in particular.  It may be nothing but personal spite on his part.

 

Logain doesn't impress me as someone who is terribly concerned about political realities other than how they pertain to him, personally.

[havoc110]

That's what I get for firing from the hip...