The importance of Illian in AMoL

[cloglord]

What? Domon had twelve ships

Quote please?  Doman provided 50 men as a regular bodyguard for nyn and elayne in Tanchio and raised a small army for the riots that followed.  If he has that many crewmen in Tanchio, how many boats and crews did he have actually doing their jobs or docked in Illian?

 

Domon's 'fleet' were lost to him,

  Lost to him when he was stuck in Ebou Dar as property, it doesn't mean that they were all destroyed. Remember, Domon was made property, but his wife was raised to the nobility at the same time.  The chance in circumstance did not alter Domon's operations to any great degree.  He was free to communicate with his boats, and the crews under his control were even allowed to trade freeley with Ebou Dar under Seanchan occupation.

 

I'm sorry, but the idea that Mat could move the Band by river is absurd. At best sixty men could fit on a rivership--and thats pushing it--so he would need at leas 166 ships. Perhaps not my thousand ships, but still impossible.

 

First you assume that Mat needs to move the band in one trip.  Second you assume that Mat would load every last one of them onto a boat and take it south.  The example I gave earlier was of Mat using ships to carry supplies for the band to speed thier progress.  Such a plan would not work were he going to Camelyn, because a trip up river would take him to Whitebridge, out of the way, and then still nessecitate a march through unwelcoming territory.  Where he to use riverboats to transport smaller groups and supplies down river, he could march his men down along the river in the manner that I've already described, in a much quicker manner into a friendly country.

 

Nope. Sorry mate, they stated directly that the roadblock is for the Aes Sedai out of fear for a war between either Aes Sedai, or Aes Sedai and Asha'men on Andoran soil. They never make any comments directed about the dragonsworn, never oppose him, and never indicate that they would. Besides, the other half of the band entered Andor--if they were there to stop them, then they would have stopped them.

If you choose to miss the subtext, just because it convienient for you to, go ahead, but I am absolutely sure that if the band had tried to march North during that month of rest for the Salidar contingent, the Andorans would have tried to stop them.  Since those Andorans have now left to go to Camelyn, they are in no position to stop anyone from crossing the border.

 

Murandy, actually. I thought it was Illian because of Mat's comment in chapter 11 of KoD about heading east if Vanin knew a path--it was never stated that he didn't, and the next chapter it brings up Vanin knowing a path through the Damona Mountains, and i assumed, but in fact the path led to Murandy, not Illian. As for him traveling to Andor--the other half of the band is already in Andor as stated by Talmanes in chapter 25 of KoD, plus he has to reach the Tower of Ghenjei, and besides he can't head anywhere else--Murandy, then Andor.

  Actually the band can go somewhere else, Illian.  he's through the Damonas now, all he has to do is turn left and they'll get there eventually.

 

I see Elayne being prissy with him for marching dragonsworn through her land, but not much else. Aside from which thats already done with--half the band is already in Andor, as stated by Talmanes.

...i count the fact that the other half of the Band is already there...

As for him traveling to Andor--the other half of the band is already in Andor as stated by Talmanes in chapter 25 of KoD, plus he has to reach the Tower of Ghenjei, and besides he can't head anywhere else--Murandy, then Andor.

 

 

I was waiting for you to mention the part of the band that is in Andor.  While it is true that when Talmanes last saw them they were headed towards Andor we do not know for sure that they have gotten there.  Even if they are, Mat did not order them there, and considering the close ties to Elayne could explain the situation as such and withdraw them, down the tributary of the Manatherendrelle, to,...Illian.

 

As for the rest of it, my point stands. For him to do it through Illian would need him to approach Andor anyway--its pointless, when he could just do it through Andor. It was you who originally made a big deal out of accesibility, remember. It just backfired.

 

Approach Andor yes, come within 200 miles of Andor no.  He would go through Murandy, meet up with the road to Illian and travel South.  He would avoid Andor entirely.  I have no idea what you mean when you say that my accessability argument has backfired, because in all ways Illian is much more accessible than Andor.

 

Andor has the resources, the infrastructure, a like-minded ruler, and is his destination in any case. Sorry buddy, but it completely outweighs any other options--and by a long margine.

 

Andor has been embroiled in a foriegn campaign into Carhien, and a civil war for the past year and a half. Illian has been relatively stable.  Andor is ruled by his friend, a friend who is barely holding onto political control and who has made a habit of kicking out her friend's armies.  Illian is ruled by his friend, a friend who has actively recruited him assist him.  Camelyn has two hostile countries between him and it, Illian has part of Murandy between him and it.  All of the materials and infrastructure that Andor has access to in the west and in Camelyn trades down river to,...Illian.

 

 

 

[Majsju]

Like I said initially, argue it with Encyclopaedia WOT.  Wotmania says the same thing, as well.

 

Go tell them they're wrong.  Telling me does no good.

 

Neither the Encyclopedia nor Wotmania is canon.

And I am telling you that you are wrong, because you make a claim here that is false. I do not care very much about other mistakes on other sites except when they get posted here.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, you're not canon either, Maj.

 

As I've pointed out before, you are neither the author nor Aes Sedai, so quit acting like you are both.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Every Ajah considers politics to fall within its purview.  For confirmation, I refer you to New Spring.

 

It is the second day after Moiraine's uncles have been killed and the Aiel have begun to retreat - mission accomplished.  Moiraine and Siuan are recopying the lists of babies born.  Jarna Malari a Sitter for the Gray has just come into the room and pulled Moiraine out into the hallway for a private word.

"I fear that affairs of state never wait on grief, Moiraine.  Tell me, child, who in House Damodred do you think will ascend to the Sun Throne now that Laman and his brothers are dead?

 

Tripping over her own feet, Moiraine staggered and would have fallen had Jarna not steadied her with a hand.  A Sitter was asking her opinion on politics?  Of her native land to be sure, but Sitters knew more of most countries' politics than their own rulers did. ...

 

...

 

By the time they had laid the  completed copies on the rose-carved writing table that had been Gitara's, in the spacious anteroom to the Amyrlin's study, six more Sitters had come to take Moiraine aside.  One from each Ajah, all with very much the same questions.  Tsutama Rath, beautiful and hard-eyed enough to make Moiraine flinch, put it to her directly.

 

"Have you ever thought, " Tsutama said casually, toying with the red fringe of her shawl, "of being Queen of Cairhien yourself?"

 

No Ajah has a mandate for politics or political maneuvering.  They are each meddlesome in that area because none will allow any of the others to gain exclusive influence in the political arena.

 

Later, after they have passed their test for the shawl, and taken the Three Oaths:

Together, they walked towward the Blue sister.  Slowly, with as much grace as they could muster, and not holding hands; that would never have done, not now.  Like any Accepted, they had often discussed which Ajah they might enter, arguing merits and faults as theough they knew more than the surface, yet for the last year or more, those discussions had been merely to prove a choice already made.  The Blues sought to right wrongs, which was not always the same as seeking justice, like Greens and Grays. "Seekers after Causes," Verin had called Blues, and the capitals were there to be heard in her voice.  Moiraine could not imagine belonging elsewhere. ...

 

So, on the surface dispensers of justice, but really, underneath, righters of wrongs.  A very narrow distinction.

 

 

 

[eol]

But a distinction even they acknowledge. I think you just proved your own point wrong...

[Bob T Dwarf]

No.  I don't really have a viewpoint on the Ajahs.  I merely pointed out that two of the best respected online sources of accurate material about WOT differ from the information being dispensed here.  Information which is based on nothing except the poster's opinion.

 

And, both sites do.  Both clearly list Blue as being the Ajah of causes and justice.  Gray as being mediators and seekers after consensus.  Both definitions were laid down well before Jordan somewhat clarified things in New Spring.  Rather than being merely legally correct, which a naive reading of justice might imply, the later definition for the justice dispensed by Blues also requires the ruling to be morally correct.  Evidently, True Justice can never be morally wrong in Moiraine's viewpoint.

 

Whenever a treaty or accord is needed a Gray is always the first choice for the task.  Rand even has Grays negotiate his agreement with the Sea Folk, and later with those in the Tairen rebellion.  As we see from the passage I quoted above, Greens and Grays ( at least in Moiraine's view ) are more concerned with legality than with morality.  Laws alone can often be morally wrong.

 

Evidently, neither a Green nor a Gray could have used balefire to kill Bel'al because it was legally forbidden.  Only a Blue like Moiraine could see that however legally wrong it might be, it was the morally right thing to do.  So, she did it.  Balefire was True Justice for Bel'al.

 

Moiraine, a Blue, carefully explains to Rand why balefire must always be the weapon of last resort.  Cadsuane, a Green, slaps his face and FORBIDS him to use it again.  EVER.  Moiraine hews to what is moral.  Cadsuane hews to what is legal.

 

Relying on law alone is the refuge of the morally bankrupt.  Adhering to legalisms allows one to do anything that is not specifically proscribed.

 

Looking into and sometimes beyond the law allows one to do what is just.

[cloglord]

I'll interject here that this topic is being hijacked by this discussion of ajah roles.  I think if people think it is really a topic worth discussing it could move to another thread.

[eol]

Sorry Clog, you know how things get out of hand. Wont happen again. :-[

[cloglord]

Eol, I'm not mad, and I'm not the mod here.  I was just pointing out that it had been discussed off topic quite a bit, by myself as well.

[Bob T Dwarf]

To return to your premise, cloglord -

 

You still aren't dealing with two important factors:

1.  Waaaaaay back in LoC, Mat promised - p-r-o-m-i-s-e-d - Rand that he, personally, would see Elayne safely back in Caemlyn and on the Lion Throne.  He hasn't done that yet.

2.  He has now also obligated himself to help Thom and one other ( probably Noal ) rescue Moiraine.

 

Meeting both of those obligations necessitates that he turn north not south once he clears the pass.

[eol]

oh I know that, just playing the schoolboy! But I'd understand if it was wrecking your head. Especially as you started this thread specifically for good old school discussion.

[cloglord]

To return to your premise, cloglord -

 

You still aren't dealing with two important factors:

1.  Waaaaaay back in LoC, Mat promised - p-r-o-m-i-s-e-d - Rand that he, personally, would see Elayne safely back in Caemlyn and on the Lion Throne.  He hasn't done that yet.

2.  He has now also obligated himself to help Thom and one other ( probably Noal ) rescue Moiraine.

 

Meeting both of those obligations necessitates that he turn north not south once he clears the pass.

 

 

 

 

1.Waaaaay back in LoC he made a promise to keep Elayne safe, and then he B-R-O-K-E his promise when a wall fell on him.  He can't see her safely back to a place she is already at, and he can't help her attain a throne she already has, no matter what he promised.

2.Of course he is headed North, that is not the question. The question is where will the band go in the meantime?  That is unless you think Mat's going to march the entire band into the wilds of Andor just to turn around and march them back somewhere else for TG?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Mat has been out-of-touch with anyplace not controlled by the Seanchan for a long time.  Until he visits Caemlyn, and sees for himself, he can't know whether Elayne is there or only rumored to be there.  Whether she is alive and safe or only thought to be so.

 

Unless you know of some engraved invitation to the festivities known as Tarmon Gai'don that Mat has received, giving time, date, place and expected apparel, he has no idea where it will start, when it will start, or how and where Rand wants him to meet his portion of it.  Thus, Andor, being centrally located, makes as much sense as any other place for the Band to be.

 

He, unlike us, probably doesn't know about Stedding in the Shadow Coast.  Or, that their Waygates were unguarded at last report.

 

So far as we can tell, even if he knows that Rand has killed Sam and captured Illian, he can't be sure that the Illianer defenders know who the Band of the Red Hand is, would recognize them if they fell over them, or would welcome them on Illianer soil.

 

Thus, from Mat's viewpoint, based on the little he may know about the current situation in Randland, Illian would not appear to be any more welcoming to him than any number of other places.  At least he knows from personal experience that Andor and Cairhien are in Rand's hands and that the Band is known in both places.

 

And, so far, Mat hasn't broken any promise he made to Rand.  He's simply been delayed by Murphy and a few of Murphy's friends from seeing to the completion of the one concerning Elayne.

 

Now, if, after he exits the Pass, he turns south, rather than north, if he goes to Illian rather than Andor, then he will be breaking his promise to Rand about Elayne.

[Lille]

Until he visits Caemlyn, and sees for himself, he can't know whether Elayne is there or only rumored to be there.  Whether she is alive and safe or only thought to be so.

 

As soon as Mat gets to a larger village or town in Andor he will know that Elayne is in Caemlyn, and if not safe, then atleast not really threatened. When the 3(?) of the major houses who had been opposing Elaynes claim to the throne finally supported her, they did so in writing and Elayne says she will have the documents spread as fast as she can with traveling kinswomen. And its likely that she will do the same with the news that she is crowned queen of Andor.

 

If Mat was to go to Illian he would be showing the Banner of Light, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, so they would probably know he is an ally to Rand. Also his reputation as a soldier (for what he did in Cairhien) had reached Murandy, and to such an extent that people chose his smaller army instead of the Aes Sedais. Its pretty safe to assume that the same things can be heard in Illian as well. So i really doubt they would be more unfriendly towards him than Elayne and Andor would be.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You are correct about the proclamations.  I'd forgotten those.  Still, he has to get into Andor in order to run into more than rumors.

 

Even after, or maybe even more because of, the way KoD ended, Mat is dedicated to avoiding battles as much as possible.

 

Which would be his safest route?  Into known friendly territory ( for both himself and the Band ) like Andor, or, possibly, friendly territory like Illian?

 

Plus, until he can get into contact with Rand, he has no idea where Rand wants him to be or what Rand wants him to be doing.  And, he's obligated himself to go north to the Tower of Ghenji.  He's likely to do that before contacting Rand.  And, since he's headed north anyway, making sure about Elayne makes more sense than facing Rand with nothing more than, "Well, this wall fell on me and now I have no idea what's become of her."

 

Assuming he wants to get into contact with Rand as soon as possible, heading where he knows there may be people with the ability to Travel ( Caemlyn or Cairhien ) makes more sense than heading to Illian where that ability may not exist.

 

Anything is possible.  I just think north makes more sense for both himself and the Band.  And Aludra and her ideas.

[cloglord]

You are correct about the proclamations.  I'd forgotten those.  Still, he has to get into Andor in order to run into more than rumors.

 

Except that every boat that stops in Remen from the north would have heard the proclamation in Whitebridge.  At some point when enough people say the same thing it stops being a rumor.  When NPR and Fox news say the same thing, I tend to believe there's some truth to the matter.

 

Even after, or maybe even more because of, the way KoD ended, Mat is dedicated to avoiding battles as much as possible.

 

And yet if he continues up the Lugard road he gets to run into the concentrated force of all of Murandy, a force that assembled specifically to fight the Band of the Red Hand.  Even assuming that Mat decided to fight his way through that army, his road would then take him into the path of the same nobles that put a roadblock in front of the band 2 months prior.

 

Which would be his safest route?  Into known friendly territory ( for both himself and the Band ) like Andor, or, possibly, friendly territory like Illian?

 

I would agree if I thought that Andor was known to be friendly territory, and if unfriendly Murandy wasn't inbetween him and Camelyn.

Plus, until he can get into contact with Rand, he has no idea where Rand wants him to be or what Rand wants him to be doing.

 

When was the last time that Mat went running to Rand?  Why would he change now?

 

And, he's obligated himself to go north to the Tower of Ghenji.

 

North yes, not north and East several hundred miles out of his way to Camelyn.  Directly North, along the very river that he is currently approaching.

He's likely to do that before contacting Rand.  And, since he's headed north anyway, making sure about Elayne makes more sense than facing Rand with nothing more than, "Well, this wall fell on me and now I have no idea what's become of her."

 

Why would it make sense for him to delay his trip to the tower for several weeks just to check up on someone that every riverboat captain and andoran villager can tell him from published proclamations?  Why wouldn't "I was crippled fighting Seanchan." be a good enough reason to have not followed a person who can travel at the speed of traveling?  Was Mat supposed to ignore his grievous injuries and drag himself to Camelyn by his teeth to offer Elayne the services of a handful of redarms, a little boy, a senile old man, and a busted up taveren?

 

Assuming he wants to get into contact with Rand as soon as possible, heading where he knows there may be people with the ability to Travel ( Caemlyn or Cairhien ) makes more sense than heading to Illian where that ability may not exist.

 

Why on Earth would you assume that?  There has been one thing that Mat has been absolutely consistent on, all the way since the end of TEotW, it has been trying to get away from Rand.  If mat has the excuse of a promise to save Moraine to keep him from TG alittle longer, I have no doubt he'll take it without a second thought.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

I think i've made my point here--certainly theres no evidence we can use to establish for sure which direction they will head in, no prophecy... yet as a matter of likelyhoods i see Andor as the highest chance. Mat himself is headed there, half the band is there already, he'd already be to Lugard before he could change direction anyway, he has a personal connection with the Queen of Andor, and Andor is the only place cited within the last three books to have had new manufactaries built, and the only place we know of with the raw resources all together in one place.

 

As a matter of which is the most likely, Andor strikes me as highest on that list by a long shot--if you still think that it's Illian, thats well and good--i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I think that part of it all has also been well stated on both sides. So, with that in mind ill just provide you with a few of the things you asked me for, and be on my merry way.

 

Quote please?  Doman provided 50 men as a regular bodyguard for nyn and elayne in Tanchio and raised a small army for the riots that followed.  If he has that many crewmen in Tanchio, how many boats and crews did he have actually doing their jobs or docked in Illian?

 

tSR chapter 39. Domon states "I have a dozen good coasting ships the Panarch's taxmen do know about, and four deepwater they do no."

 

The deepwater ships could not enter the menetherendrelle anyway.  Aside from which, he lost them all when he was made property, which we know as of Winter's Heart chapter 21, He and Egeanin speak of the need to buy a ship to make their escape--surely if he had access to any he would have called upon them, but they keep speaking of the time it will take to buy a ship--until Mat puts the fear of the Light in Egeanin in chapter 29.

 

"You have a ship"...... "I will have a ship by the end of spring at the latest, as soon as my gold can be brought from Cantorin."

 

Domon has no ships.

 

First you assume that Mat needs to move the band in one trip.  Second you assume that Mat would load every last one of them onto a boat and take it south.  The example I gave earlier was of Mat using ships to carry supplies for the band to speed thier progress.

 

It would take months to cart every band member up and down the Menetheredrelle with only 12 ships--13 or so trips, 5 or so days in each direction is a 138 days. So the first assumption is pretty safe. The second is moot--for the army to move it would have to cross the menetherendrelle and move up to Lugard in order to take the Illian road, which means ships couldn't assist with supplies anyway.

 

If you choose to miss the subtext, just because it convienient for you to, go ahead, but I am absolutely sure that if the band had tried to march North during that month of rest for the Salidar contingent, the Andorans would have tried to stop them.  Since those Andorans have now left to go to Camelyn, they are in no position to stop anyone from crossing the border.

 

Those Andorans stayed until the Aes Sedai left, then left themselves, again proving that it was the Aes Sedai they were blocking.

 

 Actually the band can go somewhere else, Illian.  he's through the Damonas now, all he has to do is turn left and they'll get there eventually.

 

They can't--an army would need to move north past the Damonas--which continue along to the east almost till Lugard, or merely have to return back through them if turning south.

 

Approach Andor yes, come within 200 miles of Andor no.  He would go through Murandy, meet up with the road to Illian and travel South.  He would avoid Andor entirely.  I have no idea what you mean when you say that my accessability argument has backfired, because in all ways Illian is much more accessible than Andor.

 

He'd have to reach Lugard, or near enough as makes no difference--thats how your accessibility argument backfired--you cited the murandians as a major problem for heading to Andor, but to reach Illian they'd have to reach the heart of Murandy anyway--its six to one, half-a-dozen to the other.

 

 

 

Damn i wasn't going to get back into this. You know my arguments, i know yours. Lets leave it at that.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, yes, cloglord, Mat has been trying to get away from Rand since he learned Rand could channel.

 

He also had already accepted, before he left Rand in LoC that it just wasn't possible.  How ever taveren he was, Rand was moreso and would always draw him back no matter what he did.  He also made Rand a promise before they parted, and he needs to report on that.  Since he already fears that Rand is half ( or more ) mad, my bet is he'd rather face a battle against strong odds than to tell Rand that he doesn't know for sure what's happened to Elayne.

 

Having said all of that, I do believe that he will rescue Moiraine before reporting back to Rand.  Whether he journeys to Caemlyn before going to Ghenji or after, my bet is that he goes to Caemlyn before he goes anywhere near Illian.  And that he concentrates the Band rather than keeping his forces split.

[cloglord]

I'll not adress the issue of plausability of Andor over Illian again, as I agree that we have exhausted our arguments on that point, but I do have some issues with the things that you provided in your last post.

 

tSR chapter 39. Domon states "I have a dozen good coasting ships the Panarch's taxmen do know about, and four deepwater they do no."

 

This is a reference to the ships that he has plying the river trade through Tanchio, it makes no mention of ships that he has in Illian, Ebou Dar or any where else.  So the way I read your citation is that he had 16, not 12, ships at minimum, and quite possibly more.

 

Aside from which, he lost them all when he was made property, which we know as of Winter's Heart chapter 21, He and Egeanin speak of the need to buy a ship to make their escape--surely if he had access to any he would have called upon them, but they keep speaking of the time it will take to buy a ship--until Mat puts the fear of the Light in Egeanin in chapter 29.

 

They were not speaking of a need to escape, Eagin was speaking of what she would need to do in order for her release him from slavery.  Seanchan law required her to provide for his livelyhood, as so she felt she would need to buy him a ship, it had nothing to do with escape, as at that point Egeanin had no desire to "escape" her plight as a respected noble in a seanchan held city.  It is not until they fear being caught up in the Damane coverup conspiracy, that they begin to "assemble a crew," out of Thom and Mat...

 

Domon has no ships.

 

Domon as aa slave owned no ships in Seanchan territory, and yet the Seanchan have specifically gone out tof their way to avoid disruptions to trade.  Doman's ships were not likely destroyed, and in none Seanchan territories Domon would still be considered the owner of those ships.  Domon's shiplessness, such as it is, is a matter of inaccessability, not actual ownership.

 

Those Andorans stayed until the Aes Sedai left, then left themselves, again proving that it was the Aes Sedai they were blocking.

 

Proving nothing, as the Band had left that area to provoke Murandy's nobles long prior to the Andorans leaving.

 

They can't--an army would need to move north past the Damonas--which continue along to the east almost till Lugard, or merely have to return back through them if turning south.

 

I'll be the first to admit that the map is not %100 accurate or representative.  While true, that it appears that the mountains do continue well into Murandy, it does not preclude the possibility of other roads than the one pictured on the map.  As a matter of fact we know for sure that not all roads are marked.  We also cannot see the proposed smuggler's pass that Mat intended to use, but it does not mean that there was not a way through those mountains that was passable by several thousand men.  Simply because it looks like difficult terrain from the standpoint of the map does not make it impassable.  The only reason that we know that Mat could not pass the Damon's is because we were told as much.  We have not been told this same type of information about that availability of passes on the Murandian side of the Damonas. 

 

He'd have to reach Lugard, or near enough as makes no difference--thats how your accessibility argument backfired--you cited the murandians as a major problem for heading to Andor, but to reach Illian they'd have to reach the heart of Murandy anyway--its six to one, half-a-dozen to the other.

 

And that is a fundamental disagreement.  Talmanes and the Band's scouts managed to find the one and only smugglers pass that would bring him from Murandy to Altara.  Surely they could find another road or pass short of Lugard to bring them south, if they couldn't Vanin, who is now with the band certainly could. 

 

I don't expect that I'll convince you, but it simply is not so cut and dry as you would make out.

 

He also made Rand a promise before they parted, and he needs to report on that.

  Why would he have to report on a failed promise?  Would it make it anyless of a failure?

[Luckers]

This is a reference to the ships that he has plying the river trade through Tanchio, it makes no mention of ships that he has in Illian, Ebou Dar or any where else.  So the way I read your citation is that he had 16, not 12, ships at minimum, and quite possibly more.

 

I addressed why i limited it to 12... no deepwater craft could enter a river. And he doesn't have any, now.

 

They were not speaking of a need to escape, Eagin was speaking of what she would need to do in order for her release him from slavery.  Seanchan law required her to provide for his livelyhood, as so she felt she would need to buy him a ship, it had nothing to do with escape, as at that point Egeanin had no desire to "escape" her plight as a respected noble in a seanchan held city.  It is not until they fear being caught up in the Damane coverup conspiracy, that they begin to "assemble a crew," out of Thom and Mat...

 

Firstly, i included chapter 29 specifically because of that. Secondly, if Domon had ships than his livelyhood is assured--she wasn't paying him off with a ship, she had to be certain he could survive without her before she could write his manumission.

 

But as i said, all of that isn't nessasary, because directly after this Bethamin comes, and then they DO need a ship--its clearly Egeanin's intention to use a ship to escape, but states that she can't get one until her gold gets brought from Cantorin--why wait if she could simply have Domon bring one of these in--unless your suggesting that Domon could summon this fleet of his from a random villiage on the menetherendrelle more easily than he could summon one to Ebou Dar.

 

I said as much in my last post. Domon has no ships.

 

Proving nothing, as the Band had left that area to provoke Murandy's nobles long prior to the Andorans leaving.

 

Sure it does--they came to meet the Aes Sedai, stayed until they left, and left. You were the one that brought up subtext.

 

If they wanted to deal with Dragonsworn, don't you think they would have moved on Caemlyn, rather than going south?

 

I'll be the first to admit that the map is not %100 accurate or representative.  While true, that it appears that the mountains do continue well into Murandy, it does not preclude the possibility of other roads than the one pictured on the map.  As a matter of fact we know for sure that not all roads are marked.  We also cannot see the proposed smuggler's pass that Mat intended to use, but it does not mean that there was not a way through those mountains that was passable by several thousand men.  Simply because it looks like difficult terrain from the standpoint of the map does not make it impassable.  The only reason that we know that Mat could not pass the Damon's is because we were told as much.  We have not been told this same type of information about that availability of passes on the Murandian side of the Damonas. 

 

Well, if we're falling to arguments in absense of information, the information we have about the Damonas is that they were made in the breaking and don't have alot of passes--so if we're seeking to infer things off chance availliability....

 

This is absurd--im not suggesting its impossible to go to Illian, and we're arguing the semantics on such a detail that it really is silly--can Domon gather boats, can the band find a pass....

 

If RJ wants the band to go to Illian, it can get there--but your very original point was about which is the more likely--it is Andor. Even you've got to admit that. Oh, RJ could have Vanin know of a pass--frankly, the ship idea does seem more than impossible, but meh--and Rand could turn over the resources of three lands to the production of Mat's firearms, and Mat could then travel to Andor and the Tower of Ghenjei seperately, and the Band already in Andor could drive south and rejoin the others in Illian--but its complex, ellaborate and ungainly.

 

I know you have your theory about Illian--but purely from the prospective of the production of firearms Andor is the shiny target.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Why would he have to report on a failed promise?  Would it make it anyless of a failure?

 

It's only a report on a failed promise if he makes it before finding out for himself that she is alive and well and safely in Caemlyn. Or, not.  Finding those things out is one of the reasons that I think he'll go to Andor rather than Illian.

 

He didn't make Rand a conditional promise - an "I'll see her safely in Caemlyn as long as I don't have any problems along the way."  He'll do the best he can under current circumstances to honor that promise.

[cloglord]

If RJ wants the band to go to Illian, it can get there--but your very original point was about which is the more likely--it is Andor. Even you've got to admit that.

 

No I don't.  Completely apart from any other theory,  I seriously, honestly, believe it would be easier for the Band to go to Illian, than it would be to march them through all of Murandy and into the heart of a difficult political situation in Camelyn. You are right though that we have run out of pertinent information to argue.

 

It's only a report on a failed promise if he makes it before finding out for himself that she is alive and well and safely in Caemlyn. Or, not.  Finding those things out is one of the reasons that I think he'll go to Andor rather than Illian.

 

He did NOT accompany Elayne to Camelyn.  Now that Elayne is in Camelyn, he can not accompany her there after the fact.  That chance has passed, nothing he does now is going to change it.  He did however, assure her safety.  It is in the chapter entitled, "Promises to Keep." at the end of CoS,  Where he gets a promise from Lan, Avhienda, and Birgetee to protect them.  He even exchanges an ancient Barashandan oath with Birgette to that effect.  Since he had promised to ensure their safety, he would not leave Nynaeve and Elayne until he had obtained assurances that others would discharge his duty for him.  Promise kept, as the name of the chapter implies.

[Bob T Dwarf]

He took steps.  So far, he knows little to nothing about outcomes.

 

Do you automatically assume that your kid's room is clean just because you asked him to clean it, and he said he would?  What if you knew - positively - that those monsters under the bed and in the closet were real and really trying to kill the kid?

 

Maybe it's just me, but I'd check to see, first if the kid was still alive, and then if the room was clean.

 

 

 

[cloglord]

First of all, I trust my children.  Secondly I do check up on them.  Thirdly, neither Elayne, nor Mat is a small child.  Mat did his best, dragging an army half way across the continent will not make Elayne any safer.

 

Mat doesn't need Rand to check in on him, and Elayne does not need Elayne to check on her.  What about the promise Mat made to make sure Nynaeve was safe?  After he gets to Camelyn is he supposed to go on a wild goos chase to find her too?  He'll just put of the tower of Ghenji trip indefinately?

[Bob T Dwarf]

IIRC, he had a Taveren Technicolor Telepathy moment and saw Nynaeve and Rand during the Cleansing.  So he knows she has made it safely to Rand since he last saw her.

 

No, I think his immediate priority once clear of the Pass is the Tower of Ghenji.  Taking the opportunity along the way of linking the two halves of the Band back together again. 

 

Once into Andor, it seems most likely that he'd send Aludra ahead to Caemlyn to get started on her 'dragons,' while he went on to rescue Moiraine.  According to my map, Whitebridge is not that far north of where the Pass lets out, and that's probably where the rescue party will split off from the portion of the Band he currently has with him.  The Tower is upriver from there, isn't it?