The importance of Illian in AMoL

[Luckers]

Mat has a personal target in far western Andor that would require him to move at the reduced speed of an army while trying to equip said army on a sustained march to no effect.  Moving the band south by means of the river, would be the quickest way of getting his army into completely friendly territory with the size and infrastructure in place to handle the logictics of feeding and supplying his army.  So the question really is, why on earth would he take the half of his army that is with him on a goose chase through the wilds of Andor, when he has the perfectly good oppurtunity to send them somewhere that can house and feed them?

 

And the boats to move that many men come from... where, precisely? Even if he commendeers every river vessel he could--at best--move perhaps a thousand troups down the Menetherendrelle.

 

And you'd best phrase that question to him besides, since that was his stated destination through all of KoD.

 

The river has importance in that it provides the easiest method of transporting large numbers of soldiers to a useful and convienient location.  Any other route requires the marching of the band through territory that would likely not appreciate have an army of dragonsworn marching through it.

 

A river is not a magic slippery slide. He'd need near to a thousand ships to transport those sort of numbers--exactly the reason he didn't do the same in LoC.

 

You can see that the Malvide narrows follows the Lugard road into Murandy.  There does not appear to be a good route North to White Bridge except for the river.  The lugard road will take them to the Manetherendrelle where they will have the choice of going upriver to whitebridge, down river to Illian, through Murandy, (which is already all geared up to fight the Band, or overland through largely uninhabited norther altara to meet up with the whitebridge road.  Any trip for the band to Andor is going to either face supply troubles, or troubles in murandy, or a river trip to Whitebridge.  If they take the river to whitebridge and then march to camelyn it will take that much longer, and will put pressure on Elayne to adress the issue of yet another foriegn army marching on her capital.

 

Well, again they won't be going by river anywhere. Murandy can be dealt with, much as the Seanchan were--Mat is who he is, after all. And doubtless it will cause some issues for Elayne. Not great ones, of course. Elayne survived Aiel and Saldaeans and Borderlanders... the Andorans know the limits of opposing Rand.

 

Uh yes they have, at the same time that the Andorans stood their ground in Murandy against the Aes Sedai, they stood their ground against the band.  Neither army was allowed entry.  Secondly, Elayne has a history of trying to get these foriegn powers OUT of Andor not inviting them IN to Andor.  If Mat and Elayne's relationship is so good, you would think that Mat would consider the possibility that if Rand's forces aren't welcome, his might not be either.

 

Ahem, when precisely did they oppose the band? Quotes, please. And who said Elayne would invite them into Andor? And no, i don't see Mat thinking about that.

 

There is no indication that the band is headed to Andor, it is headed towards Murandy, at the moment  The personal friend that you mention, has a proven track record of trying to kick out the armies of her friends.  Andor is not the only nation with infrastructure capable of producing firearms, even ebou dar has a bellfounder.  The mines of Andor are directly assesible by the same river that would deliver them to Whitebridge, and Illian has direct acess to all of the ingredients nessecary for the propellant nessecary to make those firearms useful, something that Andor does not have.

 

So you are suggesting that Mat sends the band to Illian in order that they then reach a trade agreement with Andor in order to gain the raw materials to create firearms. Curious. Even after all that, what facilities do you suggest they will be using to make the firearms? We have no indications that Illian has any form of advanced manufactorial infrastructures. Indeed, Elayne lists the nations that do in Winter's Heart. Ghealdin, Tear, Cairhein--and now Andor.

 

And Mat's destination was indeed Andor--he thinks it more than once.

 

For starters I've not made one connection to Carhien that's Maj's baby.  Secondly, Illian is the only politically stable, friendly nation within his reach.  Andor is too hot and unstable to welcome the band, Murandy is itching for a fight, Ghealdean is in ruins, and Altara is in the hands of the Seanchan.  There's nowhere left to go.

 

Andor is newly stable, and besides, i doubt they will be sending an invitation. Mat will enter Andor, and they will deal with it--much as they did with Saldaeans, borderlanders and Aiel. And again, Illian is not within reach--the only pass known through to illian was destroyed, and he doesn't have the ships to reach there by river.

 

It's Andor, end of game.

[cloglord]

And the boats to move that many men come from... where, precisely? Even if he commendeers every river vessel he could--at best--move perhaps a thousand troups down the Menetherendrelle.

 

Firstly he has less than 10,000 men with him at present, my memory isn't that great but for some reason the number 8K comes to mind.  Secondly he is traveling in the company of two successful captains, one of which has a giant presence in Illian.  remember Bayle Domon, they guy who just happened to have a small army of sailors in tanchio of all places?  Not to mention the fact that Setalle Anan's husband has his entire fishing fleet docked in Illian.  All it takes is ONE of Doman's ships passing them along the Manatherndrelle and Ships to move the band start appearing along the magic slippery slide.

 

And you'd best phrase that question to him besides, since that was his stated destination through all of KoD.

Quote please?  He was traveling along the Lugard road, but I don't once remember him thinking he would try to get to andor.  In fact the smugglers pass that I think he intended to use before he discovered its collapse would have taken him into Ghealdean...

 

A river is not a magic slippery slide. He'd need near to a thousand ships to transport those sort of numbers--exactly the reason he didn't do the same in LoC

 

But he did use the river to get south from Carhein.  Reread it.  He had several ships to carry supplies and speed the march, since he knew that the supply trains could not keep up.

 

Well, again they won't be going by river anywhere. Murandy can be dealt with, much as the Seanchan were--Mat is who he is, after all. And doubtless it will cause some issues for Elayne. Not great ones, of course. Elayne survived Aiel and Saldaeans and Borderlanders... the Andorans know the limits of opposing Rand.

 

But why would he?  Even if he didn't take the river, it would still be easier to skirt Lugard along Murandy's southern border and slip south into Illian.  To what purpose would mat willingly send the band through one hostile country and possibly into a second, when he could just send them around the bend and into Illian.  And just exactly to you propose that Mat will deal with the Murandians in the same way that he did the Seanchan, if he's on his way to the Tower of Ghenji.  Surely you aren't suggesting that Mat's plotline in AMoL has him and the band fighting a wa through two countries to get three guys in the vicinity of the tower.

 

Ahem, when precisely did they oppose the band? Quotes, please. And who said Elayne would invite them into Andor? And no, i don't see Mat thinking about that.

TPoD: Chapter 17, I'm at work so I don't have my books with me for a direct quote, but the Andorans provide the same roadblock for the band that they do for the Salidar Army.

 

And Mat's destination was indeed Andor--he thinks it more than once.

  Then you should have no trouble providing more than one quote then right?

 

 

So you are suggesting that Mat sends the band to Illian in order that they then reach a trade agreement with Andor in order to gain the raw materials to create firearms. Curious. Even after all that, what facilities do you suggest they will be using to make the firearms? We have no indications that Illian has any form of advanced manufactorial infrastructures. Indeed, Elayne lists the nations that do in Winter's Heart. Ghealdin, Tear, Cairhein--and now Andor.

 

I think that Mat has a much better chance of arranging manufacturing in Andor if he doesn't march an army of dragonsworn through it.  And who ever said that the firearms and the gunpower had to be manufactured in the same place?  Ghealdean, Andor, and Tear are easily accesible from Illian.  Each of those places has the know how to produce manufactured goods.  Only Aldura knows how to make gunpowder.  Unless you think it is more important that Aldura oversee the manufacturing of cannons then it is for her to train and supervise a workforce capable of mass producing gunpowder, or is she going to make it all out of the back of her wagon?

 

Andor is newly stable, and besides, i doubt they will be sending an invitation. Mat will enter Andor, and they will deal with it--much as they did with Saldaeans, borderlanders and Aiel. And again, Illian is not within reach--the only pass known through to illian was destroyed, and he doesn't have the ships to reach there by river.

 

It's Andor, end of game.

 

I'm not sure that pass went to Illian, I was under the impression it was located north and west of the Lugard road, but as I do not have my books with me, I'll wait until I ge home to argue that point.  That is unless you want to look it up and prove yourself wrong? ;)

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

A couple of minor points.

 

Mat has been out of touch with the rest of Randland for a considerable time.  Thom and Juilin do a good job of ferreting out info, but they've been understandably focused on immediate concerns.  Eaganin might have some wider knowledge.

 

Point of all that being that I'm not sure that Mat knows anything about Rand being the new King of Illian. 

 

Rand did kinda set Mat the task of seeing to Elayne's safety.  A wall fell on him and he's had a few other concerns as well, but he's still got the matter of Elayne hanging over his head, so it seems most likely to me that he'll be trying to check-up on her on his way to the ToG and Moiraine.

 

It's also a little late in the game for him to be separating himself by 2/3 of the continent from his army by sending them to Illian while he heads off in the totally opposite direction.  WE know he could Travel back and forth, (with an Asha'man) but Mat doesn't know anything about Traveling, yet.

 

Then there's Perrin ( relatively ) nearby, Galad and the Whitecloaks, and a lot of other odds and sods that can affect the actual route he follows.

 

Just a little more fuel for the fire...

[cloglord]

Uhm, Mat does know about the possibility of traveling, He has seen both Mat and Egwene weave gateways, and he has traveled by both means.  He just does not have the means to travel.

 

Point of all that being that I'm not sure that Mat knows anything about Rand being the new King of Illian.

 

He spend several months in Ebou Dar during which Rand was the King of Illian, I'm sure word reached Ebou Dar about that bit of news.

 

Rand did kinda set Mat the task of seeing to Elayne's safety.  A wall fell on him and he's had a few other concerns as well, but he's still got the matter of Elayne hanging over his head, so it seems most likely to me that he'll be trying to check-up on her on his way to the ToG and Moiraine.

 

A task he abandoned when he sent her to the farm to stay and have that wall fall on him in the search for Olver.  He has since made promises to Tuon and Thom that supercede any past concerns for Elayne.

 

It's also a little late in the game for him to be separating himself by 2/3 of the continent from his army by sending them to Illian while he heads off in the totally opposite direction.  WE know he could Travel back and forth, (with an Asha'man) but Mat doesn't know anything about Traveling, yet.

 

So there is going to be some meaningful TG battle in the wilds of far western Andor, or are you saying that Mat will drag his whole army to the tower and have them sit out TG?

[Bob T Dwarf]

The lions sing, and the hills take flight.

The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, Jackdaw fool,

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

We pretty much agree on the significance of the first two lines.

 

The next two are pretty interesting as well.  A blind woman is the symbol for Justice.  The Blue Ajah is the judicial Ajah.  Moiraine is Blue.

 

The deaf man is probably Thom.  He will pay a terrible price to get Moiraine back.

 

The Jackdaw fool, could be Mat, or it could be Noal aka Jain Farstrider who was badly maimed and psychologically mauled by Ishy at some point.

 

My guess is that the last line means that the fighting that kicks off TG will have started before they manage to break Moiraine free.  Mat and the Band of the Red Hand won't get there until things are already looking very bleak for the good guys.

 

Just a guess...

[cloglord]

The lions sing, and the hills take flight.

The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Blind woman, deaf man, Jackdaw fool,

Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

We pretty much agree on the significance of the first two lines.

 

We do?  I think that the lions singing and the hills taking flight is a reference to the invasion of carhien by andoran "white Lions" in TSR.  I do agree that a blind woman could very well represent justice, I have no idea where you get the idea that Thom will go deaf, and the Gray ajah, not the Blue, is the judicial ajah.  You are correct however, that Moraine is Blue, provided she is not stilled, which as I understand it from Siuan and Lelain's prior situation precludes them from being in any ajah. 

 

My guess is that the last line means that the fighting that kicks off TG will have started before they manage to break Moiraine free.  Mat and the Band of the Red Hand won't get there until things are already looking very bleak for the good guys.

 

Just a guess...

 

I have adressed this before, but we already now that AMoL will cover at least 40 days of time before TG hits, as the epilouge has Tuon safely returned to Ebou Dar.  According to the Cooper timeline it took Furyk Karede 42 days to get from Ebou Dar to Tuon, it is only reasonable to assume it took that long to get her smuggled back.  Since in the Epilouge Suroth fails to think about how TG is going on all around the world, I think it is pretty likely that it will take at least a month in real time for TG to really get underway.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No, the Grays are the negotiators.  They make treaties.

 

The Blues are the ones who dispense justice.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I have adressed this before, but we already now that AMoL will cover at least 40 days of time before TG hits, as the epilouge has Tuon safely returned to Ebou Dar.  According to the Cooper timeline it took Furyk Karede 42 days to get from Ebou Dar to Tuon, it is only reasonable to assume it took that long to get her smuggled back.  Since in the Epilouge Suroth fails to think about how TG is going on all around the world, I think it is pretty likely that it will take at least a month in real time for TG to really get underway.

 

Maybe.

 

You assume that TG kicks off somewhere that the Seanchan have eyes and ears.  And, that those reports would have had time to get to Ebou Dar before Tuon got back.

You also assume that Mat would have been able to make it to The Tower of Ghenji and free Moiraine within that 40 days.  He's got a lot of unsettled ( in every sense of the word ) territory to cross in order to do that.

 

Big assumptions.  With no indication that any of them might be correct.

[Majsju]

Both the Blue and the Grey Ajah are involved in negotiations, but from different angles. The Blue are more a political Ajah, while the Grey focuses on law.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Argue it with encyclopaedia WOT, guys -

 

Blue Ajah - An Ajah of the Aes Sedai. The Blue sisters involve themselves with causes and justice. The Blue Ajah is the second smallest one, but it has the most extensive network of eyes-and-ears. The head of the Blue Ajah is called the First Selector.

 

Gray Ajah - An Ajah of the Aes Sedai. The Gray are mediators, seeking harmony and consensus. Serancha Colvine is the Head Clerk of the Gray Ajah.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Would somebody please supply a citation showing where Mat has ever Traveled, or ever even see it done.

[Minnea]

It happened off-stage, I just read about it LoC.

It's when Rand moves Mat and the Band from going till Tear and drops them off some dagys from Salidar to get Elayne. Pretty clear that Rand uses Traveling, IMO.

[eol]

Argue it with encyclopaedia WOT, guys -

 

Blue Ajah - An Ajah of the Aes Sedai. The Blue sisters involve themselves with causes and justice.

 

 

I think you are misunderstanding the context of justice here, its more on a worldwide scale than a court or such. justice as opposed to judicial.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Justice as being the Ajah that interprets the law and rules on legal disputes.  Blind and impartial in their Judicial capacity.

[Majsju]

Causes and justice are quite different than law.

 

And aside from Travelling, Mat also Skimmed from Salidar to Ebou Dar.

[Bob T Dwarf]

He also Skimmed to Caemlyn.  Skimming he knows, still not a gimme on the Traveling.

 

Nobody ( well maybe Rand using the CK ) could make a Skimming platform big enough to transport the entire Band.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Causes and justice are quite different than law.

 

You can't dispense justice without interpreting the law.

 

A has a dispute with B.  Who's right?  Depends on the local law.  Say A is tight with the local Lord, and the Lord rules in A's favor.  Did B get justice? 

 

If B thinks not, the Blue Ajah is his Court of Appeal.

 

But, this is getting us off track on the importance of Illian.

[Majsju]

He also Skimmed to Caemlyn.  Skimming he knows, still not a gimme on the Traveling.

 

Except from, as Minnea pointed out, when Rand opens a gateway from tear to Salidar.

And incidently, I was wrong. Mat and the others does not Skim to Ebou Dar, they Travel. I got them mixed up with Lan.

 

So there you have two accounts of Mat Traveling.

 

You can't dispense justice without interpreting the law.

 

Riiiight... ::)

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, how would you dispense justice?  Flip a coin?

 

You do get your gimme on the Traveling, though.  Mat did see Rand Gate into his room in Maerone.

 

[Majsju]

Political justice and legal justice are two different things. Guess which one causes fits with...

[cloglord]

Wrong.  Beonin's POV in Kod'S Ch. 2 is clear that she has both argued points of law, and dispensed rulings as part of her duties as a Gray.  

 

Blue = politics  Gray = Justice

 

And as I said, both Rand and Egwene have used gateways to allow Mat to travel.  

[Bob T Dwarf]

Grays also heal if they have the Talent.  Does that make healing the province of Grays, too?

 

Blues also fight when confronted.    Does that make them Green instead?  Reds are now Bonding Asha'man.  Whites read extensively in order to inform their theories.  In fact all of the Ajahs study a great number of topics, does that make Scholarship their primary task?  No, that's the Browns.

 

Prior to becoming Amyrlin, Elaida, a Red, was Morgase' advisor.  A political posting.

 

What any AS does on a given day doesn't determine the primary task for her Ajah.

[cloglord]

...as part of her duties as a gray.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Like I said initially, argue it with Encyclopaedia WOT.  Wotmania says the same thing, as well.

 

Go tell them they're wrong.  Telling me does no good.

 

Blue = causes and justice.

Gray = mediation and negotiation.

[Luckers]

Firstly he has less than 10,000 men with him at present, my memory isn't that great but for some reason the number 8K comes to mind.  Secondly he is traveling in the company of two successful captains, one of which has a giant presence in Illian.  remember Bayle Domon, they guy who just happened to have a small army of sailors in tanchio of all places?  Not to mention the fact that Setalle Anan's husband has his entire fishing fleet docked in Illian.  All it takes is ONE of Doman's ships passing them along the Manatherndrelle and Ships to move the band start appearing along the magic slippery slide.

 

What? Domon had twelve ships, and i doubt Jasper Anan had more. Twenty-four ships cannot move ten-thousand men. Furthermore, Domon's 'fleet' were lost to him, and the chances of one of Jasper Anan's ocean fleet to be running along the Menetherendrelle is next to nothing.

 

I'm sorry, but the idea that Mat could move the Band by river is absurd. At best sixty men could fit on a rivership--and thats pushing it--so he would need at leas 166 ships. Perhaps not my thousand ships, but still impossible.

 

I think that Mat has a much better chance of arranging manufacturing in Andor if he doesn't march an army of dragonsworn through it.  And who ever said that the firearms and the gunpower had to be manufactured in the same place?  Ghealdean, Andor, and Tear are easily accesible from Illian.  Each of those places has the know how to produce manufactured goods.  Only Aldura knows how to make gunpowder.  Unless you think it is more important that Aldura oversee the manufacturing of cannons then it is for her to train and supervise a workforce capable of mass producing gunpowder, or is she going to make it all out of the back of her wagon?

 

I see Elayne being prissy with him for marching dragonsworn through her land, but not much else. Aside from which thats already done with--half the band is already in Andor, as stated by Talmanes. As for the rest of it, my point stands. For him to do it through Illian would need him to approach Andor anyway--its pointless, when he could just do it through Andor. It was you who originally made a big deal out of accesibility, remember. It just backfired.

 

Andor has the resources, the infrastructure, a like-minded ruler, and is his destination in any case. Sorry buddy, but it completely outweighs any other options--and by a long margine.

 

TPoD: Chapter 17, I'm at work so I don't have my books with me for a direct quote, but the Andorans provide the same roadblock for the band that they do for the Salidar Army.

 

Nope. Sorry mate, they stated directly that the roadblock is for the Aes Sedai out of fear for a war between either Aes Sedai, or Aes Sedai and Asha'men on Andoran soil. They never make any comments directed about the dragonsworn, never oppose him, and never indicate that they would. Besides, the other half of the band entered Andor--if they were there to stop them, then they would have stopped them.

 

Then you should have no trouble providing more than one quote then right?

 

Indeed i cannot. Though i count the fact that the other half of the Band is already there, added to the fact that he is heading for Ghenjei, and can't go anwywhere else to count.

 

Quote please?  He was traveling along the Lugard road, but I don't once remember him thinking he would try to get to andor.  In fact the smugglers pass that I think he intended to use before he discovered its collapse would have taken him into Ghealdean...

 

Murandy, actually. I thought it was Illian because of Mat's comment in chapter 11 of KoD about heading east if Vanin knew a path--it was never stated that he didn't, and the next chapter it brings up Vanin knowing a path through the Damona Mountains, and i assumed, but in fact the path led to Murandy, not Illian. As for him traveling to Andor--the other half of the band is already in Andor as stated by Talmanes in chapter 25 of KoD, plus he has to reach the Tower of Ghenjei, and besides he can't head anywhere else--Murandy, then Andor.

 

But he did use the river to get south from Carhein.  Reread it.  He had several ships to carry supplies and speed the march, since he knew that the supply trains could not keep up.

 

Thats why i directed you to it--he uses it to bring supplies, but the band marches. Sorry.

 

But why would he?  Even if he didn't take the river, it would still be easier to skirt Lugard along Murandy's southern border and slip south into Illian.  To what purpose would mat willingly send the band through one hostile country and possibly into a second, when he could just send them around the bend and into Illian.  And just exactly to you propose that Mat will deal with the Murandians in the same way that he did the Seanchan, if he's on his way to the Tower of Ghenji.  Surely you aren't suggesting that Mat's plotline in AMoL has him and the band fighting a wa through two countries to get three guys in the vicinity of the tower.

 

I don't, in fact i rather doubt the Band will have any issue with the Murandians at all--you were the one who suggested that. Mat will dance around them and move on. As for skirting Murandy along the border, i'd uggest you look at the map again--the only way through those mountains for an army is the roud, and that comes out on Lugard--whether going to Andor or Illian he faces the same problems. Since he knows no one in Illian, has no reason to go there, and has a mission in Andor, and a Queen who he has a close personal relationship, added to the fact that Andor has the infrastructure capable of building the 'dragons' whilst we have no suggestion that Illian has such....

 

I'm not sure that pass went to Illian, I was under the impression it was located north and west of the Lugard road, but as I do not have my books with me, I'll wait until I ge home to argue that point.  That is unless you want to look it up and prove yourself wrong?

 

Yes, it didn't... it went into Murandy. I was confused by the progression.