Civil War Mafia: The Abolitionists Are Coming! Game Over!

[Alys Kinch]

o.k. guys, i screwed up the vote count yesterday, however!! since there were only 8 needed and there were a total of nine, the count still stands, kivam is still dead.

[Alys Kinch]

wes, if you want a mafia game library... i could suggest that you start it. :P

[the dude]

 

[glow=red,2,300]JELLY IS AN ABOLITIONIST.[/glow]

[the dude]

[glow=BLACK,2,300]RELEASING CONTROL ART RESTRICTION SYSTEM LEVELS 3, 2 AND 1.  THE CROMWELL APPROVAL IS NOW IN EFFECT.[/glow]

[the dude]

aaah, jelly...  you're a nice girl and i like ya, but that's not gonna help ya 'round here.  ;)

 

two things.

 

first, you were told by yourself that you're innocent.  my doubt's been dispelled now, so i don't have to make any bones about your claims, which are FALSE.  and by false, i mean made up.  8)

 

second, since this whole time you've been touting your insane finder role which gives every alignment as its opposite, the fact that your viewing says you're innocent basically means you're guilty.  :)

[Luthine]

Does that mean you didn't view her yourself? If not, did you view someone else?

[the dude]

oh, i just thought i'd point out the inconsistency is all.  ;)

 

and besides, you're not the finder and mafia.  you're just mafia.  8)

 

luthine, i did view jelly last night, it went through, and she's mafia.

[loki redfern]

ahh its been a while. i probably should vote straight away but im still not sure if i trust the dude yet. but it would be kinda pointless for him to make a fake view yet, and keeping jelly alive if she were innocent would probably benifit mafia. so um the only way i can see  jelly being innocent is if someone has a role which reverses finder results. and thats (i hope) way to farfeched. ok i think i will vote now actually [glow=red,300,2]jelly[/glow]

 

 

[loki redfern]

[glow=red,2,300]jelly

[Daetirion]

aaaargh

 

part of me says, go with thedude

 

The other half says, i dont think Jelly has it in her to do this. No offence meant, Jelly your a skilled player and we all saw wonders last time you were mafia, yet something still doesn't fit in my mind. That and with every post made by thedude, warning bells are going off left, right and centre for me.

 

And yet it based upon Kivam, solid evidence forces me to believe he is probably right

[glow=red,2,300]

Jelly[/glow]

 

Subject to change if someone cleverer than me can put something solid in to save her

[the dude]

daet, i gotta say, jelly has played bloody brilliantly.

[the dude]

[glow=BLACK,2,300]YOU HAVE BEEN A WORTHY ADVERSARY INDEED, LITTLE JELLY.[/glow]

 

[Daetirion]

Aye i recognise that. The "Vote for me" strategy worked wonders

 

And yet something doesn't fit here. Surely Mafia colleagues would have warned Jelly about posting Finder in the event of a counter claim. As i said, something doesn't fit here, and the ruthless and continuous prosecution on your part makes me think your pushing this a little too much

[loki redfern]

same here tyre, same here.

 

and if your right dude she has, but if its you thats mafia methinks you have made a blunder

[the dude]

my experience is showing me that the larger mistake i made was waiting, but here we are.  you're either gotta trust me or not, i guess.  :-\

[the dude]

well, there's no chance that i'll be doing that, but the others will have to decide that for themselves.

 

psst, by the way, i don't really recommend it.  :P

[loki redfern]

id recomend thinking about it and not blindly following though :-*

[the dude]

by all means.  :)

[SBoydW]

I say vote jelly.. If she's innocent lynch the dude. unless they both mafia.. and setting us up...

 

[glow=red,2,300]Jelly[/glow]

[loki redfern]

..if there both mafia its just going to them both lynched.. setting us up for what?

[the dude]

i think we all know the answer to that:

 

a square dance.

[DPR]

 

How do we go from Dude being a prime suspect to him claiming Jelly is mafia, and everybody believing him?

 

He's done nothing to earn any additional trust, and the only claim he's been correct on so far was Kivam. That could easily be explained by them working together. And as for motivation, how about this: take out our only finder and call it square. Then the Kivam/Dude dust-up has at least produced results, we have no finder, and 2 or 3 low laying mafia will kick into gear now and probably win the game.

 

So if it's cool with everyone, I'd like to hold off on the votes until we get this sorted out.

 

Dude, why not just come out and claim Jelly as mafia in your first post? This made me feel like you feeling for a reaction from people before you claimed.

Then you try to tag her as an Insane Finder. She replies that she never siad she was insane. Many have speculated that she could be paranoid or random. Interestigly, Kivam kept implying that she was insane. And now you have pickd it up.

 

Why would jelly claim herself innocent if she had said she was insane? Are you saying that she's pulled off this brilliant deception only to drop the ball on such an dumb mistake?

 

I really wanted to see which of the finders was going to post first, and I was very interested in seeing who they investigated. I even posted that I hoped Dude did not go for the obvious play, which would be to take Jelly out.

 

If Jelly had posted that she viewed Dude, and found him innocent, I would be extremely suspicious. But she viewed herself, and claimed herelf innocent. This either makes her a mastermind player, or she's reporting results as they are given to her.

 

Dude claiming that Jelly is mafia is just as suspicious, very aggresssive, totally predictable, and at a time when he has no credentials to back him up except for his claim on Kivam which sparked an entire conversation abotu the Kivam Gambit.

 

Could be me, but it seems a bit too easy. I'll have more in a minute.....

[the dude]

How do we go from Dude being a prime suspect to him claiming Jelly is mafia, and everybody believing him?

 

are we reading the same game, DPR?  seems to me like it's not quite as cut and dry as all that, thus far.  now, i don't mean that to sound adverserial, just to be clear.  i'll go on through and address your questions.

 

He's done nothing to earn any additional trust, and the only claim he's been correct on so far was Kivam.

 

thing is, that's the only claim that's been put to the test.  i can't really help that, and like i said, i would have had this information a day ago, and another viewing besides, 'cept kivam blocked my view on one night.  i see your point that i could have viewed someone less obvious, but from my point of view, i wanted to be able to function from here on in without worrying about the x factor of jelly.  i know what i needed to know now, and we can proceed from here.

 

That could easily be explained by them working together. And as for motivation, how about this: take out our only finder and call it square. Then the Kivam/Dude dust-up has at least produced results, we have no finder, and 2 or 3 low laying mafia will kick into gear now and probably win the game.

 

a valid concern, and i don't know what i can say to reassure you at this point.  given that anything i say is still suspect, there's not a whole lot of point, is there?  i've given all the information i have, save my confirmed innocent.  if you have any questions, by all means, fire away, i'm happy to answer them.

 

So if it's cool with everyone, I'd like to hold off on the votes until we get this sorted out.

 

you do what you want.  my vote stays where it is.

 

oh, in case it wasn't explicit enough, i vote for [glow=green,2,300]jelly[/glow].

 

Dude, why not just come out and claim Jelly as mafia in your first post? This made me feel like you feeling for a reaction from people before you claimed.

 

well, i was away for 2 days with a very bad cold.  first thing i did upon logging on was to come in and apologize for the absence.  then i went and re-read.  just bein' polite is all.  that, and i posted before reading, so i didn't know if i was, say, killed in my absence.  that would have been a huge gaffe, if i'd revealed my viewing after being killed.

 

Then you try to tag her as an Insane Finder. She replies that she never siad she was insane. Many have speculated that she could be paranoid or random. Interestigly, Kivam kept implying that she was insane. And now you have pickd it up.

 

DPR, the insane finder theory for jelly has been flashed around so much at this point (while kivam was the biggest defender of the theory, it was vemy who first mentioned it) that i don't think it holds a whole lot of water to try and pin that on me.  every time i ask jelly a question about her "viewings," i'm trying to give her a chance to add inconsistencies to her story for the rest of you to find.  she's playing very tricky, and the more tricky one plays, the more places one can make a mistake.  now if her results don't seem inconsistent to you, then we're definitely not reading them the same way.

 

Why would jelly claim herself innocent if she had said she was insane? Are you saying that she's pulled off this brilliant deception only to drop the ball on such an dumb mistake?

 

i can't speak for jelly.  what i know is this:

 

she "views" vem, "sees" he's mafia.  we lynch him, he's an innocent mason.

 

next she "views" you, DPR.  her "viewing" says that you're mafia.  you and the mafia are the only ones who know at this point what your alignment is, so i can't testify to that for the moment.  i say the mafia know your alignment because, either you're on their team, or you're not, so that pretty much tells them.

 

then she "views" herself, and sees herself as innocent.

 

tell me how that adds up, i'd love to hear it.

 

I really wanted to see which of the finders was going to post first, and I was very interested in seeing who they investigated. I even posted that I hoped Dude did not go for the obvious play, which would be to take Jelly out.

 

ok, i know you had a plan you wanted to try and all, but i'm gonna say again; i really didn't want to go forward without finally solving this jelly question for myself, once and for all.  no matter what else, i needed to have that information for my own peace of mind.  i make no apologies for that, especially given the result i received.

 

If Jelly had posted that she viewed Dude, and found him innocent, I would be extremely suspicious. But she viewed herself, and claimed herelf innocent. This either makes her a mastermind player, or she's reporting results as they are given to her.

 

i'm sorry, but viewing oneself is completely useless to my way of thinking.  unless this game got REAL weird and people are mafia and don't know it, then it's silly to waste a night action on something that you know already, and which isn't verifiable by anyone else.  that is, it wouldn't be verifiable if jelly was the finder and i was not. 

 

Dude claiming that Jelly is mafia is just as suspicious, very aggresssive, totally predictable, and at a time when he has no credentials to back him up except for his claim on Kivam which sparked an entire conversation abotu the Kivam Gambit.

 

suspicious?  i can see that, because of how the game has gone so far.  i get that and respect it as an opinion.  agressive?  sure, why not.  i'm a revealed finder and i have a guilty result, on a player who's gone a long way to stalling the innocent team out.  yes, i want her lynched.  quite badly in fact.  i'll make no secret of that.  predictable?  i say logical.  i think it makes perfect sense, given all the uncertainty, for me to try and verify her claim.

 

and again, that last sentence...  what you're saying is i have no proof that i'm finder except that i've successfully outed a turncoat who had switched sides.  now, i know which angle you're coming from, a mafia would know the same thing.  but, well, that's what i've got.  i can't make up information, or rather, i choose not to.  if people get behind the jelly lynch, well, i'll have another notch on my belt, and hopefully we can end this debate.

 

Could be me, but it seems a bit too easy. I'll have more in a minute.....

 

i know what you mean, but it is what it is.  i've presented my information, made the plays i thought were appropriate, and that's pretty much it.

 

haha, damn that took a long time to type up.  :P

[Leelou]

[glow=red,2,300]Jelly[/glow]...if she is indeed mafia then it will shed some light on the ideas banging around in my head, which I will share if she is mafia, if not then I need to rethink things and go over my notes again.

[DPR]

Here is where I will ask everyone to examine everything I am about to say very closely, and totally ask me any questions that you want.

 

I am NOT saying that Dude or Jelly is absolutely innocent, or absolutely mafia. I just think we need to take our time, look at the evidence, and in light of the games that Alycral are playing, be very careful who we lynch today.

 

It should probably not be either of these players, but let’s see what comes of the information that I have.

 

I do have a role. I have repeatedly said that I suspected that other roles existed, mostly because I have one but also because Alycral advertised that they would exist.

 

I am a Prisoner. A prisoner is a new role and it means that I am being held against my will by the Abolitionists. So I’m a miller (an innocent who shows up as mafia when investigated) but I am also something else (which Alys has enjoyed taunting me about  :P).  As soon as Kivam was lynched, the second half of my role was activated, so now I am also a bomb. Before you ask:

 

1. I don’t know who the mafia are

2. I don’t know what my trigger is

3. It has been implied to me by the mods that mafia know who I am and are watching me.

4.    I don't know if there are other prisoners.

 

And what does this have to do with the great finder debate? It means that Jelly was right when she found me to be mafia. Now, this could be a random result which would mean nothing. Or she could be mafia and just trying to frame me. Or it could have been a legit finding. It's impossible to say which, but at least we have something to cross check her claim against.

 

This is exactly why I invited both finders to investigate me. Which is now pointless, but it could have pointed out a few things if they had agreed. And I came very close to revealing my role at that point, but nobody liked the idea and I know better than to stick my neck out too far. Well, hopefully. heh

 

I also know that all this sounds too good to be true, and it would be wonderful to think that you would trust me and take this information seriously. But that aint gonna happen. So I have in fact, already revealed, just to make sure that no one was thinking “Man, DPR is like a genie! Loki asks for a reverse-roled player, and walla! Here he is!

 

Page 28, It’s the first post:

 

Meh  :P The elaborate finger-pointing is only going to hurt us. We have to start clearing this up or we're just going to make it more confusing for ourselves. What if we look at it this way:

 

*Both Kivam and Dude are valuable/dangerous players. We have to hold out the possibility that both could be evil and working a plan, or both innocent and confused by new roles, etc.

*Both of their arguments have definintely passed the "easy to understand" point, and even players who are keeping up with it as soon as it is posted are confused. Players who have not checked in since the boards went down will be overwhelmed. But, we still need everybody caught up and agreeing on what we think is happening.

*This is exactly the type of situation that a mafia team hopes for: Innocents that have become confused and are statistically likely to tear each other down.

*We need to get all of the players up to speed and thinking about this. The innocents strength lies in superior numbers and our ability to filter through the smoke and mirrors. We do not need to add more confusion to the mix! That will only lead to mistakes, and when we lose, we can kick ourselves. Then we'll look back at this point and realize "that's when I became a prisoner."

 

Let's get everyone in here, and reason through this before it's dawn and one less of us is around to do so.

 

As far as gut feelings go, I still think that Jelly probably just has a weird finder role.

I'm not sure what to think about Kivam. He's certainly devious enough to come up with the arguments that he's making, but he's also having to defend a weird claim agianst him. The old "I know it says I'm guilty, but I'm really not" defense is tough - even for him. But Dude did ot label him as mafia, so I have to think that I would try to argue it as well.I even understood his casing against me. I did not agree with it, but I saw where it was coming from. I need to know more about this one before I make a call. Dude is also another player who could easily be working a plan, but he could also be as genuine as he claims to be. And he could also have a weird finder role. I need more info on this one as well.

More than anything else though, I cannot overlook the fact that early skirmishes and accusations are exactly what a low-laying mafia team always waits for. And here we are, in the middle of it.  And I really don't want to see a bunch of innocents in a massive dust-up shred each other to pieces while the evil team kicks back and watches it from the bleachers. Right now, it's the players we have not heard much from that worry me the most. that and the existence of roles that we don't understand yet. What does everybody else think?

 

 

I embedded this at this point because I figured that I might be investigated, given how much I had antagonized, and in hopes that I could work out something to test the finders. At this point I was also still holding out that Kivam could be innocent becuase I knew that these roles really were in the game. Last, because I would need proof if I was headed for the lynch, which has been known to happen.  :P

 

So, at this point, I think we probably need to put our two finders on ice, and find ways to test them.

 

Remember, so far, neither has given conclusive evidence of anything, but we don’t want to burn through innocents or waste a finder that could help us. My instincts are yelling at me to look at the low-layers, and the people that were so fast to hop on to the Jelly lynch.  Hopefully, we can look at the activity around all of the main attraction events, and pick out a guilt face or two.

 

On an RL note, Dude, I hope you are feeling better and no matter how this turns out, It is always a pleasure to see the Cromwell Approval! I do miss it so.

 

Now, pick me apart. I've got even odds on Alys's bet that I'll get lynched right away. heh