Civil War Mafia: The Abolitionists Are Coming! Game Over!

the dude · May 23, 2008

Ooooooh boy.....

Kivam.... are you saying you're a healer, or some kind of role blocker? The distinction is very, very important.

Jelly, the reason that your "mafia" result for DPR should concern you is that the last time you said someone was mafia and we killed him, he was innocent. That tends to make your results slightly less than reliable, to put it mildly.

Alys Kinch · May 23, 2008

i forgot about memorial day... i will make the day last through tuesday night or wednesday morning to accomodate.

the dude · May 23, 2008

Well, that's arguable, depending on whether one buys your story or not. ;)

For a second, let's play make-believe though, and imagine that you're a poor, confused, insane finder. The fact that your role isn't your fault is tertiary to the fact that your results aren't useful. It may not be your fault, but that doesn't make the situation any better.

the dude · May 23, 2008

Awww c'mon. We're playin' a game; no need to take anything personally, m'dear. 8)

I'm not taking any of this personally, for example. ;)

DPR · May 23, 2008

*bites bottom lip*

I'm waiting on answers of a different sort.

Alys Kinch · May 23, 2008

no, dpr, barms cannot be killed. :P

Verbal32 · May 23, 2008

I'm starting to get the impression that the dude is steering Jelly this way and that to increase her level of confusion. I mean, look at some of her last posts - she's clearly not sure what's going on here. That makes me lean even more towards her having some wonky finder role.

For the dude, he seems totally focused on twisting her words around and getting her to contradict herself. I'm not saying that the dude is definitely mafia due to this, but I think it warrants a little more attention. He could either be plainly trying to figure out this weird finder situation, or he could be playing an INCREDIBLY clever game as a mafia. Those are really the only 2 choices I can see.

Either way, we're back on day now, right? So who's got ideas for votes? I'm tempted to vote for the dude just to settle once and for all this finder situation. Granted, if I'm wrong that will royally suck, but at some point we have to take a chance on this. We can't let the game keep continuing on in this manner, with no solid information. We need hard facts, and a lynching is the only way to do that.

[glow=red,2,300]the dude[/glow] - Biggest reason is that he seems to be trying a bit too hard to put the entire focus away from himself. This is just my opinion, of course. Either way, lynching him will give us solid information.

Kivam · May 23, 2008

Well, that's arguable, depending on whether one buys your story or not. ;)

For a second, let's play make-believe though, and imagine that you're a poor, confused, insane finder. The fact that your role isn't your fault is tertiary to the fact that your results aren't useful. It may not be your fault, but that doesn't make the situation any better.

Dude, I'm not ready to jump in with Verbal and lynch you just yet, but could you explain to me why you are lying here?

If Jelly is an insane finder, then her results are useful - if she gets an "innocent" verdict, then the person she viewed is mafia.

Jelly, if I were you, I'd be viewing either me or the Dude tonight. Since I know I'm innocent, I'm suggesting the Dude. Feel free to do what you want

the dude · May 23, 2008

guys...

first, is insane finder not a random result, or am i wrong on this.

second, kivam, i'll repeat the question i asked earlier: are you saying that you've a healing role, or a blocking role? i'd really like to see an answer to that. since right now you're having a field day lawyering up my posts, let's see a direct answer from you. kiv, i love ya, you're one of the best guys around DM, period, but right now i'm having a hard time not seeing you as the enemy.

if you'd like to know the reason i'm asking, it's this: if you're a healer, i don't believe that that prevents a night kill. if a healer mistakenly (in ignorance) protects a mafia, the mafia kill still goes through. now i'm speaking from the convenient point of view of knowing i'm the genuine finder and that jelly's either a duplicate gimp finder, or she's playing a mafia scam.

however, if you're a role blocker, then that's what happened to my viewing last night. i'd love to know if this is the case or not. at that point, i would suggest that the healer successfully protected someone last night.

verbal, yes, i'm testing jelly. i want to see what she comes up with for answers. am i the only one who thinks it's weird she didn't view me last night? luthine, i think you're mostly on the same page as me, but that seems to be as far as it's going. the rest of you are conveniently ignoring the lack of sense in this.

i'd like to point out who's being logical here, and who isn't. jelly investigates a random player last night, with no worthwhile explanation whatsoever. there were a minimum of 2 very viable targets (myself, kivam) for viewing, and she skipped them. her one viewing so far said an innocent was guilty, and we killed vem for it. yes, yes, i could have stopped it, but i've explained that repeatedly, and won't waste the space doing so again.

Kivam · May 23, 2008

Dude, its been pointed out repeatedly on this thread that an insane finder gets opposite results.

I am not the healer. I role-blocked you, since you seemed likely to be mafia. Role blocking a mafia player leads to the mafia being unable to lynch. Role blocking the Dude led to no lynch.

I'm aware that the no-lynch could also be the result of the healer protecting someone, but that's unlikely, since a smart mafia team would not have targeted anyone likely to be healed (that's you or Jelly, at this point). The odds that the mafia randomly targeted the healer are vanishingly small. Occam's razor is telling me you are mafia - everything about your posts, from your "reveal" when you say you didn't have a single "this player is mafia" finder result, to your hanging back when Jelly claimed finder, to your equivocal "results", to your refusal to identify the "bonus" innocent view you claim you got - screams false-finder claim.

The only reason I haven't voted for you already is that there's a risk that you actually are the finder, but unless you come up with something better that "oh, I didn't know insane finders get opposite results even though its been mentioned multiple times in posts I quoted", you aren't really leaving me much choice, are you?

DPR · May 23, 2008

Bah, I see plenty wrong with all sides of these arguments, and that's what's bugging me the most.

Yes Kivam can twist words, and he can omit certain facts to prove a point and in general is a headstrong player. He attracts attention no matter what, becuase he's him.

Ditto for Dude.

Which is why I have a hard time believing that either of them is mafia and is tangled up in a fight so early in the game. If I was mafia, I would be cutting through innocents like a knife through butter. I would be doig away with as many of them as I could to try and lessen their number advantage before the real heat came on.

Kivam has played up front all game. It could be a mafia tactic, but it's dicey at best. And, if he is, it is most likely to cover team mates in the background. But I don't see that proof yet.

I don't agree with Verbal about Dude. I wish I did. I wish I had that feeling that pushed me over the edge into lynch territory. Instead, Dude seems to me like he's restraining himself. Choosing his words carefully. And I don't see where he is leading Jelly - he's asking obvious questions that any player would. And it's weird that others are not. If anything, others have labeled Jelly, not him. And the fact that nobody is questioning either finder or proposing a rather obvious solution has got to be because its the weekend and no one is around.

Which leaves us at our stalemate. Which brings us back to the low laying players. And to Verbal. Who ought to know better than to vote for a declared finder before we have any answers. That's pinging my radar more than anything else right now.

Verbal, care to explain why you would jump into a fight like this and defy common mafia convention

Kivam · May 23, 2008

Dude, I answered your question, now you answer mine.

Was DPR the "bonus innocent" view you got?

the dude · May 23, 2008

sigh. kiv, i don't think i'm gonna convince you, and i frankly think you're miffed for me outing you, and hence your antagonism. but that's just me.

i'm more and more convinced that jelly is mafia and that they're playing a very very tricky game. either they didn't target someone last night, or the healer protected someone strategically. i don't know.

okay, i'm leaving in about 10 minutes, and might check in on sunday. otherwise i'll be back on monday. i ask that you not lynch me before i get back. i'm going to leave this as is for now, because i realize i'm getting worked up, and that it's actually mostly due to circumstances outside the game. before i start saying some regrettable stuff, i'm gonna just stop and come back later.

in summary though, kivam is a turncoat, whether he's turned or not. i believe him on the roleblocking, and i'm a little bit annoyed, as it it would have told me one of the single most important pieces of information i'd like to have in this game: jelly's true alignment. i'm more and more suspicious of her as time goes by.

and no, kivam, it was someone else.

Edit: Watch the language please.

Blig Blog · May 23, 2008

A game with the Dude, Kivam, and Sirayn is like...work! :(

*runs away in horror*

Kivam · May 23, 2008

I think we all need to back away. And though I think the Dude is mafia - I think the no-kill almost proves it - "almost" isn't enough to risk throwing a possible finder overboard.

I think the Dude needs to view Jelly tonight, and Jelly needs to view the Dude, and we'll see what we see tomorrow. I won't roleblock the Dude (and we'll see if the Mafia kills again)

Anyway, I'm out for the sabbath. If nobody's been lynched by the time I get back, I'll decide who to vote for.

DPR · May 23, 2008

How about this: We need to hear from Nae, Leelou, Loki, Soy, bcx, May, luthine, Dae, Blig, and more from Verbal. And like the rules say, not just a check-in post. According to the rules, you have to post, so jump in with a few constructive thoughts.

Leelou · May 23, 2008

I think that a no lynch should be a possibility for today since we don't have concrete evidence from the night to go on. Anybody else have any thoughts?

Blig Blog · May 24, 2008

We should discuss our thoughts some more. Although i think that we won't get any concrete evidence, i think we should at least discuss a little more to try and obtain info. on who might be mafia.

We probably won't get much but we should at least talk about all the possibilities.

I think that a no lynch should be a possibility for today since we don't have concrete evidence from the night to go on. Anybody else have any thoughts?

I think we should, as i said, try and get some more hard evidence. A no lynch is good for this night if we don't get any hard evidence. ;D

I know for a fact that on this up and coming night that it would be a bad idea to lynch someone on anyone's vague thoughts of mafia on said person.

I will admit that i have not focused that much on this game. I think that now i will get in more of a contribution because i do not have the pressure of having to do any work on this long, and very much loved weekend.

How about this: We need to hear from Nae, Leelou, Loki, Soy, bcx, May, luthine, Dae, Blig, and more from Verbal. And like the rules say, not just a check-in post. According to the rules, you have to post, so jump in with a few constructive thoughts.

Get ready for the Bligzkrieg! ;)

Since i haven't been focusing much on this game during the week cuz of all the work, i really didn't read much of the last few pages. :-[

I am going to go back so that i can do a re-read and will return with my thoughts in a bit. Or, since the last few pages are like...very long...i think that i should say that i will return with my thoughts in about a month. :D

Naeann · May 24, 2008

Ok well I'm here.... Im thinking....

Jelly has certainly proven herself in other games as a worthy competitor and I wouldn't put it past her for it to try fake claim... If she had the backings from one of the big wigs of the mafia behind her to give her the confidence and help her in the attempts to pull it off. It really pings and bugs me though that you didn't choose to view either yourself or Dude. The obvious choice. Especially viewing yourself.. it would have erased any doubts about your role.

Dude I'm really not sure on. I, like a few others have said, don't understand the whole waiting thing.. yes, Jellys findering killed an innocent... but so did your silence. If you had spoken up before Vemy died the game would have gone a whole different direction. I don't know why, if Kivam is telling the truth, he picked you to block either... pending YOU are telling the truth.. (*too many role reveals too early people!!) It would have been helpful for SOMEONE to view Jelly. But, having just come from the BT game where I was definetly 100 percent innocent and had an uncontested finder say I was viewed as guilty, I don't like that Dude just assumed Kivam was already turned on this "turncoat" role.

Dude, Kivam, and DPR are talking big this game.. per expected on these big games.. .especially from the last two. Pay attention to everything they say.. but do so with a grain of salt as all three of them are very capable of manipulating a game to their advantage.

Naeann · May 24, 2008

Ok i should check how a sentence turns out when i change words around before sending lol. I wouldn't put it past her to try a fake claim. Not.. that mess I left up there.

Blig Blog · May 24, 2008

Jelly has certainly proven herself in other games as a worthy competitor and I wouldn't put it past her for it to try fake claim... If she had the backings from one of the big wigs of the mafia behind her to give her the confidence and help her in the attempts to pull it off. It really pings and bugs me though that you didn't choose to view either yourself or Dude. The obvious choice. Especially viewing yourself.. it would have erased any doubts about your role.

I wouldn't put it past her either but i just don't feel that she is doing that in this game. I am just not fealing it. :-\

Here is what i think is going on:

Jelly is the real finder and the Dude just put the Finder claim in there to protect Jelly. If the mafia were to take out the finder now then i feal that we would not have to good of a chance. No one is going to mess with either of them though because either one could be the real Finder, and no one, on the innocents team ;), will want lynch the finder.

But they both could be mafia and they want to stay alive long enough so that when we find out that neither of them are the Finder then it will be too late. Because no one, in their right mind, is going to try and lynch them if either one could be the true Finder.

But, nothing as of yet is concrete in the whole finder situation. :-\

Dude, Kivam, and DPR are talking big this game.. per expected on these big games.. .especially from the last two. Pay attention to everything they say.. but do so with a grain of salt as all three of them are very capable of manipulating a game to their advantage.

I agree, i advise everyone to be wary of these. Especially the undetermined Finder, the Dude.

More thoughts later...

Side Note: What happened to Dsage? ???

SBoydW · May 24, 2008

I would love to hear Sirayns take on all this. Like an objective third party...

I think that there's a third option here that was mentioned a while back, both the dude and Kivam are playing us. They're both mafia and we have a finder but she's looney, unless there's another unclaimed finder out there.

Kivam said that he role blocked the dude and that led to no night kill meaning he's mafia. The dude claimed that he didn't get any views last night because he was blocked... whose to say that isn't a completely contrived story on both there parts...?

I'll hold my vote until I've heard some more insanity

If that makes no sense.. it's because I've been up since 6 am and I'm sleepy. So good night.

Blig Blog · May 24, 2008

Just so you all know, I'm going to be gone for the majority of today I think (it's 9 am here..) because I'm going to see my aunty. Hehe I bet I'll come back to 10 pages... :D

I doubt it. It will probably be like 15 new pages! :D

*hopes not*

Kivam · May 25, 2008

Ok well I'm here.... Im thinking....

Jelly has certainly proven herself in other games as a worthy competitor and I wouldn't put it past her for it to try fake claim... If she had the backings from one of the big wigs of the mafia behind her to give her the confidence and help her in the attempts to pull it off. It really pings and bugs me though that you didn't choose to view either yourself or Dude. The obvious choice. Especially viewing yourself.. it would have erased any doubts about your role.

Dude I'm really not sure on. I, like a few others have said, don't understand the whole waiting thing.. yes, Jellys findering killed an innocent... but so did your silence. If you had spoken up before Vemy died the game would have gone a whole different direction. I don't know why, if Kivam is telling the truth, he picked you to block either... pending YOU are telling the truth.. (*too many role reveals too early people!!) It would have been helpful for SOMEONE to view Jelly. But, having just come from the BT game where I was definetly 100 percent innocent and had an uncontested finder say I was viewed as guilty, I don't like that Dude just assumed Kivam was already turned on this "turncoat" role.

Dude, Kivam, and DPR are talking big this game.. per expected on these big games.. .especially from the last two. Pay attention to everything they say.. but do so with a grain of salt as all three of them are very capable of manipulating a game to their advantage.

I picked the Dude to block because I asked the mods and they confirmed to me that blocking a mafia member would prevent a nightkill. Lo and behold, I roleblock the Dude and there's no nightkill.

The other options are: 1) the healer healed the mafia target; or 2) the mafia chose to forego a kill to sow confusion, and all my roleblock did was prevent our finder from getting a night-view. But like I said before, I kind of doubt it, especially given the inconsistencies I've seen in the Dude's play.

I don't think having Jelly view herself is helpful at all. No matter what, she will come back and say she viewed herself and came up guilty. She could still be: a) an innocent insane finder who gets opposite results (so when she identifies someone as "innocent" we should lynch them, because they are guilty; b) an innocent paranoid finder who gets only guilty results no matter what; or c) a mafia player fake-claiming insane/paranoid finder.

In other words, having Jelly view herself doesn't tell us one way or the other whether she is innocent and useful (insane finder), innocent and useless (paranoid finder) or mafia (fake-claim). The only thing that will tell us that is if she views someone and comes back with an "innocent" result - if that happens, she's either an insane finder or mafia fake-claiming insane finder, and we do what we always do when there are multiple claimants: lynch the one she identifies as innocent. If it turns out the player was actually innocent, then she was mafia and we lynch her.

(that, btw, is why there's no chance Jelly will say she viewed herself and came up innocent - if she's actually innocent, then she's either paranoid or insane, and therefore must come up guilty. If she's mafia, saying she came up innocent will get her lynched).

Kivam · May 25, 2008

We do have too many players laying low right now. I need to hear from:

Loki

Sirayn

Daetirion

Verbal

BCX

Mayleigh

and to a lesser extent, from

Luthine and Leelou

Civil War Mafia: The Abolitionists Are Coming! Game Over!

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