Shielding, Stilling and Power Wells.......

[balefire]

I was re-reading book 9 a few days back and after reading the entire far madding hunt for the rogue ashaman by Rand and Nynaeve and the subsequent ass-saving by Cadsuane, i had a few questions regarding power wells.

 

Firstly, can a shielded person draw Saidin/Saidar from a full power well or will he she be unable to do so?? In far madding, the true source just vanished, where as while shielded, you can feel the true source, you can strain to reach it but you are blocked, will that cause any problem while trying to draw power through a well while shielded??

 

Secondly, can a stilled person draw the one power through a full power well?? In stilling, a person's ability to reach for the true source is cut off, but he/she can still sense it. Personally, i think stilling only cuts off the ability to open to the source, the body's ability to channel Saidin/Saidar remains there and if they tried to draw from a full power well, do you think they would be able to channel that small amount one power drawn from a different source than the true source?? at least until the well runs out, since they don't have access to the limitless source of the one power in the true source and cant refill the well.

 

[Asmo]

Well, yeah. I think that's why they were made in the first place, to be used as a surprise tactic if you are shielded. I don't think the ones who made them had in mind the exact Far Madding scenario of the guardian ter'angreal. As for stilling, I don't know. Stilling is described as culling the ability to channel out of you, so I assume it refers generically to being able to channel anything whatsoever. So I don't think you can use Wells or the like while Stilled.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Secondly, can a stilled person draw the one power through a full power well?? In stilling, a person's ability to reach for the true source is cut off, but he/she can still sense it. Personally, i think stilling only cuts off the ability to open to the source, the body's ability to channel Saidin/Saidar remains there and if they tried to draw from a full power well, do you think they would be able to channel that small amount one power drawn from a different source than the true source?? at least until the well runs out, since they don't have access to the limitless source of the one power in the true source and cant refill the well.

 

That's a good question.  It could provide for an interesing plot twist somewhere along the line, but I suspect that severing prevents a person channeling the power from any source whatsoever.

[Luckers]

Mmm. I agree. Much like Siuan and Leane couldn't touch the power through Moghedian.

 

As for being shielded, much like Asmo I've long thought that was probably the reason wells were created in the first place. I mean, yes it could have something to do with stedding--except that they were made in a time when the stedding were lost. It's all guesswork until we see it, but i'd say yes, a shielded person could draw from a well.

[Juggler]

Makes you wonder why wells weren't used to create the ways INSIDE a stedding.

[Jehaine]

Makes you wonder why wells weren't used to create the ways INSIDE a stedding.

 

Probably because they couldn't. A ter'angreal was used to 'grow' the Ways, so maybe the Waygates needed a small bit of stored OP to open and close themselves? Especially since the ones that were growing them were the Ogier, and they aren't exactly known for their channeling abilities.

 

Come to think of it... would ter'angreal work in a Stedding? The ones that don't require their holder to be able to channel, i mean. The ones that needed their holder to channel would be 'AS-powered' anyway, and not applicable in that scenario.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Makes you wonder why wells weren't used to create the ways INSIDE a stedding.

 

My guess would be that The Ways created inside the stedding would not be able to be sustained.  Yes, an AS probably could take a well into a stedding and create ways, but once he left the ways would probably collapse of just vanish.  The Ways are made of Saiden, and just as the taint on Saiden effected the ways, the nullifying effect of the stedding on Saiden would probably apply to The Ways as well.

 

This does bring up an interesting question though.  Could a channeler standing outside a stedding cause lightneing to strike someone inside the stedding?  It would kind of be similar to the way channelers can use this trick to get around Mat's medalian, the weaves would actually be outside the stedding.

[Luckers]

Makes you wonder why wells weren't used to create the ways INSIDE a stedding.

 

Firstly the Wells were made, along with all of the ter'angreal in Nynaeve's and Cadsuane's batches, during the Breaking, by women. The men who created the Ways not only wouldn't have had one, but likely wouldn't have even believed them to be possible.

 

This does bring up an interesting question though.  Could a channeler standing outside a stedding cause lightneing to strike someone inside the stedding?  It would kind of be similar to the way channelers can use this trick to get around Mat's medalian, the weaves would actually be outside the stedding.

 

No. RJ answered this directly, weaves simply disapear as they hit the edge of the stedding.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Makes you wonder why wells weren't used to create the ways INSIDE a stedding.

 

Firstly the Wells were made, along with all of the ter'angreal in Nynaeve's and Cadsuane's batches, during the Breaking, by women. The men who created the Ways not only wouldn't have had one, but likely wouldn't have even believed them to be possible.

 

Are you sure they wouldn't have believed it possible?  Wasn't The Eye of the World essentially a giant well?  And if men could create a reserve of Saiden on such a large scale wouldn't it be likely that they could and would have done so on a smaller scale as well?

 

This does bring up an interesting question though.  Could a channeler standing outside a stedding cause lightneing to strike someone inside the stedding?  It would kind of be similar to the way channelers can use this trick to get around Mat's medalian, the weaves would actually be outside the stedding.

 

No. RJ answered this directly, weaves simply disapear as they hit the edge of the stedding.

 

Yes the weaves do disapear when they hit the edge of the stedding just as they do when they come near Mat's medalian, but what if a channeler conjured up the storm just outside the border of the stedding and then had the lightening shoot in a downward diaganal direction into the stedding?  The weaves would be outside the stedding it would just be the lightening itself that would cross the border.  It would be similar to the way Rhavin's weaves were high in the sky away from Mat's medalian and so the the lightening produced by those weaves was able to strike Mat despite the medalian's effect. 

[Asmo]

Also, it doesn't seem like Wells can contain the amount of Power needed to create something like the Ways. Even Nynaeve's seemed pretty limited, and Cadsuane said it was remarkably stronger than her own. Besides, why would anyone want to put the exit specifically inside a stedding? And would the Ogier agree with it?

[balefireruinssteaks]

You have to think of it differently.  If there is a storm, and lightning occurs in the storm naturally, then the lightning is created from the product of the storm itself.  Natural lightning probably happens in a stedding if a storm is passing through.

 

A bolt of lightning created by saidin/saidar IS lightning but it is made from weaves of the Power, which unravel when they come in contact with a stedding, or a ter'angreal like Mat's or Cadsuane's.  So this type of lightning, while it IS lightning, is unable to be thrown at someone from outside of the stedding.  But I think someone standing inside a stedding during a storm could very much be hit by a bolt of lightning during that storm.  It is the product of the storm and not the One Power.

 

 

 

The Ways, as we understand by the hint we get from Aviendha's "reading" were probably grown from a ter'angreal which incorporated Treesinging or some type of singing.  The ter'angreal that Aviendha "reads" can grow something but it's activated by singing, which confuses her.  It would confuse her unless she was familiar with how Ogier incorporate singing into a lot of the things that they do.  I think the Ways were "grown" using such ter'angreal.

 

I also agree that the amount of the Power used in the growing of the Ways would probably be far greater than Nyneave's Well could contain.  There may be even more powerful Wells out there but if there are they have not been found yet.

[Luckers]

Are you sure they wouldn't have believed it possible?  Wasn't The Eye of the World essentially a giant well?  And if men could create a reserve of Saiden on such a large scale wouldn't it be likely that they could and would have done so on a smaller scale as well?

 

That wasn't created until nearly forty years into the breaking either, and we know that it involed new discoveries since they managed to cleanse it--and those that did died.

 

So yes, the generic channeler would not have believed it possible, and of the few who had learnt it was, they died.

 

Yes the weaves do disapear when they hit the edge of the stedding just as they do when they come near Mat's medalian, but what if a channeler conjured up the storm just outside the border of the stedding and then had the lightening shoot in a downward diaganal direction into the stedding?  The weaves would be outside the stedding it would just be the lightening itself that would cross the border.  It would be similar to the way Rhavin's weaves were high in the sky away from Mat's medalian and so the the lightening produced by those weaves was able to strike Mat despite the medalian's effect. 

 

That would indeed work. Similarily one could stand outside and use the power to throw large objects at the stedding like catapult.

 

A bolt of lightning created by saidin/saidar IS lightning but it is made from weaves of the Power, which unravel when they come in contact with a stedding, or a ter'angreal like Mat's or Cadsuane's.  So this type of lightning, while it IS lightning, is unable to be thrown at someone from outside of the stedding.  But I think someone standing inside a stedding during a storm could very much be hit by a bolt of lightning during that storm.  It is the product of the storm and not the One Power.

 

Actually they do not. The creation of lightning with the One Power seems to be the use of the Power to excite electrons in the atmosphere so that they have enough energy to groung themselves, and at the same time creating a powerful positive charge in the ground in order to focus them.

 

It's like throwing rocks, but on a much, much smaller scale. Or perhaps a gun would be a better analogy, giving the energy to the thing that shoots out, and funneling where it goes. And yes, it works against Mat's ter'angreal--we learn this as a fact as of KoD.

 

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

Really?

 

I've always thought of it as something created by the formation of weaves, not so much that the weaves cause the necessary conditions which create the thing.

 

You could build a fire on a piece of wood and shove it in someone's face.  If you had a ter'angreal which unraveled webs, it wouldn't matter; the fire did not originate through the One Power so it would still burn you.  However, a fireball created with the One Power would unravel and vanish, as we saw when Cyndane tried to burn Alivia.

 

So I think that lightning created by the One Power can be unraveled, while lightning created naturally would not - the source of the creation is different.  That's why someone channeling outside a stedding could not fire lightning INTO the stedding...but I suspect if there was a lightning storm that passed through a stedding, one might possibly get hit by lightning if it happened to actually strike them.

[Jehaine]

Well... that depends. A lightning storm created by the OP would simply dissipate as soon as it entered the Stedding as the clouds themselves are Woven together. A normal lightning storm (as in, 100% natural) would have no problem going in, but it would still be impossible to make it hit where you want it to.

 

As for Mat's medallion, Luckers' theory is correct. Though i still believe his medallion can protect against saidin, the lightning bolt itself was 'grounded' in Mat's general area (since Asmo got hit too), not on Mat himself. Thus, the lightning shot out, followed the path of electrons to where it was supposed to be grounded. The part of the atmosphere (sorry for the wording) where Mat was standing would no longer be charged, at which point the lighting bolt continued on normally, hitting the things closest to it. To use Luckers' gun analogy, the funnel the bullet travels through would dissipate a few inches away from him, which would not be enough to make it miss all of a sudden.

 

So yeah... Though not exactly in the way it normally would have worked, Rahvin still managed to take out Mat that way.

[price_check]

i think that severing som1 from the soucre simply cuts off the connection to the direct true source

however power well can still fill som1 who is stilled because it is not the true source

well thats wat i tink anyway

[Luckers]

Really?

 

I've always thought of it as something created by the formation of weaves, not so much that the weaves cause the necessary conditions which create the thing.

 

You could build a fire on a piece of wood and shove it in someone's face.  If you had a ter'angreal which unraveled webs, it wouldn't matter; the fire did not originate through the One Power so it would still burn you.  However, a fireball created with the One Power would unravel and vanish, as we saw when Cyndane tried to burn Alivia.

 

Well, yes and no. You've got to understand the nature of lightning. It occurs when something gives energy to electrons in a way that allows them to jump out of their medium to the nearest positive force--in storms, this is caused by the kinetic energy of the clouds, but other things can cause it too, for instance light, at a high enough frequency (ultraviolet or higher) can similarily energise electrons to jump. It's called the photoelectric effect, and its the basis of solar power and all the rest.

 

In effect that is what is happening here except that the thing giving energy to the electrons is the One Power. It's the only way that they could cause lighting--which is, literally, just electrons moving. With the fireballs the weaves are drawing in heat, but in this the weaves are only granting the energy to catalize the jump. If the weaves in the fireball are removed the heat disipates into the surrounding atmosphere, if those causing the lightning are removed--then the electrons will still leap to the nearest grounded point.

 

Yes, one could create a fire on a piece of wood, and then throw that, but if your looking for a comparison then it would be the act of throwing the wood that was similar to making the lightning. Making lightning is, in effect, merely throwing electrons.

 

As to whether the person merely funnels the electron discharge at the source--like, say, aiming a gun, or whether they polarise the ground around the target thus making it an annode--the most attractive point for the lightning to hit i dont know. Both are possible, though the later seems to me to require a knowledge lacking in the average channelers, so i'd suggest the first to be more likely.

 

Though i still believe his medallion can protect against saidin

 

It can--we see it work against Halima.

 

the lightning bolt itself was 'grounded' in Mat's general area (since Asmo got hit too), not on Mat himself. Thus, the lightning shot out, followed the path of electrons to where it was supposed to be grounded. The part of the atmosphere (sorry for the wording) where Mat was standing would no longer be charged, at which point the lighting bolt continued on normally, hitting the things closest to it. To use Luckers' gun analogy, the funnel the bullet travels through would dissipate a few inches away from him, which would not be enough to make it miss all of a sudden.

 

So yeah... Though not exactly in the way it normally would have worked, Rahvin still managed to take out Mat that way.

 

Well, we know its also possible to directly focus an electron discharge at Mat--we see Joline do it in KoD with the Seanchan 'spark weave'. Rhavin's discharge was indeed likely random, but it would still be possible to pull off even if it weren't.

[drewk]

I tend to think of the body's ability to channel the one power like, bear with me here, a harbor.  When one can channel, boats of goods come into the harbor and those goods are distributed at the whim of the people working the harbor.  If the harbor gets blocked off, it doesn't matter whether the goods that are trying to get in are in a huge trading vessel or in a canoe, they still can't get past the blockage.  So similarly, if the body is shielded from the true source, it doesn't matter the origin of the source flowing through it (be it from the true source or a well), the one power cannot be channeled.  Of course, I don't know this for a fact, but it makes sense to me.