The prince of ravens

[The winds of Time]

Ok now i got a interesting question.

 

We know from the first book that Crows/ravens are the DO's eyes. I'm wondering if the title The Prince of Ravens might entail somthing to the effect of darkfeind origin. and What exactly is the Prince of Ravens? Is he like the commander in cheif of the military? or could Mat be next in line to become seanchan emporor after Tuon kicks the bucket?

[Razor]

Ishamael was an advisor of HAwkwing and also looked in on the Senchean corrupting their prophecies, etc.  I think that is why the Ravens were given prominence.  However, the new pricne of the ravens is someone that has been on Ishy's hit list and he will rue the day his DF assasins kept failing miserably.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Indeed. "The fox that makes the ravens fly" and all that.

[Mr Ares]

What exactly is the Prince of Ravens? Is he like the commander in chief of the military? Or could Mat be next in line to become seanchan emporor after Tuon kicks the bucket?

I doubt either is the case. He is almost certainly not next in line - the Seanchan want soemone of Hawkwing's line, which Mat isn't. Most likely it's just a fancy title given to whoever happens to be married to the DotNM/Empress/Empress Elect/etc.

[wvlr]

What exactly is the Prince of Ravens? Is he like the commander in chief of the military? Or could Mat be next in line to become seanchan emporor after Tuon kicks the bucket?

I doubt either is the case. He is almost certainly not next in line - the Seanchan want soemone of Hawkwing's line, which Mat isn't. Most likely it's just a fancy title given to whoever happens to be married to the DotNM/Empress/Empress Elect/etc.

 

I disagree.

 

Mat was the Prince of Ravens  BEFORE  Tuon became Empress.    Now he might easily be considered something even higher.

 

Asside from that - Tuon had the power to "Enter a name in the book of the Blood herself" for Tylin which by the reaction she achieved by that statement apparently does make someone "High Blood".     That said, IMO the position of the Prince of Ravens, and/or husband of the Emperess has a high likelyhood of automatically raising the person to "High Blood" and even if it did not, Tuon would be likely to "write" his name in the book.

 

 

OOps!    Forgot to put last part.    Added this:

 

 

That said.    Since Semi killed all the royal family except for Tuon, and Surgoth (sp) considered herself as next in line,  it seems to show that "qualified" bloodlines are getting pretty thin.  This in addition to the issues above would seem to raise Mat pretty high in the pecking order.  Especially if Semi did as she said - killing off all the imperial line.

 

 

[Luckers]

Mat was the Prince of Ravens  BEFORE  Tuon became Empress.    Now he might easily be considered something even higher.

 

Asside from that - Tuon had the power to "Enter a name in the book of the Blood herself" for Tylin which by the reaction she achieved by that statement apparently does make someone "High Blood".    That said, IMO the position of the Prince of Ravens, and/or husband of the Emperess has a high likelyhood of automatically raising the person to "High Blood" and even if it did not, Tuon would be likely to "write" his name in the book.

 

I agree about raising to the Blood--though whether the High Blood becomes uncertain--indeed, the Seanchan have some very interesting twists on power and precedence, the one simple fact of it all being is that you do not rise to prominence if you don't have ability. Thus i do doubt that Mat would gain immediate power his role as Prince of the Ravens. Respect, deference, fear even... but real power...?

 

Beyond that i don't see Tuon granting him any sort of control over the armies. He's made clear that his path and hers diverge on many facets, and she knows that. She might ask him for advice, but direct control...?

 

That said.    Since Semi killed all the royal family except for Tuon, and Surgoth (sp) considered herself as next in line,  it seems to show that "qualified" bloodlines are getting pretty thin.  This in addition to the issues above would seem to raise Mat pretty high in the pecking order.  Especially if Semi did as she said - killing off all the imperial line.

 

Suroth stood pretty high to begin with--even at Falme she was second only to Turok, and he was ninth in line for the Crystal Throne. Galgan, I imagine, stands pretty high too, and doubtlessly there are countless more back in Seanchan even with Semirhage's... winnowing. I believe its said there are something like 52 claiments?

 

And Semirhage didn't kill of all of the imperial line, she killed off everyone who had a drop of Radhanan's blood. We know that there were those not of Radhanan's blood who had enough of Hawkwing's to lay claim. Indeed, if Turok was ninth we know he stood ahead of some of Radhanan's own children.

[wvlr]

 

Thanks for correcting my errors Luckers, but as you said:

 

"the Seanchan have some very interesting twists on power and precedence, the one simple fact of it all being is that you do not rise to prominence if you don't have ability."

 

He was the Prince of Ravens before now he is at least that and most likely is now even more.

 

He has repeatedly suprised Tuon with his abilities.

 

Would Tuon give him the ability to counter her own commands - obviously not.  Would she listen to his advise - obviously yes.    But I think that the question was about his rank in seccession should something happen to Tuon - which I really doubt will occur.

 

So it just boils down to: it could go either way because of  their unusual and little known "twists on power and precedence".

[Luckers]

Thanks for correcting my errors Luckers, but as you said:

 

"the Seanchan have some very interesting twists on power and precedence, the one simple fact of it all being is that you do not rise to prominence if you don't have ability."

 

He was the Prince of Ravens before now he is at least that and most likely is now even more.

 

He has repeatedly suprised Tuon with his abilities.

 

Ok, my point was that one does not rise immediately to prominence simple by who you are--end game, Mat will not suddenly become the Lord Commander of all Seanchan armies simply because he is married to Tuon.

 

Beyond that, yes he has surprised Tuon with his abillities. He's also bluntly stated that he will stand against her. She won't be giving him control of Seanchan forces.

 

Would Tuon give him the ability to counter her own commands - obviously not.  Would she listen to his advise - obviously yes.    But I think that the question was about his rank in seccession should something happen to Tuon - which I really doubt will occur.

 

Her listening to his advice... i doubt there will be a situation for it, and frakly i doubt she'd need it, and that he would want to offer advice to help her.

 

But as for his rank in succession... not a chance. He has none of Hawkwing's blood, at least not in the way that matters to the Seanchan line. Not a chance.

[aussie_ashaman123]

I think the Prince of Ravens is simply another fancy title, such as Daughter of the Nine Moons. And he only became the Prince of Ravens when Tuon completed the marriage ritual (it says so at the end of the chapter). And Tuon will give a lot of power to Mat, the entire Seanchan Forces to fight with at TG. after all, hes the highest ranking general she has, and probably the best as well (I'd lay money he was the best general in the world), he is friends with the Dragon Reborn, so any words coming from Mat would have more of an effect than anyone elses. If Tuons does die, Mat will not become Emporer, no male has been allowed to bear that title in about 800 years. He will stand just below her though, and will change a lot of the Imperial family customs, such as not killing off siblings.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well suppose the Empress is married, and the Daughter of Nine Moons is also married.

 

The two husbands can't both be the "Prince of Ravens," can they?

[Mr Ares]

Well suppose the Empress is married, and the Daughter of Nine Moons is also married.

 

The two husbands can't both be the "Prince of Ravens," can they?

Presumably they use different titles. Something along the lines of Emperor Consort, perhaps? Or possibly Husband (or Son-in-Law) of the Nine Moons?

 

Also, maybe we should think of Mat as the Prince Phillip of Seanchan?

[CUBAREY]

Prince of Ravens is more then a ceremonial title for the husband of the Seanchen Empress (may she live forever !) or the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

I think it both implies the marital tie but also a military rank. Think of the Prince of Ravens as having the same standing as the Queen's brother in Andor.  Tuon makes it quite clear that her choice of husband has much more to do with military and political considerations (Mat not only is a capable general, but an effective courtier and a spymaster) then personal attraction. The man who becomes the Prince of Ravens would thus not only be seen by the Seanchen Empress or heir apparent as a mate but as a political confidant and her military leader.

[Mr Ares]

Prince of Ravens is more then a ceremonial title for the husband of the Seanchen Empress (may she live forever !) or the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

I think it both implies the marital tie but also a military rank. Think of the Prince of Ravens as having the same standing as the Queen's brother in Andor.  Tuon makes it quite clear that her choice of husband has much more to do with military and political considerations (Mat not only is a capable general, but an effective courtier and a spymaster) then personal attraction. The man who becomes the Prince of Ravens would thus not only be seen by the Seanchen Empress or heir apparent as a mate but as a political confidant and her military leader.

I disagree. While Tuon certainly chose Mat for reasons other than romantic attraction, and the purpose of any marriage would be political in nature I don't think that Mat's abilities as a general were an important factor in her decision to marry him. The Seanchan army has no shortage of generals, so it is more likely that political considerations alone would be taken into account when deciding on a husband. Furthermore, if some sort of supreme military rank is par for the course in the husband of an empress/heir apparent then Tuon i a bit stuffed given Mat's comments about her empire being his enemy on their parting. Which is not to say that the Prince of the Ravens couldn't be the head of the Seanchan army, simply that he would not automaticaly become so because of who his wife is. It seems atypical of the Seanchan, given that they typically give high rank to those who have proved themselves worthy of it. An important political fctor to bear in mind in Mat's case is his friendship with the Dragon Reborn.

[Luckers]

Prince of Ravens is more then a ceremonial title for the husband of the Seanchen Empress (may she live forever !) or the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

I think it both implies the marital tie but also a military rank. Think of the Prince of Ravens as having the same standing as the Queen's brother in Andor.  Tuon makes it quite clear that her choice of husband has much more to do with military and political considerations (Mat not only is a capable general, but an effective courtier and a spymaster) then personal attraction. The man who becomes the Prince of Ravens would thus not only be seen by the Seanchen Empress or heir apparent as a mate but as a political confidant and her military leader.

 

There is no basis for associating the Prince of the Ravens with the First Prince of the Sword. Indeed given that Mat and Tuon directly acknowledged the reality that they would likely end up on pposite ends of the battlefield it seems more than clear that no such expectation of Mat leading the military exists.

 

Indeed, it goes completely against the basis of Seanchan society.

[CUBAREY]

QUOTE:

 

 

There is no basis for associating the Prince of the Ravens with the First Prince of the Sword. Indeed given that Mat and Tuon directly acknowledged the reality that they would likely end up on pposite ends of the battlefield it seems more than clear that no such expectation of Mat leading the military exists.

 

Indeed, it goes completely against the basis of Seanchan society.

 

My statement was based on the fact that for 800 years the ruler of Seanchen has been a woman.  Thus, marrying a man who has military talent is one of the factors that goes into the political decision of who the Daughter of the Nine Moons will marry.  True, Tuon and Mat have acknowledged that in their instance he will likely not initially lead her armies. But even here we should remember that the boat-rigger novel that RJ had planned would have had Mat taken that role in the reconquest of Seanchen. 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Guys you are all wrong.

 

Tuon chose Mat because she knows of a prophecy saying she would marry someone who remembers Artur Hawkwings face. She found out it was Mat. Thats all there is to it.

[RAND AL THOR]

Guys you are all wrong.

 

Tuon chose Mat because she knows of a prophecy saying she would marry someone who remembers Artur Hawkwings face. She found out it was Mat. Thats all there is to it.

 

LOL

;D ;D ;D

[Mr Ares]

Guys you are all wrong.

 

Tuon chose Mat because she knows of a prophecy saying she would marry someone who remembers Artur Hawkwings face. She found out it was Mat. Thats all there is to it.

We know. But is that why all Daughters of the Nine Moons marry? Tuon specifically states that she always knew she would marry for the Empire - for political rather thn personal reasons. So what are the political factors that go into choosing a husband? What qualities should said husband have? (Knowing Hawkwing's face! What more could any empress ask for?!) What duties are thrust upon said husband? There is more to the debate than just why Tuon married Mat. What about all the other Empresses husbands? Why were they chosen and what did they do? That's what we are arguing about. So are we still wrong?

 

My statement was based on the fact that for 800 years the ruler of Seanchen has been a woman. Thus, marrying a man who has military talent is one of the factors that goes into the political decision of who the Daughter of the Nine Moons will marry. True, Tuon and Mat have acknowledged that in their instance he will likely not initially lead her armies. But even here we should remember that the boat-rigger novel that RJ had planned would have had Mat taken that role in the reconquest of Seanchen.

Strictly speaking we don't know what will be happening in the planned outriggers, nor do we know who will be doing what. We only know it will be 10 years after TG and will feature Mat and Tuon, unless you know something I don't? For all we know, by that time she's won back the Empire by herself and is now trying to track down her absent husband and drag him back to Seandar. Also, why does the Empire being a ruled by a woman necessitate that a man with military talent be husband to the Empress? Can't woman learn about military matters for themselves? We know the Seanchan allow women to serve, and we know they can rise quite high. See Lieutenant-General Tylee Khirgan. Thus as it isn't necessary for a the husband to be a General, it is not necessary for the husband to have a military command as a result of who his wife is, and may even be counterproductive. Thus Prince of the Ravens is most likely a title that comes without any sort of high military position.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Also, why does the Empire being a ruled by a woman necessitate that a man with military talent be husband to the Empress? Can't woman learn about military matters for themselves? We know the Seanchan allow women to serve, and we know they can rise quite high. See Lieutenant-General Tylee Khirgan. Thus as it isn't necessary for a the husband to be a General, it is not necessary for the husband to have a military command as a result of who his wife is, and may even be counterproductive. Thus Prince of the Ravens is most likely a title that comes without any sort of high military position.

 

 

Lrt's see, we knoe that revolts are quite commen in the Empire. We also know that the poilitical ihjnfighting (which seems to include assasinations) is rampent not only in the empire but within the royal family. Presuming that the Empress herself does not take actual control over military manuevers during times of revolts or expansions (its possible that she could but would be difficult to administer a large empire from the saddle in battles) then the husband would seem the rationale alternative. 

 

[Luckers]

Oh, i think its more than valid to suggest that military prowse would be something an Empress looks for in a mate, but to suggest its a requirement, or that it immediately means that Mat would hold some position as Over-General of the Seanchan because of it seems excessive--and in direct contradiction to Seanchan practicality when it comes to given people authority.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

We know. But is that why all Daughters of the Nine Moons marry? Tuon specifically states that she always knew she would marry for the Empire - for political rather thn personal reasons. So what are the political factors that go into choosing a husband? What qualities should said husband have? (Knowing Hawkwing's face! What more could any empress ask for?!) What duties are thrust upon said husband? There is more to the debate than just why Tuon married Mat. What about all the other Empresses husbands? Why were they chosen and what did they do? That's what we are arguing about. So are we still wrong?

UNQUOTE

 

In a world where prophecies mean everything, where prophecies predict what MUST happen, that alone would have been reason for Tuon to marry Mat, in my oppinion. That prophecy being fulfilled would definitely have benefited the Empire, as the Seanchan obviously are Hawkwings descendants. So yes, I still think all the other reasons are wrong. mat being a general and everything just happens to be useful as well.

 

Heres a qeuestion (my memory is abit vague on this bit) Does the Deathwatch Guard have any links to ravens? Anything at all? I have been thinking for a while that the Prince of Ravens will be head of the Deathwatch Guard.

[Luckers]

The Deathwatch Guards, like all property of the Crystal Throne, wear the Ravens. It's stated that they quite proudly display them which the seekers conceal theirs. That being said any da'covale belonging to the Crystal Throne wear the ravens. Theres a story of a Lord and Lady getting the ravens tatooed on them while they were drunk, and that their descendents would still be servants because the raven is forever.

 

If your idea is correct, then it suggests that the husband of the Empress is merely the leader of her property. A rather dismal idea for Mat, though sustained by Egwene's dreams of two ravens settling on his shoulders, and settling into the skin.

[Guest Dreadlord]

No the Deathwatch Guard protect the Empress dont they? So I was thinking Mat had become the head of her Guard. But like everything else its all speculation and I dont usually do much speculating with regard to the Seanchan.

[Mr Ares]

Also, why does the Empire being a ruled by a woman necessitate that a man with military talent be husband to the Empress? Can't woman learn about military matters for themselves? We know the Seanchan allow women to serve, and we know they can rise quite high. See Lieutenant-General Tylee Khirgan. Thus as it isn't necessary for a the husband to be a General, it is not necessary for the husband to have a military command as a result of who his wife is, and may even be counterproductive. Thus Prince of the Ravens is most likely a title that comes without any sort of high military position.

Let's see, we know that revolts are quite commen in the Empire. We also know that the poilitical infighting (which seems to include assasinations) is rampant not only in the empire but within the royal family. Presuming that the Empress herself does not take actual control over military manoeuvres during times of revolts or expansions (its possible that she could but would be difficult to administer a large empire from the saddle in battles) then the husband would seem the rational alternative.

Husband as opposed to loyal general that she hasn't married? If it's because of the potential for backstabbing, bear in mind that that exists even with a husband. Again, I see no reason why the Prince of the Ravens would always be a talented General, nor do I see that his marriage would automatically confer upon him such a senior military position. Likewise, there's no reason why she shouldn't marry a General and give him a senior position, I just disagree that such a position would come automatically as a result of marriage rather than something deserved on its own merits.

 

We know. But is that why all Daughters of the Nine Moons marry? Tuon specifically states that she always knew she would marry for the Empire - for political rather thn personal reasons. So what are the political factors that go into choosing a husband? What qualities should said husband have? (Knowing Hawkwing's face! What more could any empress ask for?!) What duties are thrust upon said husband? There is more to the debate than just why Tuon married Mat. What about all the other Empresses husbands? Why were they chosen and what did they do? That's what we are arguing about. So are we still wrong?

In a world where prophecies mean everything, where prophecies predict what MUST happen, that alone would have been reason for Tuon to marry Mat, in my opinion. That prophecy being fulfilled would definitely have benefited the Empire, as the Seanchan obviously are Hawkwings descendants. So yes, I still think all the other reasons are wrong. mat being a general and everything just happens to be useful as well.

So do all Daughters of the Nine Moons have prophecies to help them choose their husbands?

[Luckers]

No the Deathwatch Guard protect the Empress dont they? So I was thinking Mat had become the head of her Guard. But like everything else its all speculation and I dont usually do much speculating with regard to the Seanchan.

 

Umm... well, yes the Deathwatch Guard do protect the Empress... or her interests....

 

But that doesn't change anything. They are still property like any other, and marked as such. If it signifies for them it signifies for all that wear the ravens.