Moiraine Lanfear

[Angel28]

Ok this seems as good a place as any to put this here's my unorthidox theory about Moiraine's Return to Randland :lol:

 

Basicly I think Moiraine is going to come back a very changed women, both in the power and in body. I think she's going to be coming back in Lanfear's body with Lanfear's strength in the power but without all the knowledge of the age of Legends to back her up...I could be very wrong in this and untilly I read Knife of Dreams I had discarded this theory and my Imagination running wild on me but after reading Knife of Dreams I started think that maybe just maybe I've got something here...more then likey it's just air but hear me out no harm done in a little speculation First of all both Moiraine and Lanfear fell into the that twisted stone dooway in The Fire's of Heaven...and everybody thinks she dies. Later it's revialed that Min only vision not to come true was that she was suppose to be there with Rand in order for him to win the last battle...of course Min is never wrong and so she has to be alive somewhere...but I'm getting away form my point...hehe

We know that Lanfear is back we assume that she died and that the dark one gave her another body but what if that's not the case. We also know that she's less powerfull now then she was before her time with the Elfin, if the DO is going to remake Lanfear in anothe body why wouldn't he want her to be as powerfull as she was before you would think that he would want to take full advantage of the power that she had at her dissposal that would only make sence why would he bring her back less powerfull just be cruel...he's he is evil and he is perfectly capable of bringing her back with less power then she had but, it she's more usefull with all her power. What if the body she has now was Moiraine's. Moiraine was considerable less powerfull then Lanfear. Moiraine has always been discribed as a small slite women and the discibbtions he gives of Lanfears new body although rather Vague does sound a bit like Moiraine, I believe in Winter's Heart she is disscribed as a small slite women. What if while they were both in the world of the Elfin When Moiraine was allowed to ask for the the three things she wanted and one of the things she askes for is to be more powerfull. We know that the Elfin have the ability to monipulate memories and to grant her wish the just tranfer Moiraine into Lanfear's body and visa versa. Lanfear is exspent for asking for anything because of the Silver belt she was wearing since it breaks the rule's, if I remember correctly Silver is one of the forbidden items. Once they're done with Lanfear they just kick her back out into the normal world and keep Moiraine. I think it would be possilbe of course anything is possible it is RJ's world. I thought I would throw this out and get everybody's reaction to this Theory, Please feel free to pick it apart and prove me wrong just try and be kind...isn't this more interesting then who killed Asmodean?

 

Angel

[old hob]

That's quite an interesting theory, all i have to add against it is the finn's only forbid iron, things with which to make fire and musical instruments not silver.

[Kadere]

Cyndane is described as a short young woman with long silver hair, vivid blue eyes and an impressive bosom. This is not the same body as Moiriane. Moriaine has dark hair and eyes.

 

The idea of switching their power could be possible and has been discussed, but Cydane's body is not Moiriane's.

[Leafburner]

I liked where you were coming from with this theory, but I don't agree.

 

I don't think Cyndane is Lanfear in Moiaine's body. the description of Cyndane sighted above is reason enough why.

 

I also remember reading something on RJ's BLOG regarding the DO and his decisions to reincarnate Foresaken in strange bodies. Balthamel as a woman, Lanfear as a mcuh weaker woman, etc.

 

As far as I can remember, RJ mentioned that the DO doesn't put much thought into the choosing of a new body for his dead Foresaken. He just looks for a healthy vessel that can channel that he can put his Foresaken souls into. The DO is not concerned with material things, or the concerns of vanity the Foresaken have. Simply, he just doesn't care one wit about what bodies they're given. If they'd done their job right, he wouldn't have to reincarnate them at all.

 

Anyway, I just thought that may help explain why the DO chooses such different new bodies. He doesn't really choose them. He just grabs the first healthy body he can find. I guess it was just luck that Ishamael was reincarnated in a body that was equal in strength in the power to him.

[Angel28]

Ok I didn't remember that Cyndane was discribed as a Short young wowmen with Long Silver hair and Vivid blue eye's and impressive bosom...

 

I do remember the ah impressive bosom part now form Knife of Dreams now :P

 

I thought Silver was part of the Finns...sad thing is that I just read those scenes in The Shadow Rising not that long ago.

 

Ok the Lanfear in Moiraine's body has been shot through with hole's although I do still think it possible that Moiraine may come back in Lanfear's body. That would make things rather interesting for Rand...

 

Angel

[Guest Majsju]

The Finns don't have the power to transmigrate souls.

[bcxanth]

The Finns don't have the power to transmigrate souls.

WE don't really know that for sure. :) Granted, I doubt they have that power, but you never know for sure. :)

[Guest Majsju]

The Finns don't have the power to transmigrate souls.

WE don't really know that for sure. :) Granted' date=' I doubt they have that power, but you never know for sure. :)[/quote']

 

That we know for sure, RJ confirmed that during a session at D*Con -05.

 

Tamyrlin:

The snakes and foxes seem to have a lot of powers. Do they also have the power. I have two questions: can they transmigrate souls? Two: can they hold the soul of an individual they have killed.

 

RJ: No… No to both.

http://p079.ezboard.com/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=3.topic

[Musenge]

Also while Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, Graendal still notes that she is stronger than her and Moghedien. Moiraine wasn't that strong.

 

I think her lowering of power is probably a punishment from the DO or she is masking her strength like Messana in the tower.

 

Aran Gar, Osan Gar and Morridin experienced no power losses. Aran Gar gets a female body and still wields saidin to the same extent he did before.

[Guest cwestervelt]

This has never appeared to be a popular idea, but I think the lowering of her strength is a restriction of the new body. The ability to Channel appears tied to both the soul and the body. I suspect that, when the DO transmigrates the soul, the new body must come from someone who could learn to Channel. The "stronger" the body, the greater the ability.

[Musenge]

Except that Halima channels Saidin and noticed no change from being Balthamel. :D

 

I think it stays with your soul purely. If the DO needed a body that could channel that would severly restrict him on available bodies. A couple raids into Arafel won't be that productive.

[dyring]

Iv heared quite a few times people voicing the opinion that Lanfears strength was due to some deal with the finns in the age of legends, and thats why she was/would be weaker if the do put her in a new body.

 

Another teory is that her strength was a reward from the DO for opening bore in the first place(wether she did this knowingly or not). There have been a few hints that Lanfear was as strong as a woman could be. Then, after her.. mishaps, the DO would most likely not be giving that strength back( He might not be abel to either, since even if the prison is loosening, its not open yet).

 

 

 

//dyring

[Guest cwestervelt]

Except that Halima channels Saidin and noticed no change from being Balthamel. :D

 

I think it stays with your soul purely. If the DO needed a body that could channel that would severly restrict him on available bodies. A couple raids into Arafel won't be that productive.

 

Halima's disproves nothing. It was a man's soul' date=' so the Saidin. Osan'gar and Aran'gar were given "the best that could be taken in the Borderlands", they weren't just given any old body that was lying around. From the question of the week, we know that the body needs to by "suitable" to the Dark One's needs. From there we also know that they [b']can't[/b] use just any body.

 

About 1 in 100 people can Channel, so it wouldn't take may raids to get a body that can channel. There also isn't any shortage of Foresaken strong channelers, they just haven't been going to the White Tower.

[Musenge]

I disagree

 

How many channelers on Morridins level do you really expect to find? Rand is one in 3000 years for a reason. The DO can't just go finding people with that much potential. Doesn't make sense.

 

Halima DOES disprove your theory because in the physical remember that channeling is genetic and the reason people in the AoL were so prominent and powerful is because the played with genetics to bring about strong channelers, Aiel with the voice, Nym and so on. That means men are genetically programmed to channel ONLY saidin.

 

The DO goes beyond such limitations and does what he wants or Halima would HAVE TO channel Saidar instead. If the DO wanted Cyndane to be Lanfear's strenth he easily could have no matter what body he put her in. He only cares that the body is healthy enough to get about in.

[Trib4l]

There has never been anything from RJ saying that channeling is 100% genetic. It has always been put in a perspective of requiring both a soul and a body that were channel "enabled". The body needs to be capable, but the soul determines whether it be saidar/saidin, and how much of either. Since the DO can only affect souls (transmigration, etc...) it can be assumed that he was able to affect Lanfear's strength when he reissued her as Cyndane.

 

If they only need a body, and it didn't matter whether or not that body had the ability for channeling, then they could just grab anyone and transmigrate souls. Hence the "best that could be found" statement. There are a limited number of people who can channel, therefor those were the best that could be found.

 

If the body were the limiting factor, then the chances of the DO finding a male and 2 female channelers in the Borderlands of the Forsaken's strengh becomes even more impossibly remote.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Rand is not 1 powerful channeller in 3000 years. Most of the False Dragons, Logain included, were nearly as strong, if not as strong. Once Egwene and Rand instigated active searches for channellers, high potential Channellers started popping in areas that with closed gene pools. The more isolated the community, the less thinning of the blood lines. As such, areas like the Two Rivers, or remote Borderland communities (ones most subject to raids) have a higher likelyhood of strong channellers than cities and inland areas.

 

Halima shows that the soul determines if the person will channel Saidin or Saidar. It also proves that the body does not determine that aspect of channelling. What it does not disprove a connection between the body and ultimate strength in the power.

 

During the Age of Legends 2 to 3 percent of people could channel and only about 1 percent late in the 3rd age proves that the ability is also tied to genetics. If not you would still see 2 to 3 percent of people channelling.

[Luckers]

Not nessasarily, other factors such as their diet, their style of living, their cleanliness, their medical facilities could all influence a babies development.

 

That being said i do think the decrease in the amount of channelers it is a result of genetics, but other influences could impact.

 

It does seem unlikely for such a large genetic alteration to take place in such a short time. Especially since the majority of channelers in Randland never surface. Aside from the Aes Sedai, only sparkers appear... that leaves a whole lot, maybe as much as 10,000 channelers breeding like normal. And what about in places like the Aiel Waste or among the Sea Folk where channelers breed like normal.

 

I suppose it could be influenced by the fact that male and female channelers were no longer breeding together, as was likely the case in the Age of Legends given their long lives...

 

As for Moiraine. I don't see her coming back in either Lanfears body, nor with Lanfears power. It's be too much of a cop-out... why would the finns do that, especially for someone who comes in the midst of a battle with a women of the Shadow (we know they punish things related to the shadow) and destroy the door, creating a massive fire. A fire that Rand could not put out, merely containe. In Finnland it likely would have been infinitely worse with no one around to channel and contain the blaze. Plus we all know how little the finns like fire.

 

The Finns are not magically creatures there to provide a survice. They in fact seem to be fairly nasty creatures... they do something for what they get in return. And lets not forget that we saw one wearing human skin. No, after that arrival i dont see them being nice to Moiraine and giving her a power boost or anything else. Far more likely is the fact that both Moiraine and Lanfear were stilled in the fall through the doorway, and Moiraine will return unable to channel at all.

[Guest cwestervelt]

A couple of assumptions that have cannot be proved.

 

We do not know that the Finnland side of the doorway was physically damaged at all. We only know they one on this side was destroyed, breaking the connection and rendering the Finnland one inoperable. The likelyhood of a physical connection between the two is minimal.

 

We do not know that bringing someone connected to the shadow has dire consequences. We don't even know if they arrived together. All we know is that asking the Aelfinn questions about the Shadow can have dire consequences and that the rules are different. We even know that asking questions touching the Shadow does not always have dire consequences. After all, Rand asked a question concerning winning the Last Battle and got an answer. Such a question directly touches on the Shadow no matter how it is phrased.

 

When Moiraine comes back, it will be as Moiraine. Neither stilled nor body swapped. She is still alive because, unlike Mat (and likely Lanfear), she has not "concluded" her dealings, and thus has not yet needed to pay for services rendered.

[Luckers]

We do not know that the Finnland side of the doorway was physically damaged at all. We only know they one on this side was destroyed, breaking the connection and rendering the Finnland one inoperable. The likelyhood of a physical connection between the two is minimal.

 

Moiraine and Lanfear would have been doing exactly what they were doing when they come out of the door on the other side, if it caused one side to explode, then it likely caused the other side to as well, and your argument against the two being linked is wrong. Given that they are a joined transportaion device the likelyhood of them being joined is in fact great. A physical connection was never suggested... they dont exist in the same space-time. But they are linked through the energy that creates the doorway effect. If one was destroyed its more then probable that this had an effect on the other, other then just severing the pathway.

 

We do not know that bringing someone connected to the shadow has dire consequences. We don't even know if they arrived together. All we know is that asking the Aelfinn questions about the Shadow can have dire consequences and that the rules are different. We even know that asking questions touching the Shadow does not always have dire consequences. After all, Rand asked a question concerning winning the Last Battle and got an answer. Such a question directly touches on the Shadow no matter how it is phrased.

 

Firstly, physics suggests that they did arrive together. We've seen that atomic structures that enter at the same time end up in the same place, in that people make it through whole, not missing an arm, or a leg, or their clothes. Moiraine and Lanfear entered at the same time, touching (not that that would be nessasary), they'll have made it through together, or not at all.

 

Secondly, that the Aelfinn have a specific thing about the Shadow is all that is important. If this is relevant enough for Moiraine to have heard about it, then the question of the shadow is one that is significant to the Aelfinn, and since we know from Cyndane that the Aelfinn were present during her time in Finnland, then yes, we do know that the fact that Lanfear was of the shadow would be a concideration.

 

Stop thinking about them as magical creatures, and start thinking of them as people. Concider...

1. They have indicated a disdain for the Shadow in the past.

2. They have indicated a disdain for fire in the past.

3. They have been seen wearing human skin in the past.

4. They have been willing to hurt people in the past.

 

Moiraine arrives with fire (wether the ter'angreal was destroyed or not, some of the fire would have made the trip across) and she comes with a person as bound to the shadow as it is possible to be. In the process of this she severs access to something that the Finns obviously value--emotions, memories and whatever other price the Eelfinn extract from their visitors. Since she can't escape (or she would have) the Finn have no reason to offer her anything to take what they want. Certainly not more strength in the power. the fact that she needs to be rescued more then indicates that the Finn arn't being loving hosts... and yet for some reason people think they are going to grant her wishes? They arn't genies in a bottle, of Billy under the hill... thats one thing RJ has done time and again, none of his characters are one dimensional, and the Finns wont be an exception. They are living, breathing creatures with every reason to be pissed with Moiraine, and no reason to do her any favours.

 

When Moiraine comes back, it will be as Moiraine. Neither stilled nor body swapped. She is still alive because, unlike Mat (and likely Lanfear), she has not "concluded" her dealings, and thus has not yet needed to pay for services rendered.

 

The likliehood of her getting even a chance to ask for anything is extremely remote. Additionally do you really think the Finns could be stopped by a loophole so pathetic? Do you really think, for that matter, that the finn are magically bound to do whats asked of them? Please. The current situation is the result of a treaty with humanity, one that likely no longer holds given the destruction of the doorway. The finns held to it from honour, not from any actual need. No, Moiraine and Lanfear were burned out as they fell through the gate, and Moiraine is now held captive.

[GTPapabear]

Wait Wait Wait Wait Wait... This just hit me like a ton of bricks while I was reading these posts.

 

Lanfear DID make some sort of deal with the Finns Back in the AOL. SOOOOOOO... If that were true, Then isn't there a RULE that she cannont go through the Gateway twice?

 

Therefor there are three explinations...

 

1.) That she was destroyed upon entering the gateway for attempting to go through twice. And before you shoot that down, I remember that Matt tried to go through a second time and couldn't, so maybe lanfear was sorta "piggy-backed" through the gateway, but since she wasn't supposed to be there in the first place, was immediately destroyed/killed by the finns.

 

2.) That she had never passed therough the terangreal in the first place. In which case would mean that she never recived any "extended powers" to begin with so it would not explain her decreased powers now.

 

3.) there is more than one doorway to the Finns. I know there is two we know of, one that was destroyed when Moraine and Lanfear went through, but maybe there are more than these two we know of.

 

Remember, Lanfears domain was the World of Dreams. And that sis where we first see the silver tower thingy, by Perrin during one of his Wolf-dreams. There has got to be more than one way to get to these specific finns.

[Luckers]

She didn't make a deal with them in the AOL, but she did know of them. It seems likely they were common knowledge back then.

 

Secondly we know she did go through the doorway. Cyndane thinks to herself of her time amongst the Finns, with it specifically being after that that she became weaker in the power.

 

Thirdly, the Tower Genjii does exist in the real world. Mat and Rand see it from Domon's boat, which means its somewhere in Andor on the Two Rivers side of the river.

[Wise One]

Okay, first post, but I had a few thoughts, particularly regarding Lanfear.

 

Rand is not 1 powerful channeller in 3000 years. Most of the False Dragons' date=' Logain included, were nearly as strong, if not as strong.[/quote']

 

On what is this based? I dont remember anywhere Rand's power been compared to anyone else. Plus, as he is a saidin channeler, you cant even gauge his potential, only his current ability. I personally believe he is the most powerful channeler, with the possible except of Moridin. Also, Alivia is the only channeler who I think is ever compared to forsaken level power, and she is a very old damane.

 

On the soul/body debate, I think the first body probably has an impact on the channeling ability, but not when the soul is transfered. The 'gars and Moridin show no change in ability, only Lanfear, so I think there might be another reason for her loss of power. I also think the body availability thing is more to do with other aspects than channeling ability. Getting hold of bodies that arent currently being used for other useful things is probably hard. You dont want to steal one that would be recognised, for instance.

 

Here is one theory I came up with:

 

Lanfear goes through the doorway and meets the flinn. There, she makes her wishes (possibibly killing Asmodean, who knows? But thas is an aside), but at the end, she is killed as the price like Mat. She could have course simply been killed because of who she is, and therefore not get any wishes.

 

As a result of this death, Lanfear needs a new body, which the DO provides. However, in doing so he also deliberately lowers her channeling ability as punishment and to make her more subservient (on top of the mind trap) But why punish her?

 

There is evidence failure doesnt necessarily get punishment, as shown by the other recycled forsaken (especially Aginor, who was killed by his greed). That being said, Lanfear did much worse than failing. She actually plotted against the DO, and in all probability, the DO knew that, so brought her back in a way such that she would have to obey Moridin. Note that Asmodean appears to have been punished by the DO for similar reasons. Also ties in with the name meaning "Last Chance". The main argument against this is he still brought her back more powerful than Graendal or Moghedian, though Mesanna and Sermihage aren't mentioned.

 

Where this leaves Moiraine, I don't know, but I doubt she'll be back in a different body.

[RobertAlexWillis]

When Lanfear when through the gate, she was intent on killing Rand al'Thor. She is obsessed with him. If she got any wishes, you can be sure one would have dealt with him.

 

The next part is speculative. I would imagine that her reduction in ability to channel is a part of the punishment inflicted on her soul by the Dark One. Who knows what he can do to a soul between the time of death and transmigration? But when she comes back, she is in a clearly subservient position. It is, as she is named, her "last chance". A reduction in ability would lend itself to that situation.

 

The Eelfinn have to be able to affect channeling in some way too, or they could not have made Mat's medallion. Unless someone else gave it to them, and they just had it in storage, but given it's shape that seems unlikely.

 

And you're right, the body does not impact the ability to channel. Otherwise Halima would start channeling saidar. Shaidar Haran told Halima, "The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body." (Lord of Chaos, The First Message, p.60) In other words, she starts thinking like a woman consciously (mind bends to body), but the essence of her connection to the power remains male (body bends to soul). Since the ability to channel is linked to the soul here, it is reasonable to suppose that the Dark One can affect that ability while he has a soul in his control.

[Luckers]

On what is this based? I dont remember anywhere Rand's power been compared to anyone else. Plus, as he is a saidin channeler, you cant even gauge his potential, only his current ability. I personally believe he is the most powerful channeler, with the possible except of Moridin. Also, Alivia is the only channeler who I think is ever compared to forsaken level power, and she is a very old damane.

 

Rand's power has been commented on several times, and yes, whilst he is amongst the most powerful channelers, there have been others as powerful... Moridin... Logain and Aginor are both very close, as is Taim and Demandred. He is very likely the strongest a channeler can be, but he is not the only one to have that strength in the past three thousand years.

 

And no, Alivia is not the only one compared to a forsaken in strength. Both Logain and Taim are up there, and Sharina Melloy. Nynaeve was a macth for Moghedian in Tenchico, and since she hasn't yet reached her potential its likely she's stronger now. The two Wise Ones who oversaw Elayne and Aviendha's sister bonding are both conciderably stronger then Elayne. Talaan the Sea Folk Windfinders apprentice is up there... either as strong as Ny, or stronger. Someryn, one of the Aiel Wise Ones with the Shaido is described as 'not inconsiderable' by Graendal... and thats just from the channelers we've encountered, there are likely far more of equal and greater strength with the Wise Ones, damane and Windfinders... probably amongst the new novices too.

 

As for Lanfears decrease in strength... to date the only way we know for a woman to lose strength in the power is to be severed from the source, and healed by another woman. Something that is more then possible concidering what happened to Moiraines bond with Lan, and that if either Lanfear or Moiraine could still channel, them being kept prisoner by the Finns seems unlikely--and we know the Finns can be fought with the power. Rand does so in tSR. Also if Lanfear was killed and moved into a body and then it was discovered she couldn't channel, then at that time only women knew how to heal severing, so thats who the Dark One would call on... A black sister from the rebel camp.

 

The stuff about the Dark One doing it as punishment is conjecture... there is no evidence. And moreover it makes no sense. If the dark One wished to punish Lanfear, then the cour'sovra more then does that. Why would he weaken one of the few tools he has left. Once she was mindbound she is absolutely no threat whatsoever, so why weaken her? It makes absolutely no sense for the Dark One to do this.

 

The Eelfinn have to be able to affect channeling in some way too, or they could not have made Mat's medallion. Unless someone else gave it to them, and they just had it in storage, but given it's shape that seems unlikely.

 

You mean the fox? The eye is the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, possibly it was made as a part of the treaty between them. The fact is though that its a ter'angreal, and the finn have displayed no ability to channel, therefore it seems unlikely they can make ter'angreal.

[Cybertrolloc]

Luckers, care to stop in to the trainwreck that is the Asmodean thread?

 

A couple of assumptions that cannot be proved.

 

We do not know that the Finnland side of the doorway was physically damaged at all. We only know they one on this side was destroyed' date=' breaking the connection and rendering the Finnland one inoperable. The likelyhood of a physical connection between the two is minimal.[/quote']

It's safe to infer that something happened on the Finn side to cause the fiery mess on Randland side (it wasn't instantaneous). Rand was channeling when he stepped out of the Aelfinn door, no explosion there...

 

All we know is that asking the Aelfinn questions about the Shadow can have dire consequences and that the rules are different. We even know that asking questions touching the Shadow does not always have dire consequences. After all' date=' Rand asked a question concerning winning the Last Battle and got an answer. Such a question directly touches on the Shadow no matter how it is phrased.[/quote']

Rand also has Taveran mojo and whipped out his flaming sword ;) Otherwise agreed, excepting Jordan's hint that both Finn aren't cool with the Shadow (naming Dark One in Finnland is *really* bad).

 

When Moiraine comes back' date=' it will be as Moiraine. Neither stilled nor body swapped. She is still alive because, unlike Mat (and likely Lanfear), she has not "concluded" her dealings, and thus has not yet needed to pay for services rendered.[/quote']

So we can't make any speculation about the Finn except the huge one you just made ;)

 

Another possible source of Lanfear's power loss: remember that Moiraine bats away the angreal Lanfear was using before tackling her into FinnWorld. Not being burned out would be among the best things you could hope for there. Considering Suiane and Leane went from top tier among Aes Sedai to at least lower than average, I have a hard time buying that Lanfear started that much stronger than Graendal...