"REMNANT OF A REMNANT SHALL BE SAVED"

[RAND AL THOR]

"REMNANT OF A REMNANT SHALL BE SAVED"

 

That is the Aiel Prophecy regarding the Car'acarn. I think this 'remnant' refers to the Shaido. The shaido are currently returning to the Waste and a new chief for them is also about to be chosen. Therava clearly states that they will NOT live the Waste for a very long time. So, unless the Waste is suddenly raided by a huge host of Trollocs, the Shaido will survive TG. Could this be the remnant? It is a horrible idea. The Shaido are the ones who deserve to die after all the trouble they caused.

 

I just got this thought in passing. I hope it will not end this way but it seems all too likely. And remember: The Shaido have already suffered heavy losses, so this fits the part of the prophecy :remnant of a remnantm, where the first 'remnant' would refer to the Shaido (Since they split off from the other clans) and the second 'remnant' would be the shaido currently remaining after the war in Cairhien etc...

 

I do not want this to happen. But it seems all too likely. :(

[eol]

yeah, its unfortunate but i think they have learned their lesson after all the bloodshed.

[Aemon raHal]

Yeah, it's what I think will happen.

 

I fear the majority of the Aiel will be destroyed at the last battle.

Alot of the Prophecies speak of Blood at Shayol Ghil - and I think they can be taken as Rand's actual blood or his people - The Aiel...

 

"The blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul will free mankind from the Shadow." 

"His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation." "

"...... In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

 

So when it says "He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood" they're talking about people and of actual blood.... perhaps in the other prophecies too!

 

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

"REMNANT OF A REMNANT SHALL BE SAVED"

 

That is the Aiel Prophecy regarding the Car'acarn. I think this 'remnant' refers to the Shaido. The shaido are currently returning to the Waste and a new chief for them is also about to be chosen. Therava clearly states that they will NOT live the Waste for a very long time. So, unless the Waste is suddenly raided by a huge host of Trollocs, the Shaido will survive TG. Could this be the remnant? It is a horrible idea. The Shaido are the ones who deserve to die after all the trouble they caused.

 

I just got this thought in passing. I hope it will not end this way but it seems all too likely. And remember: The Shaido have already suffered heavy losses, so this fits the part of the prophecy :remnant of a remnantm, where the first 'remnant' would refer to the Shaido (Since they split off from the other clans) and the second 'remnant' would be the shaido currently remaining after the war in Cairhien etc...

 

I do not want this to happen. But it seems all too likely. :(

No, it's not as if there aren't tons of other Aeil left in the Waste. The other Aiel clans only took 40,000 spears a piece out. The Shaido, when they mustered everyone who could fight had 160,000 spears. So the other clans left spearfighters behind, plus all the women, children, farmers/herders, etc. All those Aiel will have to die so I expect a huge raid in the waste. The Shaido I don't expect that they'll even reach the waste. They'll get unlucky and end up in the path of a huge Trolloc Army. The handful will either by a small fraction of the army Rand's gathered, or perhaps the prophecy refers to those who fled due to the bleakness.

[Luckers]

Firstly concider that it may not be as bad as all that. The prophecy actually states that he will save 'the remnant of a remnant'--THE remnant is a specifier, and breaks the sentence. Recall too that those who spoke it lived with the Jenn and knew the Da'shain. It's entirely possible that the prophecy refers to a remnant of the current incarnation, which is in itself a remnant already of the Da'shain Aiel.

 

Away from the drastic implications of the double remnant, I very much doubt that it refers to the Shaido. The prophecy makes more than clear that those who survive will survive as a direct result of Rand's efforts on their behalf. Far more likely to me is that the prophecy refers to a new Aiel culture evolving--and we've already seen it in the unification of the clans, the revelation of the Da'shain, the Bleakness, the change in position of the Aiel with the rest of the world, the change in the Wise Ones through their dealings with Shaido and Aes Sedai--and it will and must continue... with men now able to channel normally the balance between Chiefs and Wise Ones is thrown in chaos, and with Travelling the barriers established between lands will fade.

 

Aiel culture is in flux, and when it settles again it will be quite different--a remnant, with ties to the old culture as much as that culture had ties to the Da'shain. Don't get me wrong though, i think the Last Battle will be paid in blood, and especially Aiel blood, but i just dont think thats what this prophecy refers to.

[skalors3]

I always thought that this was fairly obvious if you consider what the Aiel were, and therefore, what they must become again with the turning of the wheel.  I think the remnant are the Aiel who threw down their spears at the bowl.  The remnant of the remnant are those who go to find the way of the leaf again.  I think the others will be destroyed in battle. 

[RAND AL THOR]

I had completely forgotten about the other Aiel left in the Waste....this makes my proposal near enough worthless. Sorry everyone, since Aiel belonging to the other clans are STILL present in the Waste, it seems unlikely that the Shaido will the ones saved.

 

On page 408 of the Shadow Rising, the Aes Sedai fortells the prophecy about Rand. In that, the phrase 'remnant of a remnant shall be saved' is absent. Can anyone tell me where that phrase originated? If it isnt directly in the fortelling then it may be misleading. However, the prophecy does say : HE WILL TAKE YOU BACK AND HE WILL DESTROY YOU.

I think this would refer to destroying their current nature and beliefs. There will be bloodshed,yes, but perhaps not as much as we feared. Perhaps the 'destruction' refers to destroying the Aiel way of a life filled with fighting and returning them to the Way of the Leaf. That would certainly match the prophecy.

 

So thanks to this forum my viewpoint of this matter is completely changed. Praised be the internet and praised be dragonmount.com! ;D

[Luckers]

It's from the Shadow Rising, Chapter 34.

 

The full verse is...

 

He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live

 

You'll note the use of 'those that call themselves Aiel'. Another indication that the remnant of a remnant refers to the Da'shain, not modern Aiel. He will save a remnant of the remnants of the Da'shain.

[RAND AL THOR]

Thanx luckers.

 

Since it says 'shall HE save' we can assume that it has nothing to do with the Shaido.

[sunshine + gasoline]

That verse always made me feel bad since I love Aiel. I certainly hope it's not Shaido who lives on out of all Aiel. That would be horrible!

[skalors3]

I still think by breaking the Aiel, he saved those who broke their spears.

[Jehaine]

Personally, i believe this refers to the following:

 

The remnant is the number of Aiel that didn't succumb to the Bleakness. The Shaido are pretty much doomed anyway, as every single Clan broke their ties to the Shaido as it is. The only interaction they'll have with other Clans is by means of a raiding party or two, and they'll eventually die out through attrition.

 

The remnant of a remnant refers to the second time a vast amoubnt of Aiel is lost, namely TG itself. The ones that haven't been claimed by the Bleakness, those that still have the will to fight, they will be the ones duking it out in TG along with the others. Quite a vast amount of them will die again, but the survivors will be what could be referred to as a remnant of a remnant.

 

But that's just my two cents.

[Charlz Guybon]

It's from the Shadow Rising, Chapter 34.

 

The full verse is...

 

He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live

 

You'll note the use of 'those that call themselves Aiel'. Another indication that the remnant of a remnant refers to the Da'shain, not modern Aiel. He will save a remnant of the remnants of the Da'shain.

Wouldn't that imply the opposite. If he is to save the remanant of a remanant of those who call themselves Aiel, then the prophecy must refer to the modern Aiel.

[Luckers]

It doesn't say that though--it says that he shall take those that call themselves Aiel and spill their blood and so forth, not that the remnant of a remnant is of 'those that call themselves Aiel'.

 

 

[benr]

I know that Rand is trying desperately to avoid a breaking of the world this time, but is it possible that the breaking could be visited upon the Waste, destroying all Aiel that stayed (which would take care of most of the Shaido, as they are returning there), leaving the small number that survive TG as the remnant?  I think Luckers' description most likely, though - the use of "remnant of a remnant" is such a perfect example of the unreliability of many of the prophecies.

[trakand_01]

It doesn't say that though--it says that he shall take those that call themselves Aiel and spill their blood and so forth, not that the remnant of a remnant is of 'those that call themselves Aiel'.

 

 

 

I may have gotten myself confused but... 'remnant of a remnant'... if it's NOT referring to the modern Aiel, it could mean the tuatha'an?

 

If all Aiel were Tinkers, and it's NOT the ones who call themselves Aiel, then it must be the remnant of what they once WERE - Tinkers. Seeing as what we know of as 'Aiel' are 'those who call themselves Aiel'?

[Luckers]

No, it is referring to modern Aiel. Those that currently call themselves Aiel.

 

 

[trakand_01]

But in your last post you said that it was not 'those who call themselves aiel' who would be saved - they are not the remnant of the remnant. So who are the remnant? If all Aiel were Tinkers surely the Tinkers are the remnant?

[aussie_ashaman123]

it could very well be the Shaido was shall be saved, but the rest of the Aiel will change to something else, siswai'aman most likely, or will openly refer to themselves as the People of the Dragon.

 

Besides, the numbers are very little, a remnant of a remnant, may be 1, 10 or even 50% of the population

[RAND AL THOR]

Agreed with luckers.

 

" HE SHALL SPILL OUT THE BLOOD OF THOSE THAT CALL THEMSELVES AIEL"

This must refer to the modern Aiel-since they are not really Aiel as they do not follow the Way of the Leaf.

 

"YET THE REMNANT OF A REMNANT SHALL HE SAVE AND THEY SHALL LIVE"

 

It is unclear whether the 'THEY'in the above line means the modern day Aiel. If the remnant doesnt refer to the modern Aiel, then why put the word: YET ?

If the remnant is the tinkers, then the word 'YET' would make little sense here since the first line is about the modern day Aiel.

 

RJ sure made interesting riddles eh? ;D

[trakand_01]

where does Aviendha stand here? considering Rand is at least half aiel, could her quadruplets be the remnant of the remnant?

 

Would it be concievable that the 'oddness' that Min saw about the children is that they are the sole survivors of the Aiel race or the 'remnant'?

 

How they'd progress the race though, I dont know because that would be incest and even Rand would stop if Elayne was Tigraine's daughter!

 

 

RJ sure made interesting riddles eh? ;D

 

I bet his Will was a bugger to read.

[Luckers]

But in your last post you said that it was not 'those who call themselves aiel' who would be saved - they are not the remnant of the remnant. So who are the remnant? If all Aiel were Tinkers surely the Tinkers are the remnant?

 

Sorry, what I was saying was that the remnant of the remnant does not begin with the modern Aiel, it begins with the Da'shain.

 

So we have the Da'shain Aiel, then they go through the breaking and change, and we have a remnant of the Da'shain, modern Aiel. Then along comes Rand and Tarmon Gai'don and again we have change, and we have a further remnant.. a remnant of the remnant of the Da'shain.

 

But it definately involves the modern Aiel, not the Tinkers.  He spills the blood of 'those that call themselves Aiel' in the same sentence that he saves 'the remnant of a remnant'. It doesn't mean that the remnant of a remnant is of the current Aiel, but it definately involves them as one of the steps.

[RAND AL THOR]

Right-o yet again luckers.

It seems unlikely that Aviendha's kids would be the least remaining Aiel. I'm sure RJ wouldnt do something like that.

 

Furthermore, what are the origins of the tinkers? Are they directly descended from the Da'shain or are they wetlanders who took up the way of the leaf? I'm confused there.

[trakand_01]

I may be confused myself but I understood (perhaps incorrectly) that the Tuatha'an were Dai'shan who didnt take up the spear - that the Dai'shan split and became modern-day Aiel and Tuatha'an.

[aussie_ashaman123]

the tuatha'an were the original split in the dai'shan, they went off to find the song while the rest guarded the ter'angreal and stuff. Over the years the tinkers have new genes added from new converts, which is why they like so different to the Aiel.

 

And the Jendai prophecies cannot mean the tinkers, coz they do not call themselves Aiel.