Graendal's strength

[Charlz Guybon]

 

You can make some guesses based on the different amount of times women spend as novices and Accepted, and we know it's different times for many of them.  But strength in the power isn't the only factor in becoming Aes Sedai, even if they place too much importance on it.  Some women who take a long time before the test may have the strength necessary, but haven't developed the skill to make complex weaves that are present in the test for the shawl.

I am under the impression that strong women not only can handle more power than weak women but can see and manipulate finer details/threads of the power than weak women. Is this not the case?

[bRANDan]

I am under the impression that strong women not only can handle more power than weak women but can see and manipulate finer details/threads of the power than weak women. Is this not the case?

 

I think that has more to do with one's talents with the power. There is a maximum strength for each person, but I think that speed and dexterity have more to do with the amount of natural talent and skill from practice one has. Obviously each person has their own maximum speed and level of dexterity, but I don't think strength plays a role in this. You can be really strong but if you have no natural talent or practice you won't be very dexterous.

[aevogt]

I think it's more to do with latent ability than practice.

 

In TSR, we see Rand melt down the gold and silver statues and weave them into fabric.  It was certainly not something he had ever done before, so it his skill can't be based on practice, yet he did something that seems incredibly complex with no apparent effort. 

 

You're either strong, fast and nimble, or you're not. 

 

We do see the girls in NS practicing the the test for the shawl, yet they are not practicing dexterity or speed or skill, they are practicing to channel and remain absolutely calm at the same time, which is why Eladia's actions were tantamount to cheating. 

 

I'd say that strength inthe power also translates to skill and dexterity.

[Darian]

yet with all of Graendal's strength and power, she still havent managed to participate in an active role of supporting the shadow unlike the other chosen has.  the only thing she has managed to establish was her retreat in arad domain, or unless, being the great manipulator, she might be planning something very ominous and complicated as her weaves of compulsion?  it seems with her ability, she could have turned everyone against rand without much trouble; Graendal is more troublesome than the others it seems.  she has a combination of Moghedian's stealth and possibly a mirror of sammel's emotion plus her intelligence.

[bRANDan]

I'd say that strength inthe power also translates to skill and dexterity.

 

Then what about Sorilea. If strength translates into skill and dexterity she should not be able to form the traveling weave. She is not strong enough to make the gateway work, but she still handles the flows deftly. If dexterity was dependant of strength then Sorilea should hardly be able to do anything besides make miniature clubs of Air with the power.

[trakand_01]

Also as I understand it, Aviendha and Elayne are roughly of a strength in the power, but Aviendha can unpick a weave with skill and alacrity, whilst Elayne failed to unpick the gateway from the Farm with near-disastrous consequences.

[Charlz Guybon]

yet with all of Graendal's strength and power, she still havent managed to participate in an active role of supporting the shadow unlike the other chosen has.  the only thing she has managed to establish was her retreat in arad domain, or unless, being the great manipulator, she might be planning something very ominous and complicated as her weaves of compulsion?  it seems with her ability, she could have turned everyone against rand without much trouble; Graendal is more troublesome than the others it seems.  she has a combination of Moghedian's stealth and possibly a mirror of sammel's emotion plus her intelligence.

She killed Asmodean.

[Charlz Guybon]

Also as I understand it, Aviendha and Elayne are roughly of a strength in the power, but Aviendha can unpick a weave with skill and alacrity, whilst Elayne failed to unpick the gateway from the Farm with near-disastrous consequences.

Elayne had never done it before, and the weave was very large and complex. Aviendha started practicing on small simple tangles that were not dangerous. It's a testament to Elayne's skill that she did as well as she did.

[balefireruinssteaks]

skill and dexterity might be inherant traits of a channeler, but practice makes these things available as well.  You can see that in some of the Kin such as Sumeko who isn't as strong as Elayne but can weave Healing more deftly than Nyneave can.  And also when Nyn and Elayne first encounter the Kin, someone of substantially low strength in the Power held Nyneave shielded by bending and flexing the shield...obviously something that required skill and dexterity despite her low strength level.

 

I just think that some channelers can handle more of the One Power and accomplish more but each channeler could learn the weave...if not make it work (i.e. Sorilea knows the weave for Traveling but can't make it work; but she can teach it to other people who can channel)

[Luckers]

The question I have to ask is this.  Would Rahvin lie to himself.  Would he delude himself into thinking that he could take her if he couldn't.  That would be dangerous.  He might SAY it, if it wasn't true, but not think it.  RJ's characters don't do that. 

 

But they do, RJ himself stated as much. Its not really concious, like bragging, its more a matter of ego and hubris.

 

The thing is, for Moghedien's comment to mean what Luckers says it does, Moghedien would have to know how strong Rahvin is. Does she? I have no idea. And who says she is not deluded about her own strength vs. Rahvin's? If, in the dozens of years the Forsaken have known each other it's still hard to assess one woman against another woman, isn't it going to be harder to assess a woman against a man?

 

I was always open about that reality. I stated in the beginning merely as a side point that Moghedian believed that she was as strong, or stronger than Rahvin. My actual point this whole time is merely that we don't actually know where Moghedian stands in comparison to the other Forsaken--she could well be stronger than Semirhage and Mesaana.

 

That being said, i place slightly more belief in Moghedian's comment because it involves a third person--Nynaeve. It's a step--a slight step--away from her own ego. In much the same line i place more belief in Rahvin being as strong as Sammael because of his unwilling inclusion of the man in the comparison to Lanfear, than in the actual comparison he made, that he was stronger than Lanfear.

 

I don't have the book with me, but I do remember something like this: "Rahvin was strong, perhaps as strong as Rand, but he didn't have an angreal/but Rand had an angreal, and it had proved enough to harry him."

 

 

Something along those lines. That to me indicated Rand comparing their strength in the One Power, I see nothing related to T'A'R. But I could be wrong, if anyone has tFoH they could check.

 

Remember that men sense little of another mans channeling unless in casual close proximity. Rand was judging based on the degree of his attacks--hence the 'perhaps'. Thats why TAR is an influence on those comments.

 

And honestly, it can be misleading when you say that Nynaeve had been channeling for ten years. Technically it's true, but her control was sporadic at best, and nothing conscious. Siuan was able to shield her when she was already holding saidar.

 

In what way is it misleading? At that time Nynaeve was exactly even in strength with Suian (Moiraine states this a couple of chapters earlier) so of course Suian can shield her, but beyond that it took Suian and Moiraine roughly ten years to attain their strength, so Nynaeve's ten years of channeling, sporadic or not, has resulted in a relatively normal progression of strength attainment. It was only in situations following her conciously learning to channel that she was forced.

 

So, like Rand, forced, but forced from a position of ten years channeling. She is equal with Suian before it even begins. I don't see how i was at all misleading.